Maniac Mansion characters in DOTT style

[Mats Berglinn]

Actually, of the sprites Mats did, I thought thatthe Jeff one was one of the more successful ones (save for his far foot), but yours isn't too bad either, Scummbuddy.

I majoryly goofed on the jacket/ tie thing though -- wasn't thinking, I guess (I'd misinterpreteded your tie, Mats, and forgot about how the original character was done). My, I can be a bonehead sometimes.

Thanks for thinking that about Jeff, I appriciate it. The reason for that his left legs stands out a bit is that since he is a surfer I thought that he might surf a lot on his free time (when not in college and not worked at the pizza place), like the surfer stance would be stay in the way when he stands. That is also the reason for I made his legs slimmer but kept his feet quite big to keep balance while surfing, and gave him a sun-tan with some un-tanned spots under his eyes and right under his hair but that's hard to see.

Yeah, I see but I used the Syd sprite and not the box cover art when drew him so I had no idea. Maybe Ron Gilbert and the guys either forgot to add the jacket or they scraped the jacket but forgot to change the box art or something like that.

Scumbuddy: That wasn't so bad sprite of Jeff.

Do you guys have any suggestions or ideas of improving the other characters?

[big brother]

If you pay close attention to the sprites in DOTT, each one is based around simple shapes. Some of your sprites seem a little hesitant in their outlines and stiff in posture. (I can do a paintover if you want). Also, in DOTT, each character either has stick thin arms like Bernard, or heavy-set arms like Hoagie.

[JD]

Wendy's breasts look a bit odd. Comparing your last edit to the first picture you posted I think you've greatly improved them. Especially Jeff and Razor!

[Mats Berglinn]

Big Bro: Well, you could make a paintover so I see a bit more exactly what you mean. I have looked at the DOTT characters and compaired them with the MM characters (my attempts of making them DOTT-esque) so I understand what you're talking about but it would be good if I had some referrence for how to improve the characters even more.

About the arms: I've looked at the DOTT characters and noticed that they have varying thickness of arms depedning on their personality and character, like Bernard is weak because he don't work out much, Hoagie is fat, Weird Ed had worked out since MM (Bernard says so when you look at him) and so on, so not every non-fat character have that slim arms.

Def: I'll try fiddle with Wendy some more and then show whe looks better (I have made some changes but I'm going to fiddle around some more before I show).

Here's a modified version of dave with less stiff pose:



I used Thomas Jefferson as referrence since he is broadshouldered. Also I looked Bernard, Hoagie and Laverne's feet and saw that the left foot is at least two, three pixels higher than the bottom of their right foot and that the right foot also points dialognially to the right instead of front.

I'll make some more modifications on the other characters before I show them.

[big brother]

It's not as much about individual pixels as it is about the holistic feel of the sprite. Here's my version of the football guy. Note the dynamic pose and the linear expression of the form.

Keep in mind that Hollywood productions during the 80s teach us everything we need to know about the American teenager (Breakfast Club, Ferris Bueller's Day Out, etc.).

[Scummbuddy]

Oh, I love it!

When I get some free time, I'm going to redo my sprite of Jeff, and have always wanted to redo the cast. I very well may use Big Brothers as a good point of reference.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I did a version of razor that might help you, and I left bernard and your version of razor as a reference:

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Razor's becoming juuust a tad... no, scratch that. Waaaay to creepy and violent. I never thought of her like that at all...

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

People that wear spiky dog collars tend to be creepy.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

I meat a girl that didn't, actually. Beats me why she wore that thing.

Does Razor have to be like that, though? I don't see Dave asking a gal like that for help in ANY regard, especialyl a Dave whose friends include Jeff and Bernard and Wendy. It might be a mistake to make Razor too much like a punk person. Maybe a punk person wannabe, or something? Maybe more cool and skank or whatever than actually violent and agressive? More look less attitude?

EDIT - See, in the original - as you posted in an edit and which I only saw after posting my reply - she doesn't look at all that agressive. More like the chewing-gum-constantly type than the razor-wielding type.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

What's wrong with attitude?  Laverne is a total nutjob in DOTT, afterall.  Maybe Razor is a psychotic ex-girlfriend who still stalks Dave and secretly despises Sandy!

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Ayuh, maybe. Well, when you put it like that I only have one reply left, that is not a C&C - it's that, simply put, I don't like this agressive version of Razor, it seems to go against the original Razor. But this is in the subjective, non-argumentative field now, so it would hardly be worth it to keep at it.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

My point is as BB mentioned before that the MM characters were all designed as stereotypes of 1980's teens (although they were also inspired by people Ron Gilbert and Winnick really knew- Razor, for example, was based on Winnick's ex-girlfriend afaik).  These stereotypes were supposed to be intentionally over the top in their respective categories, so Razor would fit into the uber-punk chick of the 80s, and I don't think there's anything wrong with making her a bit of a heavy to offset the other female characters.  Anyway, this is Matts Berglins' thread and not mine so I'm done here ;>.

