Phosphorus bombs in Gaza

[Stupot]

I can't understand why anybody does have to support one side or another (apart from those people who's business it it).  But as a normal citizen of this world, I'm neutral... They're all fucking idiots.  These are petty squabbles blown way out of proportion, over a mere peice of dirt.

[InCreator]

I don't get it.

Why shoot rockets into Israel? Did REALLY any of Hamas/insurgents/whatevertheyrecalled think that it will do any good?
Yeah, someone feels oppressed, invaded, occupied. How could shooting border villages with rockets help? I find Hamas more responsible for civilian deaths than Israel. For stupidity. Although -- all sides in a war suck, and more powerful one should be also more reasonable one.

If I was leader/very influential person of occupied nation/group of civilians on the edge of genocide, responsibility for their lives and safety should be first thing in my mind, whatever else my political views might be. I wouldn't go and poke a sleeping bear with a stick! Exactly same can be used to being Israeli premier: Isn't Israel surrounded with hostile countries? Why provoke rest of the Middle East?

What if during Soviet Regime, some small country decided to stand near border and bombard Russia?
Or Mexico, over some issue, starts shooting US?

They would be minced, burned and buried instantly, whatever rest of the world would say.

Is it a hot sun or something that makes people go crazy over there?

[vict0r]

But Nacho, if the Israels have killed thousands of civilians in Gaza, and Hamas has killed a handful of civilians in Israel, why are you using that quote to support Israel?

Hell, I wouldn't say that I support Israel, I just understand the damn people. If some guy with small growth and some malicious deformations decided to flick you in the balls with a fly-swatter, over and over again, would you let him? Although I never really fight and very rarely use force against anyone, I would probably get quite physical towards the guy if he didn't stop after asking/holding back etc.

I think both sides are dumbasses here, I just have more understanding for the Israeli goverment than the goddamn Hamas fuckers. Civillian losses are always horrible, but as many other people have said, Hamas are to blame for a whole lot of them.

[MillsJROSS]

If someone throws a rock through your window, you don't bulldoze their house; and furthermore, if they hide in another house, you don't bulldoze that house too.

Do you really think this is an accurate analogy of what's going on in Israel. I sure as hell don't.

Truthfully, I'm completely appalled by some arguments used by Israel-supporters. "But we warn them before we bomb!" Wow, thank you, if only CIA had been warned before terrorists flew into the World Trade Center, it would have been all fine and dandy (oh wait, they were warned).

Truthfully, it offends me that you're appalled by this. Calling ahead and letting the civilians know, is definitely an indication that Israel wants to reduce the amount of civilians that are killed/injured. Many of these civilians choose to stay for martyrdom.

The CIA might have had information regarding 911, but it's not like the terrorist called them up, and told um. "Hey, we're going to destroy the your world trade center. You might want to let your employees take vacation time, or whatever..." No, because the terrorists didn't and don't value life the same way. They wanted as many innocent people killed, because to them, there are no civilians. Everyone of us is evil and needs to be destroyed.

When Hamas, or like minded terrorist organizations, kill, they don't give one iota that that person wasn't involved in the Israel government in any way. It's a victory! When Israel kills, they're aiming at military installations, not people. They're not cheering the fact that people died.

Lastly, Israel's attack is, as usual, counter-productive, since it will only increase the support for Hamas.

Except, they've destroyed 30+ military strongholds in Gaza, and have been crippling Hamas. Will groups come back again? Yes. But most of the people who will support Hamas as a result of this, were probably supporting them already.

Now I don't pretend to be unbiased here. I'm Jewish and I went to Sunday school and have been taught Israel's history inside and out. I made my birth-right trip there 8 years ago. However, I do not necessarily think Israel should have been made into a Jewish state. It's not like we can pretend it was peaceful there before it was a state, though. It's been a bed of war and destruction for many years.

It's also not like the state doesn't want peace, though. But how can you maintain peace when groups only goal is your destruction. There is nothing you can give them. There is nothing you can say to them.

