Any americans watch the debate last night?

[DGMacphee]

There are people who get married in a drive through in Vegas.

This made me think: we've reached a sad state in humanity when gay people aren't allowed to get married, but Britney Spears is. Twice. And in the same year.

[Andail]

I sat up and watched the entire debate (from 3 to 4:30 this morning), and I reacted quite strongly on a few things.

I now understand better how and why americans look at certain things the way they do. It's constantly being hammered into people's minds (maybe not always outspoken) that america is all, and the rest of the world is something else, and they just want to be a pain in america's ass.
When Bush talked about decisions he had made that had annoyed other nations, he said things like
"I don't want a war tribunal which our troops can be put before. That made a lot of europeans upset."

Instead of really arguing the pros and cons of a warcrime tribunal that could hold war criminals from each and every nation responsible (a fair, international court, in other words), he just said something along the lines "those crazy europeans got upset" as if we were some bloody anthill.

He also repeatedly said that he invaded Iraq because the UN was not doing anything, and the sanctions had no effect.
That's only true if you live in america. If you live in Europe, you know that the weapons inspectors made Saddam detroy his last wmd:s already back in 1993-94, and that Hans Blix had repeatedly stated this, and reported the lack of such weapons now adays.

"We didn't know that Iraq didn't have wmd:s until we got there!" Bush stated. To me that's a horrific thing to say, for two reasons:
1. He suggests that if you don't know whether a country has illegal weapons or not, it's best to invade it to find out.
2. He would have known, if he had listened to Hans Blix and the weapons inspectors. He stubbornly refused to take part of information that was presented before him, and afterwards still claims he couldn't know.

To me this is stupidity beyond belief.

What more do we have?

Bush filling all his pauses with "you can run, but you can't hide....that's reality....that's reality". What the fuck is the deal with that?
Does any adult american actually buy that kind of juvenile bullshit?

Also, the audience's questions annoyed me. Why only ask things that both of the candidates are bound to have rehearsed and prepared for?
The only question that sort of put Bush to a loss was the one about supreme judges. He didn't have a clue on what to say, so he just started rambling about the importance of not letting your personal oppinion get in the way of justice. Completely obvious, empty statements.

I think it's a sad fact that Kerry has to spend so much precious debating-time on defending himself from the accusations of being a flip-flopper, when this is merely a pr-trick from the republican campaign.
The very first question was even about this, which I think is pretty tasteless and politically irrelevant. You shouldn't have to stand in a political debate and face name-calling and rumours that the other campaign just pulled out of their arses.

Well, this was rather incoherent, but I'm still tired from a pretty sleepless night, and I will probably continue the discussion when more people share their two cents.

[Czar]

For those who are uninformed, the rumor is that Bush had a helper (whisperer, and a pretty GREAT one as the actions showed)...

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/10/08/bulge/index_np.html

There is a tape which Fox caught where Bush has a box on his back. They say it is DEFINETLY NOT a walkie-talkie, but the lunch his wife prepared to him, or so the secret agencies say.

http://www.foxnews.com/

[Fuzzpilz]

If they'd cheated, I don't think they would have done it quite so badly and obviously. No. It's the suit bunching up, perhaps.

As for the second debate - another clear Kerry win to my mind, though not, perhaps, as obviously as last week. For example, I was a tad disappointed that he didn't throw Bush's threat to veto those 87 billion dollars he loves talking about so much back at him, since the next debate will be about domestic issues - but then we'll see for how long they'll be able to stick to that.

[poop743]

Guys, I watched the debate last night too. Last time Bush stumbled alot, but he was strong last night. I hated the way Kerry kept saying he was consistent. Just because you are consistent over the course of two debates, it doesnt erase years of flip flopping. I honestly believe bush won last night. It was more like a debate and Bush even got a little mean about the lumber company crack.

Kerry only scored a point once: "How can you get other countries to give up their weapons, when you are making your owm Bunker Buster right now."

