Hi to all,
I believe that Adventure Games can stand out as an art form on its own.
Movies, literature and music, allowed many people to talk about human condition apart from the 'main scene' industrial business and my question is:
- do you think adventure games are a good way to show artistic, deep issues, social and sexual differences?
- do you think we (amateur producers) should only focus on pure entertaining games?
We were all driven here by MI and the rest of those great games,
-are we here because we want to make more MI games?
-are we ready to evolve and skip into a different genre?
Sex sells and gets people attention,
-will adventure games persist if sex is added like in movies?
-what about racism, homophobia, drugs?
I think adventure games (for me) are just an extension of me. I make the games I want to make ... and for me, I like a serious line, with comedy interjected.
To answer the deeper question you ask ...
I don't think that making them more serious would help the genre. At least not a 2D (psuedo 3D) adventure game. The sad reality (as I see it) is that we are now in the 3D world. I think there's a market for adventure games sure (as the genre still is appealing) but to be commercially viable (mainstream) I just don't see making them more serious as a way to put them on the shelves of Best Buy.
I have been wanting to make FPS type environment, but Adventure game-play style game for years (even started on it a few years back with the HL2 engine) but I think the modern trend is "if I'm not running and gunning I'm not interested". I think the "pace" of adventure games just doesn't sit well with today's gamers.
Well as I see it, most entertain themselves with making the games. And people, who find serious matters entertaining are scarce. I don't think Adventure games *should* be anything else than what they are, but they sure do provide good grounds to many different ways.
I started a project once, which was completely about the political issues of the Congolese presidential elections, with of course an entertaining side ot it, but mostly about the political issues mainstream media doesn't tell. It was about corruption, I've got some 2-3 bgs ready, 6 characters and most of the plot, and whoel map and stuff. But the thing is, the occurances int he world were much faster than I was, and everything happened already, so a realtime political adventure about real life events would have been a looking back to the history had I ever finished it.
But consider makig a game on something that is hip atm, like environmental issues. You'll most probably get a lot of good feedback, but also people who don't think like you, and will point it out. Also, adventure games are very graphical games, so basically things like violence and sex are pretty hard to approach, at least in a convincing serious manner. Most will just look humorous. It's not about making it serious but people seeing it as serious or just something not made as a joke. The people that are the main audience to computer games are really not the ones to play games for learning/civiliziting reasons, but for entertainment. Or that's how I see it. Of course, a good, interesting game, with a brief story in the end about reality would be a splendid way, and in my case, very welcome too!
Quote from: miguel on Wed 11/06/2008 15:11:23
- do you think adventure games are a good way to show artistic, deep issues, social and sexual differences?
- do you think we (amateur producers) should only focus on pure entertaining games?
I don't think you should be separating those into two disjoint categories. Games should definitely be about pure entertaining. Doesn't mean they can't be about something else. Although personally, I dislike the idea of using computer games (or books, or movies) to push an agenda, no matter how well intentioned. There is nothing crude or lowly about making a game for the sake of making a game (as opposed to making a point).
It'd be interesting to see the day when the M sign in the corner means you have to be a certain age to appreciate the game (as opposed to meaning that you'll see blood and guts and boobies), but I don't see that time coming soon. And those sort of games probably wouldn't sell well, either.
Quote from: Tuomas on Wed 11/06/2008 15:33:04I don't think Adventure games *should* be anything else than what they are
Exactly. And what they are depends on who you - the game maker - are. Of course adventures can be very serious, dealing with political and social issues, if YOU are interested in such things and want to put them in your game. Same thing with sexuality, crime, drugs etc. You should always do what interests YOU and what you find important, otherwise the game wouldn't be 'original', but more like mainstream-games who are supposed to please the mass.
As for me I wouldn't even consider making an adventure if I wouldn't have artistic skills. I'm drawing, I'm writing and making an adventure is just another genre of art I'm currently experimenting with. And it doesn't matter if I draw or write or make a game it always expresses myself to a certain point. The topics and the settings I choose aren't just coming from nowhere. And I really just make the game for myself. This should not be misunderstood as some sort of selfishness: I'd be happy if people like my game. But it's also okay if they don't, I don't make it for them or anybody. I just make it like I just draw or write something.
