Phosphorus bombs in Gaza

Meowster · Fri 16/01/2009 20:36:52

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/16/phosphorus-bombs-video-israel-gaza

Okay seriously, what the fuck is going on here?

MillsJROSS · Fri 16/01/2009 21:40:27

A bomb is a bomb is a bomb...to argue that this bomb crosses a line, is a fairly moot point. As far as civilian casualties...while it is indeed sad, the heart of the problem is the fact that the other guys like to hide their weapons in hospitals and schools. I'm not condoning the use of white phosphorous, but I don't condone throwing insults at one another either. What this article might be leaving out, is that Israel has been warning civilians before they bomb a building. This could be a case where they didn't, I don't know. Frankly, the other team tends to like getting in the way of bombs to collect their virgins, and ensuring that Israel constantly has bad PR.

-MillsJROSS

SSH · Fri 16/01/2009 21:43:53

Quote from: MillsJROSS on Fri 16/01/2009 21:40:27
Frankly, the other team tends to like getting in the way of bombs to collect their virgins, and ensuring that Israel constantly has bad PR.

Yes, of course this is nothing to do with Israel's own actions. They'd have deliberately missed their targets if only those darn Palestinians didn't keep throwing themselves in front of the missles and bullets at the last millisecond.

LimpingFish · Fri 16/01/2009 22:01:25

I think Israel is consciously seeing how far it can cross the line, without causing an international incident. First the airstrikes, then the ground offensive, then the accidental bombing of civilian targets, then the UN, and now this.

Of course, if Hamas wasn't firing rockets into Israel in the first place...

Regardless, I think the Israeli government/military isn't totally adverse to the "accidental" destruction of Palestine, piece by piece.

And I think it's a shitty situation either way.

Meowster · Fri 16/01/2009 22:21:55

Can someone explain to me why this is happening? Obviously I know the basics but I feel like I must be missing out on some vital piece of information, because I don't understand what Israel are doing right now, with phosphorus bombs and what, 1000 civilian deaths or something? What's the point in this exactly?

Don't get me wrong, I understand that there are huge evils on the other side too... neither side is perfect in this... it just seems that what Israel is doing right now is a little uh... extreme and I'm not sure why they're doing it. So maybe I have missed a piece of information somewhere whilst I've had my head down in all this jobseeking business.

White phosphorus bombs are fucking cruel and I believe banned by the UN. They are surely also an impossible weapon to "control" in the same way as a gun. I mean, you can shoot someone fairly accurately with a gun, but a white phosphorus bomb:

Quote
Severe respiratory problems can result in anyone exposed to the smoke and burning chemical particles that rain down over an area the size of a football pitch.

They can also burn the skin to the bone....

Interested in hearing viewpoints from people of either side...

I understand that they're still firing rockets into Israel? Is this true? WTF is going on?!?

RickJ · Fri 16/01/2009 22:43:42

Quote
Don't get me wrong, I understand that there are huge evils on the other side too... neither side is perfect in this... it just seems that what Israel is doing right now is a little uh... extreme and I'm not sure why they're doing it.

But the terror bombing of Germany in response to their V2 rocket attacks of London and other cities wasn't extreme, right?

Quote
I don't understand what Israel are doing right now, with phosphorus bombs and what, 1000 civilian deaths or something? What's the point in this exactly?

According to the article you linked to they are not using the kinds of weapons that are banned. The article says that they are using a phosphorous rounds as target markers and not as incendiary bombs, which is apparently what is banned by the UN. Hamas purposefully launch attacks from private homes and heavily populated areas so as to maximize civillian casulties when Israel is finally proved to respond.

MillsJROSS · Fri 16/01/2009 22:53:37

QuoteYes, of course this is nothing to do with Israel's own actions. They'd have deliberately missed their targets if only those darn Palestinians didn't keep throwing themselves in front of the missles and bullets at the last millisecond.