Touche, Kerry. Touche

I also hope you guys now know what I meant about taxes. Kerry is singling out and abandoning people making over 200k. Alot more people make over that than he thinks. 90% of the kids at my school have parents making over 200k. Some people arent born rich. My dad was born into a normal family, paid his way through college and dental/orthodontic school, and moved from house to house until we got to the 6000 square foot house on a 2 1/2 acre lot that were on now. And can you guys stop calling me silver platter boy and giving me crap.

I am only american. I am no match for the dry wit and sarcasim from England and other European countries. Be gentle

[Andail]

Poop:
Could you please back away from everything your dad and the republican campaign have told you, and look objectively at things; why is Kerry a flip-flopper? How did the word flip-flopper ever reach your mouth?

Take a look at Bush:
1. "We know Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. Ergo, we must invade Iraq to neutralise the threat."
2. "We haven't found any weapons. But now our objective is to get rid of Saddam."
3. "All right, there were no weapons. But they might have, in some distant future, got hold of such weapons. Therefore we stroke pre-emptively."

Isn't that flip-flopping, isn't that being inconsistent?
Listen, poop, Kerry is one of the least flip-flopping politicians you will find in America. He is an honest, dead-serious, commited poltician, he doesn't own a baseball-team, he doesn't own an oil-company, he's just into polítics, and he's been there for 20 years.
He's straight-backed and right on target.
Of the two candidates, Bush is an infinitely worse flip-flopper, but the worst flip-floppers are the american people, who can't tell slander from facts, and who keep being uncertain when so much is at stake.

Don't worry, Poop, you're only 13 and can't be blamed for anything, it's worse that a hundred million adult americans let themselves be duped like this.

Darn, if Bush wins this, I'm gonna be really pissed with your country.

[Darth Mandarb]

Darn, if Bush wins this, I'm gonna be really pissed with your country.

You aren't already?

I hate to say this, but I think it's a foregone conclusion the President Bush will be re-elected.

I base this opinion on two theories:
- If he can fix the election in 2000 (when he wasn't president yet) I'm sure he can fix this one as well.
- There are FAR too many stupid people in America who think GW's bullshit rhetoric is 'cool' and will vote for him because he's "goin' afta dem ter'ists".  They're too stupid to see the global effect the man is having on our country ... and that's sad.

I hope I'm wrong.  I really do.

[darkx5]

did not watch the debate, not interested in the canidates bush never gave me my job and kerry well i feel that he's a liar... i think if i vote at all i'll right in my own name..

Yeah Vote for me Free healthcare in all 50 states and whatnots

[Escargot]

I also hope you guys now know what I meant about taxes. Kerry is singling out and abandoning people making over 200k.

Bush likes to say that Kerry is "raising" taxes on the rich, but really all Kerry wantsÃ,  to do is bring their tax rates back to what they were before Bush slashed them. Even before Bush rich people paid ridiculously low taxes, compared to what they pay in most countries; they actually pay the same or lower percentage than middle income people. Many countries tax the rich at over 50% of their income, and I think they should -- if you make that much money, you should contribute a lot to society, and really that's what taxes are all about. Not about some kind of "burden".

I am only american. I am no match for the dry wit and sarcasim from England and other European countries.

I am both American and European by citizenship (okay, Europe is not a country...) and I've spent a lot of time in both places. Most people in the world used to look up to America, even if they didn't admit it out loud because they thought America's self-absorption was a little weird. But since GW took over, America is the laughingstock of the world, even if they don't (always) laugh at her out loud (that could be dangerous). And Americans now feel like they have to say things like "I am only an American".

Let's hope that someone (maybe Kerry) can bring America back into the world community, not neccessarily as the leader of the world (like Kerry said at last night's debate), but as a country that acknowledges that its own self-interest is best served when it listens to other's points of view and doesn't force it's distorted view of reality down everyone's throat.

[darkx5]

any way you go it'll ruin america...
i say we vote for someone of action and not words

[Escargot]

Okay, dark, you have my voteÃ,  8)

[Andail]

Escargot, an excellent post.

Darkx5, on the other hand....hm, well, you just brought back this political debate to a primordial level again.
At least try to contribute with some thoughtful arguments. And for the love of god, go vote!

