Advancements in the genre

[Pstonie]

I've just recently written another short article about the way that the adventure games genre is going. I also had a bit at the end about how this will affect the game I've been working on and I thought that someone here might find it interesting.

Yesterday Again

I also linked to some other short adventure-related updated that I've written.

[Damien]

...While the other, more accessible genres of yesteryear like FPSs have seen loads of new features with every new release...

What features? FPS haven't changed since Doom & Wolf. The main concept is till the same, grab a gun and shoot as many terrorists, zombies, aliens or whatever. The only thing that constantly change are graphics.

[Radiant]

One word. Descent.

[BOYD1981]

some more words: half-life, deus ex, call of duty, battlefield 1942...
those games are about more than picking up a gun and shooting everything that moves, i think it's mostly non-FPS fans that thing all FPS games are about just shooting everything, it's true that for much of the 90s they were just about shooting things and not much else, and there are FPS being made today that are about shooting first and making up answers later, but, it's what people like and want, and who can take that away from people? nobody.

- A Little Sentence about First Person Shooters, written by BOYD1981

[MrColossal]

yea but again, for every Half Life there are 100 standard run and gun FPS games. Just like with adventure games and with every genre.

There are so many adventure games out there even today there are a lot being made, they're just no worth it because they're usually crap.

I don't think one can use the best of a genre to say that the entire genre is moving forward. Even Doom 3 is totally stuck in the 90's in terms of gameplay [Honestly, are we not past the point of secret walls with 1 bad guy and nothing else in it? What the hell was he doing in there originally?]

So I guess by that rational no genre has really moved forward since it's creation, there have just been diamonds amongst all the crap that stick out.

However, since he said that the FPS genre has seen new "features" I want to know what do you mean by features?

On the back of a box a feature could be 3d surround sound or an original soundtrack or bump mapping.

"This has led to a string of unsuccessful commercial adventures" again what about all the unsuccessful everything? I don't think lack of features lead to bad adventure games but markets shifting and now the bad adventure games that would have come out anyway are the only adventure games and they get the press.

I'm going to stop before I say anything else stupid
eric

[Damien]

Most gamers would probably enjoy a crappy FPS with uber pixel shaded, antialiased graphics more than a beautifully drawn 2d adventure game with great atmosphere and storyline.

Also, I don't think that bump-mapping is avancement in a certain genre.

[jetxl]

I think developers got lay-z (or Ã, a lack of time). Remember the old text adventures with a million dialogs and options. In Syberia there was one remark when you clicked on a closed door "Lets not go down there".
Also, there is a lack of original games. It's all sequal, prequal,spin-off, based on a film/sport/cardgame/book. Wich is WEIRD, because developers need to be original writers that can think up new stuff. Where are the developers hiding?

Why is 2D better then 3D http://www.useit.com/alertbox/981115.html
(Ya know they're making a doom 3 movie. The Rock is going to be in it.)

[Damien]

Remember the old text adventures with a million dialogs and options.

I think that's because developers knew they can't do much with graphic, so they needed some other way to attract gamers. Probably the reason why older games had better playability.
Nowadays developers create a game in some kick ass engine and hope no one notices how crappy it actually is (with few exceptions).

[Pstonie]

Hey guys. Thanks for the feedback.

To address the issue of features, I didn't only mean stuff like improved graphics or sound. There has been quite significant improvements to pretty much everything that these games are composed of. This improved the immersion that you experience while playing which has made it overall a better gaming experience than what Doom was way back.

It all adds up to more freedom and reality in your gaming environment. Things are moving forward. It is quite hard to explain what has improved in non-adventure games unless the person you're explaining it to has sat down and played some modern games, which I recommend. All games have plots these days, and they are rated by quality, not just by the graphics or how many 'monsters' there are, which is a common adventurer belief.

