The Big Thread of Information and Ass

[Meowster]

I started this thread so people can talk about stuff that bugs them in games, and swap hints and tips on avoiding such problems. You don't have to be a game making whiz kid to notice this stuff. If something feels out of place, then it shouldn't be there. So pleasepleaseplease everybody, submit as many hints/tips/problems as you can!

My biggest problem with games released with AGS is the artwork. It doesn't MATTER what it looks like, it's the fact so many people leave such a clashing gap between the sprite graphics and the BG graphics, or change their style halfway through a game, or when they don't make the background to the same proportions as the hero, so the tables only reach his knees and the doors are twice his height.

Okay here's my contribution to this thread, and my suggestions on how to tackle the above problems:

CONCEPT ART

In Beyond Reality, the very first thing I did was a CRAPLOAD of concept art. This wasn't even nessecarily related to the game. I drew loads of different rooms, different people, different places, used different colours... And then I'd pick out pictures I liked for no particular reason and I'd go, "Hm, this suits the theme." or "This looks like ass, but it suits the style." or "I like this, but it's not the style I'm looking for, unless I like ass."

Then I'd maybe draw using that style a bit more. Basically, getting used to it and getting a feel for it. This also allowed me to start imagining certain in-game situations and how I would style them.

Then I designed the characters that would play a large role in the game, and a few important rooms. I saw them and decided it was definately the style I wanted.

My graphics aren't even particularly good, but the point is I'm keeping a similar theme throughout the entire game and it also allows me to use more creative 'camera' angles and suchlike. It also prevents me from going overboard with the Gradient tool  .

SKETCHING YOUR BACKGROUNDS IN MS PAINT FIRST.

This is something I recently discovered, and I love it so much. It's so so so much fun. For a few boring hours you sketch crap pictures in MS paint, but when you're done you can flick through 50 crap pages and pick any background you want to work on. It makes production faster and also somehow allows you to make more interesting 'camera' angles, etc.,

If you DO do concept art, you might want to create all of the backgrounds together as otherwise you could lose the style, working on them over a long period of time. So something I found insanely useful was to simply sketch out, VERY roughly, every single background I needed in MS paint. It took about an hour to complete crap sketches of over half the games backgrounds. It also made it easier when it came to colouring ETC.,, I could pick a background I wanted to work on and mess with it until I was happy.

This also means it's incredibly easy to import that background into AGS, test the proportions with your main character, and make any alterations, WHILE IT'S STILL JUST A CRAPPY SKETCH.

This is probably one of the most useful things I have ever learned.



I haven't released this game, but I did work on loads of RPGmaker games which I completed but never released due to the insane file size (lowest being 36mb) and the fact I'm on dailup... I do, however, LOVE making HUGE games. And have FINISHED huge games. So this next project will be my first HUGE game that is somewhat under 20mb.

Now you know you're not listening to a homeless hobo.

[MachineElf]

Good thoughts, Yufster. Backgrounds are a pain in the ass after a while... The problem I get is that I just HAVE to see what they look like when finished once I've started drawing one. And that I'm not extremely good at drawing so making them look good takes some time.

What usually makes me want to puke in amateur games (and pro ones too, sometimes) is interface. If you really want a Sierra style, or old Lucasart/film style, interface, make sure you make use of it. Personally I like simpler interfaces better, both making and playing. Saves a lot of time making all these interactions as well... Intuitive is the key word, but not always easy to accomplish. Oh, the glory days of Broken Sword (BS3 for PS2 coming soon!)...

[m0ds]

What bugs me is, why does everyone have to make a comical game? Someone make something serious, please!


m0ds

[Meowster]

I agree, there are too many wayyy too comical games. Won't mention names, because I think all the games here rock, but if a game is called, "The wacky and zany adventures of Zoopy Zidane!" Then I'm less likely to play it, as Zaniness generally is a collective term for "This has no plot and weak jokes that Barney would not be found dead with".

If a game is called something like, "The Legend of Leitors Edge" (Just a random example... ) then I'll be intrigued and dying to play it from the second I hear the name.

Maybe it would help if people thought of themes for their game before creating it? Like if you think about it, a lot of people might come up with "Humour" as a theme. If they replaced that with maybe some other theme, they might find their game gets depth, and the humour is less forced and so actually funnier.

Look at Toonstruck. That game was loved by loads of people and I don't know why. The graphics where absolutely horrific, they looked like a badger that's gone through a colour wash and then a cheesegrater.  They hurt your eyes with all the bright colours, and didn't fit together nicely. The humour was absolutely crap. Really forced. That game was intended to be funny first and foremost, and it just wasn't.

Whereas MI, a game that is noted for it's good humour among other things, was meant to be a pirate game first and foremost. The humour merely decorated an already fantabulocious game.

