Suggestions for competitions and activities

[Gilbert]

No, there is no official change, whether a sprite follows the restrictions is decided by the rules set by the host of the certain round. The bottom line is, whether an entry qualifies as a sprite for the expected purpose of the round, so it doesn't rule out any possibilities of character art.

[loominous]

The bottom line is, whether an entry qualifies as a sprite for the expected purpose of the round, so it doesn't rule out any possibilities of character art.

I don't understand this line, perhaps you could rephrase it?

And it seems like you have misinterpreted the point of the Character Competition: the aim would be to create sprites, and not concept art involving characters.

[Gilbert]

My point is, I disagree the suggestion to make another extra competition, unless it can be proven to be vastly popular.

For Sprite Jams, the host can set the rules to whatever he wants, so I don't think it is necessary to have a pixel art competition and another "not necessarily pixel" art competition. If you have an idea for a certain Sprite Jam challenge, just manage to win a round and you can be the host for the next round.

[loominous]

You don't see the catch 22 in this system? Seriously?

[BOYD1981]

if you want to show off your artistic talent there's always the critics lounge, you don't have to wait until somebody hosts a competition with rules that you don't bitch about.

[MoodyBlues]

I thought the Critic's Lounge was for getting critiques, not for showing off.

[IndieBoy]

Okay guys enough is enough. This bickering is totally spoiling my impression and experience of the AGS forums. As I see it there has been less and less activity in the competitions. However the recent spritejam was quite popular, and all we can get out of this is an arguement? I agree there is no need for a new competition, the spritejam is run like any other competition in the forums. The rules are set by the host. However there is no doubt we are biased with low res, and this is no surprise since that the majorty of adventure games are in low res. I see competitions as a bit of fun, something that will test me and improve my skills and also imspirational. I hope we will eventually all agree one day. And note to all future hosts of competitions remember there are a lot of talented people here and you don't want to over limit who can enter.

[Misj']

I propose that the Sprite Jam is officially turned into a pixel art competition - something which would neccessitate little or no change - and that a Character Competition is started.

At the moment there is no regular activity involving character art where people of all styles are allowed to participate. As character art is perhaps the most important graphical element in a game, it would seem like a dedicated activity where everyone is allowed to enter would be highly called for.

As there is an obvious craving for pixel art activities with technical restrictions, a dedicated activity also seems called for.

It should be obvious that I agree with Loominous on this point.

As a reaction to Gilbet: in the few SpriteJams that I've hosted, I particularly tried to focus on the character (either by means of a small back-story or by 'skills') rather than the limitation (this is also why my last Jam was not pixel but size oriented by stating that: 1.70 meter = 25% of the Y-screen resolution). Nevertheless, I felt - also from some reactions to them - that it was obvious to me the sprite jam is not the right place for this.

Like Gilbet, IndieBoy wrote that he didn't see the need for a new competition, and stated that he sees 'competitions as a bit of fun, something that will test me and improve my skills and also inspirational'. The thing is, however, that the only competition that really helped me improve my skills was Loominous' Background Blitz Workshop Edition...and we all know how that ended. So if that is one of the 'goals' for the competitions, than they have failed...at least for me.

The point is, I agree with Loominous. I am often too limited by the technical limitations set to competitions (I would love to participate in an animation competition...but I don't work with pixels, and classical animation is not possible), which is the reason why I don't participate in competitions that often.

Ps. Sure...the winner can host a new workshop, but if the host prefers pixel- over line-art chances are high that the winner he declares matches close to his or her own style. This is only natural. Consequently, you end up in a vicious circle.
Pps. Partially relevant, my envision of Workshops can be found here.

[loominous]

This bickering is totally spoiling my impression and experience of the AGS forums.

Oh, this idea was put forth with the intention of actually ending this argument. I totally agree that it spoils the mood, and is bringing out really ugly sides of this community. So I thought this would be a nice compromise, where pixel enthusiasts can enjoy limitations, while allowing everyone to participate in a character competition.