-> It's the people themselves who make the game interesting respectively the differences of the adventures who basically depend on their makers is what makes the genre interesting.
-> The opposite is making games for an audience as great as possible just to sell it or something...
-> I don't think adventures should be serious as well as I don't want aventures to be funny in general. Everything is great as long as it is original and creative or just entertaining.
Thanks for the answers guys.
When I got into contact with adventure games, my first one was "The Hobbit" on a ZX Spectrum, I thought of adventure games as the "alternative" way of gaming experience. It was realy different from anything I was playing at that time.
It allowed me to think, not only react to things on the screen, but to think about what my actions could interfere on the game world.
A game named "The Fish" was just amazing with lots of possibilities of interaction with the software.
All those great text parser adventures got better technically but they were most of the time based on well written books.
It had a good quality about it, you were being entertained while reading.
When graphical adventures came in, apart from the classic ones (MI,KQ,etc...) the genre turned into a business that filled the market with bad stories and buggy interfaces.
Also, the "independent" mood was lost forever.
I think we should keep that alternative way of playing games alive.
Adventure Games can be the Cannes of games.
- do you think adventure games are a good way to show artistic, deep issues, social and sexual differences?
Adventure Games talk 'bout this issues the great part of time,
- do you think we (amateur producers) should only focus on pure entertaining games?
There is no reason to play a boring game. A boring game is not a game. The definition of game is to entertain.
-are we here because we want to make more MI games?
Normally the Lucasarts games bored me the half of time. Lucas games are good, but well, I think they die after MI2 and Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis. (I HATE sam & max games xD)
But Grim Fandango was Great also, and is far from make a comparative with MI
-are we ready to evolve and skip into a different genre?
People make RPGs, pseudoaction games, only-talk games, comercial simulation games, RTS games... isn't enougth?
-will adventure games persist if sex is added like in movies?
I don't understand the question. There is or isn't sex in adventure games? 'Cause they're alot of adventere games with sex and without, as First objetive or complementary.
-what about racism, homophobia, drugs?
You played Roccio's Quest? xDDD But, in comercial games, there's is a lot of games talking about this things. See adventure catalog far from the classics.
About the seriosity
Dreamfall, The Dig, Prisioner of Ice, Even Broken Sword....
And a lot of haves have a serious plot but with some humor inside. Althougth, Isn't the life serious and funny at the same time? Isn't the way the people can survive to the hard world?...
Thanks for answering my questions Alarconte,
I agree with most of what you said, but I do buy new games ( Adventure Games and Fotball Manager games only) and I think that the producers approach on 90% of those games is "Hollywood" like, do you get what I am saying?
The kind of approach hofmeier did with his game is totally different from that, it's almost interactive art, it's a new way of representing reality and I can see humour in it as well, only it is different, it is not in your face.
Like, you mentioned Broken Sword to be a 'serious' game, but really, I think that it is very juvenile and the 3rd part was more of the same with better graphics. Dreamfall was a beautiful game, but very romanticised, I really do not get to play a game that makes me feel like the adult I am.
Drugs, sex and other controversial issues are not dealt on adventure games, Alarconte, not the way movies, literature or music do, anyway.
hope we can continue this debate, and thanks for your answer.
I am more into serious games, so my answer is yes. I am sick of those wannabe Monkey Island clones... its just so unoriginal. All there seems to be in AGS community are games with some random thing, which is supposed to be humorous, a shitty sequel to some classic or some idiotic parody... No serious games...
However, a serious game should be serious, not some overhyped fear game, that has same sounds and same kind of 'creepy' graphics all over, like blood on every god damn wall...
A serious game should be real.
I was already under the impression that most reasonably recent commercial adventure games seem to be much more serious than the "golden age" classics. Just take a gander at this listing (http://adventureshop.gamesplanet.com/EU/) and count the serious-to-comedy ratio. I'd say it rests quite heavily on the serious side.
