MAGS Discussion - How to get more participation

[Stupot]

I noticed that MAGS don't mention this anymore, but was it decided that public/outside graphics are allowed now?

Yes that is correct. The used to be a rule that no pre-made assets were allowed but we loosened that rule to try to lower the barrier for entry. So yes you can use existing graphics etc, if used sensibly And aim to give credit where it's due.

[Stupot]

I realised today that we haven't had more than two entries at all this year.

Between January and October we've had an average of 1.8 entries. August's experiment of hosting the jam concurrently on Itch.io failed to increase numbers.

What is keeping people away?
I understand finding time is hard for a lot of people but there must be something else at play.

Are people not seeing/checking the theme at the beginning of each month?

Are the themes themselves not exciting enough? Too specific, too generic?

I'm interested to know if anyone has any thoughts as to what puts them off and what might entice them to have a go.

Cheers.

[eri0o]

I have no knowledge about other people so I can only speak for myself. I have made a few entries that I didn't manage to bring them to completion, and at the same time I don't think it's fair to import my half- finished code to a next mags opportunity, so I end up starting over in the other month. But I am feeling a bit overwhelmed with things at my work so when I have free time I find it I don't want to spend it at the computer - my work is mostly in managing people and projects these days and it can easily empty my social batteries.

Other than this the themes have felt interesting, so haven't had a problem with that.

Now, to switch and not talk specifics about me. Other game engines are more like a product, and they have a company or entity behind that cares about evangelism or there is some worry about getting people from outside in. I play Magic The Gathering and I see the people that work there in R&D talking about how to get new people to start playing, how to do retention, and how to get people that have stopped to come back.

AGS is not a product and there isn't any sort of behavior of evangelism on the community - most people feels more pragmatic about best tool to the job or whatever other behavior, but in general does not reach to other people outside the community to talk about the engine. A counter example is Edmundito's talk this year at narrascope, which was specifically talking about AGS to people not from the community.

This topic and the awards topic feels like community dwindling - or at least forum presence dwindling. This doesn't mean reduced numbers of users necessarily, as there's a quite few numbers of developers that use AGS that simply never use the Forums. I see a lot of AGS games on itch Io that don't mark the games as made in adventure game studio and some jams specifically disencourage using it - GMTK jam is the one I think here.

These are a bit of unfiltered thoughts on topic of community growing/retention in my way to work, mostly because I am curious about what other people think about this.

[heltenjon]

Do you think a link to the current month's MAGS contest on the front page would help?

Or posting next month's rules early, giving a bit more time?

[glurex]

(...) and some jams specifically disencourage using it - GMTK jam is the one I think here.

Yes, I have noted that too. I never understood this prejudice since, although AGS is mainly used for adventure/point & click, it is somewhat versatile. While the game is 2D* and goes up to 1080 (I don't know how the engine works with various 4K animations), till now I haven't found anything in it that I can't do in, for example, Unity or Godot.

*Yeah, I know there are modules for a kind of 3D, but clearly, it's not the engine's strength. And that isn't a problem for me.

I don't believe in good or bad game engines... there are engines optimal for the game you want to develop. And AGS seems very competent to me.

[Cassiebsg]

For me is mainly time. I just don't have the same time I had to dedicate as I used to. And I also want to finish my unfinished previous entries...

Or posting next month's rules early, giving a bit more time?

This would not help, for me anyway, because that's not the kind of time I'm lacking. I know I can make a game in a month (done it before], because I know I can also make a game in 24H (also done it before). The kind of time I'm in lack is the one where I can sit at the computer and not feel guilty that I should be doing something else in RL that needs to be prioritized (because if I don't do it, nobody else will).

[Kastchey]

For me, announcing the theme earlier would help. I only get so much free time a month (not unlike nearly everyone else here, I bet) and there's a constant battle of priorities, in between work, parenting and other random (but important) stuff. I may get 15 hours to work on a game a month, or I may get zero. Having some extra days would increase the chance I squeeze out those several hours I need to finish a small game.

The themes are good and I almost always remember to check them on day 1. More often than not, they spark an idea that I like and I feel I could use a distraction from the long term projects (not just games... I have an unhealthy amount of hobbies and the shiny bauble syndrome). So in my view at least, there is nothing wrong with the competition itself. It's just me and my lack of time. And sometimes focus.