I really thought this was a question about unreflectively following traditions, which you can't blame people for, which is why I've tried to appealed to the participants to break with it.

It turns out people really don't care how hi-res enthusiasts are treated, so here I tried appealing to the objectivity of the moderators, who are supposed to have the good of the entire community in mind.

However there is no doubt we are biased with low res, and this is no surprise since that the majorty of adventure games are in low res.

Sure, and I don't of course blame people for their preferences and hope that the pixel community prospers in this day and age.

The curious thing is how you go from "I like lo-res" to "let's not allow anything that's not lo-res". This would make total sense if you wanted to shake things up - kinda like throwing a costume party every once in a while - but as the majority is already using lo-res, why would you to deliberately exclude hi-res entries? I prefer hi-res myself, but why on earth would I want to exclude lo-res?

Somebody's now going: 'yea, yea, but it's the right of the host'. Sure, it's within the rights of the host, but even if it was within the rights of a public bar owner to ban black people simply because he prefers whites, he would still be a immoral jerk for doing so. Just because something is within your rights doesn't make it moral.

Secondly, and to adress:

I disagree the suggestion to make another extra competition, unless it can be proven to be vastly popular.

We don't actually know how many hi-res people are out there as they're rarely allowed to participate. The sprite jam is by all measures a pixel activity, so just like myself, people might not even bother checking whether they can submit a regular entry. To make sure I wasn't basing this on a false impression, I checked the introduction of the last 50 pixel jams to check with reality:

50 rounds - 6 allowed hi-res/hi-colour entries.

The Sprite Jam is for all intents and purposes a pixel art activity; I'm just asking for a character activity where everyone is allowed to join the fun.

[bog]

i'm into pixel art but i think loominous' proposal is a good one. sprite jam should either loose color and fixed size restrictions (and have something like Misj's restrictions) or be renamed to pixel sprite jam and have some other competition for any kind of sprites.

[Dualnames]

As a man i know once said.. You can draw cool with less colours or you can't f#$%#^ draw.

[Misj']

As a man i know once said.. You can draw cool with less colours or you can't f#$%#^ draw.

Did he do classical- or pixel-art? - Because colours are counted differently. To show what I mean just look at my latest entry in the
SpriteJam: from a classical point of view it has 9 different colours: 3 shades of blue, 4 shades of grey (including black and white), 1 shade of brown, and yellowish skin. From a pixel point of view it has 2986 different colours. This means that for a pixel-artist this image is not within the limits given by the competition while for a classical-artist it is (providing evidence that a limit for one medium (pixels) can exclude another (paper or vector)).

So while I completely agree with this man if he's a classical artist (and chances are that he was considering the comment) it does not by definition apply to the level of  pixels as well.

Ps. I do not consider this (or Dual's) post off-topic, but I appologize to others if they feel it is.

[loominous]

I remember proposing something along those lines a while ago, that you'd have separate restrictions to accommodate both traditional and pixel art, as colour amount do mean different things when you're talking about different media.

So the host could set pixel art restrictions a la: 40x40, 12 colours, and then traditional restrictions, for instance: 12 colours, which would means 12 colours + anti aliasing shades.

This would allow everyone to participate, with restrictions intact. Thought it was a nice compromise, but I don't recall the response.

[Khris]

I don't see the harm in adding another competition; if nobody's going to participate, it's going to die like the other ones. If people do contribute, we gained a popular competition.

I'm a low-spec fan myself, but I don't see the need to impose that on everybody (other than maybe the fact that people are more likely to participate if there are strict guidelines).

[SpacePirateCaine]

If I might throw my two cents in, I think that as opposed to making it another competition where the goal is to create a sprite, it should be based more around the character creation process, maybe something where the contest starter comes up with a theme, like: You have to come up with a design for a main character in a piratical caribbean setting. The character is young and a little geeky, weak - and is described as 'looking like a flooring inspector'. His motivation is to become a pirate.

