"If I Were The Devil" -Paul Harvey

[Squinky]

[Haddas]

"I am right. You are wrong."

Personally I find these kinds of debates pointless. They will not lead to any change and will possibly upset many people. However, over the last few months I have been more involved on american dominated forums and I must say that I could never even imagine that a nation like the Unitded States still takes religion seriously. I mean, in the way that it dictates their lives and clouds reason. And the huge underlying hypocrisy aswell. And the intolerance aswell. Sure, homosexuality may be wrong, but are you any better HATING people for it? Read the ten commandments if you will and see which ones christians are breaking in anti-gay campaigns.

To clarify I'm not religious, but I do follow christian morals and usually put others before myself.

I consider myself more "Spiritual" than "Religious", and the Bible is sort of like a "Guideline", and philosophy that I can try to implement into my life, but really it's up to ME as an Individual human being to discover what the message of the Bible means to me.  In my many years of "soul-searching", I've read the Bible, as well as many books about philosophy,  books about Buddhism & Taoism and other similar such works.  And really, I don't see the overall message from being so different from one concept, "belief" or "way" than the others.  Most of them I see share a very similar message, Examples might include similarities between different beliefs such as "Be good to others. Love others. Respect Others. Respect and appreciate life." type of messages. 

We are alike, Barbarian.


Also. Anytime a religious person comes up to me and asks me if I believe in God and if I think I'll goto Heaven i answer "I will find out soon enough. And even if you are trying to convert me I say that if I'm ever going to convert then I will do so in my own due time and not by scare-tactics or advertising." and then I walk away. Not that this has happened a lot. Once... In Britain. That was a funny situation.

[ManicMatt]

Sure, homosexuality may be wrong, but are you any better HATING people for it? Read the ten commandments if you will and see which ones christians are breaking in anti-gay campaigns.

So even though you think it's wrong, you don't dis-respect people for it, is this correct? If so, we may have a difference in opinion but I'll have respect for you if you're not telling people they should be heterosexual.

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

What I find wrong with religion (and not God) is that it's old... I think I've said it elsewhere, but still society goes on and religion should go on along. Otherwise this is what you get.

Question: Do we have anybody in these forums that don't believe in God, the christian way, but believe in Bhuda or Allah or whatever. Cause Iwould be very interested to hear his opinion on Pauls , truly close minded, broadcast while abusing the power of the internet and the power of his own name...

Well, I'm a Baha'i. Does that count? (I believe in God and am not Christian; however, I believe that the Judeo-Christian God, Allah, Buddha, and what have you are one and the same, and that different religions were revealed at different times according to the needs of humanity at said times.)

In any case, here's what I think:

"If I Were The Devil" by Paul Harvey

First of all, let me clarify that I think of such concepts as "Hell" and "The Devil" in a strictly metaphorical sense; in other words, they represent such things as feeling far away from God and suffering the consequences of one's actions. General unhappiness. That sort of thing.

I would gain control of the most powerful nation in the world;

Personally, it bothers me how power has historically been the most important value that our society strives toward. What about cooperation? Unity? Peace? Also, I don't believe in nations and all that crap. A common Baha'i quote is "the Earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens", which I wholeheartedly agree with.

I would delude their minds into thinking that they had come from man's effort, instead of God's blessings;

This is a half-truth. I believe that God has blessed us with the ability to do and create extraordinary things. However, actually using this ability requires that we exercise it, rather than sit around and expect that God will magically do great things for us.

I would promote an attitude of loving things and using people, instead of the other way around;

I agree with this.

I would dupe entire states into relying on gambling for their state revenue;

The point is not to stop gambling. Along with power, money is another thing that's overrated in our society. If we stop wanting material prosperity above all other things, then we will stop gambling, simple as that.

I would convince people that character is not an issue when it comes to leadership;

Again, I bring it back to the whole want for power. Still, character is important when dealing with anyone.

I would make it legal to take the life of unborn babies;

Again, a Band-Aid solution to a much bigger problem. It's not the abortions we should be concerned about, but the fact that people are having sex way too early and are way too uneducated about its consequences.

