Expressing Atheism

[evenwolf]

Whatever your faith please take a moment to step into this thread, look around and realize the message I'm putting forth.    I have not been an atheist for long.   In fact when I was a freshman I met a girl who I thought would go to hell,  as in some sort of abyss below the earth.  She was atheist & actually turned out to be the worst person i ever met.   Somehow, years later I found myself looking back at the horrible example of a person she was & realized that she and I were both suffering from the same dilemma.

We had been good Christians for the wrong reasons, &  that world was knocked out from under us.  When I chose atheism, I found myself bashing Christians because the doctrine & followers had led me astray for so many years.   I could not express myself in the open because the majority of Christians feel negative emotions against atheists.    During college I walked past the atheist & agnostic group & thought that they looked like the scum of the earth.     Something about doubt really scared me.   And its that fear over the years that led me straight to atheism.

I'll spare you the story and share with you someone's personal expression of their atheism.  Its a film he made as a tribute to his family  ( who believe in an afterlife )  & its something I've thought about doing.   The problem is that I'm  resentful of my childhood & my own selfish reasons for clinging onto my faith.   I get very negative about other people's faith and I don't want to do that.    Very easily, I could be one of those loud atheists who make the concept look unappealing and scary.   So I still cannot properly express my atheism.   This is the video I wish I had made:

http://www.vilekyle.com/Documentary/Why%20We%20Believe/index.htm

[SSH]

Can I just ask: do you not believe there is a God, or do you believe there is not a God?

[evenwolf]

the first one.   Not sure what you're getting at but I'm an agnostic atheist.  I do not deny the possibility of a god.


However, the god in the bible (AKA God) is one that I definitely do not believe in.

[radiowaves]

I don't quite believe in atheism. I myself am not atheist, but then again, I am not much of a religious person too, I don't follow some written manifest. Therefore, I quite cannot understand atheists, how can someone believe in nothing? I know some atheists who tend to believe in ghosts, now how can they be atheists because ghosts resemble some kind of afterlife? I believe that most people still believe in something, be it God or karma, in deep inside, they are just too buzy and happy to think about it. Take signs of zodiac for example, people are always interested what their sign is. And to be honest, by looking at people, it is quite easy to guess what zodiac sign they are and it somehow fits. Now tell me if it is pure science.

[space boy]

I get very negative about other people's faith and I don't want to do that. Very easily, I could be one of those loud atheists who make the concept look unappealing and scary. So I still cannot properly express my atheism.

When I started debating with theists I was like "Hey I think you're a total idiot for believing that crap but let's talk", which obviously is not the way to go. If you're hostile towards them from the begining they're not going to listen to you and won't be willing to explain what's behind their faith, no communication will be possible. If you want someone to listen and share their views, you have to be nice to them. This doesn't always work however. Sometimes the mere statement that you don't believe in god is such an offense for some people even if you make clear it's only your opinion and you don't want to force it onto them and you are willing to change it if given proper arguments or evidence. No matter if you're a quiet or a "militant" atheist you're going to be automatically unappealing and scary for some theists. Duh! You DON'T believe in god! You're EVIL! You don't want to talk with someone who's EVIL, do you? I got banned from many theist chatrooms without saying a word just for having "atheist"(or a variation) in my nickname.

Now what about the discussions that do "work"? Honestly I end up being quite annoyed and upset with those people. Most of the time it's dogmatic crap and no logical reasoning at all:

- "How do you know god exists?"
-"Because it's written in the bible."
-"How do you know the bible says the truth?"
-"Because god has written it."

-"How do you know god created the universe?"
-"Because everything that exists needs a creator"
-"So who created god?"
-"God has always existed."

I could go on and on. There's no "argument" for god I haven't heard and most if not all of them are fallacies that crumble in the face of logic. The problem is that belief != logic. And since logic is required for a proper debate, no proper debate with a believer is possible no matter how nice you fake to be. That is why I haven't had a religious debate in ages. It just changes nothing and leaves me very upset. When it comes to the god question, debates are useless. There's gotta be something more powerful than mere words to prove your point to the other side.

And if anyone should ask, I'm a weak atheist(or agnostic atheist).

I don't quite believe in atheism. I myself am not atheist, but then again, I am not much of a religious person too, I don't follow some written manifest. Therefore, I quite cannot understand atheists, how can someone believe in nothing? I know some atheists who tend to believe in ghosts, now how can they be atheists because ghosts resemble some kind of afterlife? I believe that most people still believe in something, be it God or karma, in deep inside, they are just too buzy and happy to think about it.

