How to make an grapichal adventure available for blind people?

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

I give up. I'm talking about structure, about the foundations, and you keep talking about a description. Either I'm not getting my point across, or I just don't get yours. Either way, carry on, I won't bother y'all anymore.

[lo_res_man]

Being blind doesn't make you stupid. If you tell a blind person there's a house in the middle of a field they know what you mean.

Bottom line remains the same - we're not blind

I am bureaucrately 88% blind, mind you.

I didn't say they were stupid. what I meant was someone who has been blind from birth would have trouble with a description from an old infocom IF. The example I used was close to (probably not exact) the opening description in Zork. probably should have looked up an exact quote. On the other hand a IF written by a blind person or with some serious research would be fascinating. and technically an IF would be the easiest adventure genre to adapt.

[bspeers]

It's quite possible to understand things you can't experience.  It's called an imagination.  Most blind people know what "white" is.  It's not like they live in an enclosed commune only for the blind.  They certainly know that white is a blank, bright colour.

Also, many blind people aren't born blind.  Many lose their sight through an accident or as they age.  Most blind people aren't going to have any problem at all with "white house in field."

That said, shape and feel are probably better choices to appeal to blind people.  You could be in a quiet field with tall grass brushing against your leg where you have heard there is an old house.  The house could feel dry and worn up-close, with curled flakes of paint that are brittle to the touch and fall away into dust.

I can see a lot of value in making a blind version and a sighted version of a game, rather than adapting it for both on the fly.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

They certainly know that white is a blank, bright colour.

Give me a break. If they're blind from birth, they have no conception of colour, no matter how much imagination they have.

[radiowaves]

Yes they have, they have their own conception of colors. Something that may be totally different from ours. Actually every person has their own conception of colors and everything. How do you know that white is white? Maybe an alien says its totally something else and he sees the colors you can't even see, yet alone imagine.

We all live in our own fantasies that we call reality.

There have been studies in this field. I once saw a documentary about a genious who could do complicated calculations with big numbers and he didn't see the numbers as numbers, he saw them as feelings or something, different surfaces, objects, colors. Usually children have this sence of experiencing and feeling things, but once people get older...
Brain is so complicated you know. Who determines what we call senses?

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

A colour is a visual thing.

If they have a conception of colour, it's not what we call colour.

By the same logic, if you call that thing over there a dog, then I should be able to call it a chair.

[radiowaves]

A colour is a visual thing.

If they have a conception of colour, it's not what we call colour.

By the same logic, if you call that thing over there a dog, then I should be able to call it a chair.

Ahem, did you mean what you call color? Maybe my blue is your orange, we just call it with a same name.

Actually to this day scientists don't actually know what color is.
And remember, everything has no meaning beyond our mind, our brain determines how to see or hear things. There is no reality since things can only be observed by observer not by things themselves... You know, matter actually consists of nothingness...

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

I don't care if what you call blue is what we call orange. You're being purpusefully dense. Regardless of what the colour might be, colour is colour.

[lo_res_man]

Lets get out of the philosiphy as enjoyable as it is. This topic isn't about that if anyone wants to start a topic n the nature of reality go ahead, we have had weirder topics.I am not saying they can't maybe imagine colours, I have heard of blind from birth people doing drawings. But they where rather on the crude side. Wouldn't it be easier for a blind from birth person to have descriptions he can more fully enjoy. That are more immersive for his world view. Put it in terms he or she can understand for intutivly.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Oh, this is precious. You're the one who's went off-topically-"philosophical". I was considering practical questions.

[lo_res_man]

How did I! get philosiphical? I am sorry I don't understand

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Damn. Sorry. I didn't mean you, obviously. I'm just seeing red now, for other reasons.

[lo_res_man]

oh oops, sorry I stole your offence from you cuz now I know you wern't giving it to ME

[Reid]

I take issue with people who say making games that can be enjoyed by all people including the blind, physically disabled or deaf is a waste of time. It's all relative to what you as the developer of the game enjoy doing. Game developers are entertainers and if a blind person can enjoy their games, that's awesome. If I design my game so they can enjoy it just as well as someone who is sighted, then that will be hugely satisfying and worthwhile.

