Hi
May I ask for my own personal appreciation:
* If you had to list 3 things that make up a good game what would they be?
* What is it about a game that inspires you?
* What do you consider 'off putting' about a game?
* Your Preference: Lucasarts or Sierra or other?
* Mouse or Keyboard controls?
* Anything else you can think of....
Thank you to all those that answer.
cheers
barefoot
First off, this is in the wrong section. It should be in Adventure Related.
* If you had to list 3 things that make up a good game what would they be?
-Graphics, User interface, Story, and a 4th would be Gameplay/Puzzles
* What is it about a game that inspires you?
-Great graphics or animations. Sometimes great programming will drop my jaw, but it's not very often.
* What do you consider 'off putting' about a game?
-Bad spelling and/or grammar. Once I hear someone saying that a game has bad spelling or grammar, I avoid it no matter what the graphics may look like. I can't enjoy a game that confuses their "Its" with "It's" or "Your" with "You're" etc. It stops me mid sentence like a brick wall.
* Your Preference: Lucasarts or Sierra or other?
-Definitely Lucasarts.
* Mouse or Keyboard controls?
-Depends on what kind of game it is. An arcade game will get away with keyboard only controls but an adventure game cannot, unless it's an arcade sequence mid-game or something.
* Anything else you can think of....
-Get several beta testers and actually listen to them! It's hard to hand over something you feel is a 'completed' project and have people tell you what's wrong with it.
Hi
I've moved this from the wrong forum apparantly..
May I ask for my own personal appreciation:
* If you had to list 3 things that make up a good game what would they be?
* What is it about a game that inspires you?
* What do you consider 'off putting' about a game?
* Your Preference: Lucasarts or Sierra or other?
* Mouse or Keyboard controls?
* Anything else you can think of....
Thank you to all those that answer.
cheers
barefoot
Thank you Ryan Timothy
I have put a copy of this is the other forum... as you pointed out to me..
Did you see QI as to the spelling of Grocers Grocer's Grocers' you can use either.. but i catch your drift..
Your points are duly noted and I thank you for taking the time to reply.
barefoot
You shouldn't have created a new thread, the moderators would have moved it here for you.
Now you have two threads with the same thing. I figured you were in the AGS forums long enough to know which section was the appropriate one, and that the mods will move it for you if it's not. I was just letting you know while I was posting my answers.
Too late... must be getting wornout (at 55 you have to make a small allowance).. sorrys mods.. mind you.. it was about improving.. in my case improving games..
barefoot
(1) story, puzzles, music
(2) story, puzzles, music
(3) pixelhunts, unskippable cutscenes, and poor interface
(4) neither
(5) there are no excuses for not enabling both
These "gamer survey" threads are interesting to read as a developer -it's kind of like market research, albeit anecdotal and from a very self-selected group. Sure they're often repetitive, but there's always a couple of insightful comments that make you think.
What would really take it a step further, however, would be a broader survey of adventure gamers. A database that could tell you that 80% of the Sierra camp hate dialog trees or 98% of the Lucas Arts camp despise mazes (unless in dialog form.... ::) ) could really inform development. Does anyone know if this has been done and where to find it?
Since I've cluttered up your thread with semi-on-topic musings, I'll finish by answering your questions:
Quote* If you had to list 3 things that make up a good game what would they be?
Atmosphere, plot and puzzles, probably in that order.
Quote* What is it about a game that inspires you?
As a developer? I'm always kicking myself playing other people's games thinking
"Why didn't I think of that!"In a broader sense, I am inspired by the satisfaction of solving problems and being appropriately rewarded.
Quote* What do you consider 'off putting' about a game?
Unedited material. I can handle the occasional glitch, but obvious spelling errors or information overload is a real turn-off for me.
Quote* Your Preference: Lucasarts or Sierra or other?
Sierra, more due to familiarity than because I think their "style" is any better.
Quote* Mouse or Keyboard controls?
Indifferent.
Quote* Anything else you can think of....
