CJ is not Jesus

[Evil]

Talk is cheap. Free speech isn't.

[cpage]

okay I never post in topics about religion as a rule but i have something i need to say.

first off... WanderLady I now have great respect for you for standing up for something you believe. And to keep things happy around here i will not refer to CJ as JC.

But for the most part my reply is to the replys.
I understand that you guys have rights to say whatever the fuck you want to, but so does wanderlady. So first of all please dont be hippocritical and think that the rights of your own are stronger then the rights of Wanderlady's.

Second of all lets not get mad at someone for posting their views on a subject and asking people to be sensative to it....  I mean after all these forums for the most part are a comfortably accepting place and if somthing we do is makeing a member uncomfortable that reflects on us all.
Plus it takes alot of guts to ask what wander did because lets face it we all have a little asshole in us.

in the end i think the purpose of this post was to say if you demand that people respect your rights you better respect theirs.

[Gregjazz]

I think cpage just about summed it all up.

Well, I was never into that CJ/JC thing, anyways. I wasn't really offended by it -- I merely shrugged it off.

Saying 'God' or synonyms is not bad. It's the attitude behind it.

[shbaz]

Gilbot: As you have no belief, why post?


Why did you post because you have a belief?  This isn't a religion-based forum, and everyone is free to post.  When you posted a question, you left it there for anyone to answer as they pleased, because you were asking everyone to respect your belief.  I would think this is more relevant to atheists (because they are most likely to offend) than people who are religious. In fact, tons of christians adamantly tell me that atheism is a religion, because even though it doesn't have a god, it does rely heavily on some unproven concepts to disprove christianity. I think this is nonsense.. but whatever.

As an atheist, I see just as much ridicule and offence from the christian community, probably more than is given to them.  How often do you see someone on the corner screaming, "You're god is a farse! Give up your foolish beliefs!" As compared to people on the corner holding up biblical verses and screaming, "Gays are going to hell! Atheists must repent before the almighty lord! Turn to the lord and your sins will be forgiven!" Maybe it's just because I live in the bible belt. This bothers me for a lot of reasons:

1. Because I'm not now, nor am I ever going to be religious, for many reasons.
2. Because I've heard it all before.
3. Because it's annoying, I've heard it all before hundreds of times, in fact.

Fact is, they aren't going to stop. It's their belief that it's their mission from god to save souls. My mission is to have fun with life, and jokes are a big part of that. I'm not going to stop either.

Just learn to ignore it, I really don't believe that it offends you enough to merit an entire community of so many people to watch everything they say, for fear of it being blasphemous of a religion a lot of people don't care about. Your time would be better spend in the swingers chat at Yahoo, now those people need to change their ways.

And Chris isn't vain, he's defending our right to say what we want. At most, this is only mildly offensive. I've seen (and said) much worse.

EDIT:
Religion is Belief, not necessarily something that cannot be proven, to clarify.
I give up, this isn't going to go anywhere. I just wish people could go through life without being offended at every little thing.

[Quintaros]

In fact, tons of christians adamantly tell me that atheism is a religion, because even though it doesn't have a god, it does rely heavily on some unproven concepts to disprove christianity.

Is this what makes something a religion:  Believing what can not be proven?

[WanderLady]

shbazjinkens: You are right. In my zeal, I made a mistake in saying that to Gilbert.  

I'm sorry, Gilbert.

But as a furthur response, I did not ask anyone to believe in Jesus. I did not question anyone else's beliefs. I simply asked if it would not be done anymore.

[Gilbert]

It's nothing at all, don't mind that.

All I want to say is "get over it", jokes mean harm if people are sensitive (note I don't use "over-sensitive", as everyone has his/her own limits, and there sure are harsh jokes that can offend many) to it and be offended, even though it may not be teh original intention. And I think that the main purpose of most religions is to make people happy and live in harmony (sorry I make an assumption here again on something I'm not really familiar with), if someone becomes angry or sad because of his/her own belief, there may be something wrong with it. I personally don't like the fact that some people of different religious believes attacking one another just to defend for their own views, which I don't think is the original intention of any religions and I think most of the believers won't act like that, since if one thinks the religion he believes is the truth, believers of other religions have the same thought too, so they are all equal. Same applies to nonbelievers (like me), most of the time they don't believe in religions is just because they don't feel the need to, but not against the religions.

So even we have different beliefs (and values, etc., these are always different amongst persons), we are not necessarily against each other. So everyone would be happy then.