In these bombing you can evidently see that Israel values the lives and well being of their citizens. They're not willing to do more tactical missions that perhaps would save lives of the enemy, but extend their military and incur more of a loss from their side. Let's not pretend, though, that they just are bombing things left and right, without caring about civilian casualties. Yes, the casualties are uneven. But since when did having equal casualties make war and violence a just and right thing?

-MillsJROSS

[Snarky]

Israel CAN kill everybody in the Gaza strip. They just WANT to kill a portion (Hamas members).
Hamas (And Hamas is majority supported in the Gaza Strip) WANTS to kill everybody in Israel. They just CAN will a portion.

Actually, Hamas's stated goal is to destroy the state of Israel and drive the Jews away to somewhere else (probably Europe or the US). They don't say they want to kill them all. (I'm sure some Hamas members have said it, but it's not their official policy.)

Hell, I wouldn't say that I support Israel, I just understand the damn people. If some guy with small growth and some malicious deformations decided to flick you in the balls with a fly-swatter, over and over again, would you let him? Although I never really fight and very rarely use force against anyone, I would probably get quite physical towards the guy if he didn't stop after asking/holding back etc.

So if you responded by beating him up so severely that he ended up in the hospital with serious injuries, that would be OK? (Not to forget that he started hassling you because you took his house and locked him in your yard, by the way.)

I don't get it.

Why shoot rockets into Israel? Did REALLY any of Hamas/insurgents/whatevertheyrecalled think that it will do any good?
Yeah, someone feels oppressed, invaded, occupied. How could shooting border villages with rockets help? I find Hamas more responsible for civilian deaths than Israel. For stupidity.

I think both sides are dumbasses here, I just have more understanding for the Israeli goverment than the goddamn Hamas fuckers. Civillian losses are always horrible, but as many other people have said, Hamas are to blame for a whole lot of them.

But I think Hamas is 100% responsible for all civilian deaths caused by Israel bombing their military installations.

I agree that Hamas shares responsibility for the civilian deaths in Gaza. They are clearly using a tactic to make it as difficult as possible for Israel to take out military targets without striking civilians.

You have to remember that Hamas and Gaza are in a desperate situation. Gaza has been almost completely blockaded by Israel (and Egypt), turning it into one big jail camp that often doesn't get water, food, electricity or fuel. Hamas is facing an enemy which is militarily far superior. I'm sure Hamas realizes that their strategy is going to involve massive suffering and deaths by their own civilian population, but they were already facing suffering, and any victory for them will inevitably be through huge sacrifice. (An outside observer would realize that victory through force is impossible, and negotiation the only possible path.)

Yes, we should condemn this. But given the treatment of the Palestinians, I think their rage, their reckless ruthlessness and their almost apocalyptic, masochistic self-destructiveness is understandable.

"If somebody was sending rockets into my house, where my two daughters sleep at night, I’m going to do everything in my power to stop that, and I would expect Israelis to do the same thing"

Israel's attitude is understandable, just like the Palestinians'. That doesn't mean that it's a good idea (will ever lead to peace), or even morally justified. I think both sides regularly do evil--although Israel does it on a bigger scale. Therefore, the one-sided view taken by almost all American politicians, including Obama, is highly hypocritical.

I don't think Israel can do no wrong...but I don' think Hamas has done a single bit of good.

Actually, Hamas has for a long time provided schools, hospitals and other public services to people in the Palestinian territories, even before they took power in Gaza. Their popularity rests to a large extent on the fact that they were more effective than the Fatah-led government in providing such services and necessities.

In terms of the "peace process", they've consistently been an obstacle, definitely. Of all the parties, they are the furthest away from a reasonable compromise. (Though I have to say that when they were elected, Israel and the US should have accepted the will of the Palestinian people, and negotiated with them in good faith, without setting up preconditions like Hamas accepting the state of Israel: that should be one of the outcomes of negotiation, as it was with the PLO, not a prerequisite for talking.)

