New leads, yay... hopefully these will turn out to be fruitful:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6641899.stm
This story is really saddening me...
Child abductions are awfully sad... and terrifying... the thought of anybody ever taking away one of my little babies just fills me with dread...
What angers me too, is that people feel justified in kidnapping and abusing children... and then murdering them. The very least they could do is let the child go. Why does it always end with murder?
How cruel and selfish these people are... they should be tortured for the rest of their days. Seriously, if that little girl is murdered, then the killer should tortured and ever-so-slowly killed, not before being raped in the ass of course. By dogs.
Anyway... I'm following this story closely. I still have a lot of hope that Madeleine is still alive...
Let' s be preppaired for the worse, hoping the best... :-\
What kind of parents leave a 3-year-old and two 2-year-olds alone in a foreign country while they go out to eat?
Most parents.
They were very close to the apartment, they knew their children and probably knew that they'd stay soundly asleep for the entire duration of their meal. They checked on them every half hour.
Most parents will happily leave their children upstairs, sleeping on their own, without checking them the entire night. It would have seemed no different from doing that, really.
It was a family friendly resort and considered very safe for children.
The greatest risk was of one of them falling out of bed or having a bad dream and crying for their mummy... the chances of a man coming along and stealing one of them were extremely low.
To blame the parents is such a horrible and pointless thing to do. Anybody with a child should know that nobody ever really does parenting by the book; we all take some risks, because they never seem particularly risky at the time. Most of us will never experience a child being taken from us, so it's not something you tend to worry about when you're so close to them anyway...
Most parents? I don't think so. I sure as hell know mine wouldn't have done that. Yes, it isn't their fault their child was kidnapped, but by doing something as highly negligent as they did they certainly gave whoever took Madeline a grand window of oppertunity.
But that observation is obviously not the be-all-and-end-all of this and it's certainly not some "ooh cosmic justice for the silly parents to learn their lesson" point, but no one really seems to be mentioning this so I thought I would. :P
If my parents did that, they'd have taken a baby monitor with them. I suppose that would have solved the problem, but its difficult to blame this situation on bad parenting.
I find it very difficult to be optimistic for a situation like this, I cannot recall it ever ending well in the past.
I think we may be cutting the parents too much slack.
The bar where they were was 50 yards from the apartment and surrounded by a wall. To re-enter the apartment block, they had to walk around the perimeter of the outer wall, and enter through the rear entrance.
Madeline's room was on the opposite side of the apartment building, so it wasn't even visible from the bar. Plus it was on the ground floor. And the resort had childcare facilities which the parents declined to take advantage of.
And, not to sound nasty, but we only have the parents word that they checked every half hour.
This is a horrible situation, and we can only hope that this little girl is found safe, but I would ask serious questions of the parents.
And the british media need to step back and let the authorities do their job. Demanding progress reports and non-existent photofits, while undermining the portuguese police's abilities, isn't helping anyone.
Wow!
I didn't know that about the parents!
I have tosay that I've NEVER left the kids anywhere in my life alone! NEVER!
I have had to carry 2 sleeping kids from the car to the 2nd floor, but never ever considered leaving one to the car while I go up and leave the other one!
Go out to eat and leave the kids alone? This is plainly STUPID! MORONIC! Sorry! It just angers me greatly!
I would love this thing to end well, but I will blame bad parenting (or a bad choice maybe, as bad parneting may not be the case really), on this one. Sorry :(
EDIT:
Actually I have left dimitris once while going out on the next floor (he was sleeping on the 1st floor and I was on the second, in our aunt). We had, of course the baby monitors and Evi kept going down every 20 minutes or so... Just to be perfectly fair and clear...
As a parent i simpathise entirely with the parents if my little girl Who is 2 went missing yes i would have gone spare
Now onto the facts
The area was a secure family area and the parents were "on holiday"
This in my esteemed opinion is still no reason for the couple to go to a bar and leave a 3 year old behind. if they had wanted a drink and something to eat why not use room service, there is a phone in most hotel rooms
Yes they were wrong to leave the child. And yes i believe that they were most negligent if not ignorant to thier NEW and Unknown temporary residance.