I got the same kind of reaction when I did my closed captioning mod for Doom3 so that the hard of hearing could play the game. People would say, "Doom3 is all about sound, deaf people can't play! What a waste of time." Truly disgusting, arrogant and mis-informed comments. The mod has proven without a doubt that deaf people can and do enjoy Doom3.

As for an adventure game that can be played by the blind, a sight assisted mode where there is a screen scanner that automatically jumps from hotspot to hotspot, calling it out could be helpful. I enter a room and my current cursor is set to LOOK. The cursor jumps to a window automatically and I hear, "look at object, window", then after several seconds it jumps to a character named Jackie D. and I hear, "look at character, Jackie D."

-Reid

[Khris]

There's a tiny difference between putting subtitles on a game relying heavily on eye-candy and designing an point&click adventure for blind people.

I can't see any reasonable way to do the latter; IF is the only way IMO.
At the end it really comes down to removing everything graphical from the game, including pointing with a mouse. If I were blind I wouldn't want to constantly hear some sonar bleep, neither would I enjoy listening to another hotspot's name every few seconds.

One of the most important things of every game is the interface; it has to be intuitive, and it has to do what I want, when I want. When I encounter a game that won't let me skip dialogs or cutscenes, I uninstall it immediately.

If you want to create a game that can be enjoyed by both blind and seeing people, go for IF.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

I take issue with people who say making games that can be enjoyed by all people including the blind, physically disabled or deaf is a waste of time.

I take issue with people who put it in cases of black or white and then extrapolate it into something to take issue of.

I say that writing a whole book in Braille or in Morse Code is a huge waste of time. But some people do it. Guess what, not everyone's the same. If people were to take offence at stuff like this, they wouldn't have the time to *do* anything else.

KhrisMUC, and some other guys - maybe I should take some lessons from you guys, a lot of what's being said I've tried to say over several posts and some aggrievances, and you put it much more concisely.

EDIT - And Reid, if you're talking about

But, if asked, I would have said the "Invincible Island Remake" game would have been a waste of time,

which you must be, since it's the only mention of time, why not read the sentence through? The point I wanted to make is that,

the interface would have been too cumbersome, etc... but I ended up playing it to the end, loving it.

Should I take offence at you not reading things through, or missing the point? No, because that'd be silly. Which is my current point.

[Candall]

If I were blind I wouldn't want to constantly hear some sonar bleep

Oh, it would get highly annoying, I agree.  I was trying to come up with some way of suggesting geometry using only the equipment that the general audience would be using (sans video), and I'm aware that it's far from an ideal means.  I've been thinking about it, though... so far to no avail on that front.

[lo_res_man]

Does anyone know of any easy to use IF making software?

[Khris]

This is arguably the best IF authoring language: http://www.inform-fiction.org/inform6.html

For an overview of the available authoring systems check this page: http://www.firthworks.com/roger/cloak/

[FSi++]

Ahem, did you mean what you call color? Maybe my blue is your orange, we just call it with a same name.

Actually to this day scientists don't actually know what color is.
And remember, everything has no meaning beyond our mind, our brain determines how to see or hear things. There is no reality since things can only be observed by observer not by things themselves...

We actually do know what the colour is. Objective definition of colour would be simply a wavelength of a particular photon. In that sence one could speak of gamma and ultraviolet "colours". That definition is not subjective, as one could measure wavelengths. Therefore one may say that the napkin is red because it reflects mostly red photons.
Subjective perception of colour could be flawed though. It would happen because you can't determine exact wavelength of light, unlike hearing, when you do percept fourier images of sounds, but in your eyes you only have three kinds of receptors (red, green and blue). Not only won't they tell a difference between red and orange (except they have different chances to be percepted), they also have different "weights" for your brain. As you may know, red light with the same intensity as the blue one would seem brighter to you.
What does that mean? Blind person can't be a painter, but could be an optic scientist.

p.s. My major is physics, if you can't tell