On the adventure game front, however, things have been standing dead still and we're still using the same old formula for making the games that Sierra or LucasArts did. Obviously it's a lot harder changing things when one guy is making a game in their free time instead of a team working on something during work hours and getting paid for it, but at least an attempt could be made.

On the other hand, this is only my personal opinion. Maybe things should stay like they are forever. I just personally think that it would be nice to play something original every decade or so.

[bspeers100]

pstone, you can't just make claims and then say "that's just my opinion," and then go on to claim that you've written an article.  I dispute that "every" new FPS has had more new features than adventure games, and I dispute that new adventure games have not had new ideas.  The evidence just does not support your view:

New FPS's in the last couple years:

Unreal Tournament
Halo (2?)
Doom 3
Metroid
Theif 2/3 (I think it's 1st person)
Battlefield/Wolfenstien (the more recent one)

I suppose there have been others, but these are some that I have played.  I have also played a bad rip of the code of Half Life 2.  I am not counting 3rd person games, because they are by definition, *not* 1st person.

Unreal Tournament -- perhaps the inclusion of vehicles would count as a "new" feature, as far as FPS's go, and the numerous modes of play (like seige).  However, many older games also had vehicles (such as Goldeneye), as as for modes of play, I hardly think they constitute an innovation.  The multiplayer AI is kind of interesting but also not new.  Improved perhaps, but not new.

Halo had some nice locations, and a few nice vehicles, but again, little essentially different from UT.

Doom 3 had no significant innovations at all, in my opinion.  There was a plot and some interesting ways of collecting plot, but those ways were ultimately lazy and reliant on old ideas, ironically borrowed from Adventure games years ago.  The interface was improved slightly, with the usage of buttons, but that's so small and cosmetic it wouldn't really count in any other context.

Metroid and Theif were both innovative, but in Metroid, only insofar as it brought a 2d world into a 3d adventure more or less seamlessly, and thief in that it opened up the stealth genre.

Most of those WWII games are pretty similar, but I would also call them innovative in their approach.

I do not know about independent or underground FPS's, but I suspect they just just mods of the existing engines.  If there are more innovative FPS's in the general public, I would like to hear about it.

New Adventure Games in the last few years ae far more prominent in my mind, being part of the community (generally speaking), and although there are not a lot of commercial adventure games out there these days, the number of amature games has vastly increased.  Unlike FPS's, there have been massive innovations, such as playing animals and using an animals senses, using new guis and interfaces (all the FPS's I mentioned used the same GUI and interfaces), new ways of telling stories and narrative devices (such as memory, dream, etc--one area that 3rd person games have also developed lately, but that FPS's really haven't).

If you include action adventures, the number of new innovations is almost limitless.  I would count Hitman as an adventure game (using your gun is really not very effective most of the time), and it's combination of the stealth genre with new narrative devices and item quests is startling.  The new Larry game has some changes in it's approach, as does a very strange sounding upcoming "dating" adventure game called "Kimi no Tame Nara Shineru."  Also, if you read the post on innovative inventories, you can see many new ideas even for how information is processed.  Except perhaps for the little "tapes" in Doom 3, there is nothing similar in FPS's.  Unlike in Doom 3, the new ways of gaining information and creating puzzles could be actually integrated into the game, rather than making you listen just to find bonus items.

I don't hate FPS's, and I don't supremely adore adventure games (I like where RPG's are heading, personally), but your claims just don't stand up against the facts as I know them.  Maybe you can offer some evidence to challenge my rather verbose counter-claims, and I wouldn't be surprised if you did.  You have made some interesting claims, now it is time to defend them.  Please provide some evidence if you wish to discuss this further.

[n3tgraph]

aaah another nice nitpicking thread

my 2 cents anyoneeee?:

Okay here we go
I like both adventure games and FPS games a lot I have played loads of fps's (nowadays I don't do that so much anymore) and I have played loads of Adventures and I think that when you say that adventures aren't developing anymore and FPS's are, then I guess I should say that you are right, that is ofcourse because the amount of real adventure games released these days are minimal! And, even when they produce new adventures with new features like 3d and stuff they get spat out by every hardcore adventure gamer because the old feeling that we love so much is gone.