It is true that most game industry wannabes seem to produce MI clones of some sort, but maybe the reason is that a serious game needs a good plot and quite a bit of work on the design side to be well received, whereas light comedy can be quite successfully produced with the unrelated jokes approach, as evidenced by many popular comedy movies and sitcoms.
Personally I prefer well written comedy over any other genre in both games and movies.
Hi tube,
thanks for answering,
yes I agree with you, many titles this days go for a more mature audience,
but what about the alternative side of art? Like, say, a inddie adventure game style?
Do I make sense at all?
thanks
Including drugs,sex and violence because you can isn't serious it is childish and a cheap trick to gain a audience,but excluding them even if your story could gain something from this elements is childish too.
Quote from: Andorxor on Sat 14/06/2008 20:49:26
Including drugs,sex and violence because you can isn't serious it is childish and a cheap trick to gain a audience,but excluding them even if your story could gain something from this elements is childish too.
That is not the issue here, Andorxor,
writers and/or movie producers have included sex sequences on their work to increase audience interest as far as modern life exists as humans are driven by sex, drugs and some rock&roll. If that adds on the quality of the product is another question, it may do, or not. And I never said people should include it on their games. I've asked IF it would be a proper thing to do.
Excluding sex from any art form sometimes has to do with the audience it is meant for. Sometimes the author does not want/is not allowed to show explicit behaviours.
thanks for answering, Andorxor, and I hope we can continue this debate
I'm not sure I see what you're getting at. Sure, in some art forms (TV and mainstream cinema, most prominently), authors are sometimes restricted in what they can show. But that's not the case for AGS games. Game creators can make exactly the games they want, virtually without limitations. And whether or not it will be entered into the annals of RON, or listed in the AGS games database, or whatever, you'll still be able to put it out there.
If adventure game creators want to tackle more controversial issues, they will. If players want to play the resulting games, they will.
Personally, I wouldn't want to tell people making free, homemade games that they should do this or that. Only: They should make whatever games they feel like making. I think it would be great to see some more thematic ambition and originality among new AGS games, but just like not every book ought to be, you know, Crime and Punishment, and like there is room on television for both The Wire and Family Guy, I would hope "more serious" adventure games wouldn't be at the expense of silly, inconsequential or childish ones.
Would this kind of stuff revive, or at least raise the profile of, mainstream adventure games? Eh, probably not. Sex and drugs are hardly going to cause much of a public uproar, much less lead to any kind of artistic renaissance. But it's worth noting that The Shivah got more press than pretty much any other AGS game, mostly for all those sexy Rabbis. Going just a little bit outside of the conventional acn create a lot of interest.
Yes, the Shivah or anything with Rabbis will turn people on. :=
Well, I guess I got pretty much the answers I wanted and I believe this thread had a lot of interesting parts.
I just think that adventure games are powerful enough to be a consistent art form.
Through the forums I see many, many people with lots of talent and ideas.
Thanks everybody
(deleted)
Well said, hof. Specifically that eloquent last sentence. :P
But yeah, what hof said. Rather than being a hindrance, Being low/no budget can be a boon to innovation and unique (and important) storytelling. And I'm all for stories that deal with issues that the mainstream developers would shy away from.
That said, there's sometimes a fine line (and sometimes a huge difference) between dealing with a difficult issue and being an asshole (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/games.php?action=detail&id=875). So let's be careful.
Hi Vince,
the "asshole" link didn't allow me to download anything, I guess because it has nothing to download.
Those guys should ask for it to be removed because it's not even funny.
-----------------------------
Perhaps I should have linked here: http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=30454.0
You can still download my parody of it, and imagine what the original was like.
I think a better question is 'should there be more serious adventure games?'
I think the answer to THAT one is yes. People should be moving adventure games in any direction which is currently lacking. That's how a genre grows and develops.