Then the contest entrants would sketch, design and ultimately release a few images to illustrate their concept, before the sprite phase (or even the final sprite, high or low-res as per the entrant's needs and/or the rules of the creator). The main difference between this and the Sprite Jam would of course be in that the new contest is all about 'concept', a 'Concept competition', if you were, where the Sprite Jam focuses around creating a finished, viable product within very specific constraints.

The entrant whose character design fits the concept the best, regardless of their medium, would be the winner in this competition, and it would revolve not around a specific set of artistic skills so much as creativity and the ability to develop a character to convey a certain 'look'. This is a very important step in the game creation process, and I imagine would help people work on their character development skills.

The main gripe about the Sprite Jam is that a lot of people do find the rules to be very constricting. I'm particularly hard on my contestants, because I require that the sprite will integrate well into a game, and like to limit size and palettes to a large extent. This isn't always going to be the case, but ultimately the contest is about building artistic sprite-creation skill. A large percentage of the time in a 'low-res' environment.

Obviously, this does tie together with the Sprite Jam in a number of ways, but it does focus on a different skillset. The Sprite Jam is about creating an image - at times is also something of an art contest. This concept contest would, I imagine, broaden the base of people joining the contest, and if it didn't, then such is life. I think it does have potential.

[loominous]

SpacePirateCain:

Sounds like a neat idea, and like you said, would lessen the overlap, so that people attending the Sprite Jam might actually contribute to both, giving it a potentially very large base.

Would be great if a less controversial figure, such as yourself, would organize it.

Edit: Just realized that another benefit over the Character Competition would be that it could also deal with stuff like vehicle design, which is really fun and would provide variation.

[Dualnames]

First, well, I do just realized my post was received weird and all. So well, not really sure if your idea loominous would actually make those competitions plausibles, but well, we can always try new stuff and see how it goes. You see low res is quite easy for everyone to enter so it's more user friendly than it is considered. Also let us not forget that AGS used to handle lower resolutions not such a long time ago, so it is obvious that low res artists would mostly join those.

Anyway, if everyone feels like high res or more colour limit (or no colour limit at all), it's fine by me and I think it has serious chances of success.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I don't really see a point to a separate sprite competition, honestly.  If someone wanted to design a sprite jam they hosted around fleshing out a character then there's no rule against it, but a separate concept for such a specific topic?  I just don't see the logic in it.  All of these competitions were designed more around having fun than actually being real competitions with massive, detailed structure, concept art and design stages.  Efforts like that, in my opinion, are better put to use as tutorials since you are essentially showing your technique more than you are making an entry, and it has an unfortunate side-effect of excluding a large number of low-to-moderate skilled members who already feel daunted by drawing something in Paint.

The forums could certainly benefit from more tutorials, but more competitions?  I don't think so.

[loominous]

ProgZmax:

Not sure what idea you're arguing against here. The first proposal was simply to create a general sprite competition where everyone would be allowed to join, and turn the sprite jam into an official pixel art activity for lo-res enthusiasts to enjoy. The second was for a Concept Competition.

You seem to have the impression that I was proposing a Character 'Workshop' as a regular activity, which I'm not sure where you got from.

The Concept Competition, which SpacePirateCaine suggested, would be about concept design, which is basically about capturing a specified character/vehicle/else in everything from an extremely simple doodle to elaborate artwork, and is used for everything from lo-res to 3D.

As it's all about ideas and design and not skillful rendering, basically a complete newbie could come up with a stick figure drawing which would "win".

So it's really an idea competition, rather than a drawing/painting competition (though I really prefer the word 'activity' for all these).

This would allow anyone to join regardless of skill level, and since it's such a vital part of any type of character creation process, it seems like it would strongly belong in a game forum.

The forums could certainly benefit from more tutorials, but more competitions?  I don't think so.

I can understand that you feel this way, as you're able to participate in all activities as you please. A clay animator/3D animator/Classical animator can't. Am I to assume that your feelings about this is along the lines of: "They're minorities, who cares about them"?

[Dualnames]

I don't recall progz ever entering a music competition. Well, as i said low res is easier...than high res is. Concept competition sounds like a good idea though.