Anyway, the fact that the classic adventure game genre is standing still because the adventures made by ags-members (which you mentioned in your article there) are all amatures, and they can make old styled games with a very descent adventure game engine. Have you ever tried making a FPS? try it

If anything I just said is bullshit just sue me

[Pstonie]

How is it that a game that enables you to drive and pilot everything in the level does not qualify as one that has new features?

Let's not call artificial intelligence a feature, let's call it an improvement on something that was already there. The current artificial intelligence in some games are just brilliant, things have improved enormously.

If you include action adventures, the number of new innovations is almost limitless.

I don't. We're not including 3rd person games under the rickety blanket term 'FPS', are we?

--such as playing animals and using an animals senses--

I believe that Mixed Up Mother Goose has laid claim to that idea. I could be wrong, I've never had a chance to play it, undiscovered gaming gem that it will probably turn out to be.

The point I'm trying to make is that there has been no significant advancement in the adventure games genre and that the same formula is still being copied from a decade ago. I do believe I'm repeating myself blatantly here.

I've made a point to download and play every adventure game where someone commented that something about the game was new or interesting, I've been doing this for a while now and it has always led to some little novely that will not will never be used again, just because it was so almost cool the first time but you found that the first time would be the last.

Just for the record, a significant advancement would for me be defined as an advancement in the genre that also will prove to be significant to further games released in the genre. This would be something like an ability to use almost all of the vehicles and enemy equipment in Halo, it has become a must for all games in its sub-genre that followed.

Now, I could be simply proved wrong if there was a flood of adventure games where you play as farm animals in 2005.

You could also call RON games a significant advancement, admittedly there has been a lot of games that followed their example. I'll really have egg on my face then.

[SSH]

Its a bit early in the year for this, maybe, but since most people seem to think that originality is a good thing, should we make more efforts to recognise it in, for example, the AGS Awards?

Spoiler

Apart from anything, its one way to make sure that sequels and remakes don't dominate!

[close]

[Alun]

Sorry, but I pretty much agree with MrColossal and bspeers on this one.Ã,  I just don't think your arguments hold up.Ã,  Especially since you seem to be picking and choosing very oddly what you do and don't consider a "new feature":

How is it that a game that enables you to drive and pilot everything in the level does not qualify as one that has new features?

Let's not call artificial intelligence a feature, let's call it an improvement on something that was already there.

Um... what!?Ã,  Letting you drive and pilot everything in the level is a "new feature" (despite the ability to use vehicles and such having existed beforehand), but artificial intelligence isn't?Ã,  Um... okay...

Just for the record, a significant advancement would for me be defined as an advancement in the genre that also will prove to be significant to further games released in the genre. This would be something like an ability to use almost all of the vehicles and enemy equipment in Halo, it has become a must for all games in its sub-genre that followed.

It has?Ã,  That's certainly news to me.Ã,  Seriously, other than better graphics, which are mostly a function of improved hardware capabilities, there really isn't anything I can think of that's been new in FPS that's been considered "a must" for all future games in the genre.Ã,  Even the questionable example you cite, "enabl[ing] you to drive and pilot everything in the level", is really a function of better hardware capabilities, too; giving the player more freedom like that requires a more sophisticated and flexible graphics and physics engine that weren't possible with the memory and processing capabilities of older computers.

Frankly, though, I'm getting tired of these threads about what needs to change in the graphic adventure genre in order for the genre to survive/return/whatever.Ã,  If the basic formula hasn't changed since the old Sierra/LucasArts days, it's because the formula works, and really changing the basic formula would mean making a new genre, not improving the old one.Ã,  I've gone on about this elsewhere, so I won't elaborate upon it here, but I think the reason the adventure genre is in its current state of ill health is mostly because the game industry has been touting the fact that a game tests the limits of the hardware as a major selling point, and graphic adventures, by their very nature, not requiring the type of complex real-time collision detection and physics engines found in FPSes, don't do that.

