I know that mentioning real people, as well as discussing something behind their backs could be impolite, if not rude, but there's something that bothered me.
As many of you may know, there were cases when certain people keep posting their games here, claiming that these are real games, which, in fact, were looking too terrible to believe they are serious. Some thought these people are stupid, others - that they are trolls. I felt quite annoyed too, not that I was angered, I was rather scared (!), because I couldn't stop thinking there's something in modern education that makes people behave so weird.
I remembered my own teenage years, I myself did a lot of silly and stupid things, but there was one difference - I rarely displayed my works in public, and I would be ashamed if I had to show something so unfinished and low quality... wait a second...
And then it hit me.
What if this is not stupidity or exaggerated self-confidence, but rather a natural behavior of a new generation? I mean, they are born in the era of Internet. What if they post such games here not because they truly believe they are superb, but because they are just used to show everything they do on Web, even things that older generation would dare to show only to closest friends?
Does this makes any sense?
It makes sense, Though I don't know to many people who are from that generation that act like that.
Honestly they were prolly either trolling or had no experience ever doing something like this and felt proud of what they made, They also could be young.
That is genuinely one of the most terrifying thoughts I've read for a long time, mainly because it's impossible to think there isn't quite a bit of truth in it.
However thinking back to my own youth and attitudes then, while I'd be inclined to agree with you about not being particularly willing to show it so publicly, I think you also need to consider that we really didn't have as much opportunity. Anyone with an internet connection can throw their creations at the world these days, back when I (we?) were kids it was such a new thing and far fewer people had easy access to it. I also shudder to remember my own first offerings with AGS way back when we were using EZ Boards - I was proud of it even though it was admittedly terrible, not so much because of what I thought it was but what I thought it could be (this is before I concluded that I would never be a decent coder!). The weird thing was that I remember a couple of people emailing me to tell me they really enjoyed it! (That probably stopped me from realising for a while how abjectly terrible it was.)
Perhaps also a factor is the fact that "reality" and "talent" shows have distorted people's perception of what is actually reality and talent?
So, does that rather means that this is me who is getting too old? :D
There is truth in what you say, Crimson Wizard, something went terribly wrong with people. For example company I work for outsources temp workers, mostly students or guys right after high school. Each year we get more otherwolrdy people â€" careless, self-centered and often plain stupid.
Something is wrong with their attention span â€" they can’t focus. They can’t process information. They’re kind of physically unable to concentrate.
Don’t know if that’s education. Maybe it’s the way culture and information are presented today?
Anyways, all we can do is guide them if that’s possible and if they ask for it.
PS. And yes, I remember sending my half-assed book for a writing competition while beein’ teenager (even got a dimpoma for it). But I was, well, drunk when I did it.
EDIT. Fortunately this is not true for whole generation and there still are some likable \ thinking people; it's just easier to be... intellectually challenged and be well with it.
I guess it's similar to people who are convinced that they are great singers, until they are shot down on some casting show. And many of them aren't even humble afterwards, or understandable, they merely think that the judges are asses or something.
It's a self-preservation mechanism that makes us think better of ourselves than we actually are. I once heard that the reason for depression is often an imbalance of hormones that disables that mechanism, so we can no longer deceive ourselves. Not sure how accurate that is though.
In my experience, there are simply lots of people who are completely unable to leave their own point of view. They will yell at you although they are clearly in the wrong, they don't apologize for anything, ever, and they are oblivious to the fact that colleagues or fellow students can't stand them.
They consider themselves experts about anything, and they are entirely unable to realistically estimate their own competence in a field.
Unfortunately, due to the fact that there are so many of those people, they'll always find friends among themselves and thus most of them never realize how much of an idiot they actually are.
Just visit http://notalwaysright.com/ or http://clientsfromhell.net/ to get the full package of oblivious, narcissistic idiots.
I don't think that this has gotten worse in recent years, it has probably always been that way. It's just that due to the internet, we have to endure a lot more of it.
Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Wed 27/06/2012 08:34:12
What if this is not stupidity or exaggerated self-confidence, but rather a natural behavior of a new generation? I mean, they are born in the era of Internet. What if they post such games here not because they truly believe they are superb, but because they are just used to show everything they do on Web, even things that older generation would dare to show only to closest friends?
