What do you do when someone offers your (free) game asking for money?

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Thought that was what the money he charged for was for.

Anyways, I'm not advocating for the guy, I'd like to see his site shut down.

[Ryan Timothy B]

I'd like to see a hacker shut his site down.  I like that ending better.

[Dualnames]

You have all the rights for your own games and it's your choice whether they'll get published for money or not, not some

Spoiler

fuckass

[close]

choice.. oh boy do i get mad!!!

[alkis21]

Just a quick note to say that I haven't forgotten about this one. News will be posted soon.

[skitzo]

I will just reply to the starting post since that is all I read.

I say if there are people out there that find sites that make you pay for point and click adventure games from 15-20 years ago then let those dodos pay and download.
Me I search the web for everything FREE. It might take a little more time to find a site that hosts free downloads but to me it's time well wasted and hard earned money saved.

2. If you are the creator or anything that is meant to be free then confront the person peddling it and beat the snot out of them till they stop marketing it.  No one else deserves that money but the person that spent their time creating it. The other guy is just a crook.

[Hudders]

Is it not fraud to call your website "free game downloads" but then charge for the priviledge of downloading them? It seems like it's free in name only.

Many of excellent games were made by their authors without any financial demands. In this section, you discover a volume of just such games, and you convince yourself of their indisputable qualities. Amuse your leisure by games, that has been and will be forever free. Furthermore, you locate here pleasing fan-made remakes of former classics, amateur-made games, and many other full games to download.

Note that that's his empasis on "forever free" and not mine. His logic sure makes my mind boggle.

[EldKatt]

Seems like everyone is mad at this guy for charging money for freeware games.

Seems like only a few people are mad at this guy for infringing on copyright, which is the only real crime he actually is committing, and which he would still be committing even if he didn't charge people.

This intrigues me.

[Snake]

Um, well, he makes money off our games that we make as a hobby - free downloads.

If I missed what the original topic was, sorry, but anyone making money off our free games isn't right - fuck them.


--Snake

[Hudders]

Seems like everyone is mad at this guy for charging money for freeware games.

Seems like only a few people are mad at this guy for infringing on copyright, which is the only real crime he actually is committing, and which he would still be committing even if he didn't charge people.

This intrigues me.

To be perfectly honest I don't think he is infringing on copyright. Legally, at least, I think he's perfectly within his rights to distribute freeware with or without a cost involved. If he's not claiming any rights over the software, (eg all games are in their original condition, including reference to the original authors), and the originators didn't specify that the software was for personal or non-commerical use only then he's well within his rights.

Sure you have the right to be pissed off about it and you could ask for your work to be removed from the website, (provided of course that it is your work and you can prove you are the originator), but as you can't demonstrate any loss of earnings I shouldn't think that you have any legal right to demand its removal, (although thanks to the RIAA you'd probably find it an easier point to argue than in the past).

Think of it this way: you spend a night in a hotel room and take the Gideon Bible from the bedside cabinet. You then sell that Bible on eBay for 50p. Are you infringing copyright? You haven't claimed to have written it or even printed it yourself so why would the Gideons get pissed off?

[Nikolas]

Hudders: Copyright infrigment is the only thing he's guilty of actually! The opposite of what you think.

Copyright means the right to copy if you switch words! It means that I, the creator, hold the right to do whatever I want with my art/music/game/etc. If I want I can take it down, I can stop anyone from having it, for whatever the reason. I have the right to know who the game is going to, etc. Since the guy is hosting the files, he is breaking that exact right!

[SSH]

Unless your game includes a licence agreement that prohibits commercial distribution, I'm not sure you'd have much of a legal leg to stand on.

[Nikolas]

Again, actually.

Copyright does not need registration in 90% of countries, or something. You don't even need the (C) sign anymore. Anything you create is yours, unless you say otherwise or is a work for hire.

Anything not permited in the license is simply not permited! I don't have to cover everything in the license in order to cover my ass. I say what you DO get, not what you DON'T.

In my website you can get mp3s, and you used to be able to get scores as well. Apart from a copyright notice in the website, there's nothing else pretty much. This doesn't give them the right to take the mp3s, or even sell them, or do whatever they want. If they want to tell their friends, etc, the link is known. They actually shouldn't even share mp3s, but it doesn't matter in my case!

HOWEVER, when I found out that a random database of scores was HOSTING my scores and offering them, I contacted them and took them down, without much to ask from them! "These are mine and I don't want you to host them".

I'm no lawyer, but the above experience makes me think that I was right and they wrong. As for the guy with the freeware games, I have huge faith in Alkis! He made a company in Greece for crying out loud in order to sell DiTR! I'm sure he can tackle the bastard...