I'm sorry, but if I was given a warning that 24 hours from now my building was going to be bombed. I think I'd be somewhat responsible for my death if I decided to stay. I'm not saying Israel is innocent, and that there aren't other options, but there is no amount of diplomacy that is going to fix some of these groups. And if we really want to talk about awful things, how about the atomic bombs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which killed MUCH more than a mere 1,000 civilians.

-MillsJROSS

Stupot · Fri 16/01/2009 23:05:50

Quote from: RickJ on Fri 16/01/2009 22:43:42
According to the article you linked to they are not using the kinds of weapons that are banned. The article says that they are using a phosphorous rounds as target markers and not as incendiary bombs, which is apparently what is banned by the UN.

What makes me laugh is that some guys in suits sit there and decided which bombs are the good bombs and which bombs are the bad bombs.

Quintaros · Fri 16/01/2009 23:12:48

Heck, even Hitler had his boundaries. He didn't allow the use of chemical bombs after having experienced mustard gas as a soldier during WW1.

Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens · Sat 17/01/2009 00:11:47

No, he just ordered millions of jews marched into ovens and exposed to lethal gas and all sorts of chemicals to see how they would react.

Snarky · Sat 17/01/2009 00:21:39

There's always a lot of talk from the "Israel can do no wrong"-crowd about the moral difference between the Israeli military, which insists it is trying to minimize civilian casualties, and Hamas, which launches attacks against civilians and uses women and children as human shields.

That's all well and good, but at some point you have to consider what the parties are actually achieving, not just what they're trying to do.

All the rockets launched from Gaza into Israel in 2008, all those attacks aimed at civilians, caused only 8 deaths (there was a seize fire in effect through much of the year, with a large drop in the number of attacks). In the current war, 13 Israelis, 3 of them civilians, have been killed.

In the same war, an estimated 1132 Palestinians have been killed, so far. More than half (about 700 according to Palestinian human rights groups) were civilians.

These numbers are shocking, but they are not surprising. Hamas knows how rarely their rockets actually manage to kill anyone, and the Israeli army are fully aware of the number of innocents they are going to kill in trying to strike back at the terrorists.

In some moral calculus, killing a hundred of "their" civilians for every victim on your own side is apparently proportional; balanced; just. Or maybe if someone does something bad against you, you have the right to use unrestrained force, do whatever it takes to get back at him, no matter who else gets hurt.

Meowster · Sat 17/01/2009 00:34:38

Quote from: Stupot on Fri 16/01/2009 23:05:50
Quote from: RickJ on Fri 16/01/2009 22:43:42
According to the article you linked to they are not using the kinds of weapons that are banned. The article says that they are using a phosphorous rounds as target markers and not as incendiary bombs, which is apparently what is banned by the UN.

What makes me laugh is that some guys in suits sit there and decided which bombs are the good bombs and which bombs are the bad bombs.

I don't think there are good and bad, but some are definitely worse. Some are just crap war weapons, but some are fucking intentionally the cruellest possible thing you could design.

Quote from: Quintaros

Heck, even Hitler had his boundaries. He didn't allow the use of chemical bombs after having experienced mustard gas as a soldier during WW1.

I've never heard this before, have you got a link where I could read more? Hitler fascinates me. He was such an evil guy (obviously), but then he seemed to have loads of randomly 'soft spots'... like being vegetarian because he loved animals...? He'd kill millions of Jews, but wouldn't use chemical bombs for ethical reasons? Makes me wonder whether, if he hadn't been so hideously misled, he could have had potential to be a great and worthy leader instead of just... Hitler.

Would love to be able to explore his mind, psychonauts style...

Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens · Sat 17/01/2009 00:35:52

I agree with you, Snarky, and I think Israel has enough power that it should be brokering peace rather than elevating hostilities between itself and its neighbors. As a nation they seem all too eager to return hostility rather than seek peaceful resolutions, and as long as even one country has that mindset the middle east will never know peace. I'm not saying Israel is the problem, but their actions are part of the problem.

