London Riots - OR - What's your favourite thing about Hitler?

[WHAM]

I believe a person who disproportionately causes harm to others for personal gain should receive as much punishment as is appropriate.

Look at this picture (link):
http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/london_riots/bp23.jpg
"Aaron Biber, 89, assesses the damage to his hairdressing salon after riots on Tottenham High Road on August 7, 2011. (Dan Kitwood/Getty Images)"

Just to be safe, look at the whole gallery:
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/08/london_riots.html

Now ask who did this and why. Why did the 89 year old barber and thousands of others have their businesses and lives ruined?

I'll just wait until you have your answers to those questions.

. . .

Now that you do have answsers to my questions, I believe you've answered your own one as well.

[Atelier]

And in my book, if you have an attitude like that towards society, you don't deserve to be part of society. What is so wrong with that?

Because people make mistakes. These are *kids*. You think they should be just kicked out of society for a mistake at 16 years old?

Yes. By then they should know that destroying an innocent person's home, business, car etc is wrong. And nobody makes the accidental purposeful mistake of wearing their best hoody and going out for a few hours looting.

Aside from that, I'm astounded how anybody can actually defend them. Oh they are such poor souls. Their lives are so oppressive, so hard, in comparison to people dying from starvation and disease in Kenyan refugee camps. It's not fair how they're given the chance at a free education. It's not fair their life is served to them on a silver platter. Society must change! Actually no fuck that, why don't they change their attitude and be grateful for living in a country that strives to do everything for them?

[Creed Malay]

 Some kids near where I live attacked a police station, as far as I can tell, just because they'd seen stuff on the news and wanted to join in, so presumably they liked the look of it.
There were seven of them. The police pretty much sat on them.

I read something about taking away their benefits and I really hope that happens

So then you have a load of people who have already shown that they are willing to violently steal who have no legal means of supporting themselves. That don't sound like it'd work out too well, I doubt they'd go "Oh, that's me shown, I guess I'll sit down quietly and starve to death now." Something definitely needs to be done to address the problem, but forcing people into crime to survive isn't the answer.

I read a paper.

While I'm in agreement that a lot of the rioters were probably in it for nothing but personal gain, I think we've learned recently in the UK that the press really isn't to be trusted.

I believe a person who disproportionately causes harm to others for personal gain should receive as much punishment as is appropriate.

Slightly off topic, but this is something that interests me, I find our human urge/need(?) for revenge pretty fascinating. If, as a hypothetical, criminal behaviour was found to be caused purely by a chemical imbalance in the brain, and could be fixed just by giving someone a pill, would you be happy to have captured criminals given this pill and then sent on their way free, cured and good citizens, or would you still want them to be made to suffer some?

Now ask who did this and why. Why did the 89 year old barber and thousands of others have their businesses and lives ruined?
I'll just wait until you have your answers to those questions.

I wish we could answer this question. If we could say why people like to hurt each other, we'd be on our way to somewhere better. I'm coming more and more to the opinion that it's just because we're primates, and that's what we're like. And I can't see much that can be done about that.

[Chicky]

This whole 'they rioted therefore deserve all the shit we can throw them!' argument is pathetic. WHAM, you sound like an angry teenager who needs something to rant about. Sorry man, you're cool and stuff otherwise.

Now ask who did this and why. Why did the 89 year old barber and thousands of others have their businesses and lives ruined?

I'll just wait until you have your answers to those questions.

. . .

Now that you do have answsers to my questions, I believe you've answered your own one as well.

The chavs rioted, they smashed shit, they beat people up. This is nothing new in England, this happens every weekend, the only difference is the sheer magnitude of the events. I go out drinking with a girlfriend, we get abuse shouted across a car park, we ignore it, they approach, we get threatened and knocked around, we leave, the chavs go smash up a building site, throw half the materials in the local pond.

These are the people that started the rioting, they did it because they're fucking stupid and have been allowed to get away with it hundreds of times before. When i was but a young teen there was a large fight in my town, a group of say 20 of us 'rockers' and 30 odd 'chavs'. After having the shit scared out of us and a friend held at knife point the police arrive, what do they do? They restrain us whilst the scummy little inbreeders make a run for it.

Now to my point, if i were there when these lads are running off with a new TV and a massive grin; and there was a say a Canon 5D mkII sat waiting to be taken (then most likely smashed by one of them), i'm not sure i would be able to resist taking it. But then it's these people that the police are clamping down on, when in reality a lot of them were probably just jumping on the bandwagon. "why should they get a load of cool free stuff" comes to mind.

I'm not justifying their actions, there's a reason we all didn't start stealing shit. But it's pretty blatant who the real offenders are in this situation. Why waste time punishing someone with a new pair of shoes when there were people throwing fire bombs and brutally attacking innocent bystanders.

[WHAM]

@Chicky: I personally believe that punishments for crime should be tougher all around. I truly want to believe that the majority of us humans are civilized and "good people", and that those few who break the law and loot and riot should be punished so heavily that they will either be removed from the society or forced to conform.

Maybe I am naive, maybe I am, as you say, "and angry teenager with a rant", but still I want to believe.

I want to add that I believe the only reason people defend actions like this, or seek to lessen the punishments for criminals, is due to these people being criminals on some level themselves. I see no other reason to defend such activity, which has no place in a civilized society's streets. If people want violent entertainment, let them have an arena and televize the figts, actually, lets just put all criminals in an arena and commercialize their deaths. This would be fine by me. Radical, tough, extreme, but hellishly effective.