(Imagine that the guy we/I call bastard some other people consider a saviour of old and forgotten games, of games that otherwise would be lost, of someone who is providing a service in society!!!!!!!!!)

[Hudders]

Copyright law does not exist to allow you to do what you like with your work. It exists to protect you from people who would copy your work and distribute it as their own or create derivative works based on your original idea.

Copyright does not need registration in 90% of countries, or something. You don't even need the (C) sign anymore. Anything you create is yours, unless you say otherwise or is a work for hire.

Anything not permited in the license is simply not permited! I don't have to cover everything in the license in order to cover my ass. I say what you DO get, not what you DON'T.

It might not need registration but you still have to prove that you are the copyright holder and contact the guy to take the thing down. If he isn't satisfied that you are the copyright holder then you will have to go to court over it and suffer and long, costly, and laborious process to get what amounts to a piece of code removed from a server.

The burden of proof is still on you. He is currently legally within his rights to host the files until someone, (preferably a judge), tells him to stop doing it. Even then it would be difficult to argue exactly what law he has broken since the games in question don't carry a copyright notice and it would be unlikely that he would suffer a penalty.

By creating a freeware piece of software without any kind of licensing agreement or copyright notice, you are not defining how that piece of software can be distributed. If I write a book and identify myself as the author, I cannot complain when I find that book being sold second-hand in Help the Aged - the only right I have to complain is if my copyright has been violated: if someone has passed the work off as their own or has copied large parts of it in their own body of work.

As I said before, you have a right to complain and you have a right to be pissed off but when it comes down to it, you're not actually losing out from this practice and what is happening is not exactly against the law. By all means ask for your work to be removed if you feel personally agreived and in future make sure to pepper your opening credits with a copyright notice and licensing restrictions, (eg. for personal non-commerical use only). The Creative Commons has a fantastic framework for authors to easily mark their creative work and I suggest that everybody who is concerned about their work appearing on other websites, (for profit or otherwise), uses it.

[Nikolas]

Copyright law does not exist to allow you to do what you like with your work. It exists to protect you from people who would copy your work and distribute it as their own or create derivative works based on your original idea.

Not only! It protects your work and you can do whatever you want with it. It is the right to copy! If I want I can stop you from taking my music, or my game, for whatever reason (of course it's bullshit and of course it can't happen really, can it? but it's just an example).

I will repeat that I've had my scores somewhere and when I contacted them, they immediately took them down. I also have my scores in ISMLP (to be removed soon, however), and in order for them to get there, they contacted me first. Do you think that they could have my scores "legally" any other way?

It might not need registration but you still have to prove that you are the copyright holder and contact the guy to take the thing down. If he isn't satisfied that you are the copyright holder then you will have to go to court over it and suffer and long, costly, and laborious process to get what amounts to a piece of code removed from a server.

True enough, but he is crediting the right people, so this might not be much of a problem now would it? Additionally, with games all you need is the folder with the workd you've done, a thread in AGS maybe (though not sure how it goes with a judge and a simple internet forum), maybe some magazines (for example ATOTK has been mentioned a lot of times and always been credited to crystal shard. I doubt anyone could battle multi lingual, multi country magazines that all mention the same thing and try to take credit for something they've not done. In addition, for the music part, I have all project files.

But of course it is a hussle to go into court, no doubt, I agree. Still I imagine it's also hussle for the guy breaking the copyright.

The burden of proof is still on you. He is currently legally within his rights to host the files until someone, (preferably a judge), tells him to stop doing it. Even then it would be difficult to argue exactly what law he has broken since the games in question don't carry a copyright notice and it would be unlikely that he would suffer a penalty.

But that's the whole point!: It's not within his rights to host the files, unless he's taken permission. Just because something is free it doesn't mean you can do whatever the hell you want with it. You still have to take permission in order to host, distribute, etc.

By creating a freeware piece of software without any kind of licensing agreement or copyright notice, you are not defining how that piece of software can be distributed. If I write a book and identify myself as the author, I cannot complain when I find that book being sold second-hand in Help the Aged - the only right I have to complain is if my copyright has been violated: if someone has passed the work off as their own or has copied large parts of it in their own body of work.

I don't know about books, but let me ask you this: I've done music for freeware games over here, for AGS games, and for free. Do you think it's fine someone selling MY music, MY mp3s, somewhere? Books are not digital, they are hard copies, etc.

You are actually saying that any mp3 you find on the Internet, you have a right to sell?