If one person makes a joke that may be connected to other religions and he doesn't really mean harm (there WERE jokes that MEAN harm), everyone should just get over it and not treat it so seriously, otherwise it would just make people unhappy and possibily filled with hatred, which I think is not the intention of religions.

I myself did sometimes make jokes on religions, some may even be quite offesive (dig up the thread of me battling Squinky!) and I'll say sorry to everybodies who might have been offended, but I hope that won't be causes of hatred and dislikeness.

Enough BS by me, get over and cheer up everybodies!

[Unilin]

* Unilin sacrifices a goat to CJ and prays for victory in his campaign against the mole men.

[WanderLady]

eric: what if he doesn't believe in god? shouldn't you take that into question before asking the entire community to stop something that maybe no one else sees as insulting?

I mostly responded to this already in other posts. I did take in to account the non-belief of others. But I say this to you.
One who doesn't believe may say, "I don't believe, so it's okay for me to do this." If so, then why is the reference still used in the deitical fashion?

cpage: Thank you for answering the question openly. It's appreciated.

Geoffkhan: The attitude used is one of jest for a name that requires seriousness.

Gilbert: I hoped, also, for no hatred and no dislike, but this is something I deem harmful, even if a joke.

[TheYak]

Wanderlady, you ask the community to desist with the JC/CJ jokes.  Well, I would tell you that your blatant transgender homo-eroticism has caused me great offense for some time now.  I am not familiar with very many uses of the word, "Lady," that actually refer to a male.  The flower, "Lady Slipper," refers to the footwear of a lady.  The phrase "Lunch-Lady" refers to a lady that doles out excrement in the guise of food.  In the movie "Lady and the Tramp" the "Lady" does not refer to a human female, but at least a female.  Therefore, your blatant disregard for social decency leaves me with little or no respect for your request.  

Seriously now, if you had written a polite request then I would have been one of the first to acknowledge your offense and would've made sure I didn't commit this atrocious sin.  However, you stated that we were damaging our souls and insinuated that we would surely taste hellfire for our blasphemous statements and lack of belief.  You've stated time and time again that all you did was ask politely if we would stop.  That is not the case.  

When you first started participating in the forums, there were "Jesus this" and "Jesus that" statements in every message you posted.  When that started slacking off a bit, I believe that the community as a whole began to respect you.  I, personally, come from an extremely religious background and have left the church more light-hearted than I ever felt while attending.  Some of the most devout Christians I've known have been able to enjoy a bit of "Divine" humor without bleeding their sufferage about.  You insinuate that Chris not condemning these jokes is due to his pride and his wish to be likened unto Jesus Christ, a bit harsh, I think.  You also respond by saying that we shouldn't be mocking the name of the Lord.  Which name?  Every time we say Lord (even in reference to a social status in the UK) is it blasphemy?  Since beelzebub was known as the "Lord of the flies," then was the author of that description being blasphemous?  How then, can you say our playing with such common-place words as Jesus (a fairly common name in some countries and essentially the same name as Joshua is in Hebrew).  It's just a name, like any other. The Christ part only identifies one known as a savior, and except for the Church's insistence to the contrary, could be used toward any individual that has aided the common man.  

I, for one, will respect your request (though I do not believe the aforementioned sin is mine) and refrain from likening anyone on this forum to a Christian deity.  As for other deities, I believe they're fair-game since they are typically followed by less anal-retentive members and are more supportive of the human spirit and humor than a deity who's obsessed with the judgement of all things, even an innocent joke.  

Edit: Holy $hit (I mean... Really Special $hit), I was blathering, didn't realize it'd be this long.  Ah well, the thread'll be ignored or locked soon enough anyway..

[Meowster]

I'm going to be perfectly honest.

Wanderlady, your views on everything annoy me. Homosexuality, requirements that need to be met to get in to heaven, other religions. Probably loads more stuff. I have learned from experience to dislike people with such strong religious beliefs as yourself, that feel the need to stuff it down others throats. We never get on. That doesn't go for people with strong religious beliefs who don't stuff it down peoples throats. We do. But man, Wanderlady... we just have to stop seeing each other.

So in conclusion, I don't like you at all, and even though I never actually used the CJ JC thing.... from now on, I'm going to start. Just for you. Just because it shows disrespect for you in a special way that I never knew existed before.

I'm just being honest.

[DGMacphee]

I don't really care about all this CJ/JC stuff -- I mean, my biggest contributuion to this thread was a picture of Buddy Jesus ('Nuff said, right?).

Also, I'm not a Christian -- used to be, but am not anymore.