Take Interactive Fiction, for example - that's grown from the simple dungeon hacking of the early days to all sorts of different styles. Every time someone produces a text game that genuinely surprises or makes someone feel something they haven't felt with an IF game before, that gives the player more reasons to keep partaking in the artform.
Currently, the indie graphic adventure community is has a lot of spoofs, tribute-games and titles that try to recapture the humour of someone's favourite adventure of old. That's fine! We all like nostalgia, but relying on nostalgia alone is almost like admitting the genre is dead.
We should, and I think we DO encourage adventure games which try something different, and creating a deliberately and uniquely serious game is one way of doing that.
However, I don't think it is necessarily a goal that designers SHOULD be aspiring to. It's just one of many options. Nor should a designer entirely shun their influences. If Monkey Island is the adventure game you're most inspired by, then it's absolutely okay for the influence of that game to creep into your own, as long as that influence doesn't amount to plagiarism.
Just as someone is rarely funny if their attitude screams 'hey, look at me, aren't I funny?' the same is true about seriousness. If you try too hard, it just looks pretentious. The key is to find the style that fits your own personality best, a personality that may have a vast array of influences, but should also be able to bring something fresh and new. As good stage improvisers know, the best and 'cleverest' ideas never come from the person who is desperately trying to be the best or the cleverest.
Insofox: I agree with you there.
VinceTwelve: I still could not download, neither your version, but from reading that thread I got the idea of the game's quality. I guess it is a good example of what not to do with adventure games.
It depends what you mean by serious. If you mean 'down-to-earth' as opposed to the wild antics of MI or DoTT then I would personally say yes. Most of the time I find the best humour actually comes from serious stories and situations. I hate things which are ingratiatingly 'zany'. However, going the other way can be bad too -- like someone said previously, being too 'dark and gritty and real' can just become obnoxious. It's good to a point, but after a while you just start to think "c'mon, real life isn't that moody/dark/depressing/melodramatic..."
Take The Longest Journey for example -- there were always these humourous undertones (most of Crow's and Flipper's lines were gold, as well as the social commentaries), and there was plenty of bizarre stuff -- but it also had a solid, atmospheric story and a brilliant way of capturing your imagination. It was just serious enough to make it seem real, but light enough to make it fun.
Now take Fahrenheit -- the first half of the game was brilliant because it was about real people having their real lives affected by this odd mystery. It was serious, and suspenseful and all that, but in a somewhat lax way (like in real-life... everything's less dramatic in real life). Then, the real people turn superhuman, the mystery disintegrates into bullshitery, and the emotional 'glue' that held the whole thing together just fizzled away, causing it all to fall apart in the second half.
I guess what I'm trying to say in all this is that emotional seriousness is far more important than th).ematic seriousness. I reckon you could have the most ridiculous premise ever, but if the characters are believable, then the story will be (to take another example, Jaws)
I urge each and every person who has not played The Last Express to do so. It is a perfect example of what adventure games - as an art form - should be.
Heres my opinion.
ALL games should become more serious. In order for video games to be more serious, designers (mainly commercial game designers) will have to start thinking serious with serious subjects. (drugs, love, sex, life, death etc). Video gamers will have to start appreciating and buying serious forms of games.
That is the only way I can see video games in general, start to become a full-on, artform. I don't see why its bad to have drugs in a video game, as long as it actually contributes to the story. (I yet have to wait for a game with a character that constantly uses drugs, in order to keep him sane and calm)
Do I think Adventure Games should be more serious? Yes and No. I feel adventure games have reached a certain peak of seriousness already, in terms of aesthetics, story, character depth(some games aren't so good with that). Its like an FPS....with all there amazing graphics, amazing character models, amazing gun play and AI, you'd expect the story to push boundaries, have a moral (like The Matrix, or recently the Iron Man movie which had some slight anti-war themes). All FPS games have the unlimited capability to create a stunning story and make-you-think story....but most of them continue to be about World War 2, Apocalyptic Destruction, Aliens, and Zombies and monsters. Adventure games are the same.
