So in working on the female spriteset from the past few days, I have learned quite a few things about drawing characters..
This made me go back and revisit the main character artwork, to try and make him a little nicer for my upcoming Episode 3.
I have an OLD and NEW in the image below, and would like some critique, and maybe some ideas on how I can make it fit better into the backgrounds of my game. One of the comments I get consistently from people are the way the art feel of the background (rendered photo-realistic) doesn't mesh well with the pixel-art sprites for the characters. For game 3 I am trying to fix this, but I REALLY like the way the backgrounds look, so I don't want to change it up. I was thinking about running the pixel art through the same conversion/filter that I run the background images through, to see if it works well, and I have attached the screenshow below.
I am really getting into this art stuff, so any help on making myself better will be appreciated!
(http://www.billandnicole.net/games/new1.png)
This shows my old character sprite from Episode 2, marked OLD, alongside my new redesign, marked NEW.
The new one has re-done hands which look less blobby, broader shoulders, closer arms to the torso, closer legs, and a turned-out foot to make it look more casual. I also adjusted the look of the collar on the jacket and redid a bit of the shading on it.
(http://www.billandnicole.net/games/new2.png)
This image shows my 2 images on a background from my new game. I sort of like the way the pixel art looks on the photo-realistic backgrounds, but I get negative feedback about it saying things like it takes away from emersion and it doesn't fit. I want to have as good of a game as possible..
(http://www.billandnicole.net/games/new3.png)
This is the same set as above, but run through the conversion filter I use for my backgrounds.
(http://www.billandnicole.net/games/new4.png)
This is that set on the same background.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Bill
The new pose look very, very stiff, especially compared to the old one- with the arms hanging like that it's really a step backwards. He looks like locked in a shrug, which could be softened by lowering his shoulders a little. Also, avoid symmetry: Bend one arm a litte, let him have one hand in his pocket, whatever.
The hands come over very small too- place your hand against your face, it is usually the same size (One "artist's rule of thumb is that palm plus fingers should be the size of a face, from eyebrows to chin). The new version does a good job in fleshing out details (fingers, crisper shading), so that's a good thing.
I don't mind the mix of realistic backgrounds a clean pixel-pushed sprites at all, since you're going for a realistic look it doesn't clash too much.
All this is not meant to sound harsh, you are up to a decent sprite here, so I hope you can work with my suggestions.
Thanks so much for the critique! I took your pointers, and modified the new one a bit. I dropped the shoulders some, and put a hand in the pocket, also making the other hand proportionate. I was going to make one of the knees bent slightly, but I didn't know how to do that without the other leg looking too long. Any pointers for that? Or other tips?
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/new1.png)
Thanks again!
Bill
Already looks much better in my opinion, well done! As for the "leg bent", that is indeed tricky. I took the liberty to take three low-res characters with quite unique poses to give you some pointers.
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5890/unbenannt1kopiekcz.png)
(Ravi from "Sphinx" / Guybrush from "MI" / Indiana Jones from FOA)
The feet more or less stay on the same horizontal line and simply move outward, and the curve of the leg follows that movement. Since your character has pretty dark clothes you won't be able to play much wth light/shadow, but that shouldn't matter.
Not how these characters appear hardly "stiff" at all, even though these are their standing frames. Especially the leftmost one (Ravi from "Sphinx") has a lot of little curves that make his pose dynamic, while your character is basically a straight tube. Soften that outline and make it a bit more dynamic. It's hard; I had several people showing me how to do it when I did my first spritework, but since you're going hi-res, you have a lot of pixels to use and *can* achieve great results that might even look smoother than in low-res.
Very helpful, thanks! I feel like I am learning so much with this stuff. Its kinda fun :)
Here is my latest revamp. Critique, comments and ideas on how I might be able to make it better? I am afraid the jeans might still be a little bit tube-ish, or square.. I tried making part slimmer, and pulling some in around the knee, but it didn't look right.
edit: In seeing it, its almost like the left leg (the character's right leg) is too thick. But I measured and it is the same amount of pixels across until the bottom where the jean material bunches up some..
(http://www.billandnicole.net/games/newken.png)
Thanks again!
-Bill
Quote from: poc301 on Tue 21/04/2009 05:02:59
edit: In seeing it, its almost like the left leg (the character's right leg) is too thick. But I measured and it is the same amount of pixels across until the bottom where the jean material bunches up some..
You measured wrong. I just measured the thickness of the leg at knee height and the other leg was 15 pixels and the other one was 17,5 pixels. Also the pose doesn't look too relaxed since he's leaning heavily. You have chosen high resolution so you should use it also. Try to define the shape of the leg (look up some anatomy references) and then lay the jeans on top of that shape.