Makes sense indeed. These days you can publish pretty much anything online without any quality control, and that means that Sturgeon's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon's_Law) is in full effect. But then again, I can still remember how exited I was when I first started AGS and made this small one-room game where you could use a key on a door to unlock it. It was hilarious and I was very proud of my work.
But I think the forums as a whole have shifted a bit, too. The overall quality of "our" games has improved quite a bit even in the century I spend here*. AGS is a freeware toolkit with a relatively low learning curve, a free-for-all game framework. It has spawned several full-length games and even a couple of critically acclaimed commercial ones.
These games are a very small percentage, yet they bring newcomers. And to a newcomer even a small walkcycle is awesome and great. And what do you do with something great? You show it. Not their fault that the forums as a whole have seen thousands of walkcycles already and fail to see how awesome they are.
___
* It sounds so much better with "century" in it!
I think you should play certain games never mentioned in by name in this topic and then comment again : )
Sorry, but those 2-frames walkcycles can't be called awesome no matter how hard you try :)
Quote from: an Urpney on Wed 27/06/2012 12:50:28
I think you should play certain games never mentioned in by name in this topic and then comment again : )
I actually played them, but I thought this wasn't a thread about specific games, but the natural behaviour of a new generation.
[edit]
But yes, I should've added a few smiley or so to the last bit of my post: Take it with a grain of salt ;)
My first game was like point and click butthole the game, but I still released it. I thought it was pretty good at the time.
I'm probably one of that generation too. Look at my drawings! Look at them now! You must view my things and give me feedback right now!
I think Ben, Ghost and Khris make some valid points which I very much concur with.
We should very much take heed of slightly self-righteous observations about "the new generation"
(...remember, some of our parents used to do the exact same thing!!!) :)
And Khris point, that the dynamics of the 'new' medium might influence
a) how much projects of an seemingly "imperfect" or inferior nature are exposed to a wider public
b) our perception of those
..is very well justified, I think.
All that aside, don't you secretly admire the SHEER amount of energy behind all that 'illusion of grandeur'?
I do! Up to a point of almost jealousy, because I seem to have lost this seemingly unconditional 'spark'
of wanting to create something, head first!
My actual point is this:
"For now: The process is more important than achievement. The questions are more valuable than the answers. The attempts are more admirable than successes." From the notes of Richard Linklater
Quote from: Khris on Wed 27/06/2012 12:41:35
In my experience, there are simply lots of people who are completely unable to leave their own point of view.
Could that be us (?), while bashing and making fun of someone who's young and simply on a ROLL (!) No matter how much seemingly against the grain in our 'mature and knowledgeable' eyes? :tongue:
Also, if Ghost and Bicilotti hadn't put up with me constantly sending builds which were like "HEY LOOK GUYS YOU CAN WALK NOW" "OH LOOK THIS VERSION YOU CAN LOOK AT STUFF" of my early games like Annie Android and Shifter's Box and been polite enough and patient enough to respond with encouragement, I'd probably have never finished them.
I think a lot of us need some sort of encouragement like this to help us pull through the process of making a game, and I think if I didn't have very kind friends willing to put up with my crud then I'd be posting it publicly and you'd all think I was an annoying troll. Thankfully, I *do* have very kind friends, so they're the only ones who think this. :cheesy:
Oh, wait until I post my first "works in progress"!
You guys might already want to apply for a new domain and not tell me! :grin:
I think there is a difference between what Ben is explaining regarding his early projects and their submission for critique and/or pats on the back on the forum, and a full on attention whore who craps out buggy alpha version training games and continually pesters everyone about them. I try to ignore the latter, though luckily there really is only a few of those folks on this board and on the bright side sometimes the output (screenshots, characters, etc..) from the games can be entertaining.
We always do that "kids these days" thing. I don't think its generational.
[Deleted]
Mod Note: Don't make this about particular posters.
People, you are making a good discussion here :), but I have to point out you are missing my original point.
I'll try to elaborate.
You see, some of you mentioned that it is usual to be overexcited about first creations, it is natural for young to do silly things, and the only difference is technical opportunity to spread one's creations that older generation did not have.
My point was, that this technical opportunity changed the way people think.
Specifically, every man has something we may call "internal circle" - a range of people he feels comfortable with: friends, parents (not always :)).