Seeing a Medieval Type Adventure Game bores the crap out of me. Didn't they make those games like, fifteen years ago?
More Games should start tinkering with new ideas, surrealism, comedy, black comedy, philosophy, and unconventional gameplay ideas and off-beat ideas.
The last thing that I believe should be added in games is a moral of a story. Most games that I play, FPS, Adventure Games, RPG stuff...all tend to leave me empty by the end of the game. Video games have merely become "Square One is the starting point, reach Square Ten to finish the game." By the time the game ends, it doesn't leave me thinking about the game, and why I had the motive to play the game in the first place, and complete it.
Story in my opinion makes interaction of a game more unique compared to how a movie delivers a story. In a game, you can search for the story yourself (talking to characters, learning more about history and story) In a movie, the story is layed out in front of you. Which is, in my opinion, makes Games (especially Adventure and Adventure-Influenced games).
Honestly though, I'm so glad AGS EXISTS. I have many ideas that I've always wanted to create. I've learnt so much about AGS recently, and that my vision for a video game is slowly coming closer to reality.
I really don't know what my opinion is on that matter. I like serious games as much as the next guy but if Portal proves us anything, is that you don't have to discuss about sex, love, drug, life and death to be successful, well written games that mesh with innovative gameplay mechanics are still awesome. Also, a lot of scifi novels discuss about serious subjects or philosophy, you don't need a modern days setting to do that.
Indie adventure games' graphics, musics and writing have been pushed as far as what Sierra, LucasArts and the other giants offered in the golden days of adventure games. Before we move the story aspect to the next level, I'd rather if we moved gameplay to the next level, by designing new ways to solve puzzles (not unlike what Dave Gilbert did with The Shivah), trying new verbs and interfaces (not unlike Loom and Full Throttle), blending genres a bit or by trying completly new things (Uplink, Portal, Penumbra...), because if the folder with 50+ unplayed indie adventure games that is located on my hard drive tell me something, it's that after 6 years of indie adventure games, I'm tired to be fed stories bundled with gameplay mechanics that haven't evolved a single bit since Monkey Island 2 (and sometimes with no gameplay mechanics at all), save for a few exceptions, which remains what they are, exceptions.
There's nothing wrong in making a traditionnal point and click adventure game that play just like Monkey Island, but if all that is done is traditionnal point and click adventure games that introduce nothing new gameplay speaking, this genre will never go anywhere.
More importantly, adventure games are about using your gray matter and creativity in order to overcome problems and situations, if we can find new ways to replace or reduce this "item on other things", "clue collecting" and "dialogue tree" gameplay mechanics, with mechanics that still require gray matter and creativity rather than reflexes, we'll open up new story possibilities that were incompatible, or didn't fit well with only "item on other things", "clue collecting" and "dialogue tree" mechanics.
:-\ You make some interesting points. I personally LOVE to play Adventure Games. They remind me somewhat of the classic Choose-Your-Own-Adventure Books etc of the 80's.
Like other genres of video games (and movies too!), there should be Adventure Games with ESRB Ratings on them to warn parents and sensitive gamers if the games have brutal violence, mature content, nudity, disturbing scenes, etc.
Personally, I don't enjoy playing brutally violent or vulgar games, however, I do enjoy a thrilling Adventure Game where the hero embarks on a dangerous journey where one false move good mean his/her death. I don't fully enjoy adventure games where there is no real sense of danger, sorry. I love the thrill of knowing that hazards are "real", so to speak. The occasional battle is nice. Something like the Indiana Jones Adventures, King's Quest, or Ben Jordan etc...
I'd like to see more serious games, but I don't like the word "should" in your question.
Inspiration is what it is. When forced, it is not inspiration anymore but commanded creativity.
The maker defines the character of a game. Anything that is out of character is badly made, if you ask me. games are not an exception.
I think the genre lends itself to more lighthearted gameplay than others, probably in part due to the laid-back nature of item collection and puzzle solving. There's no reason to impose a specific tone for adventure games, though. There are plenty of serious games out there, both commercial and freeware.