[poop743]

actually, escargot, you should get your facts right. My parents are getting taxed 52% right now. Think of what Kerry will do. I know alot about kerry despite my age

John Kerry:
-wants to ban the pledge of allegiance in schools  because it has "god" in it

-Isnt going to allow us to drill for oil in alaska, even though the amount of oil there is ridiculous, because he cares about polar bears

-Is going to weaken america because we need a strong cowboy right now, not some hippy dippy senator

-Is going to cut military funding and leave america in shambles

- Wants to develop a plan to get all able-minded americans into college. I like the idea, but we just dont have the money for that, and the ttax burden would take more away from america than college puts in. Jobs requiring diplomas wont pay as much anymore, because everyone would have a degree.

-Wants to end all of the nuke-building in america. I feel safe in america knowing we are the only country with hundreds of nukes to back us up. I couldnt sleep easy without them.

Kerry is nobody. Liberals just vote fpr him because he isnt bush.

Example: Canada! Canada has free healthcare and college, yet their country has not grown very much. They are 1/10 of the american population and 1/50 of our army, and 1/100 of our value.

The future of the world is republicans. Some call us mean capitalistic scumbags, I call us the leaders of tomorrow. When something needs to get done  we do it. We dont save polar bears like pansies.

hahah id like to see the replies to this

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Like I said, no knowledge of politics... but -

-Wants to end all of the nuke-building in america. I feel safe in america knowing we are the only country with hundreds of nukes to back us up. I couldnt sleep easy without them.

Couldn't sleep easy without them? I pity you, I really do.

[Pumaman]

actually, escargot, you should get your facts right. My parents are getting taxed 52% right now.

I agree, that's shockingly low. If I had my way, people would be taxed at 90% on income over $100,000 because let's face it, nobody needs that kind of money.

Why do dustbin men get paid minimum wage and teachers only get a pittance, whereas "fat cat" company directors get paid millions a year? Ask yourself which provides a more useful service to the country.

Without dustbin men, we'd all be drowning in waste; and without teachers, kids would be even thicker than they already are these days. Whereas without a company director, nothing much would change. So why does he get paid more?

-wants to ban the pledge of allegiance in schoolsÃ,  because it has "god" in it

Don't know what this 'pledge of allegiance' is, but it sounds pretty inconsequential anyway.

-Isnt going to allow us to drill for oil in alaska, even though the amount of oil there is ridiculous, because he cares about polar bears

And why shouldn't he? Why don't you?

-Is going to weaken america because we need a strong cowboy right now, not some hippy dippy senator

Why on earth do you need a strong cowboy right now? Bush's rashness has made the world a more dangerous place and greatly increased the threat of terrorism -- why would you want that sort of thing to continue?

-Is going to cut military funding and leave america in shambles

Why would cutting military funding leave america in a shambles? If anything it should improve things, since the cash could be spent on schools and hospitals instead.

- Wants to develop a plan to get all able-minded americans into college. I like the idea, but we just dont have the money for that, and the ttax burden would take more away from america than college puts in.

If somebody has the ability, why should their education be restricted depending on money? I don't know where your fear comes from -- in the UK we had completely free university education for all until a few years ago, and the country isn't overrun with graduates pouring out of every orifice.

-Wants to end all of the nuke-building in america. I feel safe in america knowing we are the only country with hundreds of nukes to back us up. I couldnt sleep easy without them.

Wow yeah, I sleep real easy knowing that the end of the world is only a button-press away.

The future of the world is republicans. Some call us mean capitalistic scumbags, I call us the leaders of tomorrow. When something needs to get doneÃ,  we do it. We dont save polar bears like pansies.

No, it's people like you that give conservatism a bad name. The whole Thatcherite "I'm ok, so screw you" philosophy just sums up what's wrong with the world today.

any way you go it'll ruin america...
i say we vote for someone of action and not words

darkx5, the "THINK BEFORE YOU POST" clause is there for a reason.

[veryweirdguy]

hahah id like to see the replies to this

Me too.