[Mats Berglinn]

Big bro: Well, the sprite of Dave looks quite good but in oppinion it's not DOTT sytle, rather Apprentice style. Plus not every character in DOTT have dot-eyes. Also it's way too adult and it doesn't go along with Dave's peronailty. Yes, he may be a footballplayer and a popular guy in college but he's a nice, caring leader-type. Here Dave looks a bit dumb, strong, depressed dude. Also, all the american shows that you mention, I haven't seen any of it so it's hard to know about american teenagers from the 80's if you haven't seen any of these shows (not everthing in America reaches swedish televsion you know. Of course a lot gets here but not everything).

By the way, the sprite was nice and it gives me inspiration of improvement.

ProgZmax: Yes, I totally agree with Rui about Razor. It's way too agressive and it doesn't fit DOTT at all, unless you're trying to do a "ProgZmax-style" pardoy version of MM and DOTT. If Razor ever looked like that it would scare the heck of the Tentacles, the Edisons and that Meteor. Besides I don't think Dave would be friend to anyone that is that aggressive. I meant no offense to you and your style, it's just that it doesn't fit with what Tim Schafer and co have in mind. If you look at all the characters in DOTT, none of them are THAT frightening.

[aussie]

Back to big brother's sprite, I personally find it flawless (as usual).

I don't know Mats, maybe this is a bit more along the lines you're aiming for?





I've only touched up the face a little. He no longer has dot eyes, he certainly looks a bit dumber, dreamy and good-natured.

In fact, if you play a little bit with his mouth and his eyebrows, you can achieve a wide variety of expressions (I guess that's the advantage of good sprites).

[Mats Berglinn]

He looks slightly better but I think he is not the Dave we all know. He's not exactly a guy that all gals go gaga for, which is what I believe Dave is. Anyway here's an update of all the MM characters, together with Bernard, Hoagie and Laverne to compair with them (I used all the character to check out the differnet lenghs compaired with each other (it's hard to see it here but if you draw a line at the lowest pixel of their feet they all match it.



I used the legs and shoes of Big Bro's version and the ear on Dave. I also changed the face slightly. For Wendy I changed her bust slightly and changed her shoes. For Syd, I made his sunglasses a line bigger so he have the really big glasses. For Razor I used Ozwalled's version of her to change the eyes, the mouth and the spikes around her neck. I also looked at ProgZmax's version for changing the legs. For Sandy, I took the new Razor legs and Wendy's shoes. I also changed her face a bit and add some hair at the left cheek. For Micheal, I wasn't sure what to change so I took a wild guess and changed his smile, his eyes and gave some lines in the tie (it's hard to see but it's there).

Any more improvements and suggestions?

[loominous]

To elaborate on what bb is talking about, or so I think, the problem with the stiffness and lack of body language is probably due to a focus on outlines rather than form/volume.

If you'd make simple manikins of these characters, they would look something like this:



The left one looks pretty much like a tin soldier and doesn't really express anything and the shape is very simple as well as pretty boring.

The center one, even just by looking at the form, suggests a confident, relaxed and strong character, and the right a nerdish/loony char.

-

Without a good understanding of form/volume, creating the center and right character from that angle would be fairly impossible, unless traced. Going from drawing outlines to creating forms with outlines is a rather big step, but you'd want to take it as soon as possible since it has an enormous impact on the results.

Using manikins, like those above, is usually the first step in getting an understanding. Try reducing objects to primitives (such as balls, cubes, cones etc), then connect them with lines. When doing this, try imagining that you're sculpting 3d dimensional objects, not drawing on a flat surface.

Which primitives, how they're placed relatively to eachother and in what manner they're squashed (such as the squashed ball for bernards head) will determine the characteristics and is usually the first step, long before any details such as clothing, facial features etc.

For instance, in the center figure you'll notice that the thorax "ball" (it's quite deformed) is larger than the pelvis ball. If you compare this to the right character, you'll notice the opposite relationship and this gives the impression that the centre guy is strong, whereas the right would be considered weak unless proven otherwise.

If we were to compare the position, rather than size of the pelvis and thorax balls again, which usually have the greatest impact, you'll notice that the pelvis of the right char is heavily pushed forward, whereas the centre guy's is position roughly beneath. This adds to the impression of a weak, geeklike character to the right, and the slight forward push of the centre guy adds a relaxed air.

These things and more are discussed in this book by Andrew Loomis which I recommend:

http://www.saveloomis.org/fun/1.htm

I think pixelart can be a severe hinder, unless compensated with hi-res drawing, in developing a sense for form/volume and I suggest doing hi-res sketches of the characters prior to beginning with the pixel pushing (which is most likely what the LEC artists did).

Btw, I've never understood why showing the whites of the eyes in this resolution is so popular around here. I can't really recall any fairly normal human characters from lucasarts/sierra that featured them, but my memory is admittedly lousy. As for bb's character, I think it could've unaltered been included in DOTT without anyone taking notice.

