About graphics and artists

[Nikolas]

I cannot find anything offensive to your posts. Maybe because I don't do grahpics... or games, but that's another story.

What is important in your posts is that it appears that you have missed a lot of AGS games that are decent.

I will make a (personal) list for you to check and tell us (me in PM if you want) what you think. Cause I happen to think that the grahpics in the games I will mention are fabulous.

Apprentice I & II
Mind's Eye
Prodigal
Spooks
Hallway of Adventures
Duty and Beyond
THe Family Treasure
The Adventure of Fatman
Anna
Cedric and the Revolution
Emily Enough: Imprisoned
Norman Cooks in 'Search for the Don'
Platformerius: The Ninja Incident
Stargate Adventure
Knightsquire

And many others which I fail to find or remember. honestly if I left something behind I do appologise. This list is highly personal. But judging from the game you've shown us (downloaded it), I'd say these games do resemble it or even are better than it.

Anyway judge for yourself.

I'm not defending blindly any AGS, or any game at all, just saying that although what you say is true for the 90% of the games, the 10% is a rather large number to leave out Not to mention that this 10% is the games that get the most attention and most praise, also because the creators go for it...

[Louigi Verona]

Thanks! Great list! I'll start checking it right away!

[Louigi Verona]

playing apprentice now... This rocks!!! And the drawings are so nice!!! I'm impressed! 

[Nikolas]

haha

told you so... :p :p

BTW, for the other games, go to the completed games forum and search for them. Most often you will get 2-3 screenshots and the link to the download page It should be sufficient to know if you will like them or not.

As for the brilliant platform you've linked us to:

Brilliant but the graphics are not as detailed or pluralistic (:p) as some AGS games. But indeed a very nice platform game which I will continue playing. Thanks for that.

[Louigi Verona]

yup, the graphics are sort of styled there. close to minimalistic. but they do look cute, don't they? 

[buloght]

But things have been developing . Look at Apprentice series, Cedric and the Revolution, Emily Enough, Legend of Lost Lagoon, Drugbust, Woodlands, etc etc. The standard of graphics in AGS games is getting more professional. Apprentice series was professional graphics. The people are taking graphics more serious than they used to and some of the games that are in production are amazing looking.

[edit] oops, only read till end of first page and didn't realise there was an argument already here haha, sorry, mine irrelavant.

[edit] Thanks for those special mentions nikolas 

[Alynn]

Creating a "Team" is more difficult than you think, especially in a large scale project. Any member of this team is under no obligation to complete their end of the deal.

None of us get paid for this. Many of us are older, and have jobs and responsibilities, and we cannot commit ourselves to 100% game making. Real life likes to come in and keep you from doing other things.

I've been directing and running an RPG game that has been in the works for 2 years... We have all the music, all the plot, maybe 2% of the dialog, and maybe 5% of the coding, much of the graphics are done for the characters, but no maps... Our head coder had to leave a long time ago, we still haven't had anyone that could replace him (IE look at his scripts and understand what he did with it).  Two years, and that's what we have finished... and in reality, we are moving along at a decent pace for the amount of people we have and where our strengths lie.

Creating a team isn't about care... believe it or not... STR has resized and redone graphics from another game engine... and it looks shotty... but the thing is, that's how it is supposed to look. 24X32 pixel character sprites, and backgrounds that are probably more saturated than they need to be. But that's the universe, and that's exactly how it should be, I care enough to make sure the game fits with what it should be.

Maybe it's the fact that I started gaming with a colecovision.. that back then all you needed was a few blocks, 16 colors, and you were set... those games were fun... so fun in fact I played them for hours... I have emulators for old game systems... sure the graphics are garbage compared to today's systems... but by god they are still damned fun....

So I guess what I'm saying is... if you need gorgeous graphics to enjoy a game, then I feel sorry for you, because graphics aren't everything.

[Erenan]

BAN GOOD GRAPHICS!!!!11 LOL

[Louigi Verona]

Alynn, your post is interesting. Nevertheless, I feel that many people have way overreacted to what I said and started telling me they're sorry for me. Oh my.

So I guess what I'm saying is... if you need gorgeous graphics to enjoy a game, then I feel sorry for you, because graphics aren't everything.

Never said that. I don't think graphics are everything. I myself like text adventures and stuff. However, simply saying that graphics aren't everything is a little tricky. It's like saying that the appearance of a person is not that important as his charming personality. Yet, when you see an untidy person, who smells sweat, I don't think your first impression would be positive. I know older people who are used to non-graphical games think that graphics are a 'mainstream' stupid thing. This is very arguable though. What's most arguable is that method of comparing different genres, which are actually incomparable. It's like comparing a bird and a table.

And if it's not too much trouble, please don't write that "I am sorry for you" stuff. I don't think my initial post was offensive and never in that post have I said that graphics are everything. And generally, I am satisfied with what we discuss, since to me it gives exactly what I asked for - an insight on the graphics aspect from the point of view of game creators.