Let's get some facts right. Atheism = lack of belief in god specifically(weak atheism) or belief in the nonexistence of god specifically(strong atheism). You can be an atheist but still belief in ghosts or the afterlife. Atheism is equivalent to the statement "I don't believe in god" or "I believe there is no god". Ghosts and the afterlife are different subjects and don't fall under atheism.  I think you're confusing atheism with some materialistic world view.

Take signs of zodiac for example, people are always interested what their sign is. And to be honest, by looking at people, it is quite easy to guess what zodiac sign they are and it somehow fits. Now tell me if it is pure science.

Bullcrap.

[Khris]

I started to question the bible as soon as I found out there's no Santa or Easter bunny.
When I was 12 or 13, my religion teacher got me to become a convinced atheist (he didn't plan to do that, of course).
Right now I'd call myself an agnostic. I really don't care about religion. Something must have caused the big bang, but that's it.
I certainly don't believe in the cruel or the loving god of the bible.

Catholics are just another sect, as far as I'm concerned. They are simply numerous, which somehow gives them the right to call themselves religious. I understand that they are still looking for something, for answers, maybe. I don't claim I found them, but I'm not looking for them, either.
If I had to choose an -ism, I'd choose hedonism.

What really irritates me, though, are the esoteric people. E.g. people who believe that the zodiac sign has ANY significance. There are six billion people on earth. So 500 mil share the same character traits and day-to-day fates? Right.

And to be honest, by looking at people, it is quite easy to guess what zodiac sign they are and it somehow fits.

I bet my ass you can't guess my zodiac sign even if I stood right in front of you and you had known me for years.

@spaceboy: Seconded.

[radiowaves]

I wonder why everyone seems to act like missionary, why not just let them believe what they want... You also may want to make a difference between reiligous people and religious fundamentalists. Reading the thread "Meaning of life" gives me impression that quite many atheists aren't quite exactly atheists at all.

Its idiots like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGMuIyBK5P4 who make religion look bad.

And KhrisMUC, yes, 500 million people share similar personality. But daily basis zodiac readings are just wrong. Peoples personality can only be calculated from exact birth time etc. Sodiac sign in general just shows a certain level, like activeness. So generalized daily fates are just wrong.

[space boy]

I wonder why everyone seems to act like missionary, why not just let them believe what they want...

And let them force their creation myths into science class and blow up innocent people who don't believe in their imaginary friend. Sure.

[radiowaves]

Ah, yea America A fucked up country.

[space boy]

Ah, yea America A fucked up country.

Why do you think I'm talking only about america?

[blueskirt]

I myself am not atheist, but then again, I am not much of a religious person too, I don't follow some written manifest. Therefore, I quite cannot understand atheists, how can someone believe in nothing? I know some atheists who tend to believe in ghosts, now how can they be atheists because ghosts resemble some kind of afterlife?

There are days where I don't believe in afterlife as it makes us responsible of the world around us, it gives our actions, good or bad, much more weight, importance and emphasis, and the sole thing you'll keep on your short passage on this big blue ball will be how the world will remember you, and in which state you'll leave the place for the world's future generations. There are also days, where I'm forced to eat news about absurd genocides and other horror stories, where I see people suffering years of agony before dying in the most horrible way, where I do hope for them that there is actually something good and peaceful on the other side.

But there is a big difference between believing in some sort of afterlife and believing in god(s) from books written in a different era, who are responsible for/created everything careless of what science discovers everydays, and, while making some of us capable of the best things, made/makes the rest of us capable of horrible things that haunt and affect us for centuries to come and will leave unforgettable scars to this world.

[vict0r]

That goes for the whole world..

I don't believe in a God, but I don't think I'm completely atheistic. Call me an agnostic. I don't respect christians for their beliefs, but I let them be because they are impossible to argue with due to their lack of logic while discussing religion.

The reason I've become an agnostic is probably because my brain don't have the thinking power to cope with the fact that we are just the lovechild of extreme coincidence! As many other people, it's probably also the "death" part of life that leads me over to the agnostic side. As with the whole coincidence thing, my brain can't calculate 'nothing'.

[evenwolf]

And let them force their creation myths into science class....