Quote from: poc301 on Tue 21/04/2009 05:02:59
(http://www.billandnicole.net/games/newken.png)
That guy is saying: "You wanna piece of me, boy?" :-* :=
Don't like the combination character-background.
Quote from: rbaleksandar on Tue 21/04/2009 07:35:12
Don't like the combination character-background.
I will rework the sprite some more today and post another version.
As for not liking the character-background combo, I have found that people either like it or don't (which is pretty normal, I guess lol).
I am wondering if a more digitized photorealistic character would be better. But then I also like the look of the pixel art characters on the worked photorealistic backgrounds.. I dunno..
-Bill
What's the requirement for the characters to move? I could see the game working with static characters or characters that move in a limited way, (single frame change of positions, etc), using photographs of people rather than hand-drawn sprites.
I'm thinking kind of like the CSI games; they have photo-realistic backgrounds and minimal character movement, (nobody walks anywhere - animation is limited to speaking and small movements of the hands and arms). Of course, these are presented from the point of view of the player character, but I can easily see it working just as well with the player in the frame, shown from a third person perspective.
One problem if you go down this route though, of course, would be the requirement to source photographs of the same actors in subtley different positions, including the frames necessary to create a talking animation. Probably too much of an expense, (although, saying that, you could use portraits for dialogue so as to dispense with the talking animation alltogether).
Quote from: Hudders on Tue 21/04/2009 12:10:44
What's the requirement for the characters to move? I could see the game working with static characters or characters that move in a limited way, (single frame change of positions, etc), using photographs of people rather than hand-drawn sprites.
I'm thinking kind of like the CSI games; they have photo-realistic backgrounds and minimal character movement, (nobody walks anywhere - animation is limited to speaking and small movements of the hands and arms). Of course, these are presented from the point of view of the player character, but I can easily see it working just as well with the player in the frame, shown from a third person perspective.
One problem if you go down this route though, of course, would be the requirement to source photographs of the same actors in subtley different positions, including the frames necessary to create a talking animation. Probably too much of an expense, (although, saying that, you could use portraits for dialogue so as to dispense with the talking animation alltogether).
Its a full-moving game.. Animations, walking, etc. I COULD change the backgrounds up to be hand drawn stuff, but I rather suck at that, and I have 90% of the backgrounds for my games in place and ready to go. So I'd essentially be scrapping the project.
Plus, like I said, I kinda like the feel of the 'enhanced' photo backgrounds with the sprite characters.. I dunno.. :(
-Bill
Quote from: poc301 on Tue 21/04/2009 11:56:13
As for not liking the character-background combo, I have found that people either like it or don't (which is pretty normal, I guess lol).
What I'm talking about here isn't personal opinion mixed with feelings ;) I'm talking about the art itself. It's like taking a movie and put a cartoon character in there without any work done to mix them both good. The style that you use for your background is totally differen from the (pixel)-art you're using to make your character. Either pixelize the background or change the character. Another way to do the trick is to stick to Hudders's suggestion. It's not necessary to make hand-drawn backgrounds. You can always make some kind of collage with photos and put a pixel-character. I've seen this many times and it looks really great. So better change the background in your case and not the character. Don't make it so washed up...But hey - it's your game after all ;D Do whatever you want and like to. ;)
Quote from: rbaleksandar on Tue 21/04/2009 14:09:13
What I'm talking about here isn't personal opinion mixed with feelings ;) I'm talking about the art itself. It's like taking a movie and put a cartoon character in there without any work done to mix them both good. The style that you use for your background is totally differen from the (pixel)-art you're using to make your character. Either pixelize the background or change the character. Another way to do the trick is to stick to Hudders's suggestion. It's not necessary to make hand-drawn backgrounds. You can always make some kind of collage with photos and put a pixel-character. I've seen this many times and it looks really great. So better change the background in your case and not the character. Don't make it so washed up...But hey - it's your game after all ;D Do whatever you want and like to. ;)
I understand/appreciate the difference between the 2 styles, and I completely do like the analogy you made about movies with cartoon characters in them. I really don't want to do hudder's suggestion, since I like the animation, movement of the characters. I kind of dislike games where the characters just move poses periodically, and don't want my game to be like that.
What did you mean by "collage with photos and put a pixel character"? Also, by "don't make it so washed up", what do you mean? The decolorization?
I really like the pixel characters I've developed over the past few weeks, and definitely want to keep them. Maybe I will work on pixelizing the backgrounds.. Take my existing BGs and work them over into pixel format or something.. I dunno..
But all things aside, here is another take on the main character standing image. I made him lean a bit less, and trimmed/evened out the legs some. Thoughts?
(http://www.billandnicole.net/games/newlegs.png)
Thanks,
Bill
Quote from: poc301 on Tue 21/04/2009 14:38:11
What did you mean by "collage with photos and put a pixel character"? Also, by "don't make it so washed up", what do you mean? The decolorization?