However, I will say this: If Jesus were alive today, I'm sure he'd realise that refering to CJ as 'Jesus' or 'God' or whatever is just a joke.

I mean, Jesus loved hookers, taxmen, and even the people who crucified him -- The dude sounds pretty patient to me.

I'm sure he'd see it's all just one big elaborate joke, and understands that he's still respected by millions upon million of people.

However, to show non-discrimination for all religions, I propose we rotate Chris' deity name on a daily basis:

On Sunday: Jesus/God/Holy Spirit
On Monday: Buddha
On Tuesday: Gandhi
On Wednesday: Krishna
On Thursday: Yahweh
On Friday: Ganesha

Saturday will be our non-denominational day, to appease atheists and agnostics.


And while we're on religious matters:

[Raggit]

I don't think that WanderLady was rude or exactly mean in his request.  It's not like he wrote  "Now you all stop this evil before you are destroyed!!1!!1"  or anything.  

So since he is dealing with this in a mature way, maybe some of us should be a little more respectful. I agree with him, the CJ/God jokes aren't really neccesary.

[MillsJROSS]

Although this may be intended as a joke, it is not funny, but is, in fact, hurtful, and even harmful. Harmful to your own souls and to those who may read it. So I simply ask,

Can it please not be done anymore?

I think the overwhelming answer is apparenty no. While I do respect a man who'll throw in a please, to be courteous, I feel I can not comply with this request. What you are asking us to do is censorship, which I am strongly against. It would be like me requesting you not make a post of this very nature. I respect your right to give us an oppinion on a subject, just like you'll hopefully respect those and my right to make a joke.

BOYD

could you not just keep your beliefs to yourself instead of trying to force them on everyone?

Hypocritical, I need not explain further.

DUZZ

historically, the bible is correct farlander, no historian denies the existance or crusifiction of JC, but lets not get into that... (although I'm sure we will)

I'm sure there are historians who deny the existence of Jesus as he is portrayed. But what does it matter what one man believes over another? They're either wrong or right, and unless they decide to use time travel, or in the event of the second comming, no one will ever truly know without a doubt.

SSH

I think the moral of this story is:
If someone offends your religion, keep quiet about it because if you complain, you'll be battered to a pulp by people defending freedom of speech

I don't agree. I think we've kept ourselves on a fairly mature level, most of us, and that the battering was few, and kind of worthless as most of it was hypocritical.

junc

Another thing I must point out: I believe you are failing to see a positive point to the situation. We are not trying to insult CJ. We love CJ and appreciate what he has given us. In our mass appreciation we jokingly equate him not to Allah, Jehova, Vishnu, but to YOUR savior, Jesus! We, a WORLD community recognize your religion first. I believe you should reevaluate your faith and how you view the world as a whole. For you to not see this positive point may in fact put your own faith, and more importantly the practice of, into question.

I don't really agree with this. I, personally hold no attatchment to Jesus, love or hate. I think it's more of a matter of the fact that CJ is close to JC. If his name was Al, we might call him Allah.

m0ds

I don't understand why people don't judge religion in the same way. Religion is something that is fluent throughout the world and even if you don't believe in it, you have to accept its existence, and really I believe you shouldn't discriminate against it. If someone had a fairly resemblant name of the word (and I hate to be racist again) "Nigger", would you start calling him it? Probably not because you're well aware that you would offend a lot of people and racism isn't tolerated (especially not on the forums) and so why should something that affects someones beliefs be any more tolerable?

I think it's probably because you are born into a race, where as you hold no beliefs upon birth. Race isn't something we choose, so it can only hold that using racist comments serve no real purpose as, short of some serious operations, there is nothing to be done about it. Wheras religion is up to a person, and as that is the case, one can't live their life in fear of what people might react to a light-hearted joke, not meant to be offensive. I feel if one means to be offensive, one shouldn't have a right to their oppinion.

Yufster

So in conclusion, I don't like you at all, and even though I never actually used the CJ JC thing.... from now on, I'm going to start. Just for you. Just because it shows disrespect for you in a special way that I never knew existed before.

I don't agree with this practice at all. Wanderlady has not viciously or purposefully intended to hurt your feelings, why should you attack him in such a way? I, personally, will at least think about a post next time I decide to make a JC post, because of Wanderlady. I do not wish to hurt anyone who has only expressed a view.

However, I will say this: If Jesus were alive today, I'm sure he'd realise that refering to CJ as 'Jesus' or 'God' or whatever is just a joke.

I completly agree with this. I think that most religions don't give their creator(s) enough credit.