????!!!!????
there is something fishy about this whole story tho hmmmm
Parents go on holiday with child
Parents leave child alone
Criminal singles out that one room out of the whole hotel
Kid goes
Parents react
No other Hotel patrons are affected (this states that the criminals must have known where they were going and why )
The kid must have been preyed on there is no two ways about it
arrrrggghh the whole Parents leave kid bit is annoying me tooo much i have to leave this before i think too deeply about it
The worst part is that they didn't just leave this one kid, they left her and two 2-year old twins as well. Anything could have happened that would have woke them all up and caused them to start crying and wondering where mummy and daddy are, and checking in every half an hour is not enough when there was readily available creche facilities.
My parents didn't start leaving me and my younger sister alone without some form of supervision in a strange place until we were actually able to understand where my parents were going and how long they would be.
There are two parts to the media reporting of this story that I don't like:
1. The lack of criticism of the parents, as you guys have mentioned. It's pretty irresponsible to leave such a young child alone for that length of time, especially when childcare facilities are available to use.
2. I'm bored of the media going on and on about this story. Three people are murdered and nine die in car crashes every day in the UK. Why not spare some airtime for some of the other victims in society rather than just banging on and on about this one girl who may or may not still be alive?
Quote from: Zooty on Thu 10/05/2007 12:35:21
If my parents did that, they'd have taken a baby monitor with them.
That's good, but soon enough they should let you spend at least some time on your own!
Never!
Quote from: Meowster on Thu 10/05/2007 11:13:32
What angers me too, is that people feel justified in kidnapping and abusing children... and then murdering them. The very least they could do is let the child go. Why does it always end with murder?
I don' t know that child abducters feel any sense of entitlement to commit their crimes. They have a compulsion. The reason the children don't get released afterwards is because the abducters know that their chances of being apprehended are much greater with a living victim than a silent body buried out in the woods somewhere. Murder is a neccessity once the initial abduction and molestation has been committed.
At what age is it appropriate to leave children unattended? There is always a risk that something bad can happen in your absence regardless of the child's age.
I don't recall my parents leaving me on my own until I was... 10 maybe? Certainly until I was old enough to take care of myself if the need arose.
I'm pleasantly surprised that people here are critcising the parents here. I thought I was the only one thinking along those lines.
What disturbs me a little is that the abductor took her in an allegedly half-hour window. Which means he had been watching her for a while. Which means he had probably noticed the parents leaving her alone like they did.
Quote from: Mr Flibble on Sat 12/05/2007 17:16:36
I don't recall my parents leaving me on my own until I was... 10 maybe? Certainly until I was old enough to take care of myself if the need arose.
For most situations, yes, a 10 year should be able to take care of himself for a few hours. But if somebody broke into your home with the intent to you harm, at 10 years old you're not capable of defending yourself.
Yeah but at 10 you're capable of running away, kicking and screaming, calling for help, all those things.
It could indeed have been much later than 10, which was just a ballpark figure. Having said that, I'm 16 now. Would I be able to defend myself if someone broke into my house with the intent to do me harm?
Quote from: Mr Flibble on Sun 13/05/2007 00:59:51
Yeah but at 10 you're capable of running away, kicking and screaming, calling for help, all those things.
You're capable of doing all those things at 3 1/2 as well. My guess would be that the child went under her own momentum though, tricked by the abductor into believing that the parents had sent him or some other such lie. This happens to 10 year olds as well.
Quote from: Mr Flibble on Sun 13/05/2007 00:59:51
I'm 16 now. Would I be able to defend myself if someone broke into my house with the intent to do me harm?
Maybe...maybe not. You probably wouldn't be tricked the way a younger child might be but there's still a good chance you wouldn't be able to defend yourself.
