I want to have a serious, level-headed discussion about rape jokes, so please keep it civil.
Let me begin by saying two things: first, I think rape is deplorable and hold nothing but contempt for rapists; second, I think rape jokes are freaking hilarious. Not universally of course, but as a form of black comedy, they can bring great humor through well-timed offensiveness. However, I know that it's a popular idea on the Internet that rape jokes are always terrible and that rape is too weighty and sensitive a topic to take so lightly as to joke about it. I definitely respect that opinion, but allow me to illustrate point by point why I don't hold it.
It's all about context: Like I said, I don't think a rape joke is necessarily good or appropriate by the mere merit of being a rape joke. Far from it, in fact. There are certain fora that I personally believe are pretty much universally inappropriate for jokes about rape, particularly those with groups of people you don't know. Twitter I think is one such place since context is often ambiguous, and especially because text isn't great at conveying tone and sarcasm, which I think also eliminates a lot of online text communication. Some areas I do think rape jokes can be appropriate are one-one-one personal interactions if your friends share your interest in offensive humor and comedy, particularly stand-up. The effectiveness, however, is in the hands of the comedian; people like George Carlin and Louis C.K. use rape jokes in such a way to evoke a strong emotional response while at the same time communicating, implicitly or explicitly, that it is just a joke and neither an expression of personal belief nor approval.
Rape jokes are funny because rape is so goddamn awful: They wouldn't be humorous otherwise; as black comedy, their entire point is to offend. I am probably in the 95th percentile in terms of hating rape; I think it's fucking awful. But to say that it is exempt from humor seems to give it more power than it deserves, making it somehow "untouchable". How much worse must rape be than things like racism, murder, the Holocaust, and AIDS to warrant such an exclusion? Maybe it is, I don't know, but the point is that they are all awful and and offensive and that's the point.
There is a very important difference between offending someone and hurting someone: In the words of Penn and Teller (well, just Penn, I guess) nobody has the right not to be offended. By contrast, everyone has the right not to be hurt, or at least I believe so, and rape jokes are actually capable of both. Specifically, they can act as triggers to victims of sexual abuse, prompting panic attacks and extensive emotional trauma in a way that other offensive jokes rarely can. I am of the opinion that in any context where there is a non-negligible chance of someone being hurt by the joke, you shouldn't tell it. "But ddq!" you cry, "what about the stand-up comedy you so adamantly defended?" Well, that's a tricky one, but I sort of think that given the context of stand-up, one should not expect any particular topic to be sacred to the comedian in his or her pursuit of laughs, and that in some cases a comedian's offensive reputation can serve as its own trigger warning. This, I admit is one of my weakest points, and I'd love to hear counter-arguments.
Rape jokes aren't evil, RAPISTS ARE: A common response to this issue is that rape jokes "promote rape culture" or that those who tell them are "rape apologists". Accusations of being "sexist pigs" abound, ignoring actual intent. The one thing that infuriates me the most is those who joke about rape get way more hate than THE ACTUAL FUCKING RAPISTS. Rape is widely under-reported and far too many rapists never see trial for their horrid crimes. Still though, couldn't the prevalence of rape jokes marginalize the horror of rape and increase acceptance of rape in much the same way homophobic humor promoted homophobia? I don't think so, but I could be wrong, so here's my reasoning. Rape is not about wanting to have sex with someone who won't let you. It is an act of power. A rapist seeks to utterly dominate their victim and exert complete control over them through the use of sexual force. The mindset of a rapist is severely disturbed and could arguably be qualified as a mental disease. My point is, no one, no one is going to think "Man, I really want to have sex with that person but they will not let me, but someone made a joke about it so I guess it's just a funny thing that people do! I'll go rape them now!"
On the other hand...: Immediately countering myself, however, I do believe that rape jokes could increase the tolerance of sexism and sexual assault, which is quite different from rape in terms of mindset and action. However, casual sexism is still a major undercurrent in our culture, and it's not something that will go away easily. A product of sociocultural evolution, the perceived divide between the sexes manifests itself not only as sexism, but through many more subtle avenues as well: why there aren't many women in the maths and sciences, why men are promoted to leadership roles, why boys play with Legos and girls play with Barbies. Things biological differences and neurological predispositions do not adequately explain. Both misogyny and extreme feminism miss the point that we're all human beings who deserve respect, but gender is one of many issues that will hopefully be set right in time.
There are dozens of examples of rape joke controversies, especially recently, and I leave it as an exercise for the reader to go look them up. Essentially though, my whole argument boils down to my two commandments of personal morality: Don't be a dick, and be excellent to each other. In the context of comedy, I think that in some situation, rape jokes can abide by these two rules. While they should be handled with tact, I don't believe that there is anything intrinsically wrong with rape jokes.
discuss
Can't say I've ever heard a good rape joke. ???