Similar to what you guys are saying... :)
There should be no hard and fast rules for Adventure Games.
1. If the Game Creator wants a Family Friendly Puzzle Adventure, that's fine.
2. If the Game Creator wants a Thrilling Danger Filled Quest, that's good as well.
3. If the Game Creator wants an Adventure Game for Mature-Adult Audiences, that's his/her right.
All I'm saying, there should be special Game Ratings for each kind to warn parents and sensitive Gamers.
And, from the list above, I prefer #2.
;)
It depends what you mean by 'serious'... if you mean 'attempting to tackle mature and difficult issues (such as racism, drugs and the rest)' then I don't think adventure games are really the best way to address those kind of things. Games that try to do that end up looking like they were made for 'Channel 4 Schools', or those pathetic 'Social Education' classes we had to have in school where they taught us how to put a condom over a test tube.
But if by 'serious' you mean 'isn't childish' then I think there are already plenty of games that do that, and these are my favourite kind of games, but sometimes it's nice to relapse into chilishness... I mean it's the nostalgia for primarily childish games that brought most of us here in the first place ;)
Heh. Ditto man. If I want a lecture on "serious" things like that, I'll google up a website, Wikipedia or go to a Library. Personally, I play Adventure Games, to escape from reality, not experience it better! LOL!
Less politically correct I say! More adult audience (and I don't really mean porn here)!
KGB is most serious, and therefore best - adventure game, ever.
Quoteif you mean 'attempting to tackle mature and difficult issues (such as racism, drugs and the rest)' then I don't think adventure games are really the best way to address those kind of things.
Adventure games are more or less interactive novels. Why couldn't be content as various as in novels?
A story is a story. A book is a book. There could be anything written there. How is adventure game SO different?
And what could be BETTER way to address "those kind of things"?! A RPG or shooter or fighter where immense is broken when player delivers his attention to stats or equipment or damage bars instead of diving into plot?
Or... what else? I really don't understand this. What could ever work better than adventure genre?
All we get is one kids' game after another. Or a horror game that's still too childish. Blood & gore doesn't make things mature, despite what rating givers say. Ideas do.
About news and wiki: This is simply personal preference. Games could be about ALL kind of things, crossing nothing out because "there's too much of it on tv". It's more like your pick which mood you like in your game. I personally would trade one "tv-thing" call of duty 4 for hundreds of other non-modern-setting games. Simply because I saw MP5 submachine gun on TV, never really held one, and plasma blasters & rocket launchers of other games simply leave me bored. Some people DO like reality.
And keeping drugs/etc in or out of the game... Honestly, I don't give a shit. I leave parenting (and choosing games for kids) to actual parents and would be really happy if they'd keep the f**k out of video game making, in return. I decide what I put into my game, and if someone sees it dangerous, well, don't play it.
Totally agree with InCreator there.
I would love to see a political game - why does it all have to be sf and non-realistic detective settings?
About political games overall (not adventure) -- the situation is hopeless. I play Shadow President, Hidden Agenda and Conflict: Middle East Political Simulator - all games pre-windows era, and quietly cry. For last 10 years. (If you ever wanted a hint on politics sim, I just named gold... and they're abandonware)
Nobody haven't made a decent political game in a decade. Revolution:Republic was total suckage, I won't even start on this dumb US election game of this year, and Supreme Ruler is a mix of non-existing gameplay and really bad JPG of world satellite map. There is some good games of historic eras but none of ours.
There is no realistic, yet enjoyable political games besides first three I named.
Unless I make one, there won't probably be one.
It doesn't have to be a political simulator - all it needs is to have some political rhetoric in the narrative. Take Beneath a Steel Sky, for instance - it's a serious, mature game, it makes statements on class relations, environmental issues, corporate capitalism, and other such topics, and is above all an enjoyable, engaging game.
Humor and maturity are absolutely compatible. I would love to see more games make interesting, progressive statements about social and political issues, and I think most other gamers would, too, as long as the points aren't made with sledgehammers.