I would make it socially acceptable to take one's own life, and invent machines to make it convenient;

We should be working to make the world a better place to live in so that no one will feel the need to commit suicide.

I would cheapen human life as much as possible so that life of animals are valued more than human beings;

Ha! Tell that to an animal rights activist, why don't you?

I would take God out of the schools, where even the mention of His name was grounds for a lawsuit;

What use is belief in God if it is forced upon another person? Belief in God is much more effective and useful to the human soul if it is a personal choice.

I would come up with drugs that sedate the mind and target the young, and I would get sports heroes to advertise them;

I'm against the consumption of alcohol and drugs, and think that the world would be a much better place if they didn't exist. I guess this means I agree with this particular point.

I would get control of the media, so that every night I could pollute the minds of every family member for my agenda;

I'm not very happy with many of the things that the media promotes. However, I wouldn't say that its messages are the product of one person or organization trying to hoist its agenda upon innocent people; they are, instead, a reflection of the values our society has collectively accepted over the centuries. If the world as a whole changes, then the media will change as well.

I would attack then family, the backbone of any nation. I would make divorce acceptable and easy, even fashionable. If the family crumbles, so does the nation;

I think families are important. I don't think divorces should be made easy; I think marriages should be made harder to get into. That being said, the Leave It To Beaver ideal of a family isn't all that great either. It's a bit too patriarchal for my tastes, and I believe in the equality of men and women.

I would compel people to express their most depraved fantasies on canvas and movies screens, and I would call it art;

Again, the media is a reflection of the society we live in. The fact that art is depraved signifies that our society is depraved.

I would convince the world that people are born homosexuals, and that their lifestyles should be accepted and marveled;

I have issues with homosexuality being considered genetic; genes have little if any effect on behaviour. I have even more issues with the concept of a fixed, inborn sexuality; recent studies and past experiences seem to suggest to me that sexuality is more of a fluid, dynamic thing. Furthermore, I have issues with the concept of "the homosexual" (or "the heterosexual") as a specific type of person; contrary to popular belief, this sort of reasoning is very recent, coming into being in the 18th century at a time when the scientific community took an obsessive interest in abnormal sexual behaviour and sought to categorize it. Before that, sex was seen as merely an act, and didn't seem to define you as a person the way it does now. (I could talk about this subject all day if anyone was interested, but I probably should get back to the point at hand...)

That being said, I am completely against being prejudiced against homosexuals. Then again, I'm also completely against prejudice against ANYONE.

I would convince the people that right and wrong are determined by a few who call themselves authorities and refer to their agendas as politically correct;

It is unfortunate that many religious leaders are not concerned about the well-being of the human race, but about having power and influence over others. That being said, it doesn't mean that all morality should be thrown out the window.

I would persuade people that the church is irrelevant and out of date, the Bible is for the naive:

Out of date, well, yes. Christianity was started two thousand years ago. Many of its teachings were specifically targeted for people who lived two thousand years ago. Our world is a dynamic and ever-evolving one; why should we expect that everything that was applicable to humanity two thousand years ago is applicable to us now? When you reach adolescence, do you have the same privileges and responsibilities as you did when you were a child? When you reach adulthood, are you not governed by a different set of laws than you were as an adolescent?

The Christians among you might recall that God promised Abraham that He would never leave Man alone. In this case, it simply doesn't make sense that God would send a Messenger once and forget about us. Even Christ Himself said that He would return. (Personally, I believe that He already has, but still, that's up to each and every individual to decide on his or her own.)

That being said, the Bible is not necessarily naive. Much of what Jesus had to say still applies today; we should still try our best to love one another, after all. The problem of naivety, I find, tends to come when we people read the Bible in a literal sense, rather than in an allegorical sense.

I would dull the minds of Christians, and make them believe that prayer is not important, and that faithfulness and obedience are optional;

Prayer IS important. So is faithfulness and obedience. If they are forced on a person, however, they are utterly useless.

I GUESS I WOULD LEAVE THINGS PRETTY MUCH THE WAY THEY ARE!