Sorry not trying to be rude but I only skimmed through it.
I think as long as its used with good intention a joke about anything can be ok.
But eh I think its along the lines of the dead babies jokes which to me arnt really funny.
This reminds me of a picture I saw today...
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/417473_339485329462775_598806433_n.jpg)
I think people will take any available chance to be offended by anything. By allowing them to be offended by it, we are supporting a culture where nothing is acceptable because you might step on someone's toes. Some people may actually confuse the idea of taking offense at something and having a personal sense of morality too. I personally see them as completely separate, and people need to take their diapers off and grow a pair.
Doesn't mean I condone rape, but why the hell should it be taboo for me to make light of it?
I will joke about anything. Racism is hilarious. Sexism is hilarious. Always.
A particular "friend"/acquaintance of mine actually does take an offensive amount of offense at my racial jokes because she's of Puerto Rican descent, and is regularly labeled as a "Mexican" (not sure how common such a label might be in other areas, but of course I'm in south-east Texas; I'm sure if it was Florida she'd be Cuban :P).
My whole life I've dealt with weight issues, and my whole life I've been told to buck up. If it bothers me so much, I was told to own the issue myself, and then they couldn't hurt me with it. People are regularly taken aback when I'm open about "because I'm fat". They lose their power to try and hurt me with it, and I'm willing to accept the fact that I haven't taken the time to do something about it. So it is what it is.
People, seriously, piss me off. All they ever do is whine and complain.
So, ddq walked into a bar, and I raped him. The end, hahaha. :D
I'm with you in that rape jokes can be funny, just like really any topic can be, in the hands up a capable comedian. The only problem I have with rape jokes is that too many comedians are relying on it these days for shock factor; in podcasts moreso than in their standup act. So its now becoming a bit unoriginal.
On the offensiveness...I'm in the camp that only really unfunny jokes have the potential to be offensive. Louis C.K. and Chris Rock are geniuses that can make anything funny, and both have covered every kind of taboo topic on the planet without too much real-deal controversy outside of the easily outraged people that gasp at anything and aren't smart enough to understand context. Whereas you have lesser standups, Tracy Morgan (the lame gay joke), Michael Richards (rant against hecklers), etc...that get in trouble simply because their stuff isn't funny. And if it doesn't get laughs, then people assume it must be mean spirited and then its in the news. I think to be able to pull off rape, race, and other edgier jokes you have to be a talented comedian or else people can take it the wrong way. I myself don't take it the wrong way unless its obvious a standup is breaking DDQ's "Don't be a dick" rule and going after non-hecklers.
Gee, those Mormons sure are stupid! They wear their stupid underwear and believe a bunch of gold tablets that don't exist! Stupid Mormons, ha ha ha!
...y-you are mormon and i'm not just imagining that right?
Haha, yes, you just summed up my entire belief system. :)
P.S. By bringing that up, you've now turned this into a thread about religion. Good job. (roll)
kconan I pretty much 100% agree with you.
Even if it wasn't funny I wouldn't be offended and people just find stuff to complain about.
I can't lie I find alot of the offensive stuff on the internet funny.
Spoiler
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gBpWuU5Xnz0/T0aqCmGJOMI/AAAAAAAAAWg/SYThI9mChoY/s1600/JoesphSmith1.png)
No joke should be off limits. Even the tasteless ones (especially the tasteless ones). It's fine to censor yourself. It's not fine to censor someone else. If we all reserve the right to silence every opinion / topic we don't agree with, well that won't leave a lot to talk about, will it? Jokes are a great way to deal with uncomfortable topics.
Just don't expect me to laugh. ;)
Quote from: Ponch on Wed 11/07/2012 03:31:06
No joke should be off limits. Even the tasteless ones (especially the tasteless ones). It's fine to censor yourself. It's not fine to censor someone else. If we all reserve the right to silence every opinion / topic we don't agree with, well that won't leave a lot to talk about, will it? Jokes are a great way to deal with uncomfortable topics.
Just don't expect me to laugh. ;)
I played some of your barn runner games. I figured that was your view. :D
@Frito Master: Oh, if only that were still the way! Truth be told I've got my eye on one that I wouldn't mind adding to the collection. (laugh)
Edit: Hey, what? You made light of something that is important to me by taking things out of context and playing on stereotypes for a cheap laugh...and I didn't start The Crusades all over again. Oh, crap. (See, I'm actually of the stand that nothing should be off limits for jokes, especially ill-conceived ones)
Its ok.