Fantabulocious is not a real word.

[m0ds]

"That game was loved by loads of people and I don't know why"

Two words;

Lloyd, Christopher.

I never finished that game. In fact, I threw it away. We need more thought and emotion prevoking adventure games. I think Byzantine will play on one of those two to a certain extent. What I'd be very impressed to see would be a tear jerker point and click.

m0ds

[Meowster]

Ah yes, Christopher... He's so funny ^_^

Mmm, I definately tried to incorporate feelings, emotions and atmosphere in my game, which was great because I had a plot and story and script to start with, so I could read over it again and again to see if it made sense. That's something else, actually

SCRIPTS, PUZZLES AND PLOTS
Get these complete before you start your game. You can get people to review your puzzles for annoyance/difficulty level, add changes or jokes, fix up any plot holes and add scenes. You may write the basic plot, then write it in some kind of an awful story form... write it as though you're writing a walkthrough for your own game.

EG
PUZZLE 1 - Ian has to find a way to fall asleep. Remember Grandpa? He’s knocked out cold. Why? Ian picked up the thing of sleeping pills, but it’s empty. In the kitchen there’s a note on the fridge from the parents to Grandpa, saying they’ve gone out and have left his New Sleeping Pills in the attic where Mia can’t reached them. ---  

Then you might compile a list of items you'll need for this puzzle. When the entire story is finished you can look over it and decide on new cutscenes.  I decided to add a cutscene featuring the villain to introduce him to the player, so that when the player meets him in the game it's not as confusing and doesn't require as much explanation. This is much easier to do in a script than a game

Second, another useful feature is that you can compile a list of rooms you'll need.

Thirdly, you can jot down any ideas you have. Amazingly, everybody has loads of ideas every second (wow) and most of these you'll forget. For instance, early in the writing stage I thought there would be two main playable characters. In the dream world, if you were Aya, you would see Ian as an unrealistic, hunk version of him, whereas if you were Billy, Aya would appear as having an unusually large bust. I scribbled this idea at the bottom of the page to review it later, but cut out the entire idea. Still, loads of ideas come to great things, unlike that particular failure .

Writing the script, puzzles, etc., before you start the game is a major plus. Just take the time to do it. It's actually more fun that way, really.

PS: Doing this with RPGs is f***ing Bullshi*, it takes pages and pages and there are ALWAYS plot holes.

[Sluggo]

Yeah, my game's sereous (ie no jokes), and it would be cool if everyone found the story as powerful as I do. So, uh, it's supposed to be a tear jerker. It's been in production for 2 yrs and still seems to be the only one in that particular genre.

What bugs me, or rather, what I'd like to see more in games is animation. I haven't actually played many of the newly released games so I'm just assuming that there isn't much in them. But I really like seeing animations; I know I feel kind of cheated when the game creator displays a message that says he/she was too lazy to do an animation and just use your imagination. It's not a huge deal or anything, but animations are cool! I'm trying to do a lot of animations in my game, but it's pretty easy with 16 color 320x200 EGA graphics.

[Femme Stab Mode >:D]

I like my games with jokes  . I am working on a serious plot to make a game of after I finish Slime 2 and Evil Teddy and the secret life of bras.

[Stickieee]

What bugs me, or rather, what I'd like to see more in games is animation. I haven't actually played many of the newly released games so I'm just assuming that there isn't much in them.

I just played Sam n' Max for five minutes, and I'm inclined to think there's more animation in the first three rooms than there is in ten average AGS games counted together.

So I too want to see more animation in games. It makes the world feel so much more alive. Like in The Trials of Odysseus Kent.

Another point which bugs me is the textboxes saying "Look at that <object>! Doesn't it look badly drawn? Wow, it's wonder you can recognise what it is!" And understatments of that sort. Makes me feel like there wasn't even the slightest effort put in it. Yuck.

[Femme Stab Mode >:D]

I'm working really hard to put animation in my game and it has multiple endings and I can't draw so it's hell.
I think it's okay to modify and make up the plot as you go along because I don't work on art first but script and draw at the same time and make up the plot as I go along.

[Las Naranjas]

It's easier to make a tear jerker in an Adventure Game than in cinema or literature.

So I wrote an article about it.

[Dave Gilbert]

Comedy games aren't BAD per se, it's just that the humor is often misplaced.  Humor should come from the situation, not out of the blue.  

One of my favorite (and often quoted) examples of misplaced humor is from the game "The Night Before."  The main character has lost his memory, but if you try to pick up a rat, the character says: "No.  I don't touch rats.  Not since the... incident."  This character is supposed to have NO MEMORY, yet is talking about his past.  The character is ruined, all for a crap joke.