I wish it was just science classes. No one pays attention in those.  Get this.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/rightsandfreedoms/a/canyonflood.htm


Who is honestly going to step up to the world's most renowned geologists and tell them that a 2 billion year old land feature was created by a flood six thousand years ago?       Our president, that's who.   Separation of church & state anyone?    We are creating a delusional world for our children.



And a nice quote from the article.   "Now that the book has become quite popular, we don't want to remove it."   

[Khris]

And KhrisMUC, yes, 500 million people share similar personality. But daily basis zodiac readings are just wrong. Peoples personality can only be calculated from exact birth time etc. Sodiac sign in general just shows a certain level, like activeness. So generalized daily fates are just wrong.

I can disprove the first sentence easily. My mother, my younger sister and I share the same zodiac sign. We are one family, I was raised mostly by my mother and spent half of my childhood in the company of my sister. Yet my personality isn't even remotely similar to neither my sister's or my mother's, e.g. I'm a convinced rationalist while my sister is heavily on the emotional side. So even though our birthdays are only three days apart (and four years), we are different on a very basic level.
How do you explain that?

Btw, evenwolf, if this is too much OT, we can take it to PMs.

[Babar]

KhrisMUC, not that I really care about astrology, but it has more to do with the day of birth. It has to do with stuff like the zodiac, yes, but also exact time of birth, day of birth, and place of birth (to calculate the position of planets, sun, moon, and stars when you were born).

About the actual topic....well....I believe in God, but it's not because I fear the afterlife or some such thing. If you knew of the existence of God, what would the afterlife have to do with believing in God?

[evenwolf]

I think Zodiac is a little extreme for the subject.    If another thread popped up I would gladly chime in about how stupid it is.  But yes,  here just makes no sense at all.  Year of the dog represent!


This community is full of atheists.  I mean, percentage wise... I've never seen so many in one place.  Does anybody have trouble bringin it up in public or among friends?   I get the feeling I'm becoming that guy who laughs about something I find ridiculous & the person next to me is silently offended.    The internet helps with anonymity but moreso I think it offers an escape from a regional conformity.

[deadsuperhero]

Eh, I sort of have a shopping cart religion. Which is awesome, because I can believe whatever I want, and not really care. Is that atheism? Maybe, maybe not.
But, I respect other people's beliefs, and I don't really think much of it when someone says "I'm a Christian" or "I'm Jewish."I just say "That's nice.", and we get along fine.
In other news, Shopping Cart Religions are awesome. You take a little of the Christian shelf, a little of the Wiccan shelf, a bit from the Bhuddist shelf...it's great.
That said, I'll probably end up being a Christian again. Because well, I tend to just bounce back to it.
In any case, believe what you want to believe. Don't let anyone tell you what to think. Not even me.

[ildu]

Hey, Macaulay Culkin is exactly 4 years older than (to the day) and I still haven't broken out as a child actor, let alone gone to rehab and made a comeback!

[Wellington]

As far as I can tell, the only universally acceptable way of defending one's beliefs is to live honestly and compassionately. One of the advantages of being an atheist, is that there needn't be any moral weight placed upon spreading the non-Gospel, or declaring atheism's superiority. Christians, in contrast, are placed in the unpleasant position of believing that they MUST spread their beliefs, or people will suffer forever. For us, no afterlife is at stake, so there is no need to convert anyone. The only time when one needs to express one's atheism is when atheism is being misunderstood or abused - and defenses should never be petulant.

It's too easy to damage the public perception of agnosticism and atheism by looking too dogmatic. Here's one trap.

A) If you are an atheist for rational reasons, then you must believe that it is rational to be an atheist.
B) Therefore, you must consider all religious people irrational.

This seems sane enough, but it's completely off-base. First, a person may be rational in evaluating some pieces of evidence, and completely biased in other respects. Second, a religious upbringing can give a person a strong, consistent perception that a benevolent God is hovering somewhere just out of sight. The rest of us might well say that this is just indoctrination, but to tell another person, without strong positive evidence, to disregard a consistent sense - even if it's a hallucinatory one - seems to be unreasonable. Better to say that this sort of feeling can't be evidence for anybody but the believer.

Summary: Don't express atheism by knocking religion. Express it by celebrating and perpetuating critical thought.

[evenwolf]

All what you just said was inspiring, in that sort of way I wish I could think same as you.   But I'm afraid it'll be some time before I can attack it that way.

the thing about fighting for an afterlife or lost souls.... I actually do see the delusions of children as sort of the same thing.    Getting them to believe in santa clause and then ripping that away from them.    People conform to that too easily I think.