If it makes you feel any better I'm a greasy wop. :=
The contents aren't really what makes a joke. The humour lies in the timing, the delivery and the crafting of the gag. Get those right, and it will make me laugh, regardless of the theme. A good punchline, or piece of delicious wordplay will have me in tears of laughter. Of course the more taboo ones might have that 'I shouldn't laugh' factor, which generally serves to make it slightly funnier, but it has to still be a good joke. I'm not going to laugh just because of the fact that it's taboo. When a joke is taboo, but poorly crafted, that's when it becomes gratuitous, and the humour level rapidly drops.
So yeah, rape isn't funny, but a rape joke can be funny, by virtue of being a 'joke'.
Same goes for racism, dead babies and your mum... especially your mum.
I've heard numerous dead baby jokes and I don't quite understand why they're popular.
A couple weeks ago I watched an older episode of Tosh.0 and he joked about 9/11 for some random reason. Something about Marky Mark preventing numerous 9/11's or something of the sort. I did not find it funny and couldn't see why he would want to remind people of 9/11 - especially only for a terrible joke.
Just like once when I heard a lady comedian telling an abortion joke. The audience was already not finding her funny and then she tosses that one on the fire.
Every joke has a time and a place. If you don't deliver it well or have the appropriate audience, it will bomb.
I don't like the Tosh.0 guy.
He just apologized recently for pointing out a lady in the audience and saying wouldn't it be funny if 5 guys just raped her.
or something like that... I saw the article after looking at this thread.
Quote from: Ryan Timothy on Wed 11/07/2012 04:41:17
A couple weeks ago I watched an older episode of Tosh.0 and he joked about 9/11 for some random reason. Something about Marky Mark preventing numerous 9/11's or something of the sort. I did not find it funny and couldn't see why he would want to remind people of 9/11 - especially only for a terrible joke.
Ah, but you probably don't know the context. Mark Wahlberg was supposed to be on one of the planes on 9/11, but missed the flight. A while back he said that he often thinks about it, and about how he would have stopped the terrorists if he was on board:
Quote from: Marky MarkIf I was on that plane with my kids, it wouldn’t have went down like it did. There would have been a lot of blood in that first-class cabin and then me saying, ‘OK, we’re going to land somewhere safely, don’t worry.’
This, obviously, got him a lot of criticism and ridicule. Presumably the Tosh.0 ep was from around that time.
I've no idea whether it was a good joke or not, but it wasn't entirely random.
The problem with rape jokes is that they are emblematic of a single incident of torture, Unlike racism or sexism which is more a general thing.
Let's imagine that you tell a rape joke and there is a rape victim listening. You are reminding that person of possibly the worst moment of their lives. Is your joke worth it? It better be a fucking funny joke.
If you take the opinion that "I should be able to say what I want and offend who I want because it's my right to do so" for the purposes of a stupid joke then you are an asshole.
Now, there is an argument to be had about whether or not joking about it reduces it's power but I'm not sure that it's compelling. If you'd been raped and someone told you a silly joke about a clown rapist or something, would it make you think "Oh, how silly i am. The whole thing is just a big joke!"? No, of course it wouldn't. It would just make you shit scared of clowns if you weren't already.
Now compare that will a silly joke about racism. (some) Racist jokes *do* reduce racism's power because they *do* expose the silliness. If I make a joke about how asian people all know kung fu or how black people always steal things then any normal person can objectively seen how stupid and untrue that is, hence the joke. In that case we are laughing at the racists for their stupidity. You can't apply that to rapists because they aren't stupid.
In conclusion, while rape jokes can be funny just by virtue of being a joke, they should be avoided simply because of the dangers associated with them.
Quote from: Snarky on Wed 11/07/2012 07:29:16
Ah, but you probably don't know the context. Mark Wahlberg was supposed to be on one of the planes on 9/11, but missed the flight. A while back he said that he often thinks about it, and about how he would have stopped the terrorists if he was on board
Well that makes much more sense. Maybe if I had known about that I may have thought it was funny.
Odd. I remember hearing Seth Macfarlane got drunk at the airport and also missed his 9/11 flight (apparently the same flight as Marky Mark). It's funny that they both played in the same movie together years afterwards.
Edit Off-topic: Doing quick research on Seth and Marky Mark missing their flight really pulls up some crazy conspiracy sites. Weird people out there.
Weirdly enough, I do not remember ever hearing any rape joke, good or bad, at all.
Personally I do not see any difference between "rape" or any other kind of "evil", black humor joke. They are all the same in terms how they may hurt someone who had negative experience, and how their effect depends on situation and audience.
For example, recently I was a witness of awkward situation when a man made some random joke about a prison without knowing that the other man's friend is currently committed to one.