Okay, I get it. The world we live in today leaves much to be desired. I agree completely. But could you please stop yelling? It's making my head hurt.

[Haddas]

Sure, homosexuality may be wrong, but are you any better HATING people for it? Read the ten commandments if you will and see which ones christians are breaking in anti-gay campaigns.

So even though you think it's wrong, you don't dis-respect people for it, is this correct? If so, we may have a difference in opinion but I'll have respect for you if you're not telling people they should be heterosexual.

Actually what I meant is that some might see homosexuality as being wrong. I mean, I don't see homosexuals as any lesser people than others. If I were, I'd have to stop talking to my oldest cousin. One of the nicest guys in the family. A very LARGE yamily at that.

[ildu]

I'm really proud of the church system in Finland. Like other Lutheran countries, it isn't there to cram anything down anyone's throat. It's more of a social establishment. I support the church (by paying the church tax) for one sole reason: They do some awesome work on the social front. They have support programs for the poor, the handicapped, the young and the old of which I'm truly proud of. I haven't been in a church for some 8 years now and I probably won't start even when I get kids either. I'm not sure if I'll even have a church wedding or baptize my children, but if I do, it will be purely traditional, not religious.

And I do respect those who have faith. Religion can definately be a source of strength and a base for morals and values. Still it's more about the values than it is about heaven, hell, Jesus or God. Unfortunately, some modern countries still divulge in the arcane idea from the Middle Ages that religion overpowers individualism. It's simply irresponsible, unfair and lazy to fully contribute what you are and what you do to a power other than yourself.

[vict0r]

Yesh! Teh homos is teh 3v1L!!!

No... Not really. My cousine is actually gay, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with him. I want to know why christian extremists (looking for rharpes opinions especially) think that being gay is being evil. What have they possibly done to cause people any harm?(other than the harm everyone do all the time) Actually, gay people do more good than bad! Just look at all the designers and hairdressers.( )

[Akumayo]

I agree mostly with Barbian, along with the way he treats people and respects others and life itself, but I feel as though God is indeed also worshipped by other religions, and that he has sent different messangers to teach people about him, and they have all accepted or not accepted him in different ways, creating "different" and "diverse" religions, when really we're all looking up at the same face. Ã, Only our eyes mask our judgement. Ã, I believe that as long as you: respect others, don't cast down others becuase they believe in things you don't, and realise that your opinion is neither better nor worse than anyone elses as long as neither involves hurting others in any way- then you have acheived enlightenment to some degree, and are indeed a good person.

..........I feel sorry for poor Paul Harvey.....

-Regards, Glacies Akumayo

[Squinky]

Excellent Post Stranger.

I am a church going person myself, and I go pretty much for the reasons ildu mentions. It is social, gives my kids a good place to hang out, and I have gotten to do some good things there. Giving gifts to children at x-mas,fixing up peoples houses, paying some on kids college, stuff like that. I used to be in law enforcement and got to see the bad side of humanity, so it was good for me to see people helping others.

I, of course, will let my children make their own choices and love them the same. Like inqusitive stranger says, it means nothing if it is forced.

Not every christian is forceful and crazy though guys, most of the ones I know really try to respect other opinions, in fact most of the time when people find out that I am religious it opens me up to ridicule and arguements.

About the gay issue, I know that at my church it isn't that big of a deal. The old timers get all nuts about it, but I don't see why. I used to work with a gay woman that went to church and I don't think God hates her, so why should I? She is a good person, if not a bit troubled by the combination of her sexaulity and religion sometimes conflicting.

But regardless of your faith, you have to have a sense of humor and an open mind.

[DGMacphee]

There is no devil.

There's only Keyser Soze.

P.S. Why's everyone debating rharpe on this? Don't you know already he's stark raving bonkers? Rharpe, we get it. You love Jesus and hate the devil. Now be quiet and let us heathens get back to our jizz-tacular orgies!

[rharpe]

Rharpe, we get it. You love Jesus and hate the devil.