Bismark is the capital of North Dakota. In terms of AGS games, I'm a little put off by the recent surge in graphically awesome projects. Don't get me wrong, awesome graphics are great (and awesome), but they really eat into productivity. I remember when (it seemed that) there were two or three new games released every day, but now the culture of quality seems to have really slowed up the release rate. Too often I'm reading amazing WiP threads started
years ago, with no release date in sight. Many times these games are so awesome they are just abandoned, because they could never be finished to such a degree of quality (given the constraints of freeware or highly risky commercial business models). Do bear in mind my response to the first question: graphical quality is way down my personal priority list, so I'm biased. Nevertheless, AGSers, I say turn down the graphical quality and churn out more games!
Nicely put Baron
I think most of us would like to produce cutting edge graphics, somewhat high end like the great commercial cost-a-bomb games.. but alas, some of us mere mortals are not gifted in the world of art or scripting.
But, as you say, maybe our utopia sights should be tailored lower to our own skill and not pushed aside or be ridiculed. Having said that, there has to be a certain quality else it becomes painful to play. If it involves a team then there are no excuses for bad quality. Most of us go it alone though.
This is something that with some help, advice and practice could be greatly improved but it could take some time.... Mind you, its fantastic to have decent graphics but then if you produce low end game play it ruins it. I think you have to find a happy medium that compliments your skills at that time.
When I play other peoples games I sometimes get inspired by the producer's skills and ingenuity in the making of the game, but sometimes producer's make a game where the user is expected to know certain things and it can be completely 'out of the box' which often causes frustration..like the graphics are great, even the story is great but the puzzles are too mind-numbing and somewhat stupid....I've played a few of these..
I remember the very early 90's CnP games on the large floppy disks..
I think cultural differences also make a difference as to how people see and play a game.
Grammar errors, well, I suppose we should use a dictionary.. Maybe AGS should incorporate a kind of spell checker of some kind?
I can overlook 1 or 2 errors, especially if its been written by someone from another country....
All in all I'de say produce games provided they are of a certain level and are playable and hope that your god gives you the talent to improve with time..
Viva la AGS
barefoot
Cheers Radiant
barefoot
*
1: A gameplay mechanic or quirk to set it apart.
2: Interesting and credible story that does not start off too slow (players will lose interest)
3: Immersion, ie: the events and things of the game should feel like they belong in the game's world
*
A good character and story design, clever use of sound (music, SFX and voice acting), clever use of gameplay mechanics, immersion
*
Illogical puzzles, lack of immersion, horrendous graphics (simple is good, detailed is good, detailed but poorly drawn and cluttered = horrendous), a story that starts off too slow or ends without any closure, unskippable tutorials, games that need tutorials (give basic controls in manual, have player lear by doing!), unskippable cutscenes (especially with voices / music), too easy, too hard (some like games easy, a selectable difficulty level is good).
*
Lucasarts
*
Mouse & keyboard are ok. It might be a good idea to mix them up a bit (I intend to do this in the future)
* Anything else you can think of....
I'm merging the "off-putting things" question and the "Lucasarts or Sierra" question: It's not only about the interface, the universe, etc. It's also that in Sierra games you can die, and there are timed events. I hate both. Some like them. It's a big part of your game design choice.
- Firstly, memorable moments. I want a puzzle, scene, animation or dialogue exchange that will stick in my mind and others' minds that I can discuss with them, be inspired by and fondly recall years later. Secondly, I don't want an interface or controls that frustrates me when playing. You might have the best gameplay ideas ever, but if I am so distracted by having to cycle through 9 cursors or don't have a hotspot indicator to find them, or your character walks really slowly, I'm not going to be patient enough to see them through. Last, I'd go with building your scenes to catch my attention, with graphics that fit the mood (not necessarily the best graphics ever, as long as they're consistent), responses to looking and using that fit the character I am meant to be playing and that sort of thing.