I too was just about to ask what's a rape joke? A joke that's rape related? A joke's a joke, some are funny, some not. It seems as if there's a lot of internet peer pressure that comes with these and the dead babies: basically you have to find them funny or else you're posh or a whiney kid. The problem is, most of it isn't even good, I mean, funny. If a joke is funny, people will laugh.
For instance, there's a joke about the island shootings in Norway, around half of my friends found it funny, the other half didn't, and they have a right not to :P
Quote from: Tuomas on Wed 11/07/2012 10:18:09
I too was just about to ask what's a rape joke? A joke that's rape related? A joke's a joke, some are funny, some not. It seems as if there's a lot of internet peer pressure that comes with these and the dead babies: basically you have to find them funny or else you're posh or a whiney kid. The problem is, most of it isn't even good, I mean, funny. If a joke is funny, people will laugh.
For instance, there's a joke about the island shootings in Norway, around half of my friends found it funny, the other half didn't, and they have a right not to :P
I remember hearing about the shootings?
I'm curious though, What was the joke and did you find it funny?
It's simply, there's a tradiotional joke structure you need to know first, one that compares a Finn, a Swede and a Norwegian. For instance, a Finn, a Norwegian and a Swede had a competition, who could stay longest in sauna. The Norwegian came out in 10 minutes, the Swede in 15 minutes. When after 2 hours the Finn was still inside, they shouted: "You can come out now, you've already won!" The Finn answered: "I would have already, but my balls are stuck between the planks!".
Yes, I know, not really funny, but the kids like them. The one I'm talking about is something like: A Finn, a Swede and a Norwegian go to an island. The Norwegian shoots everybody.
Yes, I thought it was funny, but was afraid to laugh. The fact that it's politically incorrect makes it funny a bit. It also isn't like the original ones, where the story keeps you waiting for the high point until the end, but it's cut short after one quick sentence, to everyone's surprise. So the joke's pretty much the fact, that there is no joke. Also, you can pretty much imagine, that the Finn usually ends up being the cunning one, that wins.
I don't think rape jokes are evil or it's wrong to tell them, but they do have a tendency to go very wrong in many situations.
Also, someone with a penchant for telling sexist jokes, rape joke, and overly excited about them, will quickly end up seeming creepy to his peers.
Much depends on the behavior of the person telling the joke really.
Quote from: Tuomas on Wed 11/07/2012 15:24:49
A Finn, a Swede and a Norwegian go to an island. The Norwegian shoots everybody.
I'll admit it. I laughed.
More people in this topic need to watch some Louis CK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4hNaFkbZYU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4hNaFkbZYU)
I stopped a girl from getting raped last night.. I stayed in.
Quote from: stu on Wed 11/07/2012 17:41:11
I stopped a girl from getting raped last night.. I stayed in.
Parum-pum.
http://youtu.be/LLWlBgj0uOc
Quote from: ddq on Wed 11/07/2012 02:17:46
Rape is not about wanting to have sex with someone who won't let you. It is an act of power. A rapist seeks to utterly dominate their victim and exert complete control over them through the use of sexual force. The mindset of a rapist is severely disturbed and could arguably be qualified as a mental disease.
This is an often-repeated claim, but I find it extremely dubious. People forcing someone to have sex with them is not, is
never, because they want to have sex?
The sex drive is one of the most fundamental instincts in humans, as in all animals that practice sexual reproduction, and we know people will do all kinds of freaky things to achieve sexual gratification. But when it's with an unwilling partner, it's no longer a factor? It's not a credible theory on its face, and when you start looking at examples, you find things like date rapes and rapes of drugged and unconscious victims, or rapes within relationships. Even if the acts in these cases express dominance, the rapist is also clearly trying to get off. And if you read about rapist murderers or pedophiles, you'll very often find they were masturbating to S&M or kiddie porn beforehand, and that sexual arousal was a strong motive for them.
So you might say that these people are so twisted up that even sex isn't about sex for them. But let's not follow psychoanalysis too far off the bend. As Freud didn't say: sometimes an erect penis is just an erect penis. Besides, sex is always intertwined with social/status concerns and other psychological motives; that's why it's such a powerful ingredient in drama. So even if it's about feeling like a big strong man, that doesn't mean it's not equally about sex.
As for rape as a mental disease, unfortunately it's just too common for us to classify all rapists as mentally disturbed. I mean, unless you want to define all serious criminals that way. And also, the unpleasant truth is that under the "right" circumstances, given the opportunity a lot (I won't say "most", since I don't have any specific statistics) of guys commit rapes. You see this particularly in wars, where rape is quite endemic (e.g. towards the end of WWII, when German women were raped
en masse by Soviet troops). You see it in societies with slavery. In many societies all over the world, bride-stealing (i.e. kidnapping) was a normal way to procure a wife, and if you consider the historical norm of arranged/forced and - in our terms - often underage marriages, you're forced to conclude that a very large proportion of sex throughout history has been non-consensual by modern standards.