QuoteAdventure games are more or less interactive novels. Why couldn't be content as various as in novels?
A story is a story. A book is a book. There could be anything written there. How is adventure game SO different?
And what could be BETTER way to address "those kind of things"?! A RPG or shooter or fighter where immense is broken when player delivers his attention to stats or equipment or damage bars instead of diving into plot?
Or... what else? I really don't understand this. What could ever work better than adventure genre?
QuoteTotally agree with InCreator there.
I would love to see a political game - why does it all have to be sf and non-realistic detective settings?
First, you are confusing adventure games with visual novels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_novels). Adventure games aren't interactive stories. Adventure games are a blending of puzzle solving and stories telling. You talk about immersion, but tell me, how would adventure game genre, in its current state, with its puzzles that stick out of nowhere, dialogue puzzles, fetch quests, downtime when you are stuck and what not would be any different from action or RPG genre, tell me.
You talk about immersion but if most adventure games nowaday have unserious, comical or investigative stories that's because the current puzzle solving gameplay mechanics blend more in that kind of stories, just like the mechanics of RTS or FPS blend more to action, war or violent stories. Games aren't books. In a game, the story and the gameplay must go hand in hand.
I am tired of this self brainwashing that the adventure game community in general did to itself in the last decade by repeating the magical sentences that "Adventure games are interactive stories", "Adventure games tell stories" or "If it tell a story, it's an adventure game" in a vain attempt that it become the definition of an adventure game. Do adventure games have the monopoly on featuring interactive stories? Last I checked the magical "interactive/telling stories" definition also applied to RPG, it also applied to recent years FPS, it also applied to countless of other games in countless other genres. Adventure games are not interactive stories, they're a blending of puzzle solving and stories telling, they're games where you use your brain to overcome the various problems you are facing and progress in the story.
If adventure games were about telling stories, why the heck did they add all those puzzles to the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy game, why not just take the book and add interactions to it? If adventure games is the best genre to tell stories, where are the full blown action, violent or war stories? Has it ever occured to someone that "use gun on guy", "use gun on other guy" is probably the stupidest puzzle out there? You don't see that kind of stories because adventure games have this whole puzzle solving aspect which totally conflict with the story itself. The mere fact that lot of stories cannot be told in adventure games because they conflict directly with the current gameplay mechanics should be enough to destroy that silly idea that adventure games are the best video games genre out there to tell stories.
Where has this brainwashing gotten us to? With all this emphasis on stories, character development, narration, people have completly forgotten or ignored the gameplay aspect of adventure games, that puzzle solving is still the bread and butter of adventure gaming. When was the last time you played Day of the Tentacle or Monkey Island 1 and 2 and paid attention to the brilliance of the hints and puzzles instead of the story? It's because we spend so little finding new puzzle solving mechanics that we're stuck in unserious, comical or investigative stories in the first place. If we want to move this genre forward, if we want to stop telling comical, unserious or investigative stories in adventure game, we need to update the puzzle mechanics, we need to find new way to present puzzles so they don't completly stand out like a tree in a field and so puzzles aren't completly stupid and unimaginative like "This object is out of reach", "This door is locked" or "I need to bake cookies for my dad, let's decypher my mom's recipe!" that generally involve keys, rocks, sticks, ropes, tools or following the police procedures.
That's the problem serious stories in adventure games are facing. Either the puzzles are imaginative and creative but completly stand out of the story and feel tacked on. Either the puzzles fit in the story but are so stupidly unimaginative they aren't fun at all to solve or just plain too easy. And in many cases, they're both unimaginative and completly stand out, like those Myst kind of contraptions used as a crutch to slow down the player progression or add some difficulty to the game. Heck, I played some indie "adventure" games where so much emphasis was put on the story that the games featured no puzzles at all. Is that were people want this genre to go to?