[Nacho]

But Nacho, if the Israels have killed thousands of civilians in Gaza, and Hamas has killed a handful of civilians in Israel, why are you using that quote to support Israel?

And no, it's not exactly the intentions that count, it's the actions. It would be a pretty darn strange world if you punished people for their thoughts and opinions and not their actions.

If someone throws a rock through your window, you don't bulldoze their house; and furthermore, if they hide in another house, you don't bulldoze that house too.

Truthfully, I'm completely appalled by some arguments used by Israel-supporters. "But we warn them before we bomb!" Wow, thank you, if only CIA had been warned before terrorists flew into the World Trade Center, it would have been all fine and dandy (oh wait, they were warned).

Lastly, Israel's attack is, as usual, counter-productive, since it will only increase the support for Hamas.

I support Israel because I have more empathy with them than with the people in Gaza strip. ETA put a bomb one kilometer away from my home and they have killed two people in less than 20 kms. from my house.

One girl I knew was killed in the terrorists attacks in Madrid. I feel "similar" to the people who is getting attacked with Kassams. I could die by a terrorist attack.

I don' t feel I am in danger of being a collateral victim of a bomb thrown by a country in an attempt to deffend theirselves. I consider very unlikely that, let's say, France, kills me trying to kill a member of a terrorist group who attacks France with rockets. I find very unlikely that in Spain the political side of a terrorist group who deffends slaughtering France wins with 60% of the votes.

I am sorry. I tend to go with the sides I consider similar to mines.

[miguel]

Palestine people live in misery with bad social and health conditions. Only a few can reach knowledge as we understand as normal. The place is filthy and unhealthy. A few meters away you can find a totally different country, a rich and modern country.
How does the world look at this war? Well, except for some good natured people and the Church, nobody really cares. Why? Because it's too far away and those guys look so unfashionable that they're better off dead with bombs and heavy artillery over their houses.
------------------------------------------
Seriously guys, how can Israel continue to massacre innocent people when they have the means to stop it?
This so called terrorists are clearly being supported by some nation(s) and it's critical that we find out who.

[Andail]

I support Israel because I have more empathy with them than with the people in Gaza strip. ETA put a bomb one kilometer away from my home and they have killed two people in less than 20 kms. from my house.

One girl I knew was killed in the terrorists attacks in Madrid. I feel "similar" to the people who is getting attacked with Kassams. I could die by a terrorist attack.

I don' t feel I am in danger of being a collateral victim of a bomb thrown by a country in an attempt to deffend theirselves. I consider very unlikely that, let's say, France, kills me trying to kill a member of a terrorist group who attacks France with rockets. I find very unlikely that in Spain the political side of a terrorist group who deffends slaughtering France wins with 60% of the votes.

I am sorry. I tend to go with the sides I consider similar to mines.

Do you know anything about the situation Palestines in Gaza find themselves in? How the area is effectively isolated by Israel, how they block resources, medicine and trade in general? It's not very far-fetched to say that it's the Palestines in Gaza who defend themselves against Israels.

I think you pretty much sign your own defeat in this debate when you say that you support Israel because you were in the proximity of an ETA-attack. It just shows that you don't think rationally. You hear the word "terrorist" and react impulsively. But two conflicts are never the same. There isn't a homogenous group of bad guys out there, everyone fight for their own reasons.

I'm quite surprised that some people, even though I know they are heavily biased, seem to hold the notion that Israel has thus far slept a peaceful slumber, only to be awakened by sporadic rockets from Gaza. Israel and Hamas/Palestine are both responsible for what's going on right now, the only difference is that Israel does far more damage.

But I think Hamas is 100% responsible for all civilian deaths caused by Israel bombing their military installations.

Come on, man, bias aside, this can't possibly be your opinion?

Edit: Oh and do read Snarky's post carefully, it contains facts and not just emotions.

[InCreator]

Gaza has been almost completely blockaded by Israel (and Egypt), turning it into one big jail camp that often doesn't get water, food, electricity or fuel.

