Hey all,
If you could spare a moment, perhaps you could check out the story of Samantha Orobator: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8031587.stm
She is currently being held in Phonthong prison in Laos, where she has been since last August after being arrested for having heroin in her luggage.
Phonthong prison is reknowned for violence and human rights violations that occur within its walls, and british prisoners have died there before. After a few months of being detained there, Samantha "fell pregnant", despite that it is a women-only prison.
Her trial has been brought forward by a year to start tomorrow, which the legal charity Reprieve believe is an attempt to get her trial over and done with before she can speak to a lawyer and the story gains the wider attention of the press. If convicted, she faces a firing squad.
Whether or not she was intentionally smuggling the drugs, the fact is that she's just 20 years old - three years younger than me, not more than a young girl from a deprived background. Maybe someone put the drugs in her luggage, maybe someone convinced her it was easy and a quick way of earning a bit of cash without letting her know the dangers she was getting herself into. Maybe she knew exactly what she was doing. But nobody deserves what she is going through; she deserves a second chance. We all make mistakes, and when you're a young girl from a deprived background and a not-so-great area of London, those traps can be a lot easier to fall into.
Because this is the AGS forum, I'm sure there'll be some level of discussion and debate and people flaming and arguing. But I'm asking those of you who want to help to, to read on. I contacted Reprieve and asked how we can help to make a difference. If you want to help, please do the following:
1. Join this facebook group and invite everyone on your list to join and take action (this is the kind of thing FB groups were invented for, not "I secretly want to punch slow walking people in the back of the head!): http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=74873457534 . This will help spread awareness. Remember that every little helps right now.
2. Email Samantha's local MP and Gordon Brown, detailing your concerns for Samantha and demanding action to be taken ASAP, before it is too late. Details below:
Harriet Harman: harmanh@parliament.uk / Tel: 0207 219 4218
Gordon Brown: https://email.number10.gov.uk/Contact.aspx
How many lives would have been ruined if she hadn't been caught trying to smuggle heroin, hmm?
Sounds like another case of the western world having a problem with criminals actually being punished for their crimes, and she'd have to be pretty stupid to not know the risks of SMUGGLING an ILLEGAL drug.
Also where does it say she comes from a deprived background (not that that's any kind of justification for what she attempted to do)? Or are you basing that on the fact she's originally from Nigeria?
Serves er' right!
I'll definitely join. No way does someone deserve to get raped or die for drug smuggling.
I doubt a facebook group can do much good, though.
Good show, Eggie! The facebook group will help spread the word so to speak, but the real help will come from people emailing her local MP to pressure people into taking action quickly. Even if only ten people do it, it's better than nothing. So thanks!
Heroin is EVIL. Those who deal and smuggle the stuff aren't exactly saints either. I'm not saying she deserves to be raped or face the firing squad, but on the other hand, she does deserve to be punished to the fullest extent of the law. If Laotian law happens to be harsher than ours then she should have thought about that before trying to smuggle herion.
I'm sure she's just a naive young lady who got herself into a spot of bother and happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time... yeh, and so are all the other prisoners in Phonthong. Why should she get preferential treatment just for being British?
Also there are probably tens of thousands of people in foreign prisons, if not more. Just because this lass is young and pretty, does that make her more qualified for her own Facebook awareness campaign? I'm sure there are some ugly people in worse situations than her that the BBC would never bother to cover... She is to drug smugglers as Maddy McMann is to missing children.
Things like this always make me wonder about the countless people in similarly desperate situations who failed to get the attention of the media, and for whom there will be no reprieve or crowd of people offering support from the sidelines. I'm not saying the people who manage to get attention don't deserve help, but it makes me think about everything that could be done, and which won't be done, because there was no friendly "human face" to make people interested.
Whilst I don't agree with the penalty of death for any reason, I have a hard time believing anyone could be so stupid to do this without knowing. Anyone travelling to other countries should know the appropriate laws and penalties for their destination country.
Drug smuggling is a serious crime. It is why they have posters in the airport. It is why they question you at check-in asking if someone has put anything in your bag or asked you to.
My bags have been searched by customs a few times. I know of others who have been searched. It really is a lucky dip, and I would never chance anything out of the ordinary being in my luggage. This is not out of fear, I would just never be so stupid. I got angry when a fellow adventurer 'smuggled' weed over the ferry to France in my car, just because if he were caught, I was driving the vehicle transporting drugs. Granted it was only a very small amount, but it could still get us into the shit.
What it really boils down to is if you are going to go outside your own country. USE YOUR BRAIN. Read up on the subject. Read a guidebook to the appropriate countries, they all have those kind of warnings.
I seriously doubt there is much the British Government can do. Their laws are in place as a deterrent to stop the flow of drugs to their country, or at least keep them to a minimum. And yes, I'm sure there are many who face a similar fate.
She will probably get life imprisonment. It is all up to the judge. Death is the highest possible penalty the judge can hand out, not the only one.
Yea I have to agree with the whole heroin is evil thing. She knew the risks, hasn't she ever seen Midnight Express? That's put me off even taking a risk of someone spiking my bag with drugs.
I have sympathy for the girl and worry about her getting a fair trial by US/British/European standards. Most places in the world have ass backward legal systems that are setup to preserve the rights of the state rather than the rights of the individual. People who have money or who are politically connected are able to buy themselves out of most things; if you're not one of them your screwed.
The article leaves many things unanswered. For example why would anyone want to go to Laos on holiday? Was the stuff found on her person or in luggage? Was she coming in to the country or going out? Was there any possibility she was setup? How much corruption is there in Laos?