As I said before, you have a right to complain and you have a right to be pissed off but when it comes down to it, you're not actually losing out from this practice and what is happening is not exactly against the law. By all means ask for your work to be removed if you feel personally agreived and in future make sure to pepper your opening credits with a copyright notice and licensing restrictions, (eg. for personal non-commerical use only). The Creative Commons has a fantastic framework for authors to easily mark their creative work and I suggest that everybody who is concerned about their work appearing on other websites, (for profit or otherwise), uses it.

I think it is against the law, I think the guy, either he knows it or not, he's not doing something good, nice, or even legal, in the end.

I have NO games, or works of my own in that website, so this is not personal. I don't have anything to lose or gain if I contact the guy. Alkis has! (he's got a game on that website), and many others do. And I certainly don't see many happy faces around here, with 20+ games on that website.

The point is that even without licensing note, or copyright note, it still doesn't give you the right to do anything with a game apart from play it. And ok, common sense and all that, you can help out, and people do, and there is a grey area, that is called abandonware, and in addition here in AGS we have the bicylcle for slugs (or something), which has pretty much all games in there (Rui?), but it's not the same.

Ignorance of the law does not make it right. If I didn't see the stop sign on the road, I'm still at fault, should I crash. On houses there isn't a sign that says "don't enter this is private property", simply because you don't need to! Same with music, although some pissheads think otherwise: You can't just take an mp3 and do whatever you want with it. And in any case where exactly should the license go about that? (I don't like CC personally, but that's a different issue). With games it's pretty much the same. There is a game, for you to download and enjoy. After that neil! You can tell your friends (it's quite easy to point them to the right direction), you can make a database with links (how is that wrong?), you can share your opinion (called review), etc. You CAN'T host it on your own! You CAN'Y charge for "services" on work that other people have done!

_______________

Actually I know someone who somehow, got his music into the Batman begins trailer! He is credited in yahoo trailers or something. But he had no idea! Can you begin to imagine how faulty is that? Because with your thinking it should be alright actually to do that. Heck, with your thinking anything free on the Internet can actually be sold! :o

[EldKatt]

It astonishes me how many people have these strange ideas of what copyright is, and insist on spreading them with the claim that they're right, without bothering to learn about it. Stop making shit up and go educate yourselves. This goes for just about everyone except Nikolas here...

Copyright gives the originator of a work exclusive rights to reproduce and distribute that work, among other things. If someone else wants to do any of that stuff, they need permission from the copyright holder. With no license text included, a "freeware" game is by default protected by copyright to the full extent. If you want people to be able to distribute your game by putting it up on their website or whatever, you need to expressly say so. That's why we have things like Creative Commons, GPL and so forth. I could go on, but the four links above (chosen semi-randomly through google magic but still good) are probably more than enough to correct most of the misinformation here.

[Emerald]

Nikolas is right. Anything you write, draw, type, compose, paint, invent, code, crap out, etc. is automatically copyrighted. You can register with a copyright firm if you want, for peace-of-mind, but as long as you have proof that you did it before somebody else, you'll be fine.
It's not like a criminal court, where you have to prove the defendant guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. All you have to do is convince the judge that it is most likely your work, rather than the other guy's. Nothing definitive is required.

A 'copyright notice' isn't required either, and only really comes up when you sell or lend your copyright to a company, which is a different issue altogether.

[m0ds]

Copyright is a big concept, in my eyes/head, a bit like forming particles that existed a billionth of a second after the big bang that created our universe I don't think we can ever fully get our heads around it. That could just be me, though. I'm still learning about copyright and its power, there's a lot to grasp. I think we may be deviating from the point here though, and randomly arguing quite harshly at each other 

I'm dissapointed when I see people trying to sell other peoples work without their permission. It's just one of those things that kind of seperates those that are really passionate about something with those that are unfortunately more passionate about ripping off other peoples work for their own benefit.

I know this guy has a disclaimer, but its quite ridiculously written & anyone can see what he's doing is not in the best interests of anyone else. His best interests would be to offer links & update frequently. That's someone who's being genuine & actually passionate about what "we" do. Take adventure-archiv.com for example. I take these people very seriously because they take what I do very seriously too. Therefore they have a genuine site with a lot of eager visitors, and they're not ripping anyone off or doing something thats, well, just not etiquete in this industry. I'd be surprised to learn anyone here not wanting the same peace of mind over other websites and their distributions or publications of our works, though that doesn't mean I don't expect there to be someone who just wants to use everything we do here for their own greater good (in a nasty infringing kind of way ).