I think that politics professors or whoever from this area of science (don't know how it's called) would say that in order to reduce aggressiveness, Quality of Life should be raised.

Sounds quite logical to me: The better people live, the more they value their life and peace. Maybe turning Gaza into a "jail camp" as you said wasn't that good idea. If civilian people of Gaza sector would live a better life, they wouldn't let insurgents/crazy radicals to ruin it neither, and maybe it would be talks and negotiations about the problem instead of firefights with Israel.

--

If I was leader of the world, I'd probably evacuate civilians from there and nuke the place. Palestinians would have to mince with whatever country they migrate then...
No land to live on, no conflict to drag through decades.

[vict0r]

Hell, I wouldn't say that I support Israel, I just understand the damn people. If some guy with small growth and some malicious deformations decided to flick you in the balls with a fly-swatter, over and over again, would you let him? Although I never really fight and very rarely use force against anyone, I would probably get quite physical towards the guy if he didn't stop after asking/holding back etc.

So if you responded by beating him up so severely that he ended up in the hospital with serious injuries, that would be OK?

After flicking me in the balls for eight years, yeah.

(Not to forget that he started hassling you because you took his house and locked him in your yard, by the way.)

Whether or not I think Israel should be there in the first place isn't really the issue here, but an interesting point. I really don't know enough about what happened back there to say anything about that.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

No, because the terrorists didn't and don't value life the same way. They wanted as many innocent people killed, because to them, there are no civilians. Everyone of us is evil and needs to be destroyed.

You know Mills, I found your arguments for Israel to be quite moderate until I read this, and it says much about your way of thinking.  You don't actually think that terrorists label an entire people as evil, do you?  Couldn't it be that, maybe, possibly, they attack people because those people are interfering with their way of life, as America has done by meddling in Middle Eastern affairs for decades, including (but not limited to) the post-Desert Storm blockade of Iraq that has cost the country thousands (perhap millions) of lives from lack of food and medicine? 

This isn't meant to condone the evil of their actions, but really, do we need to demonize and dehumanize our enemies like Bush has?

[Nacho]

Petter, I simply don' t agree ^_^. Gaza people simply elected a party who wants to destroy Israel. They chose war. They have war. I would be annoyed in a 2 meter high guy starts to beat an innocent 1,60 kid. But I see two big idiots happily running into a war. And now one is beating the other. One should have thought about it before start poking the eye of the other. I simply can' t have empathy for them.

People tell me: "Do you imagine Israel bombing your house?" How could I? The percentage of people voting to a party asking for the destruction of Israel HERE is 0.0%. In Gaza Strip it is 60%. I don' t see HERE 2/3 of the kids going to Hammas summer camps, with a signed paper by their parents accepting that by going to that camp they can be required to be suicide bombers in the future. Some pro-palestine basque friends I have tell me "Do you imagine your contry bombing mine?" How could I? In the Basque country there is a 5.5 % of people voting for a party who deffends violence to get independence. If that percentage changes to 60, and that party changes from "Violence to get the independence" to "Destruction of Spain", I would like my government to do something.

I can put myself in the side of both, Israelis and Palestinians, and I can say "If I was there, and I was Israelian, I would support what my government does". I can't say the same if I was an inhabitant of the Gaza strip.

Have you done the same? I think not. I think you have seen "Occidental, free market economy, belicist country attacks another". They must be evil. End of the discussion. Things are not like that... There are a lot of grays. I see the grays, and the conclussion is that Israel is "slightly" more right than the other side, IMHO.

Anyway, I concur that my opinion can be severilly biased in this topic. Since I was a kid I studied modern history of Middle Orient.

[Babar]

The percentage of people voting to a party asking for the destruction of Israel is 0.0%. In Gaza Strip it is 60%.

I'm really not knowledgeable enough about the situation to make unbiased statements about it, but I just wanted to interject....didn't Hamas only get around 40% of the people voting (not 60)? Also, while they may have called for the destruction of Israel originally when they were formed (once again, I don't know), during the elections, I believe they removed this from their manifesto, and have since softened their stance even further.