That's pretty much it. I could go on and point out how Full Throttle, with its special action verbs and its puzzles subtly hidden in its action sequences, is a shining example of how new puzzles mechanics would greatly improve the range of stories adventure games can tell, but I think I am spending far too much time voicing my opinion for a genre I barely play or care for anymore these days, plus I'm out of forum post typing juice.
I really don't see the point in this discussion, sorry. Why SHOULD adventure games be serious? Surely it's the player's choice when they buy/download a game as to whether or not they want to play a serious or funny game? There's a whole spectrum of games out there to choose from.
QuoteI really don't see the point in this discussion, sorry. Why SHOULD adventure games be serious? Surely it's the player's choice when they buy/download a game as to whether or not they want to play a serious or funny game? There's a whole spectrum of games out there to choose from.
The same could be said for the Cursor Confusion thread. It's not a useless discussion. The future of this genre rests in the hands of the game makers rather than the players, but I think we should be free to state our opinion on the current state of adventure games, what turn we hope the community will take next and what would be better for the genre, in hope it will inspire someone to try something different.
Also, this player's choice argument works for books, movies and other medias that actually have a whole spectrum to choose from but we don't swim in enough in serious games for this argument to apply. When it come to serious game, I can remember Passage (http://hcsoftware.sourceforge.net/passage/), Hush (http://www.indiegames.com/blog/2008/03/freeware_game_pick_hush_jamie.html), Virtual Silence (http://www.indiegames.com/blog/2008/06/freeware_game_pick_virtual_sil.html), Cloud (http://intihuatani.usc.edu/cloud/game.htm), The Graveyard (http://tale-of-tales.com/TheGraveyard/index.html)... that's pretty much it. The last one is not really a game and none of them are adventure games.
-----
I agree with you Darth Mandarb when you say"I make the games I want to make", but would elaborate, I'd only consider making a game that I'd personally want to play too. It doesn't really matter if it looks like MI or is something more serious.
When you're involved in producing a game commercially you have far more practical constraints on what you can do. In fact as it turns out you have very little creative freedom and never enough time to produce something that you're satisfied with. This is because because the man paying your wages is telling you what to do. His shareholders tell him what to do. Unless it's "financially viable" it just doesn't get produced no matter how original or creative your concept may be.
The commercial gaming world is just not as diverse as it used to be 15 years ago and is now pretty much owned lock stock and barrel by a few giant companies. With few exceptions (only Portal springs to mind recently) independently developed commercial games are few and far between. It didn't used to be this way but times have changed and diversity in gaming has been diminished away as a result. Big business discovered that vast amounts of money can be made churning out the same game over and over to adrenaline junkies and they will buy them because they are addicted. What is produced is dictated by sales figures, pure and simple.
Things are looking somewhat more optimistic recently with the success of Nintendo branching into the casual gaming market, and producing and supporting the production of a whole glut of games that do not pander to the generally recognised gamer demographic of a 16-25 year old male. However, true creativity will always come from gamers themselves not a bunch of suits sat around a board room table.
Places like this are so very important. Over the past two years played games from AGS that I'd consider to be far better than any adventure games currently available commercially. There is a wealth of imagination and talent here ;D I'm always telling people about it!
If people do not make games that they personally enjoy playing then where will diversity come from if not here and places like here?
Sadly there is no room for pure creativity in the world of commercial gaming. You're just expected to produce something hopefully bug free to a deadline, ship it then repeat.
I'd really like to produce my own game but I don't know if I'm brave enough yet, I'm a bit rusty. There's a game lurking inside me somewhere, but I just don't know if I should let it out :o
S
x
Thanks for all the answers guys,
I believe in adventure games to become something special, 4000 members here mean something and there is lots of quality around.
Everytime I download a new game I can see the genre grow to something different, I see a mix of genres to be born into something new.
You can also see that by looking at some of the art that recent AGS titles have. There is a new wave of artistic values coming into the scene. People that were only watching the classic game makers and their games are joining in and the overrall quality is higher.
We all miss those classic first AGS games, but we know that we will be only repeating the style if we continue to do it like that. The Classical Era is finished. Let us all welcome the new Era.
cheers