Creating a "Team" is more difficult than you think, especially in a large scale project.

How do you know what I think? I never said anything about things being easy.

Sorry, if I am a little overreacting myself now, but I'm just a little bit tired of people telling me things I never said.

Yeah, it's difficult. Especially over the Internet. It is much easier though when people can meet in real life. Alynn, do you guys meet in real life or is your project over the Internet?

[Vince Twelve]

You'll have to forgive people for being a bit defensive.  But you have to understand that your first post did come across as quite offensive.  And saying "I do not wish to offend anyone" doesn't exactly make it all better.  ("Hey lady, you're kind of chubby... no offence.")  And what's more, you did it with your first post.  Welcome to the boards, but don't start off with a mildly insulting comment.

You said that it was difficult to take these games seriously because of their amateur drawings.  These are games that we, the members of this community, have put hundreds of hours of one-man work into and you're saying that you can't take them seriously.  Furthermore, you specifically directed this at "awarded games" which are generally of a higher quality art-wise in the first place.  I understand what you're trying to say, and I don't mind it.  I just hope that you can see why some people felt a bit insulted or offended.

Perhaps if you told us which awarded games you couldn't take seriously and explained why they turned you off we could see what you're getting at and it could be a helpful comment.  But a general "most" of these games have too-simple drawings doesn't tell us how we can improve.  Because "most" of the people making these games know that graphics are, to some extent, a very important part of these games, and they are doing the best job they can to bring their gaming creations to life. 

And I don't think it's wrong to feel sorry for you if you can't look past that.  I don't feel sorry for you because you "think graphics are everything" or something like that which may or may not be true.  I'm just a bit sorry that you won't be able to play some of the great games that you can find on this site and take them seriously and enjoy them for the great story and gameplay experiences that they offer.  Because, if you can't, you're really missing out on some great games.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Hopefully my previous posts were not among those which put you on the defensive, Louigi, as that was far from their intent; rather, my goal was to try and educate you in the very real distinction between large scale products and homebrewn games made by people in their spare time and with no budget.  As I mentioned before, scaling your expectations based on the situations surrounding the game is important to appreciating them for what they are; for example, Apprentice I and II were made by two people and Mind's Eye was made by one, and down Nikolas's list you'll find similar scale projects, most of them completed in a couple months rather than years, some even less.  The interesting thing to note is that, despite the relatively small teams and development times, some of these games are actually complete and solid adventures--quite an impressive feat if you ask me!

[Louigi Verona]

Vince Twelve: Yeah, I guess you are right... Sorry, everybody! I can see that my first post was indeed not a very pleasant one. I should have found better words. All I can say is that I honestly didn't mean to offend anyone.

The particular game which sort of pushed me away a little, because it had a difficult GUI (imho) and not too appealing graphics was 5 DAYS A STRANGER. I can see that it is a highly praised game. Moreover, as I am playing it, I do find myself liking it a lot, but my first impression was different... I am not sure what bothers me in this, relative to my own desire to make a good game. Will people who are not already interested in adventure genre play this kind of game? Or will they think it's crap because of amateur graphics? Probably that bothers me. Is it possible to make an interesting, good looking game if you are an amateur enthusiast?

ProgZmax: I am impressed by Apprentice. The reason for my initial post was, as I said earlier, my own desire to make a game that would look okay and I was wondering if it's possible. Now I see that it is and thanks to that great list, I am opening a new and exciting world of wonderful games.

[SSH]

SSH's PMX graphics are not exactly stellar, but they did not detract from the fun I had playing the game.

Wise words 

I think PMX suffers more from its history (games I-IX) than from its graphics!

When it comes down to it, there are different aspects to the graphics:

1) Functionality. A spade has to look like a spade and not a lollipop if some puzzle's logic depends on you connecting that you need to do something to the spade that wouldn't make sense if it looked like some random scribble. But the drawings can still be childish or low quality and be functional.

2) Beauty/reward. It can be nice to see a beautifully drawn picture, and sometime some graphics are a reward for a particular puzzle solution, or even for getting things wrong in  a game, but you don't mind as the animation that ensues is entertaining. This tends to happen more in commercial games, but can be very important. But you can get amusing animations of simplistic drawings that are still nice.

3) Story, Characterisation and Gameplay. I don't want a game to be a slideshow, even if the graphics are great. The balance between these aspects is what makes a good game. Some games are atrocious in one area but the other two are good and can still be enjoyed. 5DAS has some poor gameplay aspects (which you get used to as time goes on) and its graphics are more functional than awesome but the characterisation, plot and atmosphere are excellent. Al Emmo's demo seems to have great graphics but poor initial characterisation and plot, although these are supposed to improve later on.

4) Naivete/retro. Naive drawings can be deliberate and have a particular effect. Just as low-res or low-colour doesn't mean poor drawing.

5) Some more stuff that I forgot while writing this...

[buloght]

6) one that I find the most important is consistency. The entire game must look like one game ... you know fit together in one distinctive style.