When the person accomplishes certain job for the first time he definitely becomes excited, we all know this. When I made my first "game" with AGS I felt very excited too, although I was, I think, 25 or 26 years old already and had some experience in game making (including 3d games). What have made me NOT post my game here? I did had excitement - right, but it was that none of people here were my friends, and I did not feel like I can show them something that was definitely low quality without looking like an idiot.
Now, those, from new generation, they are born in the age when you can, for example, see where another forum member lives on Google maps or Panoramio, chat with guys who are much older than you or live on opposite side of planet. This make their "internal circle" widen to practically unlimited degree, since they do not have similar psychological constraints as we did in the past.
I mean, it might be younger people definitely understand that their first works are objectively of lower quality than something that is produced by experienced devs and big companies - after all they CAN see the difference themselves, don't they?
But since they do not limit their "intimate" area to their close friends who live in the neighborhood, they do not feel bad about making all the world know what they just accomplished.
Yes, but my point was this: I had every opportunity to post my crud on the forums at large, but didn't need to because I had polite people who were nice that I could post it to, and thus didn't need to.
Therefore I think it's more than just "what technology we have". Before I had the internet, I would burn alpha versions of my stuff to cd and mail it to my friend, who would play it, ring me up and tell me what he thought - which is basically the exact same thing just much slower! Point is: I had people willing to put up with me, so I didn't need to annoy *everyone*, just a select few.
Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Wed 27/06/2012 15:38:53
Specifically, every man has something we may call "internal circle" - a range of people he feels comfortable with: friends, parents (not always :)).
When the person accomplishes certain job for the first time he definitely becomes excited, we all know this. When I made my first "game" with AGS I felt very excited too, although I was, I think, 25 or 26 years old already and had some experience in game making (including 3d games). What have made me NOT post my game here? I did had excitement - right, but it was that none of people here were my friends, and I did not feel like I can show them something that was definitely low quality without looking like an idiot.
That's interesting. I think for some people it can work the other way round. If you do produce something truly terrible and show it to your "real" friends then you possibly stand to lose face with them and maybe face some ridicule. If you share it with a load of "randomz" on teh interwebs then who cares? No one really knows you, and if it gets panned you can simply never visit the site again and ignore the embarassment! (I suppose the waters are muddied if you are well known and friendly with others on the forums).
Taking myself as an example, the only game I ever released was, perhaps not appalling, but certainly not that good. I was also in my late 20's at the time. I have been happy to have it released on the internet and downloaded by whoever comes across it, but have mentioned it to very few people in real life. I'm not really ashamed of it or anything but not that many of my real life friends play adventure games or have an interest in "retro style" games. Here is a place however where the one thing we all share (more or less) is a love of adventure games (whether creating or playing) and so hopefullty at least some people were able to enjoy my game at some level. Therefore somehow it is easier to release here and all those who thought it was rubbish have had the kindness simply not to mention it (for the most part!) or just gave up after 2 mins and forgot about it for ever.
If I show it to my "inner circle" they have to comment really, and as they know me it's more of a big thing. I think being told by them it was rubbish would be somehow worse than internet randoms.
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Yes, but my point was this: I had every opportunity to post my crud on the forums at large, but didn't need to because I had polite people who were nice that I could post it to, and thus didn't need to.
Ah yes, I remember the energetic and impressionable Benji Chandler..Oh WAIT, you didn't even give me credit for encouraging you during Ben304: The Early Years! Isn't that always the way? :=
I definitely think that the internet has allowed new breeds of individuals (like the troll) to find a haven otherwise denied to them in the era of newspapers and individual interaction, and that of course includes Soapbox Riders and Snake Oil Salesmen. With domains and personal webspaces anyone can, with some effort sit there and proselytise until they have a small army of minions who think every little turd they drop is made of gold and smells like a winner. And these people aren't extremely
discerning types and will, for example, look at something horrible you made and praise it like you just squeezed out a Grade A Thought-Diamond. Well, this has a side-effect for some people of giving them a bit of undeserved ego and after awhile even they can't tell they're producing manure. Just look at all the youtube so-called celebrities who are amazingly untalented or annoying (you know what I'm talking about).
It's almost like we've entered an age where mediocre to bad content isn't disputed, it's celebrated as the new standard, but I'll save that rant for another day.