We need to realize that human beings, by our nature, are prone to do some horrible things: to bully, commit abuses, enslave, rape, murder... These are not aberrations. Indeed, they have been quite routine throughout history (and given that they also occur frequently in the animal kingdom, presumably they have existed for as long as there have been living creatures they could be said to apply to).
None of this, of course, makes rape any less terrible or more excusable. But if we're to have a "serious, level-headed discussion", I think we need to get beyond platitudes.
A friend of mine said this on twitter earlier today, I thought it was pretty apt:
"Edgy comedy used to be about making the establishment feel uneasy. Now it's about making victims want to die??? Good job at not being funny."
I think people should be allowed to make whatever jokes they want. The public should be allowed to react how they want and respond with criticism or shunning. How about that?
If you offend a victim, and they explain why your words have hurt them, what you do next is what's important. Do you hear their side, apologize and grow as a person? Or do you find it more important to defend yourself and to never have to consider your words? I think the second route is lazier and makes you look like a child. There's nothing I can (or would) do to stop you, but that's how you look.
Trapezoid: Rape jokes have this certain tendency to hurt victims rather than just offend them. There's a difference between insulting someone's sensibilities and making someone feel like you ran up and punched them in the soul. It's basically like hiding firecrackers under the bed of a soldier with PTSD.
Snarky: Even if the motivation is almost entirely sexual, the act still requires the rapist to ignore the victim's resistances and cries for them to stop. I know what you mean, but there's a difference between rape-rape and rapey-rape, even if there aren't different words for it. And now with the use of the phrase "rapey-rape" I guess we can kiss any chance of intelligent and mature debate goodbye.
ddq: You're right, using the term "offended" is really beside the point and is arguing on the terms of the apologists, who try to characterize the victim as merely "taking offense" for attention.
I think that's a silly way of thinking of offense, in any case. Even if you're not personally hurt by something, you can still be validly offended by it. monkey_05_06 on page 1 talked about "supporting a culture where nothing is acceptable because you might step on someone's toes"... which is a load of nonsense. That culture doesn't exist, and doesn't pose any sort of threat. Most people act offended because they ARE offended. I think the types who are most vocally against a "PC" world are just afraid that they'll get called out for having awful opinions.
I still maintain that it does exist. I do have awful opinions, but I'll call myself out on that thank you very much. :P
I'm for a PC world when it helps shut the racists up, and I'm against a PC world if it means we can no longer have frank discussions about race and/or cultures.
When it comes to yucks, I agree that edgy comedy has gone downhill in recent years and really has become lazy. I can count the number of comedians who can pull it off on one hand.
I remember it being funny as a kid to yell out, "RAPE!" or "PENIS!" on the school bus. I'm not too sure I can remember any rape jokes, let alone any that made me laugh.
I prefer jokes on pedophilia.
The only jokes I would think can be thought of as truly inappropriate are those that are purposefully directed at a person.
To use the Norway island shooting as an example, I would think the joke to be inappropriate and perhaps mean-spirited if told in a room with a survivor, or a family member of a survivor of the incident present.
Then again, a place like the internet is too wide to take such things into consideration, especially with anonymity involved, and thus I believe the internet should be open for all content, viewer beware.
Snarky opined that rape is not about power but about sex. This is almost certainly untrue.
The needs of a rapist are not about sex. Indeed, rapists show no more inclination towards sex than other males of a similar age.
The point is that a rapist cannot get their sexual release from consensual sex. It just doesn't do it for them.
Think about it. There are lots of ways to get sex. Most people can walk out the door and get consensual sex before the night is over if they wanted to. Even paying a prostitute is preferable to raping someone and possibly going to prison for it. There *must* be a drive that pushes a guy to rape over other sexual releases.
It's possible that non-premeditated rape might be attributable to a desire to want to have sex. For instance if a girl passes out and the guy carries on anyway but does anyone here really think that that would get them off if it was purely about sex?
Sorry but Snarky's argument does not hold water.
You appear to have overlooked the possibility that rape is an extreme form of paraphilia.
Pigeonholing the motive for rape in such a way is being shortsighted. I've seen nobody link any studies, interviews, or even documented cases, and yet a valid point has been completely dismissed.
I am of the mind that motives vary depending on the individual. Generalizing such a thing - especially based on what appears to be pure speculation - isn't really promoting the level headed discussion that was called for initially. It's just not good science.