- Daring to do something different to the norm, or doing something I've seen before particularly well. Uniqueness and superb quality are the two things I find most inspiring.
- If it's hard to play, if I can tell someone hasn't really put much effort in, if the characters aren't interesting or speak too much, if you make me work on each puzzle for 15 minutes without any story progression after solving it...
- Other. I prefer LucasArts to Sierra, but I think an interface should be designed to fit your specific game idea, not done that way because ____ did it that way 20 years ago.
- Doesn't matter. As long as controls are intuitive, either is good.
- Anything else? Yeah. My opinions on what makes games good change all the time, so in 3 months I'll completely disagree with everything I just wrote := Also, why are you so interested in people's answers? Indie game design (particularly freeware) is a very personal thing, you're not trying to appeal to a certain market in order to make money. What allows us to be so creative in indie games is that we don't need to care what other people think of what we make, as long as we're satisfying our creative desires. And, no matter how against the grain of what I like something can be, if it's done *well*, I'll still play the hell out of it, and afterwards go back and question my philosophies, because if I enjoy something that I didn't think I would, I've clearly found that there's more to good game design than I initially though :D
Man of few words then.. :o
Thanks for your comments Lamp-Post304
Quote
Also, why are you so interested in people's answers?
The way to self improve is to listen to people that have achieved something you are aiming for yourself... and of course other gamers to see what turns their key game playing wise.. and build on that..
You yourself have made quite a few games, so i guess you must have learnt a bit :=
why do major companies still do surveys????
cheers
barefoot
1. Atmosphere, Story, Puzzles - in this order
2. Atmosphere and Pacing (meaning how the game evolves and how everything works together to drive the story)
3. Annoying Interfaces, confusing puzzles and not having clear goals.
4. Lucasarts - I think you shouldn't be able to die in adventure games and if you do it should be clearly your fault
5. It depends of the complexity of the puzzles. I think keyboard controls give a better sense of immersion.
Quote from: barefoot on Fri 04/02/2011 19:05:13
why do major companies still do surveys????
Because they are interested in what people think, because these people are their potential customers, and they wish to sell more of their product or service than they currently do, because this is seen as an important measure of success :=
And yes, I learn a lot with every project I work on.
* If you had to list 3 things that make up a good game what would they be?
Good story
Good puzzles
Innovation - I'm a sucker for games that do something new or interesting with the code.
* What is it about a game that inspires you?
Its release - This is a major achievment in itself, and when ever a new AGS game is released I feel a little bit more inspired to work on my own ideas... clearly not enough to get me to pull my finger out though
* What do you consider 'off putting' about a game?
When I have to wait too long for a character to walk from one side of a screen to the other... especially if there is a lot of to-ing and fro-ing between scenes. I think all games should have, as standard, either: a) double click to run, or b) go straight into the next screen after clicking on the door.
* Your Preference: Lucasarts or Sierra or other?
Lucas - To be entirely honest, I don't really get on very well with Sierra games.
* Mouse or Keyboard controls?
Either, as long as it's appropriate for the particular game. I don't want to be forced to use a keyboard if a mouse would make things ten times easier.
* Anything else you can think of.... Not for the moment. I'll have a little think :-)
Thank you Stupot
all taken into account...
I'ts good to hear how others view game playing.
Maybe you will take the plunge one day and decide to complete a game, its about getting your feet wet and taking any flack but keeping a stiff upper lip and progressing.
I myself have played many games where the interface is clogged and confusion with an assortment of cursors and stuff, greatly drawn and scripted but a bit OTT or has puzzles completely scewwhiff....
Thank you Lamp-Post304 for your added comment.. It's about knowing what most people want and like.. and adapting as such...Simples...
I agree about producing something different as opposed to same old same old.. but then we have to know the basics first, don't we? Mind you, same old same old is good if it's done right (my thoughts)..
I kind of like the old style early 90's pc games, they had a certain appeal... Like the very first manic mansion....( on rather large floppy := )
This Topic was raised because I wanted to know what other people think regarding playing games, especially AGS... and I appreciate all your comments....
cheers
barefoot
Moved this to adventure talk. Mods will have to merge it in with the new post.
