Puzzles for the sake of having puzzles?

[poc301]

Hey everyone.  I am currently working on the Murran Chronicles Episode 2 : Talons of Terror (shameless plug)

Anyway, I have the plot, story and dialogs all mapped out and am doing the actual game.  I realized that as it stands, I only have 3 puzzles in the entire game.  All are logical, well thought out and not just a simple "get A and use it to get B" type puzzles. 

I realized though, that without more puzzles, it really feels more like a detective type game where you are unravelling the mystery by talking to people and investigating the scenes..  It feels like less of a standard adventure game..

So as adventure game players, how do you feel about putting puzzles into a game just for the sake of having more puzzles?  I would do my best to make them well thought out, or make them at least fit the context/flow of the game, and not be random puzzles for no reason.

So my question is, should I add more puzzles, or just go with the very few puzzles as it stands?

Thanks,

Bill

[Ubel]

I personally am sick and tired of adventure game puzzles. It's always nice to see something different developed with AGS.

[Tuomas]

I agree in the sense, that it's not good to add puzzles just for the sake of it. On the other hand, getting a key from a mousehole might work if the game was wholly like that. A detective game on the other hand doesn't really need inventory puzzling, when most of the work is done between your ears anyway.

Such puzzles, as the gorilla puzzles in The Flight of the Amazon Queen, that really have no point in the game are not only unnecessary but frustrating. So I suggest you leave unnecesary puzzles out. Just add a couple tricky ones, and it might get more interesting to some.

Oh, and if you're out of ideas, add a maze

[Helme]

I recently played a detective game and the lack of challenging puzzles was a real flaw. (there were quite some puzzles, but all were very simple.) I think few challenging puzzles are better than lots of artifical and easy puzzles.

[Jared]

Hmm, it's all well and good to say 'I don't like puzzles so this is great' and I understand the argument becuase in detective games puzzles can feel VERY gratuitous. At the same time, has their place been taken by anything else? Do you have to think hard about what questions to ask, what to show people, does the player themself have to work it out and point the finger? I ask this because if your game is just like The Case of the Rose Tattoo in which the game's only real 'puzzle' was 'talk to every character and exhaust every dialogue option'. (At least in the 3 hours I played before it crashed completely) Of course, that one also had the flaw that everyone you met was trying to stop your investigation for petty reasons that made no real sense, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your game has more interesting obstacles..

So in short, if there's only 3 puzzles, fine. If there's only 3 obstacles in the player's way - THAT could be a problem.

[Stupot]

For me... you need more puzzles.  When I'm playing a game I like to feel as though I'm achieveing something rather than just clicking through a load of dialogue... if I want to watch a movie I'll go to Blockbuster.  That said, you are right to be cautious about inserting puzzles willy-nilly for the sake of it.

Say you have a door that is currently opened simply by clicking on it.  You could block that door, and create a puzzle to open it.  Now, this could be a simple case of finding a key (highly unoriginal but still).  But you can't just shove a key behind a bookshelf and expect the player to find it... the key has to be there for a reason... indeed the door has to be locked for a reason... Who is the Antagonist... would he or anyone else have reason to want the door locked?  And more importantly, what is behind the door?  If there isn't something exciting or useful (and relevent) behind the door then there's really no point in locking it.  Otherwise it's busywork, not gameplay.

Of course, it doesn't have to be a key.  Perhaps there is a person guarding the door and you need to get him to let you past. Perhaps there is a code to crack or a mini-puzzle to solve, like this one in Nostradamus:

Observatory door puzzle

But whatever it is, it has to be there for a REASON that makes sense in your storyline.  There has to be a reason for the door being locked and there has to be something behind it that makes all the effort of unlocking it worthwhile..

[Edit]
Cheers Eric, I just made it into a normal link.

[MrColossal]

if I want to watch a movie I'll go to Blockbuster.

Boo, that's such a negative thing to say. Don't you think it's really "If you want to play an adventure game with more puzzles you'll play a different game."?

also I don't think the place that hosts that image allows hotlinking, stu

I'd suggest taking another pass through the story and looking for places to add in some logical things for a detective to do that could be seen as puzzles, if there is a place for them.

If not puzzles than interaction. I do not suggest the Pleurburgh style of interaction where you have to use the keys on your car every time you want to go some place, or take your shoes off before going in the house... But simple things to immerse me into the game would be appreciated.