Edit: A quick search of Wikipedia brought forth the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frotteurism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frotteurism)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#Causes_and_motivation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#Causes_and_motivation)
Quote from: ThreeOhFour on Wed 18/07/2012 10:16:14
You appear to have overlooked the possibility that rape is an extreme form of paraphilia.
My comments in no way exclude the possibility of it being an extreme manifestation of paraphilia. Indeed a lot of paraphilias arise from the desire to exert power or other, non-sexual, sources.
Quote
Pigeonholing the motive for rape in such a way is being shortsighted.
"a desire for power" is a pretty broad pigeonhole. One might call it a rack of pigeon holes.
Quote
I am of the mind that motives vary depending on the individual. Generalizing such a thing - especially based on what appears to be pure speculation - isn't really promoting the level headed discussion that was called for initially. It's just not good science.
While it's true that motivations vary, that doesnt mean generalising a mental condition to be a defacto bad thing. It allows for further study and a method of categorisation.
Also my arguments were not 'speculation'. Rather they were a priori deductions.
Quote from: Calin Leafshade on Wed 18/07/2012 09:31:02
Snarky opined that rape is not about power but about sex. This is almost certainly untrue.
I see nothing in your post that would support such a categorical statement.
QuoteThe needs of a rapist are not about sex. Indeed, rapists show no more inclination towards sex than other males of a similar age.
The point is that a rapist cannot get their sexual release from consensual sex. It just doesn't do it for them.
First, if this were true, it would tend to support the idea that rapists typically rape in order to achieve sexual release, as I argued is probable. From there you'd have to make an argument that
even if they do it to get off, the fact that "regular sex" doesn't do it for them means it's not "really" about sex. But that's a tricky argument, because lots of people have all kinds of kinks that they can't fully satisfy by plain vanilla intercourse (even just something like roleplay or particular sex acts, for example), and so by the same logic you'd classify a big part of the universe of sexual experience and sexual needs as "not about sex." (Of course, people are complicated, so a whole bunch of issues and psychological drivers are tangled up together, but as I mentioned before, again that's true of sex in every context. A teenager anxious to lose her virginity since all of her friends already have? A guy having a mid-life crisis and taking a mistress? Rebound sex after a breakup? A couple who feel like having a baby?)
Second, via (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_sexual_violence) the Wikipedia link 304 posted, we get the statement "Most rapists do not have a preference for rape over consensual sex" with a whole bunch of citations, and "Marshall et al. (1991) stated that there are no significant differences between the arousal patterns of male rapists and other males." So your claim appears to be factually incorrect.
QuoteThink about it. There are lots of ways to get sex. Most people can walk out the door and get consensual sex before the night is over if they wanted to. Even paying a prostitute is preferable to raping someone and possibly going to prison for it. There *must* be a drive that pushes a guy to rape over other sexual releases.
It's possible that non-premeditated rape might be attributable to a desire to want to have sex. For instance if a girl passes out and the guy carries on anyway but does anyone here really think that that would get them off if it was purely about sex?
Sorry but Snarky's argument does not hold water.
This presumes that people are perfectly rational creatures when it comes to sex, weighing the pros and cons of various options with utilitarian precision. It also assumes that everyone shares your value system (e.g. the idea of universal human rights and dignity) and would concede that what they do (which they themselves in many cases might not consider rape; they might e.g. consider that they were "entitled" to sex in the situation) is worse than the other options, such as the shame (and cost) of soliciting a prostitute. On the contrary, it would seem clear that in some sub-cultures (usually those dominated by young men, like frats, criminal gangs, sports teams, the military, etc.) sexual assault is normalized or even encouraged, and the perpetrators wouldn't have the barriers you assume against using such methods to obtain sex.
Your argument also only really applies to habitual rapists and premeditated rapes, with no evidence that these are the most common. (In fact, the "lurking in the bushes" attack rape is relatively rare compared to other forms. Most rapes are committed in the homes of the perpetrator or the victim, and in most cases the victim knows the rapist.) Alcohol is a factor in the majority of rapes, which suggests to me that they are impulse decisions and the perpetrators are maybe not thinking all that clearly. I find it perfectly plausible that in the moment, rape seems to the rapist like a good way to obtain sex.
You could certainly argue that rapists have lower barriers against using coercion (either violence or threats) to obtain sex, or of obtaining sex regardless of the consent of the partner. That assertion is almost true by definition. But that doesn't make power the
motivation for their crimes.
To me, the claim that rape "is not about sex, but about power" sounds a lot like if someone were to claim "murderers don't kill because there's something in it for them, they kill because they like the feeling of power that killing gives them." Uh, sometimes, sure, but that's probably the exception more than the rule.