You really shouldn't just start multiple threads with the same question.
Nothing like a survey, every now and again.
* If you had to list 3 things that make up a good game what would they be?
1. Perhaps the word is "atmosphere," but I really mean the holistic experience of the game--how well the parts jive. There's no one thing in a game which will automatically make me stop playing due to its absence (including "gameplay" though at that point perhaps "game" becomes the wrong word). But are the elements present enhancing the experience in a complimentary way? Are there elements whose absence truly is detracting? This means gameplay and interface and story and visuals, and sound, coherence of the game world, characters, humor.
2. More specifically, most of my favorite games have been story games. If a game can tell a moving or thought provoking story, I am generally happy, even if some other elements fall short. Bonus points, of course, if the story is able to use the medium to its benefit. This often tends to happen through the introduction of non-linear elements, which actually tend to irk me, though these are certainly intriguing in their own right. I like it when the story has the nerve to assert itself over the game, but uses the interactive elements to help involve the player.
3. Close related to number one is the general "fun factor." If #1 describes the artistic integrity of the game, some games can be a complete mess with an absolutely wretched story, if any, and still manage to be fantastically enjoyable. And it is entirely possible to make a game with a great story, and a level of depth and consistency that works perfectly, but still manages to be rather boring. This is in much the same way that we have great literature, and then we have books that are fun to read, but there is no guarantee that one will ensure the other.
* What is it about a game that inspires you?
See above, really. I think really that inspiring things are often unanticipated, so it could be anything, really. Make me think, or make me feel something. Music and story are big, though. Visuals, too. Gameplay can do it in art-games, sometimes, or if it's really innovative.
* What do you consider 'off putting' about a game?
The story. Especially the writing. It's really hard to find good stories in games. A lot of the best game stories would make decent B-movies and so-so genre fiction. Adventure Games and JRPGs have set themselves up as the two great linear storytelling genres, but the more I replay my old favorites, the more I think the potential is wasted. This is true of both commercial and amateur games. It's unfortunate, if understandable. It is, in fact, rather difficult to write a good story, and the constraints of the game medium only make things worse. I think people also expect less from game stories, so writers know they can get away with more. Over-reliance on tropes, plotholes, unbelievable dialog and situation, etc.
If I can't win without stellar reflexes, which I don't have, then that is also a no go.
Too much slowness or finnickiness of controls/movement. Slow text that can't be skipped.
Too much open endedness is fun, but leads to existential angst.
* Your Preference: Lucasarts or Sierra or other?
I'm in the do what works camp. VinceTwelve has sold me on the idea that LucasArts and Sierra both have rather clunky and redundant systems, though honestly I'm used to both well enough that they don't get in the way of my enjoyment. I'm not sold on the one-click system, though. Text-input is intriguing in small doses. Right now I'm interested in context menus and keyboard/gamepad controls. Tailor the gameplay to the controls and vice versa, and I'll be happy.
With regard to dying--Not too many shocks or surprises, and keep time limits reasonable. Autosaves are a reasonable compromise. If I need to save often, make sure I know that. I think a quick-save key would be a good addition to more games. Been loving that feature in Deus Ex.
Sometimes I actually like a penalty for dying. I think I'm too used to being able to save anywhere, but the way they make savepoints in a lot of console games seems like a good way to go, although I advocate having some way of at least temporarily saving progress for people who have to leave in a hurry.
* Mouse or Keyboard controls?
When there are mouse controls I feel like I am telling the character what to do. Is this more "cerebral"? Keyboard controls put me inside the character more. Are we playing a game about bodies or a game about minds?
* Anything else you can think of....
I'm with the camp that says that amateur developers should make what they want to make. You probably aren't going to be famous. If you are really lucky you will get internet famous. But odds are if you like what you are doing, and you make it to your own satisfaction, someone else will like it too, and you'll get more out of the project if you make it for yourself and the people that think like you than if you make it for the lowest common denominator.