Here's a very good tutorial: http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=36985.0
Yes, pixelizing the background would be nice (IF you're not going to use photos and stuff for backgrounds).
Your last edit is much better :) Could work on the right hand a little bit 'cause it seems it has more elbow-joints than usual ;)
Quote from: rbaleksandar on Tue 21/04/2009 15:09:18
Quote from: poc301 on Tue 21/04/2009 14:38:11
What did you mean by "collage with photos and put a pixel character"? Also, by "don't make it so washed up", what do you mean? The decolorization?
Here's a very good tutorial: http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=36985.0
Yes, pixelizing the background would be nice (IF you're not going to use photos and stuff for backgrounds).
Your last edit is much better :) Could work on the right hand a little bit 'cause it seems it has more elbow-joints than usual ;)
Hahaha, the elbow joint comment made me literally laugh out loud :) I will work on that. I am also checking out the tutorial. Thanks much!
-Bill
I think the last edit looks much much improved from the first sprite. However I think his neck is a little off. Kinda like he'd spent a little too much time on computer. :)
Have you ever used a 3D program? There is one called DAZ Studio that is free. DAZ also has some free models that you can download. If you pose them and render them to a bitmap, you can paint your character over them and you would have perfect posing everytime. ;)
Of course, if you wanted to do photo realistic characters with DAZ, you could do that too. But it costs money to purchase new characters and morphs. :(
I have tinkered with Blender, so I could use that to render out some characters...
I don't know..
I tried converting the hotel background to pixel based art by tracing/drawing, but I have no clue how to go about shading the thing..
I don't know what I am going to do..
ORIGINAL:
(http://www.billandnicole.net/games/bg.png)
PIXEL BASED:
(http://www.billandnicole.net/games/bg1.png)
I tried doing shading based off light sources, but it was all just a bunch of lighter and darker overlapping circles from the brush tool.. I dunno..
-Bill
Even if you just kept the basic shapes, it looks miles better than the edited photo... That is definitely a step in the right direction...
EDIT: Just carry on with the shadows and colours like I have - literally just copying from the picture, which means you don't even have to work out where the shadows go. To be honest, I ran out of patience... :P
(http://www.freewebs.com/markbilly/editroom.png)
If you make it a little bit more choppy and add a retro-looking 3d character, it will look like Alone in the dark 1 ;D Cool :)
markbilly, I'm sure he'll work on the shades and shapes more. This is just the first drawing ;)
I came up with this (http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9481/mc0652.png) lame photo manipulation.
And after tormenting the photo a bit more, this (http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8536/mc0654.png).
Then the photo pleaded for mercy so I stopped.
Very nice :)
I was going to initially go for something like that look, but then decided it would make the game to hazy, or not have enough detail in it.
I am hard at work detailing the pixel-based version of the pic. This is what I have so far on the one room:
(http://www.billandnicole.net/games/editroom.png)
You've used too bright colors for the light (maybe comes from the fact that the lamps, table and TV set are totally black?). Hurts the eye omho.
It looks decent on my monitor- a bit less saturation/brightness won't hurt though. And it's a good style; if you can live with reconstructing your backgrounds, I'd say go for it!
Nice work, it's looking great!
I agree some colours need toning down (lights mainly), I was a bit lazy with them when I started...
The second of Kastchey's edits provides a quick and simple alternative, but yeah you lose a lot of detail.
Details could always get added to the picture later, or just copy-pasted from the first, more detailed version. But true, a set of hand drawn backgrounds will work a lot better than a set of lame (and I mean it) quickies like those two I posted, so if only Bill's not scared of redrawing all the backgrounds then I'd say he should go for it.
And the pixelated version of the hotel room is turning out nice so far =) I know it's in progress and you're working all the shadowing and details out yourself, but I thought I'd point out that you still need to outline the wall corner in the furthest part of the room, in the area where the sofa is. And the wall light over the sofa looks a bit more like a torch than a lamp.
Quote from: Kastchey on Wed 22/04/2009 09:18:37
Details could always get added to the picture later, or just copy-pasted from the first, more detailed version. But true, a set of hand drawn backgrounds will work a lot better than a set of lame (and I mean it) quickies like those two I posted, so if only Bill's not scared of redrawing all the backgrounds then I'd say he should go for it.
And the pixelated version of the hotel room is turning out nice so far =) I know it's in progress and you're working all the shadowing and details out yourself, but I thought I'd point out that you still need to outline the wall corner in the furthest part of the room, in the area where the sofa is. And the wall light over the sofa looks a bit more like a torch than a lamp.
Yeah, I hadn't gotten to that part of the room yet :) I was planning on working on that later this morning. I will re-do the 'torch' in the corner too. I noticed it did look a little bit torchey too haha.