[Nacho]

Might be. I remember the cypher of 60%, and I am quite sure about that... It might be refering to approval percentages at a certain point, though, I have nothing to doubt about your word. 

And about the "destruction of Israel" thing... I don' t really mind if in the manifesto the sentence is still there or not. Papers are papers, and must be supported by actions. If there is a situation where you archieved everything you asked for in your manifesto (independence, autonomy, no hebrew settlers, etc...) and you still do something (lauch rockets) it means that, no matter what you have "in papers", you still want to archieve something else. Actions speak louders than written intentions, I think...

Anyway, this is a very sensitive matter, and I' ve expressed myself awfully. I think the "I support Israel" sentence can be observed as I had an orgasm of joy every morning watching the news and seeing palestine kids covered in blood. I do not. I think that every civilian casualty is a tragedy, and that my "I support Israel" must be severelly revisted. I just mean that I have empathy with the citicens of Sderot, etc. because I' ve been a "target" of terrorism as well, whereas I can't see myself in the place of a Palestine since I' ve never been a target of counter terrorism, or did anything to be so.

[Andail]

Fair enough, Nacho.

I think the most important thing is not to simplify things. It's a simplified notion that Israel was just minding their own business when islamic terrorists suddenly started launching rockets at them.
Likewise, it's a simplified concept that there is a homogenous group of bad guys out there who kill good guys, because, well, that's what bad guys do. It's a rigid and undeveloped worldview.

That being said, I agree that Hamas is doing a poor job on bringing the peace progress forward, and I'm convinced that many Palestinians in the area are quite obstinate when it comes to politics.

[Nacho]

Sounds like a thread I can totally agree with. 

[RickJ]

Actually, Hamas's stated goal is to destroy the state of Israel and drive the Jews away to somewhere else (probably Europe or the US). They don't say they want to kill them all. (I'm sure some Hamas members have said it, but it's not their official policy.)

Where did you get the "probably the US or Europe" thing; I think the "somewhere else" the Palestinians have in mind is the sea.

So if you responded by beating him up so severely that he ended up in the hospital with serious injuries, that would be OK? (Not to forget that he started hassling you because you took his house and locked him in your yard, by the way.)

From Wikipedia
With the break-up of the Ottoman Empire at the end of World War I, the League of Nations and the occupying powers were required to redraw the borders of the Middle East. The ensuing decisions, most notably the Sykesâ€"Picot Agreement gave birth to the French Mandate of Syria and British Mandate of Palestine. More than 70% of the British Mandate of Palestine was east of the Jordan river and was known as "Transjordan". Until 1921, the land was supposed to be part of the Jewish National Homeland, the land designated by the League of Nations to be the future Jewish State of Israel. In 1921, the British gave semi-autonomous control of Transjordan to the future King Abdullah I of Jordan, of the Hashemite family, after his failed attempt to take control of Syria when his brother King Faisal I became king of Iraq. This partitian was in breach of the British Empire's undertaking to make Palestine a Jewish state as was required under the terms of the mandate, and as such outraged the Jewish population, but pressure from the Arabs caused the British to acquiesce to the Hashemites' demands.

So now who took whoose home from whom?

You have to remember that Hamas and Gaza are in a desperate situation. Gaza has been almost completely blockaded by Israel (and Egypt),

If this is the issue then why isn't Hamas firing rockets into Egypt as well as Israel?  Could it possibly be that the Egyptians aren't Jewish?

Actually, Hamas has for a long time provided schools, hospitals and other public services to people in the Palestinian territories, even before they took power in Gaza. Their popularity rests to a large extent on the fact that they were more effective than the Fatah-led government in providing such services and necessities.

The charitable portion of Hamas is used to foster dependence and loyalty, it's used to to indoctrinate the young into their philosophy, fund terrorist attacks, and to payoff families of suicide bombers.  