[SpacePaw]

maybe try adding puzzles based on the dialog? like input text. Then the player would have to understand the plot and think. Be sure to add a journal then many people are bad at names and stuff. So I would go for the input puzzles in your case

[TheJBurger]

For detective games, look at the gameplay ideas proposed in Resonance, or Cayanne Pepper, or any game by Dave Gilbert.

Instead of standard Use Y on X puzzles, you can have short term memory (Resonance), dialog topics revolving around referencing characters (Cayanne Pepper), or a note system for critical information (Shivah, Blackwell Legacy).

[SpacePaw]

Instead of standard Use Y on X puzzles, you can have short term memory, dialog topics revolving around referencing characters, or a note system for critical information.

hey short term memory would be nice. As a additional inventory where you put like part of dialogs or something...It would be really fun never saw that before! It's easy to vary the puzzle levels then. easy need just one quote remembered and hard need like 3 quotes and presentation of an item. woah... Real fun! I must use it someday 0.o

[Snarky]

Not all adventures play alike. Take a game like "The Vacuum", which also features a lot of investigating. It doesn't have a ton of puzzles, but that doesn't mean it's short on gameplay, or that it doesn't feel like an adventure game. (In fact, it was nominated for the AGS Award for Best Gameplay.)

You can get a lot of mileage out of interrogating people and examining crime scenes. Laura Bow II: The Dagger of Amon Ra had a lot of both, and it worked quite well. Just build the flow of the game so that the player has to piece it together each step of the way from the testimonies of multiple witnesses and the evidence you collect.

You could also look at something like the Phoenix Wright games, where you cross-examine witnesses to reveal the flaws in their statements until you find the truth.

I don't think you should put in puzzles just as roadblocks, and certainly not the bizarre non sequiturs where you have to perform completely arbitrary (or transparently rationalized) tasks just in order to proceed. But gameplay doesn't have to be about fetch quests and out-of-the-box inventory combinations. If your story is about investigating something, give the player tasks that might arise in the course of an investigation.

[nihilyst]

I really like The Colonel's Bequest. As far as I remember, the game could be finished wihtout typing in a single command (other than "open door", maybe). How many puzzles you solved, was up to you. You needed some simpler ones to solve the story, and if that wasn't enough, you could solve some deeper puzzles and investigate on the mansion's background story. I loved the idea.

Other than that, every puzzle is fine, as long as it isn't "Bring me a coffee!" - "Here it is." - "Fine. Now I'll tell ya."

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Padding doesn't hurt the game if what you add is actually interesting and/or fun, but adding puzzles just to artificially extend gameplay is an aspect of the genre that bothers me most of all, and 95% of the time when I detect this contrivance I will stop playing.

[Intense Degree]

For me story, storytelling and characters are the most important elements of a good adventure game. Puzzles are an important part too of course but can sometimes detract when they are just thrown in all over the place with no relevance to the story.

Thinking of my all time favourite, Gabriel Knight, much of it was talking to people, finding something out and then talking to someone else or a new location opens etc. Of course there were puzzles too  (inventory based) but far less than in many games (particularly non professional games) and I doubt anyone who has played the game laments any lack of "use x on y" type puzzles.

On the whole I agree with those above who have said that only having 3 "puzzles" is a very different thing to only having 3 obstacles to overcome in the game and to be honest the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If the game plays well and the story grips you then I don't care if there are only a few inventory items and most of the obstacles to overcome are dialog or otherwise based.

Now I think of it Overclocked had very little in the way of puzzles and much of the game was giving the right dialog to the right person but I still thought it was a really interesting and good game.

So on the whole as long as the game plays well and the obstacles are there I don't think it matters what form they take; traditional puzzles or otherwise.

[LUniqueDan]

It depends on what you are considering a puzzle.

Puzzles can be use to avoid player to received too much information at the same time.
(speaking with 10 NPC in a row is boring)

Puzzles can be use to avoid the player feeling lost on a huge game world.
(No keys before reaching this point of the story)

Puzzles can be use to create cliff hangers between sub parts.
(I wanna talk to the next NPC to know where it's going, but I need to escape first)

Puzzles can be use to reinforce Ideas set by speeches.
(Mr. X is considered bad, and 10 minutes later the player need to dodge Mr.X bullets)

Puzzles can be use to make the player having the feeling HE is the player.
(Instead of just listenning for a long speech, the player need to buy the guy another beer)

Puzzle can be use to make the world arround realistic.
(Why not just trying that, oh gosh, nope it don't works)

So to that definition, I hope you have more than 3 puzzles. It's not a golden rule, but it usually make a game more enjoyable.

Cheers