Is it possible to make an interesting, good looking game if you are an amateur enthusiast?

Yes. Reference aforementioned list  And there are plenty even more not listed there.
- No Action Jackson
- Principles of Evil
- Robotragedy 1 + 2
- Chick Chaser
- Silent Knight
- etc
(next only demos, but amazing games capturing lucas arts style)
- Indiana Jones and Crown of Solomon
- Indiana Jones and Fountain of Youth

[Alynn]

There is a difference between "not saying something" and "implying something" your post implied all those things I discussed. Perception is what matters, not intent. I only intended to be funny when I made a comment about a coworkers breasts, but it was percieved as sexual harassment, and therefore IS sexual harassment.

Now onto what you posted after that...

Yes you can make a gorgeous game by yourself that will look professional, you can take AGS run it at true color 800X600 and spend 7000 manhours on it. You will get back what you put into it, if that is the sort of game you wish to make. However, it is still an amateur game.

We meet over the internet, but that isn't the main point. Even if we all lived in the same place, I work 50+ hours a week, I have a wife and kids to take care of, the others have school, sports practice, and whatever else it is kids do, and still attempt to have a life.

If we were getting paid by the hour, I'm sure everyone would be working their tails off (not just my team, but any amateur game maker out there). However even though we don't get paid, many of us Ã, put in hundreds of hours on our games, it's a labor of love.

When someone came along and says, "Eww, 240X320 256 color graphics, it's not even worth looking at," it is insulting. Little do you know that those tiny sprites make up 50+ hours of story driven plot and excellent gameplay, and intense character development.

When it comes to the amateur game making community, you can not let first impressions get in your way, especially when it comes to graphics. If you do so, you WILL miss out. That was my point, I wan't defensive, I was not overreacting, I was stating my opinion.

Now as far as adventure games... It's a strange genre, it's not as popular now as it was way back when, yet, I constantly see new adventures showing up in PC games. Games with adventure elements are still popular, usually paired with action(Silent Hill, Resident Ã, Evil). My experiences are, those that like fast paced FPS, and platformers, and need to constanly have something happening to be entertained, do not like Adventure. Those that like to think while constantly doing things, such as RTS, can go either way. And people that love puzzle games, and puzzles and general, like adventure.

Worrying about such things like "Will others like this?" is not what amateur game making is about, at least for me. It's about having a vision, creating it, and sharing it. You can't please everyone, so why try? Make what you enjoy making, please yourself, and be damned everyone else.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Ah, yes.  Buloght brought up what is quite possibly my most favorite AGS game:  No Action Jackson.  I'm not sure why, but the lucasarts graphics and retro feel of the game, not to mention the consistent art style and weird puzzles, really impressed me.  Granted, there are a few really odd bugs that were never fixed, like times where he'd switch to an AGS view that didn't exist at one point in the game and crash, but it was probably the first AGS game out that really impressed me.

[alimpo83]

I don't think that all the games(or most of them, anyway) in here have bad graphics, I just think not everyone is an artist. Most of the crappy looking games are very entertaining and funny, but I too understand that "amateur look" can drive someone away at the first look, it happens to me. Sometimes I come here looking for a game to play, and all seem to look the same!

Sorry the others, but for me the best looking games here are the apprentice series. The quality of animation and drawing is great, from the characters to the backgrounds.
I too wanted to make something a little different, so I started a "myst" type game(not as nearly as good, but enough to get that magical world feel...I hope!)
Check some screens at http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=28220.0

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

There are quite a few games that while in a different style are just as pleasing to look at as Apprentice.  Take your time and look through the games page for the other tiles in Nikolas' list and other games like Gladiator Quest and Automation.

[Louigi Verona]

When it comes to the amateur game making community, you can not let first impressions get in your way, especially when it comes to graphics. If you do so, you WILL miss out.

Good point! Haven't thought about it like that.

Worrying about such things like "Will others like this?" is not what amateur game making is about, at least for me. It's about having a vision, creating it, and sharing it. You can't please everyone, so why try? Make what you enjoy making, please yourself, and be damned everyone else.

I guess you are right.

[RedBlob]

I thought I would also give my 2 cents.

As some might now, we are a husband and wife team.
She create the 3D backgrounds and characters, and I animate the characters and fix up the AGS programming where she run into difficulties with it.  Since none of us can compose and play music, we have to borrow from others for that part of the game.

At first we used paint to make drawings. Mine looked absolutely horrible! Then we send months teaching ourselves 3D programs, and now my wife turns out really stunning backgrounds and characthers.
To get into 3D is quite a learning curve, since the documentation are very limited for the programs out there. But that is an aside.

As everyone said, it takes many hours to create a good game. It doesn't happen overnight. The joy is in putting it out there after it has been finished and to be jugged by your peers.  Of course it won't ever be a professional game, but it has to be evaluted in terms of how much time and effort that was put into it and what the result was of that effort. 

My thought is, if you don't like your graphics and don't have artistic skill in the sense of hand drawings, get into 3D.