But of course advice is good too, so this isn't really a criticism.
* If you had to list 3 things that make up a good game what would they be?
Characters (this is the most important one to me. If I don't like the character, then no matter how good the story is, I can't get into it. [first person shooters exempted, of course]. Story. Dialog.
* What is it about a game that inspires you?
Cleverness. I love when a game makes me think in new or unusual ways in order to progress.
* What do you consider 'off putting' about a game?
Any time a game has a clumsy, emotionally manipulative moment. I hate ham-fisted attempts to make me feel something. That should flow naturally from the story and the dialog.
* Your Preference: Lucasarts or Sierra or other?
Indifferent.
* Mouse or Keyboard controls?
Indifferent.
* Anything else you can think of....
God Bless Texas. (And by that I mean the American Texas. Not the Texas that I just recently discovered that Australia has. Knock that off, Australia!) Also, the New York Jets should have gone to the Super Bowl. And most importantly, vote for my game in the AGS awards!!! I crave your love, AGS Community!!! :D
Quote from: Ponch on Sun 06/02/2011 22:35:49
* What is it about a game that inspires you?
Boobs.
Story. Make sure you're telling something fresh and fun. Fresh does NOT necessarily mean new; you can revive a lot of old ideas with a wash or a coat of paint, and there are many ways of turning familiar stories into something exciting.
Gameplay. Be it adventure, action, or a straight puzzle game. Do it right! As long as you can manage it, don't be afraid to mix up play styles to throw wrenches at the player and make them rethink everything, like an adventure game where the player wanders into a bar and gets involved in a pinball championship (or darts, or bar fight, or drinking contest, etc). If you have an empty room and aren't sure what to do with it, get rid of it! Focus on the parts of the game where you can keep it a lively, engrossing experience and don't try to pad it out.
Controls. A game will live or die by proper controls. Don't artificially complicate your interfaces (and the game) by having a button that would better serve as a standard left/right mouse click behavior. I've played so many ags games where the interface is intentionally complicated to make the game 'harder' and that's simply poor design. If a person is playing an action game, for god's sake don't make them click an onscreen button to jump or duck or reload! These things need to be handled with controller or keyboard buttons and kept as close to player control as possible. Only have as many actions as needed (the age of overwhelming people with a long list of verbs is really long gone) and make sure they make sense, especially if they are icons. No matter the control scheme, spend some time refining it until it does exactly what it should do without impairing the player's enjoyment of the game.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Mon 07/02/2011 00:20:28
I've played so many ags games where the interface is intentionally complicated to make the game 'harder' and that's simply poor design. If a person is playing an action game, for god's sake don't make them click an onscreen button to reload!
Hey now. That was a bit of brilliant game design on my part and in no way indicative of me being terribly lazy. No sir. :=
Every time I see a thread about what people don't like in adventure games I look at the game I am currently working on and start worrying whether I should be removing X because people don't like it or doing Y instead of Z.
Then I have to remind myself that you can't please all of the people all of the time, and then I carry on working on making the game as good as I can to my own satisfaction. There will be things that some people will love and others will detest, but that's par for the course.
EDIT: Of course, I know the sorts of things that people tend to dislike (such as bad English, puzzles that have nothing to do with anything, pixel hunts and crap graphics), and so these won't be featured in the game :)
And my answers:
Three things that make up a good game
An exciting plot, fantastic graphics, humour.
What is it about a game that inspires you?
Good design and clever programming.
What do you consider 'off putting' about a game?
Crashes, poor English, object interactions that don't do anything, no suggestion of what the next goal is... essentially anything that says that the game-maker hasn't put in much effort.
Your Preference: Lucasarts or Sierra or other?
Regarding the interface, Sierra. Having to do everything with two clicks (verb, object) soon gets annoying, as does trying out myriad verb+object combinations that have no effect. As for the games themselves, I can't comment as I've never really played any of the originals.