[Mats Berglinn]

Loominous, both DOTT and Sam & Max have character both "dot-eyes" and "normal" eyes. Just look at the row of characters I've got: Laverne has normal eyes. Hoagie does also have normal eyes but mostly they're hidden behind all that hair.

For ones who haven't seen the end of DOTT, do not read this:

Spoiler

When Bernard gets himself out of Hoagie's T-shirt and tries to get loose he puts one foot on Hoagie's head. There you can see one of Hoagie's eyes and it's a normal one.

[close]

Also there are several other DOTT characters that don't have dot-eyes (or glasses, sun-glasses or sucker-eyes): Dwayne, George Washington, John Hancock, Harold, The lady at the Human Show, The fat guy at the Human Show, Ned and Jed Edison, Nurse Edna and Zedna.

Seriously, what's wrong with having characters normal eyes in 320 x 200? Just because MI1 and MI2 didn't have characters with normal eyes (apart for exaggerated reactions and close-ups) it doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it. It's a matter of taste if you want dot-eyes or not. Myself, I think most of the time that normal eyes are looking better than dot-eyes. Big Bro seems to be opposite but that's his taste, not mine. But the normal eyes does matter when it comes to personality. Like if you look at Bernard he is a nice character and a geek so dot-eyes fits him better, and if you look at Laverne, she's a bit crazy, enthusiastic med-student, so the eyes gives you the feeling that Laverne's not really of normal character. The reason for why dot-eyes doesn't fit for Dave is that he is a football player (How many times do I have to say this?), a teenager, a popular guy at school, a leadertype, brave, nice, understanding and stout-hearted. Do you understand what I'm talking about?

I do appreciate the sketch, though. I'll try to fix that even it's tricky figure out which lines and positions fits for each character (especially in Paint).

Here's a new version of Dave, using the sketch as inspiration:



Don't you think that Dave have loosen up now with the new arms, neck and torso pose?

[loominous]

both DOTT and Sam & Max have character both "dot-eyes" and "normal" eyes. J

I didn't say there weren't any "normal eyes", as you put it, but "I can't really recall any fairly normal human characters from lucasarts/sierra that featured them".

If you look at the lead characters in LEC and sierra 320x200 res games, they're pretty much always done with dot eyes, and probably since these make most sense. If you look at a scaled down photo of a person to the size of game sprites you won't be able to see the whites because a) the whites are tiny, b) they aren't very bright, and certainly not white.

More extreme characters, which needs to express a certain state do feature whites.

The reason for why dot-eyes doesn't fit for Dave is that he is a football player (How many times do I have to say this?), a teenager, a popular guy at school, a leadertype, brave, nice, understanding and stout-hearted. Do you understand what I'm talking about?

Frankly the only point I see in this is that he's supposed to be nice and understanding which might warrent larger eyes. If you look at very leaderlike, strong character like Ben in full throttle, you'll notice that you can't hardly see the eyes. Our culture's ideal when it comes to male eyes, is fairly heavy eyebrows and squinting-like almond shaped eyes. Translated into 320 res this eliminates whites imo.

Seriously, what's wrong with having characters normal eyes in 320 x 200? Just because MI1 and MI2 didn't have characters with normal eyes (apart for exaggerated reactions and close-ups) it doesn't mean that you shouldn't do

First off, there are plenty more games with dot eyes, about every one I can think of - FOA, Simon the Sorcerer series, Full throttle, Police quest series, Larry 320 game series etc. I'd say "normal eyes" is an exception.

But none of this really matters since, like you say, it's a matter of taste. I was merely expressing my lack of understanding why whites are so popular, since most popular games don't feature them and getting them right is close to impossible (I think they really spoil 9 out of 10 sprites I see in the CL).

[Mats Berglinn]

Yeah, loominus I understand your point. The reason for Full Throttle to not having "normal eyes" is just the style, not the style because FT had bigger resolution (or that's what I think it was I don't know). You do see them when characters do certain expressions you do see them (then again that's what happens with Bernard's eyes too but still). When I meant by a leader character I didn't meant like Ben because he is a mean, though, partly ruthless biker while Dave is mucher nicer person. Your claim of Ben as the trademark for a leadercharacter, is generalising. Not all leaders are tough and ruthless. FT have much more tougher and serious nature oppose to Maniac Mansion and Day of the Tentacle which is more comical and comedic.

Yes, it's true that are many games with "dot eyes" but FOA, SImon the Sorcerer, Police Quest and so on are earlier games and therefore resolution much more lower. Full Throttle on the other hand is a later game with higher resolution. You can't compair low-res with med/hi res by the eyes. It's again for the style.

The reason for why people prefer normal eyes over dot eyes is very simpe: They think that it looks a lot nicer and adds more character (in most of the case).

But let's drop this eyes argue and focus on the sprites, ok?