Palestine people live in misery with bad social and health conditions. Only a few can reach knowledge as we understand as normal. The place is filthy and unhealthy. A few meters away you can find a totally different country, a rich and modern country.

They are surrounded on three sides by friendly Arab countries.  Over the years they have received billions and billions of dollars of foreign aid from both the West and other Arab countries.   They have had every opportunity to create a modern and prosperous country just as Israel has done but they have chosen another path.   Instead of building a future for their children they spent all that money on hating Jews.   Now they have only themselves to blame for their current situation.

No, because the terrorists didn't and don't value life the same way. They wanted as many innocent people killed, because to them, there are no civilians. Everyone of us is evil and needs to be destroyed.

You know Mills, I found your arguments for Israel to be quite moderate until I read this, and it says much about your way of thinking.  You don't actually think that terrorists label an entire people as evil, do you?  

From Wikipedia
"A study by the NGO Freedom House found Wahhabi publications in a number of mosques in the United States preaching that Muslims should not only "always oppose" infidels "in every way", but "hate them for their religion ... for Allah's sake","

I don't get it.

Why shoot rockets into Israel? Did REALLY any of Hamas/insurgents/whatevertheyrecalled think that it will do any good?

Well let's see, what will Hamas get out of this?  

- International sympathy and attention
- Huge cash donations from wealthy Arab countries
- A more dependent and therfore compliant population
- More public support for their philosophy (i.e. jews == bad)
- International criticism of Israel

[Andail]

They are surrounded on three sides by friendly Arab countries.  Over the years they have received billions and billions of dollars of foreign aid from both the West and other Arab countries.   They have had every opportunity to create a modern and prosperous country just as Israel has done but they have chosen another path.   Instead of building a future for their children they spent all that money on hating Jews.   Now they have only themselves to blame for their current situation.

Are you unaware of or unable to understand that Israel is making sure Gaza gets neither humanitarian aid nor even electricity?

This is how UN officials describe it:

"A senior United Nations official has issued an unprecedented appeal to British MPs to use their influence to try to alleviate the impact of "indiscriminate" and "illegal" Israeli sanctions in Gaza which display "profound inhumanity" and are "serving the agenda of extremists".

In one of the strongest attacks on recent Israeli strategy issued by a senior international official, John Ging, Gaza's director of operations for the refugee agency UNRWA, said that "crushing sanctions" imposed since the Israeli cabinet declared the Strip a "hostile entity" in September had contributed to "truly appalling living conditions.""

From the Independent.co.uk

[RickJ]

Are you unaware of or unable to understand that Israel is making sure Gaza gets neither humanitarian aid nor even electricity?

Well there is a war on isn't there?  And cutting off the enemy's supplies is a legitimate tactic isn't it?  And as nacho says, Hamas's violent actions towards Israel enjoy popular support by a majority of the people, so what's going on now is an unfortunate consequence of their own deeds.   Apparently the conditions are not bad enough to make them see the error of their ways. 

[edit]
Why are you not also condemning Egypt?  Are we to believe that Israel has the ability to control the Egyptian government?   

They are surrounded on three sides by friendly Arab countries.  Over the years they have received billions and billions of dollars of foreign aid from both the West and other Arab countries.   They have had every opportunity to create a modern and prosperous country just as Israel has done but they have chosen another path.   Instead of building a future for their children they spent all that money on hating Jews.   Now they have only themselves to blame for their current situation.

You quoted this from my earlier post but apparently haven't read it.   Your response doesn't seem to be at all releated??

[Snarky]

So if you responded by beating him up so severely that he ended up in the hospital with serious injuries, that would be OK?

After flicking me in the balls for eight years, yeah.

Again you're talking as if this has been a case of one-sided Palestinian aggression. Throughout that entire time, more Palestinian civilians have been killed by the Israelis than the number of Israelis who have been killed by Palestinian terrorists (this fact is a constant in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict). And that's without taking into account the other violence and oppression, including the blockade, the roadblocks, the demolitions of homes, the raids, the denial of medical care, and so on and so on.