Mouse or Keyboard controls?
Mouse, but if there are keyboard shortcuts for mouse operations (eg, for opening a particular verb on the verb coin), then that can only be plus.
Well said paolo, that's exactly how I feel about it too. You would always do well to avoid big no-no's like mazes and such, but beyond that it really comes down to personal preference. Like you said, you can't please everyone, so the most important thing is that you please yourself.
That.. sounded kinda wrong, but you know what I mean. :)
Oh and as for my answers:
If you had to list 3 things that make up a good game what would they be?
I would say the most important thing for me is immersion, which is achieved through a combination of these three factors:
- Fun gameplay (challenging or clever puzzles, responsive controls, proper feedback and rewards)
- World/Setting/Atmosphere (a sense that you are really part of a living, breathing world)
- Narrative (good story, logical objectives, well-written characters, memorable moments)
What is it about a game that inspires you?
When the the factors I mentioned above mesh together, and you go from thinking "I am playing this game where I am X" to "I AM X".
What do you consider 'off putting' about a game?
Poor controls. If walking around is already a hassle, there is little chance I'm going to continue playing the game.
Your Preference: Lucasarts or Sierra or other?
I've never been much of a fan of Sierra games, so between the two I favor Lucasarts for various reasons, mostly because of the more playful way they approach settings and characters. But overall I prefer Revolution for the intuitive controls and advanced graphical trinkets of their Virtual Theatre Engine.
Mouse or Keyboard controls?
Touchscreen. It's basically the same as mouse controls, but somehow it feels better. But on PC I favored the one-click mouse system for a long time, although I'm starting to experiment with keyboard controls aswell. I'm never going back to cycling through available cursor modes though...
If you had to list 3 things that make up a good game what would they be?
-Really glad to see so much use of the A-Word on here. Atmospheeere, of course it's important for the mechanics of the game itself to be elegant but that's an area of gratification that can be fulfilled outside of the computer. It's when, in addition to playing a fun game, that I really get a feel that I'm walking around a real world, talking to real people (albeit in a very effeciant and stripped down way which serves the gameplay) that I really start feeling like something's been achieved that's unique to this artform.
-Good storytelling. Not necessarily a grand, life-changing and wholly original story; just one that's solid and told in a competent and interesting way. I think it's really important; from playing experience and personal development experience. I tried to make my IF game fully open-ended with no over-arcing story and it's just a mess (there's lots of other reasons for that too but I think this is a core one), the player needs something to string them along and go back to when they're done soaking up the world. The most important factor of this is that the protagonist needs a goal to achieve, this is in every screen-writing manual and it goes three billionfold for interactive storytelling because achieving goals is what keep players hooked.
-It has to be fuuuun! This guy explains it better than me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqJv68pE_cY
What do you consider 'off putting' about a game?
Slow walking, bland dialogue, eerie poser-looking characters or any 3D with bad stock motion-capture, crystals broken into four shards by an evil wizard, relentless punishing of the player, puzzles that don't make sense until after you've stumbled upon the solution, sudden changes in gameplay mechanics (variety is important, timing-based minigames in amongst puzzle-solving is annoying),
Your Preference: Lucasarts or Sierra or other?
Lucasarts all the way. I really don't have the patience for Sierra "YOU HAD TO CLICK ON THAT EGG DIDN'T YOU?! YOU IDIOT! YOU DIE FOR BEING SUCH AN IDIOT!"
Mouse or Keyboard controls?
For 2D I like 100% mouse-based, it's good to have keyboard shortcuts available but I generally don't use them if I don't have to. For 3D gameplay though (which might start becoming more common in AGS now it's open source, who knows) I like first person shooter controls (mouse to look around, WASD to move, click to shoot, e to interact). I find the keyboard/mouse hybrid interface of Telltale's recent games a little bit clunky and inelegant, I sometimes feel like I'd prefer to just do everything on the keyboard like in Grim Fandango