LimpingFish · Sat 17/01/2009 00:48:14

Therefore, can Israel and Palestine co-exist? Israel seems to hold Palestine as the threat, rather than Hamas. $:-\$

Of course, that brings us dangerously close to accusations of genocide.

MillsJROSS · Sat 17/01/2009 04:57:22

The truth is there is no peace, and there will not be peace. Not when you have groups, like Hamas, whose ultimate goal is to eliminate Israel. Don't pretend Israel has never tried diplomacy. What diplomacy will work against groups like that?

It's not Israel who is constructing weapons manufacturing plants within the heart of civilians. If anyone is to be blamed for this, it's Hamas. It's not like Hamas doesn't know that if they launch a missile from a school, that there won't be repercussions. They want Israel to kill civilians. They want you to feel sorry for those people, and get angry at Israel.

They use the same tricks over and over and over again. Frankly, I'm sick of it. It sucks that civilians have to be put in harms way. But I think Hamas is 100% responsible for all civilian deaths caused by Israel bombing their military installations. I don't think Israel can do no wrong...but I don' think Hamas has done a single bit of good.

-MillsJROSS

Quintaros · Sat 17/01/2009 06:36:28

Quote from: Meowster on Sat 17/01/2009 00:34:38

Quote from: Quintaros

Heck, even Hitler had his boundaries. He didn't allow the use of chemical bombs after having experienced mustard gas as a soldier during WW1.

I've never heard this before, have you got a link where I could read more? Hitler fascinates me. He was such an evil guy (obviously), but then he seemed to have loads of randomly 'soft spots'... like being vegetarian because he loved animals...? He'd kill millions of Jews, but wouldn't use chemical bombs for ethical reasons? Makes me wonder whether, if he hadn't been so hideously misled, he could have had potential to be a great and worthy leader instead of just... Hitler.

Would love to be able to explore his mind, psychonauts style...

I'm glad you understood my intent.

However, now I think the "fact" I presented might be a bit dubious. While it is fact that he was exposed to gas in WW1 and they didn't use any in WW2, there isn't any documented evidence showing that it was his decision. It may have been due to lack of resources to produce the gas at that time.

Nacho · Sat 17/01/2009 07:59:52

There is something we must understand to go on with the discussion:

Israel CAN kill everybody in the Gaza strip. They just WANT to kill a portion (Hamas members).
Hamas (And Hamas is majority supported in the Gaza Strip) WANTS to kill everybody in Israel. They just CAN will a portion.

There are not "Good" or "bads". There is a side which is more effective than the other.

Radiant · Sat 17/01/2009 08:57:10

Quote from: Snarky on Sat 17/01/2009 00:21:39
That's all well and good, but at some point you have to consider what the parties are actually achieving, not just what they're trying to do.

Precisely. We all know where good intentions are used as paving.

Nacho · Sat 17/01/2009 09:39:56

"If somebody was sending rockets into my house, where my two daughters sleep at night, Iâ€™m going to do everything in my power to stop that, and I would expect Israelis to do the same thing"

-Barack Hussein Obama.

Andail · Sat 17/01/2009 12:25:13

But Nacho, if the Israels have killed thousands of civilians in Gaza, and Hamas has killed a handful of civilians in Israel, why are you using that quote to support Israel?

And no, it's not exactly the intentions that count, it's the actions. It would be a pretty darn strange world if you punished people for their thoughts and opinions and not their actions.

If someone throws a rock through your window, you don't bulldoze their house; and furthermore, if they hide in another house, you don't bulldoze that house too.

Truthfully, I'm completely appalled by some arguments used by Israel-supporters. "But we warn them before we bomb!" Wow, thank you, if only CIA had been warned before terrorists flew into the World Trade Center, it would have been all fine and dandy (oh wait, they were warned).

Lastly, Israel's attack is, as usual, counter-productive, since it will only increase the support for Hamas.