Petter, I simply don' t agree ^_^. Gaza people simply elected a party who wants to destroy Israel. They chose war. They have war. I would be annoyed in a 2 meter high guy starts to beat an innocent 1,60 kid. But I see two big idiots happily running into a war. And now one is beating the other. One should have thought about it before start poking the eye of the other. I simply can' t have empathy for them.
[...]
I can put myself in the side of both, Israelis and Palestinians, and I can say "If I was there, and I was Israelian, I would support what my government does". I can't say the same if I was an inhabitant of the Gaza strip.

Have you done the same? I think not. I think you have seen "Occidental, free market economy, belicist country attacks another". They must be evil. End of the discussion. Things are not like that... There are a lot of grays. I see the grays, and the conclussion is that Israel is "slightly" more right than the other side, IMHO.

First of all, I think it's pretty insulting of you to assume that people who disagree with you aren't informed, haven't thought about, and not personally weighed both sides of the conflict, but are simply applying knee-jerk prejudice. Especially when (in my subjective opinion) those on the other side of the issue have up until this point been far more moderate and ready to see both sides of the issue.

Secondly, it doesn't really sound like you can put yourself in the Palestinians' shoes. How do you think you'd feel if the descendants of the Muslims who were driven out of Iberia in the Reconquista decided to return and set up an Islamic state in Granada? If you tried to fight off the invaders, lost, and they occupied all of Spain? If they drove you out of your homes, leaving you only the worst land, or to refugee camps in Portugal? If they denied most of your people citizenship (and treated even those with it as second-class citizens), but offered a general invitation to all Muslims in the world to come settle? If there was no Spanish government so that you were stateless? If the leaders of your people, naturally hostile to the occupying power, were called terrorists and assassinated? If Islamic extremists deliberately and strategically encroached on more and more of the land left to you through illegal settlements, with the tacit support of their government? If Islamic security forces demolished your homes, made night raids to arrest your friends and family, put them in jail without trial, without communication, without you even knowing what had become of them, and where they were regularly tortured? If roadblocks and security checkpoint made travel and trade almost impossible, and wouldn't even let ambulances through in medical emergencies? If there were no jobs, no functioning economy, nothing to do all day except sit and talk about the reasons for your misery?

Don't you think you'd hate the people who had done this to you? Don't you think you'd want to hurt them? Seeing all the injustice and suffering inflicted on innocents on your side, do you think you'd have much sympathy for the innocents on the others'? (And even if you, personally, wouldn't, don't you think it's understandable that some others would? You would still have to suffer the reprisals for their actions.)

You could tell a story from the Israeli point of view that makes their actions understandable, too. Understanding the psychology of the parties doesn't excuse the morality of their actions. The terrorist attacks are still wrong. But I think an even-handed assessment of the conflict would have to conclude that the Palestinians are terrorized by the Israelis to a much greater extent than the Israelis are terrorized by the Palestinians.

And about the "destruction of Israel" thing... I don' t really mind if in the manifesto the sentence is still there or not. Papers are papers, and must be supported by actions. If there is a situation where you archieved everything you asked for in your manifesto (independence, autonomy, no hebrew settlers, etc...) and you still do something (lauch rockets) it means that, no matter what you have "in papers", you still want to archieve something else. Actions speak louders than written intentions, I think...

Fair enough, but it's not like the Palestinians have achieved anything close to those things. Just to take the last point, settlements continue to grow and multiply, as they have done both during peace process and Intifadah.

Where did you get the "probably the US or Europe" thing; I think the "somewhere else" the Palestinians have in mind is the sea.

Take this op-ed article, for example, which can hardly be called pro-Hamas: "Hamas and Hezbollah also share the view that the solution for Palestine lies in Europe. A spokesman for Hezbollah, Hassan Izzedine, once told me that the Jews who survive the Muslim 'liberation' of Palestine 'can go back to Germany, or wherever they came from.' He went on to argue that the Jews are a 'curse to anyone who lives near them.'"