Alright, I'll admit, I'm not the biggest follower of American politics, but I shall give it the ol' college try (college try! see what I did there?):

You make it sound as if America isn't doing that well financially or in terms of power at the moment. I think Bush has made it quite clear that America can push everyone else around, & give whatever reasons he wishes for it.

Also, do you support all of Bushes decisions in the last few years? Do you think a country with too much potential power should be taken down a notch (as with Iraq)? Did you cheer when he told us he was going to get rid of Saddam's weapons of mass destruction?

Then why do you want your country to keep building nukes?

And why do you need a 'strong cowboy' as you put it? Are you scared Kerry might ban the rodeo next year? You haven't really backed up why cowboys are better than hippys, & I for one think a more peaceful leader would be better than a trigger-happy macho-man. The type who doesn't push the rest of the world around for their lunch money (or whatever else they may possess).

Also, what's wrong with polar bears? Do you wanna hurt this guy?*:



I think most of the world would agree that keeping these guys is much more important than increasing America's oil monopoly.

Kerry is nobody. Liberals just vote fpr him because he isnt bush.

Yup. He's the lesser of two evils (no offense if Evil reads this).

I'm sure there are many more who are much more well researched & learned on this subject, but these are basically my gut feelings, based on what I know. I do not follow American politics much, as I said, but then again I imagine most Americans don't either.

*NOTE - There are probably much cuter polar bear pics on the net. But I like this guy.

[shbaz]

I don't like what you guys are saying about taxing the rich. If one person pays 30% of their income to the government, the next should pay exactly the same. If you tax the rich 90% just because they're rich, that is punishing people for being successful. That isn't fair and it reminds me more of communism than anything. What will motivate people to be doctors, engineers, scientists, and etc? Do you think the satisfaction they get from going to college for eight years to get paid as much as a common laborer would make it worthwhile? I don't.

[Fuzzpilz]

shbaz:

You can tax Mr. Giant Pile Of Burlap Sacks With Dollar Signs On Them more than Mr. About To Be Evicted Because He Can't Pay The Rent and still leave Mr. Giant Pile Of Burlap Sacks With Dollar Signs On Them more money than Mr. About To Be Evicted Because He Can't Pay The Rent. And you should, because he can afford to pay a larger proportion of his income than poorer folk. It doesn't have to be so much larger that he ends up having about the same amount of money as them.

[Pumaman]

If one person pays 30% of their income to the government, the next should pay exactly the same. If you tax the rich 90% just because they're rich, that is punishing people for being successful.

But you're equating success with money, and that's not the case at all. Why would people who graduate with a degree become a teacher, when they could earn much more as an engineer? There's far more to being a success than how much cash you earn.

What will motivate people to be doctors, engineers, scientists, and etc?

Not everybody picks their career based on how much money they can earn, and nor should they -- really, what you're saying is the problem with capitalism. People should choose a career that gives them the most satisfaction in their job.

Money can still be used as a way of promoting people and so on, but only to a certain point. Personally, I believe that nobody deserves to be paid more than $100,000 unless they've contributed something absolutely amazing to the world, such as curing cancer.

[poop743]

Amen to that, Shbazjinkens

That is what I have been trying to say all along. I could make a million good points, but if i call liberals hippies at the end of my post suddenly im an idiot. I'm one of 4 children. My school costs 22,000 dollars a year per child. Thjats before taxes. If taxes get higher, i will either have to transfer schools or my parents will have to sell one of our beloved beach houses.

Also i have some tips to get rich for you guys. There is a place in canada called PEI. We bought a house there 200k american 4 years ago. We just sold it for 700k american. Its a goldmine people!

Do not fear wealth, embrace it! There is a fortune waiting for all of you. And if one of you happens to make over 200k one day, or if you make over 200k right now, i urge you to seem my side.

America is about opportunities, not just free handouts. Nothing is straight out given to you right away. There is no excuse to be homeless in America today. If youre willing to work you can be anyone in america.

About the debate: John kerry said bush lead us into Iraq with a bad plan! Who the hell is John kerry to say bush made a bad plan. What does he think bush does? Sit there in a friggin war room all day and write up plans for war? No.
He cant make laws either. He just passes and vetoes laws. All day.