I do not intend to stop CJ JC jokes, but I do wish you to know Wanderlady, that if I do make a joke, I do so without meaning to hurt your oppinions/beliefs in anyway. I don't do them often, though, so I'm not really too worried about it. And warning to the wise, this is a fairly long post.

-MillsJROSS

[MrColossal]

yufster stop acting like a 5 year old please, thank you

[Pumaman]

This is a very difficult one to call. I think you have to bear in mind that because of Christianity's dominance in the Western world, Jesus tends to be used as a reference point for a religious icon rather than any other god - this is not out of particular disrespect for your religion, rather the opposite.

Many people use "Jesus Christ!" and "Oh my God!" as expressions of shock, which you presumably also find offensive. However, they have been used for so long now that they have pretty much been absorbed into our culture.

Going by your thinking, if you were Hindu, for example, you might find Christmas offensive and request that nobody celebrate it. That would of course be your right to request, but it should not be taken as an insult if some people choose to celebrate it anyway.

Just remember that religion has been the cause of a large number of wars that this world has seen, and it would probably be a better place if everybody took their religion that little bit less seriously.

CJ: Your words bring to mind a quote as it has a semblance of wisdom, but it is not from the bible. It's from a well-known movie, said by a well-known actor.
The last line spoken by Al Pacino in 'Devil's Advocate':
(paraphrased) "Vanity...definitely my favorite sin."

I'm not sure what you're trying to say there, but if you're implying that my stance on this is because somehow I get off on being likened to Jesus, I take offense to that.

My stance on this comes from having devout Christians for parents, who used to get offended by me using terms like "Oh my God!" but have now decided to accept modern culture and get over it. It's what you believe in your heart that matters, and nothing anybody else says should be able to change that.

[TheYak]

Many things very well put there, Pumaman.  I'd like to second that "Jesus Christ" used in the CJ context is more of a cultural iconization than a reference to a deity.  

I, for one, try to avoid using (in frustration or anger or whatnot) phrases like "Jesus Christ!", "My God!","God-DAmn-it" etc.  I figure there's no reason to use them if one doesn't believe in them and that if one does believe in them, it's probably best not to use them.  

Either way, I think the best way to handle the situation is with a polite request (which was handled somewhat passably) and to leave it at that.  Let those who wish to show respect for their fellow-AGS'er at least make some attempt at avoiding offense.  I would also suggest that it be made a fair trade, however.  If the rest of the community is going to bend to WanderLady's request, I don't see why we should have statements and phrases concerning Christianity directed at us. (I'm not talking about the signature but rather religiously-oriented posts or parts of posts).  

Ah, to hell with it.. this discussion's been interesting but hasn't it gone on long enough?

[BOYD1981]

BOYD

could you not just keep your beliefs to yourself instead of trying to force them on everyone?

Hypocritical, I need not explain further.

that would only be hypocritical if i actually had any beliefs, and you read wanderlady's original post you'll notice he never said it offended him personally, he said it was harmful to our souls and that is HIS belief, so perhaps you actually do need to explain further.

[Butcher]

But isn't it wrong to reffer to Jesus Christ as Chris Jones? And isn't it written in the good book of "Bob the programmer" that Jesus was for christianity, what Chris Jones is for AGS?

Our local priest often says that "when Jesus preached on the Sina mountain, the people looked upon, and admired him as if he just released a new Beta for AGS"

Isn't that blasphemus?

I mean Jesus can't code that well!

[MillsJROSS]

that would only be hypocritical if i actually had any beliefs, and you read wanderlady's original post you'll notice he never said it offended him personally, he said it was harmful to our souls and that is HIS belief, so perhaps you actually do need to explain further.

If you didn't carry any beliefs, then WanderLady's first post woulnd't have offended you. You can't live life without beliefs, whether that be the belief in a creator or not. And so you in your statement "could you not just keep your beliefs to yourself instead of trying to force them on everyone?" are expressing a belief that WanderLady shouldn't force her beliefs on people. You, obviously, think that his forcing of his beliefs is wrong, but it's okay for you to force him not to force his beliefs (Say that sentence five times fast!).

Hell! It's even hypocritical of me to say that what your doing is hypocritical, because I'm expressing a belief by saying that your belief is hypocritical and thus void. It's hard to express a view or a belief without being hypocritical. But now I'm just blabbing. The bottom line is, why should your total lack of beliefs be any more important than WanderLady's?

And as always, any post I make is made without intent to offend, so don't take anything personal, anyone.

-MillsJROSS