Hamas "just" want the Jews out of Israel/Palestine, permanently. They don't care what happens to them or where they go.

From Wikipedia
With the break-up of the Ottoman Empire at the end of World War I, the League of Nations and the occupying powers were required to redraw the borders of the Middle East. The ensuing decisions, most notably the Sykesâ€"Picot Agreement gave birth to the French Mandate of Syria and British Mandate of Palestine. More than 70% of the British Mandate of Palestine was east of the Jordan river and was known as "Transjordan". Until 1921, the land was supposed to be part of the Jewish National Homeland, the land designated by the League of Nations to be the future Jewish State of Israel. In 1921, the British gave semi-autonomous control of Transjordan to the future King Abdullah I of Jordan, of the Hashemite family, after his failed attempt to take control of Syria when his brother King Faisal I became king of Iraq. This partitian was in breach of the British Empire's undertaking to make Palestine a Jewish state as was required under the terms of the mandate, and as such outraged the Jewish population, but pressure from the Arabs caused the British to acquiesce to the Hashemites' demands.

So now who took whoose home from whom?

I think the answer is pretty obvious. A promise by the colonial powers to take Palestinian land and give to Zionist settlers that was only partially fulfilled would hardly strengthen you case. However, I believe this is moot, because the text you quoted is misleading. If you see the article on Transjordan, you'll see that the British from the beginning exempted that region from their commitments to a Jewish National Homeland.

You have to remember that Hamas and Gaza are in a desperate situation. Gaza has been almost completely blockaded by Israel (and Egypt),

If this is the issue then why isn't Hamas firing rockets into Egypt as well as Israel?  Could it possibly be that the Egyptians aren't Jewish?

I'm not saying it's the issue, I'm saying it's one of the reasons they are desperate. The Palestinians' primary beef isn't with Egypt, it's with Israel.

The charitable portion of Hamas is used to foster dependence and loyalty, it's used to to indoctrinate the young into their philosophy, fund terrorist attacks, and to payoff families of suicide bombers.

Sure, you could argue that, and I don't dispute that there's calculation behind it. (Though to assume that no Hamas members care one bit about the welfare of the Palestinian people--even if on the leadership level, this concern takes second place to hatred for Israel and personal ambition--and genuinely want to help them out, is to deny humanity to your enemies. Which I'm sure is a very convenient rationalization.) It doesn't change the fact that they do do some good, even if it's just to ingratiate themselves with the people.

They are surrounded on three sides by friendly Arab countries.  Over the years they have received billions and billions of dollars of foreign aid from both the West and other Arab countries.   They have had every opportunity to create a modern and prosperous country just as Israel has done but they have chosen another path.   Instead of building a future for their children they spent all that money on hating Jews.   Now they have only themselves to blame for their current situation.

The accomplishment of the Israelis in building a rich and modern nation, and a partial democracy (for Israeli, and primarily Jewish, citizens), is extraordinary. There's no doubt that they have been more effective and more successful than not just the Palestinians, but pretty much all other countries in the region. (Since you bring up foreign aid, though, it's worth mentioning that Israel gets more aid from the US than any other country--possibly now with the exception of Iraq.)

That said, do you honestly think that the misery and dysfunction of the Palestinian territories has nothing to do with the restrictions on travel, the security fence, the blockade, the demolitions, the targeting by the Israelis of Palestinian political leaders, police and security forces, and all the other things listed above? Foreign aid, even billions of dollars in foreign aid, cannot make you prosperous. Only a functioning economy can do that. And I cannot imagine how you could build a functioning economy under such conditions.

Why are you not also condemning Egypt?  Are we to believe that Israel has the ability to control the Egyptian government?

Sure, I'll condemn Egypt, too. They have their own reasons to oppose Hamas. But the blockade is primarily led by Israel. And of course Israel can, directly and indirectly, pressure Egypt. For one thing, Egypt gets the second most aid US aid of all countries after Israel, and Israel "supporters" (meaning hardliners) wield great influence over US mid-East policy.