I think when a parent decides a child is old enough to be left alone it's not based on how well they expect the child to adapt to extreme cirumstances but how responsible a child will be under foreseeable circumstances. These parents knew that under normal circumstances their children would sleep soundly through the night and it never occured to them that an outside force may invade their lives. You can't blame the victims for being victimized.
Quote from: Quintaros on Sun 13/05/2007 01:15:06You can't blame the victims for being victimized.
Surely the victim is Madeleine?
I don't think I'd leave my 3 year old daughter unattended in a hotel room whilst I went off to have dinner in a restaurant. If I did so, and she was abducted, I'd blame myself entirely. Then of course you have the fact that the child could wake up and be upset, terrified to be left alone.
I don't personally think a three year old could run very fast, or hide very well... but then neither could a 10 year old, really.
The half hour gap seems conspicuous here. Madeleine was taken at some point in the 30 minute interval between her parents checking on her. That's just too precise for my tastes. It would suggest that whoever took her had watched and planned it quite thoroughly.
Or a good cover for a murder/accidental death.... but that's too outlandish to happen. Surely.
Quote from: Mr Flibble on Sun 13/05/2007 02:17:29
Surely the victim is Madeleine?
The entire family are victims under circumstances like this.
Quote from: Mr Flibble on Sun 13/05/2007 02:17:29
I don't think I'd leave my 3 year old daughter unattended in a hotel room whilst I went off to have dinner in a restaurant. If I did so, and she was abducted, I'd blame myself entirely.
I might hold the abductor a teensie bit responsible.
I'm sure they will blame themselves or each other. If they'd stayed in, the event wouldn't have occurred. If they'd done any number of things differently perhaps it never would have occurred. But that can be said about a lot of bad things that happen in life.
Quote from: Mr Flibble on Sun 13/05/2007 02:17:29
The half hour gap seems conspicuous here. Madeleine was taken at some point in the 30 minute interval between her parents checking on her. That's just too precise for my tastes. It would suggest that whoever took her had watched and planned it quite thoroughly.
I would not be at all surprised if the investigation revealed that the abductor had some sort of connection to the hotel that allowed him to watch for opportunities such as this.
I'm sorry Quintaros but age is definately an important factor! Of course bad things happen to all ages children (and grown ups), and other dangers appear after the age of 13-14. Smoking, drugs, cars, whatever really. Before that, you just don't have these worries.
But honestly. I have a 3 1/2 year old son.
He speaks 2 languages (greek and english, both at a level to communicate). He knows not to speak to strangers (as far as possible right? If anyone offers chocolate, he WILL go, no matter what!). He has a very strong voice to wake up all the flats around us!
Still.
He can't open the lights
He can't make a phone call to the police or actually have a mind to instead of scream (which he also does with us around, it happens with children you know), to yell "Help. They're hurting me!" or even better "FIRE!" to get everyone involved! (That's a clever trick actually. Never scream "rape". Scream "Fire")
He can't really distunguish yet between good and bad.
He can't read the time
You do understand that the above make a huge difference in any situation, right?
In a normal situation, waking up will panic a 3 year old boy, no matter what (or girl, or 4 year old), when the parents are not around. A 10 year old will... something to do, or maybe call the mobile. He will know that his parents are coming at 23:00 and it's still 22:00, so all is well.
In a difficult situation, unless hit hard, the 10 year old WILL see that something is wrong! WILL understand that he needs to call for help, not simply call!
And so on.
A 4 year old and a 10 year old are NOT the same!
And all this in a hotel room at a new country? come on!
I can see/understand the pain these people must be having and so on, and of course going through "had we done this/that this wouldn't have happened" is not aprticularly helpful, but this is you and me talking, not me talking to them.
to them: May they find their little girl and everything turns up in good turns. Let them have the utmost support from everyone around them. :)
I'm more disgusted by all these celebrities jumping on the bandwagon to throw cash for a reward. I can't read it as anything more than a publicity stunt, and if these celebrities are really that philanthropic and caring you'd think they'd be donating the money to charities that help hundreds of families rather than this one.