I really like the way the room looks in this format, so I think I will be redoing my backgrounds in pixel format. It will take a while, but I should be able to get all 50 rooms redone in 2-3 weeks probably..
One more question about shading and stuff.. One of my favorite shows of yesteryear was Futurama, and I noticed the art style there doesn't use shadows or shading.. Its all solid colors and looks really good.
(http://www.blogiseverything.com/files/pics/Futurama_characters_small.jpg)
I wonder how this style would go with my game.. Its a little more cartoony than standard pixel type art, but has a simple and clean look, which I like..
Thanks,
Bill
How would it go, hm.. I bet some of your fans would go: 'O.o what the..??', and some: '..woah! cool!'
I'd say why not. Depending on how exactly you would execute this idea (more cartoony or more realistic way) it could be either a drastic style change or a subtle improvement, out of which both could work just fine.
I am going to do the hotel room and my character in both of those styles and post them for C&C to get a feel for it, and see what others think..
I have to admit, now that I am knee-deep in it, this whole thing isn't as impossibly tough as I thought it would be. Perfecting it, now that is another story :)
Thanks again to everyone.
-Bill
Ok, here goes. I think I have done all I can find to do with this with the exception of the television. Finished shading, adjusted the lights and the brightness of the wall..
For the television, I can do two things.. One is shade it as if a light were above the television out of view (thus the light pattern on the carpet in front of the television). The other is have some animated stuff on it in-game so it looks like the television is on.
Any more suggestions will be appreciated. I really like the way this sucker came out.
(http://www.billandnicole.net/games/detailed.png)
Thanks,
Bill
Whoa, that looks wicked! I think changing to this style would be a big progression for your game.
Really liking it!
I am definitely going to do it. I think it is going to make such a difference.
Here, I took a screenshot of the characters with that screen loaded into the AGS engine:
(http://www.billandnicole.net/games/screenshot.png)
I am sooo excited! Thanks to everyone whose helped me with this.
**Edit** I just noticed the shadow on Ken (the main character) is way too dark, and doesn't look right. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can make this look more shadowy? Maybe lighten it up some? Does AGS support alpha channels for shadowing, so it just kinda darkens the portion of the ground being stood upon?
Thanks,
-Bill
Holy chocolate! This looks really really nice! You get me excited too! Maybe when you're finished with this you'll make a deluxe edition of the prequels with same graphics? :P I'm just that kind of a player that can't play adventure games with real life photo backgrouds. I guess I'm just narrowminded. But this looks awesome! I'm really really excited.
Very nice! I thought that maybe a bit of color tweaking would make the image even more pleasant to the eye, and made this example (http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9100/detaileddesat.png) (hope you don't mind me doodling with your works like every single time). Also made some minor changes to the light&shadows (like added a light reflection to the bed cover and the ceiling over the second lamp).
As for Ken, how about you try a total revamp like you did with the background? As for now, the style of your new background looks alot cleaner than the character. Maybe you could try your previous idea of making a shadowless, solid color sprite?
Everyone seems to be overlooking this, so I wasn't sure whether to raise it or not, but isn't the line in the top left corner of the end of the bedsheet a mistake? When it appeared in markbilly's edit I assumed that it was just where he'd left it - incomplete. But now, every edit since then has retained the line...
I've checked and there's nothing like it on the original image, so, uh... why's it still there? ;D
Ha, there you go! See? It's much better now :) Needs more work of course but cannot be compared to its origin at all! :=
One big problem I've noticed now (missed that in your first image) - room is way too big for your characters. Try to resize it. Okay, beds are nice, a little bit too big, but that is not a problem. Now look at the fan on the roof...Height of the room is twice the size of your character - not normal unless your in a hall or something. Work on colors and shadows is also needed not only the one of your character.
Othewise I say very nice indeed.
Kastchey : I don't mind at all, thats a great improvement. Thanks for those edits. What exactly did you do to soften the colors? Was it a desaturation?
Hudders : I am not sure I know which line you're talking about. Do you mean down by the base of the lamp? Or the diagonal one down at the feet-end of the nearest bed?
rbaleksandar : I have a lot to learn, I know. But I am learning, and thats the important part. As for the size of the room, it is supposed to be large, but I see what you mean about being too tall.
Thanks,
Bill
I believe this is the line in question...
(http://www.novellice.com/art/screenshot_lineOfDoom.png)
Nothing else to add really, you're doing a fine job. In useless news, that little red bit was the very first use I got out of my new tablet...I've never used a tablet before. It was AWESOME. =D Carry on.
WOOHOO!
I removed that line one edit ago, so we're good to go :)
I will be giving you more tablet exercise in the near future, don't you worry.
-Bill
Yeah that's the bit I was on about. ;D
Desaturation, then hue value moved a bit towards red. Then +brightness and +contrast.