QuoteMy comments in no way exclude the possibility of it being an extreme manifestation of paraphilia. Indeed a lot of paraphilias arise from the desire to exert power or other, non-sexual, sources.
Aye, but it also involves sexual gratification in the definitions I know of it.
Quote"a desire for power" is a pretty broad pigeonhole. One might call it a rack of pigeon holes.
I see your point, but saying "People only murder for fun" is a rack of pigeonholes too, because there are a lot of ways to have fun.
QuoteWhile it's true that motivations vary, that doesnt mean generalising a mental condition to be a defacto bad thing.
But you haven't shown any research or *anything* that would support the objective statement you're trying to make. A quick search of the internet (a terrible, biased source for anything,
but so is everything else) seems to show that some people think it is about one, some about the other, some about both. Except the sites that go MYTH: Sandwiches are nice. FACT: Sandwiches are in fact SHIT!
MYTH: You can get away with your claims simply because your avatar is the king of cats.
FACT: Your king cat avatar is not persuasive at all!
/me shakes his fist
Snarky makes some excellent points. I concede.
I was probably being overly general in my statement as well. There's a wide array of motivations behind many varied kinds of rape. Trying to comprehensively categorize all rapists under a single psychological profile is sort of silly. Further, some crimes legally labeled as "rape" lack the dominance or power and are merely the result of lack of consent, for example, being below the age of consent or boning under the influence of alcohol. Instances like these, I feel the word "rape" may be too strong, but it depends on the particular event in question. The point is that rape is often more than just wanting to have sex with someone but they won't let you.
Cool. Thanks guys.
If the question boils down to "do rapists prefer it if the person they have sex with doesn't consent?" Well, yes, that is probably true for some, but I'm still inclined to believe that the majority are just callously indifferent to the other person's feelings in the matter, and if the person did/could consent they'd be OK with that too.
To return to the original subject of the thread: Jokes thrive on taboos, so the sense that something is not quite OK to make light of is part of what makes it funny. We need that frisson to give the jokes an edge. Unless they're completely toothless, there's always the risk someone will be hurt, disgusted or offended. So I don't think we should push to make jokes on sensitive subjects socially accepted in all situations. (There's an episode of the rather brilliant comedy show Girls where the main character makes a rape joke during a job interview. She doesn't get the job.)
At the same time, I think in principle no topic should be off-topic for comedy. But jokes carry values and messages about those topics as well, and those can be abhorrent. Some jokes can make it clear that the person telling them is an asshole who holds disgusting attitudes (though of course in the context of a joke, not everything said should be taken at face value), and they deserve to be called on that just like anyone else.
I know this is a serious thread, but it's a testament to the maturity of the forums that no one has drawn attention to this sentence:
Quote from: kconan on Thu 12/07/2012 08:08:20
I can count the number of comedians who can pull it off on one hand.
Quote from: Ali on Wed 18/07/2012 19:28:12
I know this is a serious thread, but it's a testament to the maturity of the forums that no one has drawn attention to this sentence:
Quote from: kconan on Thu 12/07/2012 08:08:20
I can count the number of comedians who can pull it off on one hand.
Shh! We're trying to be sophisticated! := (masturbation joke! girlish giggle)
Hey guys. This thread isn't even about rape. It's about jokes. I'm no moderator, but I mean...let's keep it on-topic here people. (roll)
Yeah, I am still waiting for more examples of rape jokes. So far I've only seen one posted by stu (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=46389.msg623863#msg623863). :=
Quote from: Snarky on Wed 18/07/2012 18:19:45
If the question boils down to "do rapists prefer it if the person they have sex with doesn't consent?" Well, yes, that is probably true for some, but I'm still inclined to believe that the majority are just callously indifferent to the other person's feelings in the matter, and if the person did/could consent they'd be OK with that too.
Well the reason i didn't pursue the argument is that although the scientific community is general on my side in terms of consensus, it seems that their evidence is fairly thin.
In truth, the evidence is not great on either side but the more recent evidence does seem to favour your position.
Also, I simply dont know enough about psychology to parse the studies in the same way i can with other subjects.
In sum, i think you're probably right but dont know enough about the subject to make a sensible call either way.
Do we have any psychologists in the house?
Quote from: Calin Leafshade on Wed 18/07/2012 20:03:18
Do we have any psychologists in the house?
Any rapists maybe?
Does anybody have Antoine Dodson's phone number? I'm sure he could point out a few.