As I see it, you do get copyright over your works, instantly - but if you really want to prosecute someone over an infringment of your work, the best thing to do is "register" said work with the world federation of copyright peoples inc. Mass, USA, or whatever. As people have said... But searching google actually suggests that kind of approach is a bit too anonymous though. Still, someone copyrighted something of mine for me once, a film script or something, using the internet, but I'm not sure what net resource or script that was TONG I believe Saying that I've been in shit with copyright infringment myself, Universal were one step from shutting me down in the film world, and as you're aware constantly working around it in the game world too (teh F word!1).

But where I'm bending the rules I try and make sure its as straight as I can get it. The better option would be these companies give me a million pounds to make something official and shut me up for a while But because I have certain respect its not like I'm doing anything to rip them off. This guy IS. Like I said, LINKS and updates. Thats a good, healthy for new visitors, respectful of authors kinda website. Asking someone to part with their money is NOT his decision.

All I can do is urge developers to use disclaimers in their games a bit more often. Hard code a splash screen or a few lines in the Install program to secure your rights and then you'll have every reason to get your own back when the situation arises. Also, if someone like him sees your disclaimer, he'll think twice about asking people to pay for it.

Something simple, or something more complex explaining how your original work (art, music etc) is not to be sold or modified etc, could help you in the long run, or just help the goodwill of our community, and stop these bastards trying to make a quick buck from what we do without our permission.

This Game is a Freeware release by (your name/company name) and must not be sold for profit. If you have paid for this Game please contact email@email.com

Good luck! And no more stressing over copyright please!!!  :

[Hudders]

As mods said, copyright is a big, complicated issue and I don't think anyone in this thread is considering all aspects of it when they have posted, (to EldKatt - I suggest you read everything provided in your links before you accuse anyone of not knowing what copyright is and isn't).

I don't want to keep dragging this out and continue a petty arguement over something which, for the majority of us, isn't really an issue so instead I'll just reiterate what I said before:

If you are the author of a game that is on that website, contact the webmaster and ask for it to be removed. Ask politely, be courteous. There is no point arguing the ins and outs of copyright law when nobody has even tried this approach yet. I'm sure that if the webmaster is a reasonable human being, they will comply with your wishes, (if he is an astute human being, he will ask for proof first).

If he refuses to take your game from the website, then you can debate copyright law and what your next steps are. But you aren't giving the guy the benefit of the doubt, frankly. At first, when I came to this topic I was dead against him but now I find I'm siding with him on this issue, particularly since a lot of people here seem eager to jump the gun and follow the RIAA method of copyright bullying.

[EldKatt]

(to EldKatt - I suggest you read everything provided in your links before you accuse anyone of not knowing what copyright is and isn't).

OK. Seems like you're implying that I have here made some or other incorrect statement about copyright myself. Is this interpretation of your vague little remark correct? If not, I apologize, but that's the only way I can make sense of it.

If that is what you meant, though, I would appreciate if you point out where I'm mistaken instead of just implying that I am with no specific claim, which is a pretty pointless debating tactic that probably nobody is falling for.

The bottom line I guess is please say what you really mean instead of wrapping it up in a rude little implication that leaves me guessing what you're trying to say.

[Hudders]

(to EldKatt - I suggest you read everything provided in your links before you accuse anyone of not knowing what copyright is and isn't).

OK. Seems like you're implying that I have here made some or other incorrect statement about copyright myself. Is this interpretation of your vague little remark correct? If not, I apologize, but that's the only way I can make sense of it.

If that is what you meant, though, I would appreciate if you point out where I'm mistaken instead of just implying that I am with no specific claim, which is a pretty pointless debating tactic that probably nobody is falling for.

The bottom line I guess is please say what you really mean instead of wrapping it up in a rude little implication that leaves me guessing what you're trying to say.

I didn't want to get into it. Suffice to say that it isn't as cut-and-dry as you paint the picture. You were making out like everyone who has previously posted on the subject of copyright was an idiot who didn't know what copyright was. But then your links don't seem to match what you're trying to say.

Eg:

While copyright law makes it technically illegal to reproduce almost any new creative work (other than under fair use) without permission, if the work is unregistered and has no real commercial value, it gets very little protection. The author in this case can sue for an injunction against the publication, actual damages from a violation, and possibly court costs. Actual damages means actual money potentially lost by the author due to publication, plus any money gained by the defendant. But if a work has no commercial value, such as a typical E-mail message or conversational USENET posting, the actual damages will be zero. Only the most vindictive (and rich) author would sue when no damages are possible, and the courts don't look kindly on vindictive plaintiffs, unless the defendants are even more vindictive.

This would seem to apply in this instance.

Anyway, whatever. I retract the statement because, as I said, I don't want to continue the arguement.