No one should doubt that these parents suffer. But leaving three children alone is extremely dangerous. Lots and lots of things could happen to children when they are left unattended: they can fall, they can choke on small things or get hurt trying to leave the cradle. The parents showed criminal negligence (and I mean it both literally and as a legal term).
Why didn't they just hire a babysitter?
Hello my name is Pedro im a Spanish coach driver / Babysitter
If your on holiday a babysitter really doesnt spring to mind as being one of those things you can pack ;D but anywho
A babysitter has to be someone you can trust in ... ideally not someone from an ad from the local paper (even if you can read the lingo )
Baby sitter not an option
Remember prevention is better than cure
Click use
Click Phone
Dial 0 for room service crisis averted you can simply drink and eat in your room
OR kids meet mr Pram and they sit next to the bar table asleep (ensure its a quiet bar or they wont sleep ) and most european bars dont mind kids being there
Sin
But surely they would have known other people on the resort; from what I have seen on the television, there were many english couples on the resort. They must have had some contact with these people!
The resort supplied a creche facility which the parents decided not to use.
The media circus is rather sickening. Rewards of 1.5 million pounds, celebrity pleadings; it really is all quite ludicrous. Not to sound callous, but the portuguese police chief had a point when he said "Portuguese children go missing too. What is so special about this one child? We'll treat it as serious as we would any other case." I may be paraphrasing slightly, but that was the gist of it.
Sky News keeping a "Madeleine Watch" ("Day 10: Still no news!) is fairly typical of the degree of sensationalism that pervades the modern media mindset. More maps/photos/diagrams means more opportunities for them to use their expensive video wall.
And you just know they'd give their right bollock to be the first on the scene if/when she is found...dead or alive.
Whether they'd prefer one over the other is still up for debate.
I'm sure the parents already hate themselves enough for leaving the kids alone without anyone else even mentioning it. "You should have done X" is not going to help anyone, now, is it, and I'm sure those twins will never EVER be left alone until they're 33 years old.
Also, I understand the desperate desire of parents for a meal out somewhere without the kids. Especially since they had 3 under-four kids. It must be hard work.
On the other hand, I'd never do that. Part of the reason my wife and I are so desperate for nights out is because its so hard to do.
Quote from: SSH on Mon 14/05/2007 10:12:34
I'm sure the parents already hate themselves enough for leaving the kids alone without anyone else even mentioning it.
It's not only about blaming the parents, it's about steering the debate in the right direction. It's not like people are suggesting that the perpetrator should have his penalty reduced (if he gets caught) just because the parents were neglectful. It should still not be taboo for public media to point out that parents are responsible for their children.
Quote"Portuguese children go missing too. What is so special about this one child? We'll treat it as serious as we would any other case."
Huh, he said that? I've been really out of the loop, especially so considering it's happened in my own country, but I've always held our police and security force in high regard, and I have to say I admire that response. No-nonsense, to the point, 1st priority being the child as opposed to the publicity.
Like I said, I may be paraphrasing but that was the general message.
I think it came about out of frustration with the media's (mostly UK) onslaught of demands for photofits, investigation details, and masked references to the ineptitude of his police force.
It's a salient point though. Out of all the missing children cases both in the UK and abroad, why is everybody from JK Rowling to David Beckham getting involved in this one?
Authorities have admitted today that they have no suspects, but whether or not this is down to a lack of action on their part or simply an overall lack of evidence remains to be seen.
The parents have now brought in their own team of laywers and legal representitives, though what this will accomplish, other than generating jurisdictional red tape, is currently a mystery.
One thing is certain, in my mind at least.
The parents chose to leave their children alone, rather than in the provided childcare facilities. They weren't forced to do it.
It may not qualify as negligent, but it was certainly irresponsible.