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Just look at all the youtube so-called celebrities who are amazingly untalented or annoying (you know what I'm talking about).
This.
That is all.
I've been dealing with this issue myself lately. I'm taking a break from sharing work on the forum, because, as I wrote to ProgZMax when I asked him to temporarily lock up my art thread, I realized I was posting in order to post, setting arbitrary deadlines for myself, and working hard on things that looked good to share, but weren't necessarily needed for the game I was working on. Feedback, whether positive or negative, can be stimulating, even addictive. For someone like me, who works out of the home and is a stay-at-home dad to a 10-month-old, it's fairly easy for that feedback to start fulfilling some of your delinquent social needs as well.
I also don't think it's safe to say that every man has an inner circle with which he can share everything either. My poor wife has to bear the brunt of it, as I share everything with her, and she kindly at least feigns interest in my hobbies (in return, I could probably earn myself a Master's in Special Education, her field, with little effort, just based on what I know from talking to her). But my friends who are interested in gaming play Call of Duty, my parents and sister think everything I've done up to and including my dissertation is "cute," and my acquaintances who are artists are all so talented and accomplished that I'm too anxious to share anything with them.
I think many people (like me) post here because it seems like, of all the places, this is where you should post adventure game-related things, and that the sharing of these things might engender goodwill with others who share interests in such games.
I also agree with Ben when he says that constant feedback drives the production of games, especially when they're otherwise created in solitude. I'm a typical Gemini, and my attention wanders easily. While posting in that art thread, I created a false sense of accountability for myself. Feedback from others allowed me to semi-consciously believe that people were waiting for updates from me, and so I should keep working, and specifically on that project (since starting my hiatus, I've indeed switched the game on which I'm working, though that was more a result of coming to terms with my art style [I may switch again after seeing Duje's lovely new game (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=45156.0) that looks to cover similar ground]).
As to the generational aspect, I'd ask a few questions for context. The first is a question of technology. When I was 14, and I was an adventure game junkie, I would have loved a program like AGS and a site like this. I didn't have that opportunity. I'm not sure there is a widespread older population that had the capacity to create and share at this level, but were only prevented by modesty. New media removes all sorts of creative and distributive barriers that I didn't even recognize existed when I was younger.
Why not share everything, just in case? As Paul Newman said in Harper, "Only cream and bastards rise." These half-made games often get much, much more attention than something like what is probably my favorite AGS game so far this year (though I admittedly haven't yet played Resonance) Kitten Catastrophy (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=46075.msg618493#msg618493).
The second question is one of maturity. As I've posted in another thread, semi-defending one of the users I'm assuming is tacitly being referenced here, when I was 16, I was in a horrible garage band that played pop punk cover songs, and I thought we sounded amazing. I also used to enjoy Kevin Smith movies, have massive sideburns, use a wallet chain, and all sorts of other things of which I'm now a little ashamed. Time and experience have opened and developed my tastes. I will probably feel the same way about 30-year-old me when I'm 60 as 30-year-old me feels about teenage me now. I'm daily relieved that I was never a teenager with access to YouTube.
The third question is one of motive. In my main line of work, academia, there are some folks who sit on an article or book and polish, polish, polish, until they find they missed out on getting tenure because they haven't been published. Whereas those who put out less polished material, even if they're criticized, still usually get tenure because they've at least done something. The first person's book might be better, but no one ever sees it. In looking at these games that are "looking too terrible to believe they are serious," I'd ask whether they intended these games to be played and enjoyed, or are rather just releasing them to show that they did something, as opposed to toiling in solitude, keeping your work in solitude, and playing it in solitude.
The basic threshold for participation here at AGS Headquarters is taking part in some aspect of the creative process, whether that's through sprite making (like I did), competitions, MAGS, full-on game releases, joining production teams, or critiquing others' work. Perhaps these malformed, stillborn games are seen as a way to gain a foothold in the social sphere of the forum, and not for providing actual entertainment?
This isn't necessarily a defense of those games, but rather an attempt at explaining their existence....
TL;DR: Too long, didn't summarize.
Some good points here, Eric, but why certain members don't just post some art for their games or a small portions of it in The Critics' Lounge? You did that and it was nice to see your work improve with every update from you. Some young and inexperienced game-maker-wannabe could really use some critique to improve their work. Posting half-made, unplayable product will give them nothing but bashing.