I just posted the link because I agreed with it. Who said anything about a debate. Everyone knows where I stand on these issues... there really is nothing to debate.

I want to know why christian extremists (looking for rharpes opinions especially) think that being gay is being evil.

If you would like to know my view on this subject, PM me.

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

Not every christian is forceful and crazy though guys, most of the ones I know really try to respect other opinions, in fact most of the time when people find out that I am religious it opens me up to ridicule and arguements.

Ironically enough, I often feel that telling people I'm religious is as nerve-wracking as coming out of the closet. I'd even go so far as to say that being gay, these days, is more accepted than being religious, especially if you're a university student living in a rather liberal area of the world.

P.S. Why's everyone debating rharpe on this? Don't you know already he's stark raving bonkers? Rharpe, we get it. You love Jesus and hate the devil. Now be quiet and let us heathens get back to our jizz-tacular orgies!

I don't think he's stark raving bonkers. Some of the points he makes are valid. Free speech isn't limited to liberal-minded people, after all.

Who said anything about a debate. Everyone knows where I stand on these issues... there really is nothing to debate.

There isn't? Well, poo.

What about discussions? Can we have discussions?

[iamus]

I think the main point here is the title of Mr. Harper's piece.

If I was the Devil. Not if you were the Devil. Or If they were the Devil.

What he's doing is seperating out his own moral code, all the things that he finds morally acceptable/unacceptable and polarising them into self/not-self categories. One thing is good, the other is not. Once he's done that, he's grafting it onto his ingrained Christian framework, which is handily pre-polarised into good and evil.

All he's doing is telling us about things that piss him off (a number of which are perfectly valid) using Christian metaphors to do so. Don't be duped into thinking he's talking objective truth just because he mentions God. It's a bit of paint on a soapbox is all.

If you really want to get into it, it's actually a bit temple and marketplace.


Apart from that, not too sure what he's trying to achieve. There's a lot of undesirable things going on in the world, sure. But what about the rest? Surely one should be identifying and empowering the postitive things in life, instead of brooding on everything that's wrong. That'll never do anyone any good. And it'll give you indigestion.

If I were the Devil, I'd create butterflies and rainbows and wee fishies and creativity and jokes and dancing and basic, common, honest-to-goodness human decency.

I GUESS I WOULD LEAVE THINGS PRETTY MUCH THE WAY THEY ARE! etc. etc.

[Renal Shutdown]

Rhape, and all the other "Christians"* out there:

You're s'posed to Love Thy Neighbour, right? Does that mean forcing your beliefs onto people who don't want them? Ã, What kind of a reward do you get for a conversion? Ã, I have my own beliefs, and I only explain them if other people ask me. Ã, I don't stand on street corners preaching to people. Ã, I don't bring it up in as many posts and threads as I possibly can.

Fact: Most wars are about religion. Ã, Take this forum, for example. Ã, You mention religious beliefs, and you're bound to get people arguing both sides. Ã, Why can't people see that everyone is entitled to live their life how they want. Ã, (Free Will, a common aspect of most religions). Ã, I don't go telling people what their favorite color is, or whether or not they should like mustard. Ã, Why should they tell me I'm going to suffer enternal damnation for not believing exactly the same thing as them. Ã, Beliefs should be a personal thing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone who's religious is a zealot. Ã, I just can't see why the zealots can't let other people live their lives in peace, without telling them how to live. Ã, 

Morals is another thing, but that's got nothing to do with religion. Ã, (Some priests molest children. Ã, Most Satanists don't.. Ã, Which is right?). Ã, Morals come from your upbringing and your surroundings. Ã, The undiscovered tribes in the rain forests didn't have Bibles, or Qo'rans (sp) or any other mainstream religious texts. Ã, That doesn't me they were running around being mean to everyone else.

Hopefully, this is the last "I believe this.." thread I see in this forum, because to tell you the truth, I'm sick of hearing about how good or non-existent God is. Ã, Let people decide for themselves.



Also, as to the original post, I personally agree with several points this Paul Harvey made.Ã,  And to conclude my own, he didn't force anyone to agree with him.