Consistancy is hard.  Avoiding bad jokes is also hard.  I'm doing a fairly serious/dark game, and I always have to stop myself from adding all sorts of silly responses to various actions.  Is it instinctual?  What's up with that?

As for animation... yeah it would be nice.  It's HARD though.  For most of us, we're more writers and storytellers than artists.  Asking others to help with your artwork isn't a bad thing, as long as you have a consistant vision that you can describe to your artist.

EDIT: Las: Where's that article?  I'd like to read it.

[PeaceMan]

I think that there was a mistake in Toonstruck because when you have to set the clock in Zanydu the guard says that his shift finishes at six but you have to set the clock to half past six to make the guard leave.

There is even a bug in Sam & Max when you are in the Mystery Vortex because sometimes you can't get through the right door to find the Moleman.

Anyway I think that serious adventures are OK if they are interesting. But I think all games have an element of humor.
The Feeble Files has a serious sounding plot but has jokes and humor all the way through it. Full Throttle has humor but not too much to turn the game into a comedy.

I'm not too bothered about how much animation is in a game or how good graphics are its the quality of the story and plot that count.

[Las Naranjas]

The feeble files was intended to be completely comic and just ended up annoying.

[Dave Gilbert]

The Feeble Files took an extremely serious theme and exaggerated it to the point where it was humorous.  The "I Love The Omnibrain" show still kills me.  I adore SAM, the homicidal killer robot.  His lines were brilliant.  ("Permission to slaughter them all, sir!")  However, the game was let down by frustrating, nearly impossible puzzles and a sllloooowwwww walking character.  

Toonstruck had its high points as well.  The cut scenes with Christopher Lloyd were funny and well done, and the second half of the game was much more enjoyable once you got rid of that stupid zany pink sidekick (Flux? or something?  What a asanine creation).

[Meowster]

Consistancy is hard. Avoiding bad jokes is also hard. I'm doing a fairly serious/dark game, and I always have to stop myself from adding all sorts of silly responses to various actions. Is it instinctual? What's up with that

This is the humour that often turns out the funniest, because it's a response that seems funny to you, or that appeals to you, whereas if you have a situation where you're thinking, "Right, well, they're standing here about to board the train, so lets think of a joke, anything at all." you're more likely to put forced humour in it that stands out and is in effect, painful to read.

I'm not trying to make BR a funny game, there's supposed to be SOME humour, but a lot of the humour is coming from the situation. Apart from that, I'm terrified that it's going to end up just not being funny.

As for adding animations, remember that about 7 people worked on MI2, which was full of animations, for over a year.

[Dave Gilbert]

I know what you mean.  In my game, I have a character that can easily turn into the "zany sidekick" stereotype if I'm not careful.  He's the ghost of a murdered 1920s lounge singer named Joey.  He makes a few wisecracks, hits on the main character (who is female) and in general acts like the sleazy lowlife he is (or was).  But the humor has a reason for being there.  Joey is making these jokes to prevent himself from going insane.  He's not happy about what's happened to him, and there's an edge of bitterness and nastiness to the jokes he makes.  It's a balancing act.

That's what makes the Gabriel Knight games so good - that wonderful balance between seriousness and humor.

[DragonRose]

That's what makes the Gabriel Knight games so good - that wonderful balance between seriousness and humor.

I definetly agree with you on this one, Dave.  I don't think that a game where there is NO humour, NO lightheartedness, could really work.  Not just games, but also in movies and books as well.  There are moments when there is humour in real life, even in the middle of serious situations, so it makes sense for there to be humour in your stories, even if it's a serious story.  In Macbeth, you have the Porter. In Hamlet, you've got the gravediggers.  It's difficult to argue that these characters aren't funny, and it's impossible to say that these stories are comic.

Also, adding comedy to a serious situation increases the contrast between the serious bits and the silly bits.    

Bah, I'm probably not saying what I want to very clearly.  I may add more later.  

[TerranRich]

Hmm, in my game, By the Sword, I'm trying to balance light comedy with seriousness. The plot overall is serious, and the comedy I hope won't overrun it like Space Quest.

I've noticed that there are two types of (non-romantic) comedic movies: those that are hilarious and off-the-wall funny, and those that are about life, and the comedy is almost second to the drama. Examples? (1) Dumb and Dumber, BASEketball, etc. (2) American Pie 1-3, ... um... can't really think of any more at the moment. But I must say I enjoy type 2 comedies more than type 1 because of the balance of semi-drama and comedy.

[Sluggo]

In Macbeth, you have the Porter.

It's debatable whether Shakespeare actually even wrote the Porter into that play.

I kind of disagree with you also. I don't think you NEED humor in a story, I mean there are plenty of stories without any; I can think of several operas and ballets, although I do like it when it's included. It can add something to your enjoyment, but I don't think it's necessary.