Feel free to disagree, but think about it. Do we need prisons? Do we need to pamper criminals? Or could we put these creatures that are closer to beast than a person to some sort of use that could serve the rest of us?

[Tuomas]

  Someone I know suggested we take all hoodies out of the country  and onto an isolated island on the Pacific... Now, wouldn't that be great? Until they'd figured how to build boats and come back we'd get ourselves few years of peace and quiet...

Battle Royale, anyone? But hide th cameras, or they'll steal them

[Creed Malay]

 @wham - But does punishing people incredibly harshly stop them from transgressing again? The American prison system looks pretty nightmarish, but they have a very high re-offending rate.
If it isn't effective, then doesn't the desire for such a system speak of sadism in those who desire it?

[WHAM]

Battle Royale, anyone? But hide th cameras, or they'll steal them

I approve of this.

@Creed Maladay
As I said above: prisons are ineffective as you eventually get out of them. When criminals are released, their criminal record keeps them from jobs and ensures their lives remain miserable. It would be better to do something else with such individuals. I say we reinstate the roman colosseum!

No, seriously! What was the name of the Schwartzenegger movie where they did something similiar? THAT would be awesome entertainment!

[Snarky]

I want to add that I believe the only reason people defend actions like this, or seek to lessen the punishments for criminals, is due to these people being criminals on some level themselves.

I believe the only people making arguments like that are closeted (or not-so-closeted) fascists. And if you disagree with that, you must be a child molester.

Hey, this is a nifty form of argument!

[Atelier]

@Chicky: I personally believe that punishments for crime should be tougher all around. I truly want to believe that the majority of us humans are civilized and "good people", and that those few who break the law and loot and riot should be punished so heavily that they will either be removed from the society or forced to conform.

Maybe I am naive, maybe I am, as you say, "and angry teenager with a rant", but still I want to believe.

I want to add that I believe the only reason people defend actions like this, or seek to lessen the punishments for criminals, is due to these people being criminals on some level themselves. I see no other reason to defend such activity, which has no place in a civilized society's streets. If people want violent entertainment, let them have an arena and televize the figts, actually, lets just put all criminals in an arena and commercialize their deaths. This would be fine by me. Radical, tough, extreme, but hellishly effective.

Feel free to disagree, but think about it. Do we need prisons? Do we need to pamper criminals? Or could we put these creatures that are closer to beast than a person to some sort of use that could serve the rest of us?

I agree with lots of what you say. On one hand prisons are ideal for violent offenders (to protect the average person rather than for their own good)... instead I'd like prisons to be a last resort, and the average crim to be put on community service more often! Give them hard work, not a prison cell! Clear up the litter, mow the public park, scrape the chewing gum off pavements, tend to the flowers (ok now I'm pushing it).

Now that I think about it, what kind of punishment is locking somebody up anyway? It's like putting a child on the naughty step, but for longer and with more mental trauma, and with other kids who can give you tricks on the next best way to steal from the cookie jar! And the dad (prison guards) may slip you some sweets (drugs) if you're lucky.

However WHAM you lost me when you spoke about televising bloodshed It reminds me of something... I can't quite place it...

Oh yeah, the Middle Ages. This is 2011 not 1311! And just think of how many complaints would go through OFCOM!

[Calin Leafshade]

What we could do is round all the rioters up and then just gun them down. Kill them.

That would solve the problem, right? [/sarcasm]

[ddq]

It saddens me that you actually do need that /sarcasm tag here. Killing people is bad plzkthnx

[RickJ]

The American prison system looks pretty nightmarish, but they have a very high re-offending rate.

Duh!  They are professional criminals; it's what they do. 

Over the past decade "three strikes laws", where a third felony conviction carries a life sentence, have been all the rage.  In states where it's been adopted crime rates have significantly fallen.  After a while you run out of people who choose crime as a profession.

[Calin Leafshade]

The prison system in the US is also excellent at propping up the economy, providing slave labour for menial tasks.

Everyone loves slavery.

[WHAM]

Okay, I'm starting to feel like a troll or an angsty teenager, so I'll stop spouting my madness after this.

@Atelier: Actually I'm not thinking of the middle / dark ages, I'm going even further back to the glorious Roman empire around 2050 years ago. They actually did put criminals either into a colosseum for a good show, or made slaves out of them, with no moral issues or thought about "human rights". While I'm not a fan of raping and pillaging, you have to admit they had some good things going on back there.

Sorry for ranting guys! WHAM, out!

[Calin Leafshade]

I am actually speechless.

[ddq]

I am nearly speechless. The only speech remaining is the speech conveying that I am nearly speechless and that the only speech remaining is the speech conveying that I am nearly speechless and that the only speech remaining is the and so on and so forth.

[Grim]

I'm sorry but I actually agree with Wham...

Without further explaining, I'll let this link speak of the solution I have in mind for this problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVOSfHFNlcI

And, Dual, I don't think you realize what British hoodies are like... Perhaps it's a bit different in Greece, especially since recent problems you had... But thugs here are real something....

[veryweirdguy]

I can see this thread is diving headfirst into nonsenseville,

Told you!

Not enough people in this thread have seen Attack The Block, and when the alien invasion comes, they won't know who to turn to.

[Matti]

Let's shoot the poor. They're not 'productive' anyway.

Just a thought!