EDIT:
*I forgot this originally.  The asterisk is because you can't pin a person down to just being a "Christian", it's always something more precise.

[iamus]

Morals is another thing, but that's got nothing to do with religion. Ã, (Some priests molest children. Ã, Most Satanists don't.. Ã, Which is right?).

I agree with some of what you're saying here spleen. But that's a bit of an unexamined statement. That could just as easily be rephrased (Most preists don't molest children. Some Satanists do.. Which is right?).

Also don't confuse Satanism and Devil-worship. They are two distinctly different things. Satanism itself doesn't actually have a whole lot to do with either side of Christianity.

[Renal Shutdown]

There's been more paedophile priests in the news over the years, and since it's happened in predominently Christian areas, I'd assume the news is accurate.  It a Satanist touched a choir boy, the western world would be all over it like a fat kid on a cup cake.

As for "Satanist", it was just an example of a non-mainstream religion that is. on the whole, considered to be a good religion.  Devil-Worshipping or Paganism would have been adequate substitutes.

[voh]

I am getting so incredibly sick of people going on about how you can't live a fulfilling life without God. I am without God, and have always been. I can honestly say that I live a life that is perfectly fine, and I don't need a shepherd, I don't need a guide to find that heavenly place after death.

If I'm meant to be there, I'll be there. If not, tough. If there's something after life, that's a whole new adventure to deal with. If there isn't, then I guess that by that time I'll just be done and over with.

I am a reasonable person, and I don't hate anyone for what they believe in. I respect those who believe in God, Allah or whatever God they've put their hope and faith in. I accept that some have different beliefs than I do, and I expect them to do the same. But if people get in my face and start telling me I'm going to hell because I don't embrace the word of God, then by golly, fuck off.

Respect for one another is one of the most important principles I live for. Prejudice is a foul thing, and hating somebody because of what they believe in, or because of what colour of skin they have, or even what they do in the privacy of their own bedroom is just arrogant and childish. As if, because one knows God, the absolute truth has permeated every inch of their body. As if, because of the faith one has in God, you are suddenly his chosen medium to communicate with the world.

What is it with all of those Christians who feel they need to convert every non-believer? Are they truly so thick in the mind that they think they're the ones responsible for fixing what can't be fixed?

If God exists, and all the stories the Bible tells us aren't stories, then this is his own fault. How can someone be infallible if he creates mankind, then gives them free will but punishes them when they use it to do something he doesn't like? It's like a father telling his son he'll support him in whatever career he chooses to follow, but tosses him in a pit in the backyard when he hears his son has chosen to be a pornstar. That's just retarded logic.

Satan was created by God. Satan didn't agree with God. God cast him out. Oh, boohoo, Satan is running amuck amongst the silly mortals! The silly mortals, who are God's favourite, who he punished for showing free will (eve taking the apple, against God's wishes), and then punishes even more in regular life, for the things HE has made possible for us to do? If God hadn't intended us to sin, we wouldn't even consider sinning. Given the fact that EVERYONE sins from time to time (everybody tells lies, however small they are, and everyone has coveted something from someone else, however small the coveted subject was), and the fact that if this is all Satan's work, he's got (by now) more of a stranglehold on humanity than God does, what does this say?

God is a perverse character, who punishes those he loves the most for things he allowed them to do in the first place, and is letting one of his ex-disciples take over humanity's world without lifting a single finger.

Nah, that don't fly for me. It's all too random and too all-encompassing. There's no way any sane entity would allow this situation to exist. And if an entity that does allow this to exist, is real, he or she, maybe even it, is not sane at all, and definitely fallible.

[IM NOT TEH SPAM]

This whole debate is ridiculous.  What are we arguing about?

Oh, and this:

(Some priests molest children.  Most Satanists don't..  Which is right?

It's easy to reverse that... Some isn't most and Most isn't all... I believe in god, I pray when I do something wrong... I don't rape children... my family, also who believe in god never have done so either... My friends, their parents, ect. ect.  Most religeous people aren't child molesters... Satanists put their trust in what is considered the most evil entity ever to have existed.