Actually, if there's one thing that graphic adventures could do that would make them at least come a little closer to taking full advantage of computer hardware capabilities, it would be to open up the gameworld.Ã,  Graphic adventures have traditionally put some severe restrictions on the player's actions, but nothing in principle prevents an adventure from allowing the player to interact with his environment in more detailed ways, and from having the environment itself more complex and dynamic--nothing, anyway, except that this would mean a lot more work for the designer.Ã,  (A lot, as in by an order of magnitude or two.)Ã,  This, of course, goes along with your mention of "more freedom and reality in your gaming environment", and even more so with Goldmund's thread on RPGs (though, as I've argued, I think considering such freedom a feature especially inherent to RPGs is erroneous).

So, yes, in that way the adventure game genre could evolve, I suppose.Ã,  But should it?Ã,  Well... yes and no.Ã,  I'd love to see an adventure game where the game world was more open and dynamic, where the player had more freedom.Ã,  Heck, maybe someday I'll try to make such a game myself.Ã,  But I wouldn't want to see games like this completely replace traditional adventure games.Ã,  The conventional restricted nature of adventure games has its place, to focus things more on the story and the puzzles.Ã,  Making things more open-ended would actually dilute that.Ã,  Now, that's not necessarily a bad thing; as I said, I'd love to see a game like that.Ã,  I just think that that sort of game and traditional adventure games can coexist.Ã,  For a traditional puzzle-based adventure game, that kind of freedom and open-endedness isn't really desireable; an adventure-type game with that sort of freedom of action would be interesting, and could be very enjoyable if done well, but it would be a separate subgenre; there'd still be a place for the old, more restricted type of puzzle-based adventure game too.Ã,  For a traditional, puzzle-based adventure game, "more freedom and reality in your gaming environment" isn't necessarily a good thing.

Still, though, despite your citation of different other genres to support it, you and Goldmund seem to be both separately arguing the basic point that you want to see adventure games that give the player more freedom of action and include a more complex and realistic gameworld.Ã,  And as far as it goes, I agree with you; I think it would be worth trying to make some games along those lines, though not at the expense of eliminating the traditional adventure game.Ã,  Anyway, rather than argue further about whether or not this has anything to do with RPGs or FPS games, or whether the adventure game genre has to do this to survive, I've decide to go ahead and create a new thread about creating adventure-type games with more freedom of action and realistic gameworlds.Ã,  The thread is here; feel free to post your thoughts.Ã, 

[DG from work]

Its a bit early in the year for this, maybe, but since most people seem to think that originality is a good thing, should we make more efforts to recognise it in, for example, the AGS Awards?

Spoiler

Apart from anything, its one way to make sure that sequels and remakes don't dominate!

[close]

The way I see it, if the game is good enough (sequel or not) then it'll get nominated on its own terms.

I look at last year an see hardly any sequels were nominated (only Vege Patch 2 and Mika Surreal Dream 2 -- The latter being a P3N1S nominee).

Originality is always a good thing, but sometimes familiarity is too. And not to name any names, I've played some pretty memorable sequels this year. Some were even better than the originals.

But like I say, it just depends on the game.

[cpage]

well I cant help but add in my quick views.

1. remember not all "features"can be seen. Developers have used new ways of handling all the objects in a game that in their experience is infact inovative.

but on the basics what genre has really changed?

"So I guess by that rational no genre has really moved forward since it's creation, there have just been diamonds amongst all the crap that stick out."

I actually agree with that.


Also
on the subject of adventure games.

And, even when they produce new adventures with new features like 3d and stuff they get spat out by every hardcore adventure gamer because the old feeling that we love so much is gone.

well gee I wonder why people stoped making them then?