The Second Man - Comments & Critique

[cianty]

In this thread I would like to ask the experienced community that is AGS for feedback on various aspects of my game in production, The Second Man.

_____________

As mentioned in the work in progress thread I'd like to start with the GUI: I use the LucasArts template, but as I felt bad for just copying the original buttons I made symbols for the actions:



The above image is slightly out of date as I updated the "Pull" icon in the meantime as can be seen here:



I know some people find the symbols not too suitable for the respective actions so please let me know which of the icons you would like to see changed. All thoughts are welcome!

[Snarky]

All of the icons take way more work to interpret than just text, and are harder to identify at a glance even once you know them.

I would go back to the text buttons.

[Khris]

Seconded, as I already stated in the GiP thread.

You can always include an option, allowing people to choose between symbols and text.

[Dualnames]

The best approach would be to show a label with the button name. A mesh between the two choices. So when my mouse is over the pull button, a label saying pull would appear, or the button would be changed to words. Just a thought on the table.

[Tuomas]

The only things that I find self-explanatory are speak, look at, and open... So I'd definitely go with text rather than images. But if you really want to use images, I'd recommend you used the older pull-icon rather that the new one.

[arj0n]

This indeed:

The best approach would be to show a label with the button name. A mesh between the two choices. So when my mouse is over the pull button, a label saying pull would appear, or the button would be changed to words. Just a thought on the table.

Or just text only.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

My question is if you're are actually using (or need to use) all of those buttons in your game?  For example, open and close have been proven to be unnecessary over time, particularly with a USE verb.  USE makes separate verbs like open/close and to a lesser extent push/pull pretty erroneous because having one verb that can both open and close a door is more powerful and convenient and saves on clicks.  I rarely see anyone make games where push/pull is even needed, so if these are verbs you have tried to 'invent' uses for in the game then it might be better just to get rid of them.  Aside from that, I don't mind the icons but obviously the text is going to be easier for people to understand unless they don't understand English.  That's pretty much the only advantage of icons if they're logical.

[Snarky]

But since it's pretty much impossible to play an adventure game if you don't know the language at all, it's not really an important advantage. I still say go with text labels on the buttons.

We've had this discussion about redundant (erroneous?) verbs many times before; I think the main argument if favor of them is to require the player to form a more specific intention before each successful interaction. So instead of just "let me mess around with this thingy and see what happens", you will at least need to decide whether it's something to push, pull, open, close, or otherwise "use". But even with five verbs there's not a whole lot of ingenuity required, so I personally think it's usually more of a hassle than it's worth.

If you get rid of open/close and push/pull, you can reduce the list to six and even have one space free. A "gimmick" verb (e.g. "smell", "flirt", "intimidate", "kick", "levitate", or whatever would be appropriate for your character) would add more to your game than a whole bunch of generic actions, in my opinion.

[Khris]

I think the popularity of this interface stems exclusively from nostalgia; Monkey Island and Indy fans will feel right at home.
From a practical/realistic point of view though, the BASS/Broken Sword interface makes much more sense.

The main disadvantage of this interface I think is that the designer is constantly tempted to design puzzles around the nine verbs; I'm guilty of this myself ("Talk to Chuck").

My question would be: is it even an option to change the interface, or is this thread about how the nine buttons are supposed to look?

The best approach would be to show a label with the button name. A mesh between the two choices. So when my mouse is over the pull button, a label saying pull would appear, or the button would be changed to words. Just a thought on the table.

I don't think that's the best approach at all; this still requires the player to "target" the right symbol, which is what has to go, IMO.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Well, I've seen loads of people on forums (even here) admit that they didn't understand English when they played the old classics, some of them actually learning it as they went along (which I think is commendable), so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the advantages of iconography over the written word as images are much more universal.  But again, I don't think this makes icons superior, since poorly-designed ones can easily mislead people until they figure out for themselves what the button does, just like not understanding a verb until you apply it a few times and see what happens.  As it stands, I think the icons illustrate their purpose quite well and wouldn't cause a significant misunderstanding if used instead of text, though with text LABELS you could always release versions to adequately support different languages as well.  Either way I think the gui's okay, though I would personally condense down any verb I had to actively think of a use for in the game (ie, the use doesn't come as a natural part of the game and must be engineered in).  This gives you some more gui real estate for added functionality and, as Snarky mentioned, more unique verbs that play a role in the personality and gameplay of the game (like kick, shoot, seduce).  

[Snarky]

Let me just say "push Sophia", since that's the standard example of "why we need more verbs" (or alternatively, "the only time in the history of adventure games that there's ever been a need to distinguish push from use"), and it will make it easier to find this thread later.

I learned English partly by playing adventure games myself (I remember I learned the words "womb" and "tomb" from a particular puzzle in The Dagger of Amon Ra, and "figurine" from Fate of Atlantis), but you have to start with at least a basic understanding, and it doesn't get much more basic than "talk to", "look at" etc. I know from experience that Monkey Island was much easier to figure out than Flight of the Amazon Queen. More complex stuff like "examine" or "inventory" could throw beginners, though (Shadowgate was quite challenging to figure out when I first played it), and for inventory items, thumbnail icons are definitely more accessible than a written list, since you're inevitably going to come across a word you don't know at some point.