Quote from: Ali on Wed 18/07/2012 19:28:12
I know this is a serious thread, but it's a testament to the maturity of the forums that no one has drawn attention to this sentence:
Quote from: kconan on Thu 12/07/2012 08:08:20
I can count the number of comedians who can pull it off on one hand.
I was so wrapped up in the topic that it didn't even register. Its true though, most comedians use two hands.
My wife was gang-raped by a troupe of mime artists.
They performed unspeakable acts on her.
For me this joke is exactly the kind of joke I was talking about in my earlier post. It's less about the actual act of rape and more about the wordplay. And I love me some wordplay. The fact that it's about rape just give it that naughty edge that separates those of us with a sense of humour from the PC brigade.
That made me smile but there's no need for it to be rape, and there's no need for it to happen to your wife. "I went to a gangbang with a troupe of mime artists... They performed unspeakable acts on me." works just the same and would make me warm to the teller more because they cast themselves as the one who is humiliated.
It's less edgy, but if you're using rape as a condiment to spice things up I think that's a bit cheap.
That really seems to be the issue oftentimes, Ali, no more apparent than in the Penny Arcade "dickwolves" thing. The joke would have had precisely the same meaning if the wording was "fucked to sleep by the dickwolves". It's still rape, the only difference is the phrasing.
I'm really really tired of comedy that's offensive for offensive's sake, because it's been done to death by now. Back when most societies were so prude and victorian it became a problem in itself, using comedy to provoke had a logical place. But now it's more often a shortcut around writing clever jokes, which is much harder.
What really bugs me is that comedians that use offensive material equate criticism with intolerance. "Can't you take a joke, you puritan, haha, I guess this is too avant-garde for you!" "No, I'm not in the least bit offended or embarrassed, it's just that you suck at being funny."
So these comedians become untouchable, as you will be dismissed as a reactionary if you dare criticize them.
Like when people say they like Family Guy because it's so in your face with crossing all those borders and you go "Oh really, you enjoy that even after the millionth time Peter hits his daughter? It's still edgy? Still breaking the norms?"
Gah. Provoke the narrow-minded and bigoted, don't provoke victims. Like Eddie Izzard, he provokes by just being himself in drag, but his comedy is super intelligent and relevant.
Quote from: Ali on Fri 20/07/2012 00:33:22
That made me smile but there's no need for it to be rape, and there's no need for it to happen to your wife. "I went to a gangbang with a troupe of mime artists... They performed unspeakable acts on me." works just the same and would make me warm to the teller more because they cast themselves as the one who is humiliated.
It's less edgy, but if you're using rape as a condiment to spice things up I think that's a bit cheap.
Yeah, you're right. The use of 'rape' really only serves to make it that much more edgy, and I think I prefer your version, but it is at least a good joke. As the teller, I could ditch the 'rape' and make it about 'me', if I'm looking to be warmed to by the hearer. But it also depends on the tellers opinion of his audience as much as the other way around.
Quote from: Andail on Fri 20/07/2012 12:03:29
I'm really really tired of comedy that's offensive for offensive's sake, because it's been done to death by now.
Like Frankie Boyle. I'm not sure how well-known he is outside of the UK. For a short while he was my favourite comedian. He really pushed the boundaries and got away with some pretty dark stuff (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTF-cyYOfUc). But after a while it became way too predictable, and he has been reduced to a very limited vocabulary of 'Diana', 'World Trade Centre', 'HIV', and of course 'Rape'. To be honest though, it's probably his audience's fault, including mine, because these were the jokes that got the most laughs at first. He clearly found out what got the most laughs and was encouraged. People were just waiting for his next offensive joke, and they started laughing every time he so much as mentioned 'HIV', even if it wasnt that funny, because they merely assumed it must be funny. I follow his Twitter, and he occasionally comes out with some funny stuff, but nine times out of ten I just cringe, because he's clearly just joking about rape (and other offensive staples) for it's own sake and not in the context of a good joke, which is important to me if you call yourself a comedian.
These are just a handful from the past couple of weeks:
Quote from: Frankie BoyleMan, I'd love to see Odd Future, but I'm too scared of flying. Can someone slip me daterape drugs me like on the A Team?
Everyone's going on about 50 Shades of Grey, so I'm just saying that in my book a bunch of people get raped by a lion, and a Monkey Hitler.
My book out in paperback. I retire from showbiz but am lured back when people who stop being famous start getting raped.
According to Wikipedia, Portsmouth does the league tables in one thing. Sadly, it's rape.
Not funny at all...
Eddie Izzard is my all-time favorite stand up comedian and Family Guy is my all-time least favorite TV show. And even devoid of context, those Frankie Boyle jokes seemed utterly unfunny.
Stewart Lee on Frankie Boyle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft2TXXuQrTo)