[RootBound]

Hey all,

While discussing next month's MAGS theme with @Stupot I proposed the option of bringing back the "finish a previous unfinished MAGS entry" option which has been done in the past, but not for several years. I like the rules for it that are formulated here.

Ultimately, for December I went with a different theme (still to be announced), but it seemed worthwhile to post the "finish an old unfinished entry" idea here and see if it's something people would like to see again in the future, perhaps once a year.

Any interest? Would that make people more likely to finish old entries and create more participation in the competition? I think the rules linked above are pretty good.

[Kastchey]

Yes please! These should happen more often.

[Ponch]

For me, it comes down to time. I used to have quite a bit of free time. Now I don't have a lot of that. A side effect of getting older and having a job that demands more of me than previous jobs did in my younger, more carefree years. Goodness, real life is so inconvenient! I suspect that's true for a lot of the users here, at least judging from the ages I see at the bottom of the page, in the users birthdays area (mine included).

I really like the notion of "Finish Your MAGS" returning as a theme. Heck, if anything, I'd have a hard time choosing which unfinished project to finish!  Why, it should be an annual thing! Once a year, we could all look forward to a great deluge of hastily assembled games given a second chance at life!

Also, I had no idea some places discouraged the use of AGS.    GMTK jam, shame on you! 

[Kastchey]

Why, it should be an annual thing! Once a year, we could all look forward to a great deluge of hastily assembled games given a second chance at life!

I shied away from suggesting this myself, but I had similar thoughts. "Finish your MAGS entry" every December!

[CaptainD]

Goodness, real life is so inconvenient!

       It's soooooooo true!!

The days seem to go by so quickly that I can't keep up, but I have often wondered if - at least sometimes - the time for making a game shouldn't be extended to 2 months. (Yes I know that goes against the ethos and even the name of MAGS...) Again, perhaps this is something that could be considered for once a year. I know that for one month the chances of me being able to think I have time to work on something are tiny, but 2 months just maybe... anyway just thinking out loud, I appreciate that probably won't be a popular idea.

[Stupot]

I like the idea of an annual "finish your MAGS" round, but I'm torn.

The two options would be:
(1) to have it as that month's theme, in which case it isn't fair to November's winner, who might want to choose their own theme. It also excludes potential first-timers.
(2) to have it running alongside the chosen theme. But with entry numbers already so low, it doesn't seem wise to split the pack.

Of the two, I'm personally leaning towards (2). It seems there is genuine interest in the idea of a "finish your MAGS" round. But I wouldn't want the main theme to suffer.

The good news is I've already set up a thread for MAGS December for RootBound's original theme Forbidden.


If we were to have a concurrent "Finish you MAGS" event running, I would want to make it a separate thread and have voting separately on each thread so that the regular MAGS and the Finish your MAGS entries aren't competing against each other. One benefit of this is you get a cheeky extra shot at getting a slot in the MAGGIES shortlist.

Shall I go ahead and set this up?

[heltenjon]

I like this idea, too. There is the small problem that these games will have more time, but I am in favour of everything that can get us more games.  Such a thread could in theory run all year.

[RootBound]

@Stupot With regard to the previous winner not picking a theme, it could simply be that the "finish your entry" winner doesn't pick anything, and the winner the month before the finish-old-things theme picks the theme for the month after it. Just one possibility, of course.

[Ponch]

it could simply be that the "finish your entry" winner doesn't pick anything, and the winner the month before the finish-old-things theme picks the theme for the month after it.

I like this idea.

[Kastchey]

Same. Makes perfect sense to me.

[cat]

In Scrum there is a saying: If you can't finish your sprint in time, make it shorter.
The reasoning is, a shorter time frame is easier to plan, track and execute. I think making MAGS two month long could have the effect of dragging on and being more demanding. I'd rather go the other way round and make a MAGS theme where you have only two weeks to finish your game and the rest is reserved for testing and improving.
Or, we could have another OROW.

[eri0o]

I too prefer shorter sprints as the scope is smaller they are easier to execute - planing is hard either way I think.

[heltenjon]

I think a great motivator would be if many of us played the games and provided feedback. To hear what people think about your creation, praise, friendly advice for improvement, basically just other ags-ers taking an interest in what you do. Making games in a vacuum is a lonely business, and encouragement is crucial.