I think the UI design arguments for usability and gameplay design are pretty unanimous, but there is a place for nostalgia or aesthetic preference as well. (If not in freeware indie games, then where?) If it's just a matter of icon design, I would change the open/close icons (they read to me as lock/unlock, and the key makes them messier than necessary), maybe for an open/closed door. Give is unclear to me, and pick up is a good concept but could look better. I think the use icon has different connotations than the label: I wouldn't think to use it to combine two items, for example, only to manipulate things in the environment.

[Monsieur OUXX]

Cianty: It's a good idea to try rep;acing words with icons, but your icons are not good enough. You need to make them clearer.

Examples :
- The "open"/"close" look more like "lock"/"unlock"
- the "push"/"pull" look more like "use the Force to attract/repell"

They need to be more "straightt o the point".

I confess it's not easy! It's actually much harder than it sounds. But it's worth working on it.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I made an edit to some of the icons people were having trouble with to try and make them a little more obvious.

[cianty]

First off, thank you all for taking the time to reply!

Also, let me say that the usage of icons is not really up for vote. I do want to use them and would like to know which you think are the hardest to interpret. However, due to the scepticism towards icons I will definately include an option to switch between icons and written verbs. It's not a lot of work so why not include it for convenience?

[offtopic]
The 9-Verb GUI aka The Bloated Interface
I was very surprised to see how negative people are towards the 9-verb gui. Do I really need to justify nostalgia on here? Is all the work put into that template useless? I don't think so. Not only does it put you back into LucasArts mood, I think it definately has its merits, even if it's not necessarily the perfect interface. I have indeed caught myself doing "if(use or pull)" a few times so there is a bit of redundancy. But there are still different uses in different situations. Since the main character is a hitman I won't have to explain the difference between "use beretta with passenger" and "give beretta to passenger". Then there are doors where there's Use/Open and Push (=knock). Sometimes use can be combined with one, sometimes with another verb and sometimes it stands on its own.
I won't mess with the interface as I am already way too far into the game to change everything, but I am also considering other options for a potential sequel. I think it would indeed be a good idea to combine push and pull into one icon. I don't see that push/pull action being replaced by use though. In the end it really depends on the game. I am not having problems with superflous actions so far but restructuring some and making room for original characterful actions is a very good idea. I do have an idea of an action that I would like to include in a possible part 2 game, but that's future talk...
What I don't do is design forced puzzles around the verbs. I don't think in "game terms", i.e. verbs, but in situations and events, in natural language. So far I even had one situation where the available verbs didn't suffice/match and I found it hard to convert the situation to game actions.
Because of how much I have been playing around with my game (and thus used the interface) over the last months I find other interfaces pretty superficial and currently I can't even imagine throwing pull, push, open, close overboard for a single "hand" (use).
[/offtopic]

Icons vs Verbs
Personally I prefer icons a lot and none of the people who have been playtesting so far had problems using them. I think that it's easy to associate actions to symbols - the quality of them is only necessary to allow quick and easy access to the interface but after a short time you know immediately where to click for a certain action. Remember that you are still "forming sentences", so when you click a button the verb appears above the gui and then you choose the object etc. You are not blindly clicking on buttons and objects and only realizing afterwards what has happened. I can't tell, but maybe the interface comes across differently "on paper" than it does "in game". I didn't expect this to be such a big deal since it's one of the most well-known interfaces and I'm just changing the verbs 1:1 to symbols. It's not like this is an all new interface like Flight of the Amazon Queen or Simon 2.

Now on to ProgZ's improvements...
I like them a lot! That new give icons is great. It makes a lot of sense to have two hands and I tried something like that before but just couldn't pull it off. Same with open/close: Those were originally opening "doors" but I used a difficult 3D perspective that I just couldn't do right that way. I also like the idea to have the pick up hand actually pick up something - conveys the idea much better! Push and Pull also look good but I think they look a bit too similar yet... What I like about the original push icon is that it can be easier abused for actions such as "kick" or "knock".

Again, thanks a lot for your feedback so far and especially to you, ProgZmax for the new icons! Please keep them thoughts comming! I don't mind a little off topic discussion about the interface in general, but please bear in mind that what I am mostly interested in is specific suggestions related to the icons.

[Monsieur OUXX]

The ProgZmax improvements are good, but I still think pull/push need to be clearer, even though they're already much clearer than the original ones.
At the moment it looks like the object that's being pushed/pulled is actually important, whereas it's the movement (pushing or pulling), and possibly the hand, that are important.

[arj0n]

The ProgZmax improvements are good, but I still think pull/push need to be clearer, even though they're already much clearer than the original ones.
At the moment it looks like the object that's being pushed/pulled is actually important, whereas it's the movement (pushing or pulling), and possibly the hand, that are important.

Maybe just use an open hand with an arrow for push and a closed hand with an arrow for pull, leaving the object away.
Because the object does distract a little indeed.

[prowler]

Then there are doors where there's Use/Open and Push (=knock).

how do you plan on suggesting this to the user? maybe you could have the status bar verb change to "knock" as you're hovering above the door in 'push' mode... still, it's not that intuitive..

[Tuomas]

But since it's pretty much impossible to play an adventure game if you don't know the language at all, it's not really an important advantage. I still say go with text labels on the buttons.

Though I did complete Zak McKraken at the age of 7 and had no idea what was going on, just had the endurance. Also I completed Victor Loomes before I knew any German... but it's true, there's always a language barrier, nevertheless, I should think that most of the people who are ever going to find this game will be reading English just ok.