I would like to believe we all get what we deserve in the end, and I hate to think there's nothing after.  Any time something like that crosses my mind I'm depressed the rest of the day.  Mind you, I've never read a word of the bible ever. 

Another thing though:
Enough with the insulting of christians!  Not all christians are fanatics.  Not all fanatics are christians.  Enough is enough!  I know many christians, not one has said to me "You're greek catholic, your going to hell because of the slightest of differences between the names".  It's bothering me more and more whenever someone says "Christiants... " or something to that extent.  I'm not saying that no christians are fanatics.  But theres plenty of other kinds.

[voh]

I believe in god, I pray when I do something wrong... I don't rape children... my family, also who believe in god never have done so either... My friends, their parents, ect. ect.  Most religeous people aren't child molesters...

I don't believe in god, and I don't pray when I do something wrong... I don't rape children... my family, also, of which some believe in God have never done so either... My friends, their parents, etc. etc. Most non-religious people aren't child molesters.

I like it better this way. Christians aren't bad people. Duh. They're people, who have inherent flaws and good points, and they just happen to be Christians. Christians can be serial killers, just as non-Christians can be serial killers. Rapist come in all forms and shapes, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Pastafarians, it doesn't matter.

Religion is a set of belief one has for himself. It's a very personal thing. I think that's fine. I've got no problems whatsoever with someone believing in God. It's the whole organised religion thing that sometimes gives me the heebie-jeebies. Because then religion isn't a very personal thing anymore. It's something you share with people - people who are fallible. People who make mistakes and say the wrong things. When you've got your own set of principles, and they're Christian principles, all is well.

But if someone comes along and tells you that he views those principles in a different way, interprets the bible slightly differently, and hence comes to the conclusion that thing

• is evil, because in a way, the Bible sort of maybe kind of says so, and people follow them, it's a scary thing.
  
  Religion doesn't mean turning off your conscious thoughts. Be religious - fine, that's your own thing, and if you get faith and hope from it, which in turn makes you feel more secure, knowing that there's more, then I can only say I'm happy for you that you have something that I seemingly don't. But don't ever dare to assume that those who do not embrace God are by definition not good people.
  
  We have principles too. And going by the ten commandments, I break a fair few. I don't believe in the existence of God, since I don't believe in him I'm unable to comply to the wish to not have any gods beside him, because he's not my God, I sometimes take the name of God in vain and sometimes I do covet things that happen to or belong to another.
  
  But I also uphold a fair few of them (the sensible ones, imnsho), like not murdering, not committing adultery, not stealing, honouring my father and mother, remembering the Sabbath day (while perhaps not keeping it holy, but I respect the sunday and how some few it).
  
  I'm not a horrible person, and definitely not so because I'm not a Christian. My grandparents are Christian. When my grandfather died, I went to the church service, recited along with the rest of them, but didn't take the hosti or communion wine. Why? Because I would feel like a hypocrit. Because I respect my family's feeling for taking the hosti and communion wine being a part of their belief and didn't want to make a false statement of belief.
  
  Respect. I've mentioned that before, haven't I?

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

I think the main point here is the title of Mr. Harper's piece.

Mr. Harper? The new Prime Minister of Canada?

If God hadn't intended us to sin, we wouldn't even consider sinning... God is a perverse character, who punishes those he loves the most for things he allowed them to do in the first place, and is letting one of his ex-disciples take over humanity's world without lifting a single finger.

So, what would you rather have, a God who hands us everything on a silver platter, without making us work for it? A perfect world where everyone's happy and nothing bad ever happens to anyone for any reason? If that were to happen, then what would we learn? How would we grow as human beings?

This whole debate is ridiculous. Ã, What are we arguing about?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm having a great time. This debate is not ridiculous. It is interesting. I'm learning a lot from what people have been saying in this thread and others, and I hope people are learning something from what I have to say. A lot of people here only care about being right. I don't. I like to debate because it gives me a chance to test the strengths of my beliefs about the world and change them if necessary. I honestly don't understand why you people are getting so annoyed.