From the article I am suspicious about the amount. If she is accused of making a buy in Laos and caught on her way out then the supplier surely would have known about the difference in penalty between 1KG and 1.6KG and would likely be reluctant to deal in quantities over the 1KG limit.
This may come as a shock to some of you younger folks but there isn't a government on the face of the earth, now or at any time in the past, that isn't rife with graft and corruption. The only difference from one country to another is the degree, some have more than others. Some of you may think that the government is a benevolent caretaker and that it will take care of you and your lifelong needs. Sooner or later you will come to realize that this true only as long as you can vote/support those who control the reigns of power. Case in point is the recent news about Great Brittan with holding treatment from breast cancer patients who have adanced beyond a certain point.
Having said all of that, if the girl is actually guilty of the crime and there is absolutely no doubt, and she is given expert legal representation and other resources necessary to defend herself then I have no problem with the death penalty.
[edit]
Here is the letter I jut sent to Ms Hartman and Mr. Brown
Quote
Ms. Harriet Harman
Dear Ms. Harman,
I am a US citizen and have been a member of the AGS online community for 10 years. We are a group of folks who collaborate to make computer games which we, for the most part, distribute over the internet free of charge. AGS is a wonderful game creating development system created by a young man living in London.
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php
I am writing to you you on behalf of one of your constituents, Samantha Orobator, and her legal problems in Laos. I would like to ask you to intervene on Samatha's behalf. I am concerned that she will not get a fair trial by US/British standards. I am an electrical engineer who has lived and worked in many different countries around the world and also have family living in South America and Taiwan.
I am personally aware of how backward and corrupt legal systems in some parts of the wsorld can be. In most places the legal system is designed to protect the rights of the state and those who control the reigns of power rather than the rights of the individual citizens. People who have money or political influence are able to buy themselves out of most things; others are just denied justice. This happens in every country on the face of the earth (including ours) but some places are much much worse than others.
Herion is truly evil and if Samatha is dealing this stuff then she should be punished, however, I would prefer that she be prosecuted under UK justice system. Perhaps she could be extradited to the UK and prsecuted there?
I am certain that if your country makes the diplomatic effort that Samatha can eventually be brought home to face whatever punishement she deserves if any. I urge you to take any and all necessary action to accomplish this goal.
Best Regards
Here goes the forum troll.
Dualnames, can you ever not post?
I agree with the general sentiment here, which is that she deserves a very severe punishment for what she's done, but not death penalty, which I think nobody deserves.
I think that at 20 you should be responsible for your actions. In most countries the age of discretion is several years below that. It doesn't really help that she's from a "deprived" background; to claim so is almost a bit condescending towards young working class people.
Quote from: Meowster on Sun 03/05/2009 23:46:35
1. Join this facebook group and invite everyone on your list to join and take action (this is the kind of thing FB groups were invented for, not "I secretly want to punch slow walking people in the back of the head!): http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=74873457534 . This will help spread awareness. Remember that every little helps right now.
This will not help.
Quote from: Meowster on Sun 03/05/2009 23:46:35
2. Email Samantha's local MP and Gordon Brown, detailing your concerns for Samantha and demanding action to be taken ASAP, before it is too late.
This will not help. I'm sure they both already know about it what with it being plastered all over the news and all.
As Stupot said above, why should she get special treatment over everybody else held in Phonthong?
Also: local law forbids the execution of pregnant prisoners, so she won't face the firing squad if convicted.
I also don't really understand how a facebook group could help her. Maybe if she was the host of a show that is about to get cancelled. Really I think facebook is only good for getting yourself fired and collecting human stamps.
Quote from: Hudders on Tue 05/05/2009 14:08:36
Quote from: Meowster on Sun 03/05/2009 23:46:35
2. Email Samantha's local MP and Gordon Brown, detailing your concerns for Samantha and demanding action to be taken ASAP, before it is too late.
This will not help. I'm sure they both already know about it what with it being plastered all over the news and all.
That's just not the point. The point is that the more pressure you apply to people considering problems like this the more time and resources they will use to solve them. Theoretically. Either that or they get a nervous breakdown and commit suicide.
Quote from: Pablo on Tue 05/05/2009 14:52:55
That's just not the point. The point is that the more pressure you apply to people considering problems like this the more time and resources they will use to solve them. Theoretically. Either that or they get a nervous breakdown and commit suicide.
It's no wonder politicians never get anything done with people railroading them into expending all their time and resources on fringe causes like this.
Quote
I think that at 20 you should be responsible for your actions.
I think the point is that it is not certain what "her actions" actually are. The concern is that she will not have the means or opportunity to defend herself. From reading the article, I suspect that the Laos officials have already convicted her and the trial is only for show (not for dough).
Sending letters to politicians have more affect than one may think. A massive amount of correspondence can not only persuade a politician to take action but is also valuable amunition that can be used to persuade others.
You're not going to spur them into doing anything they aren't already doing. I'm not sure British politicians hold much sway in Laos anyway. Perhaps you'd be better off writing to Laotian politicians.
They can turn on diplomatic pressure and promise a future favor (i.e. we'll owe you one Laos). They can possibly work a deal where if convicted in Laos she would be extradited to UK to face other hcarges there. Laos is satisfied, UK citizen is repatriated, and justice served. Similar things have been done before in other circumstances.
The foreign office is meeting with a delegation from Laos on Thursday to discuss a possible exchange of prisoners. As I said: they are doing what they can and sending them letters isn't going to cause them to do anything more.
Nobody has been executed in Laos since 1989, or thereabouts. So let's just calm down a little.
My biggest concern would be seeing that Ms. Orobator can now get a fair trial in Laos. This is very different to wishing she could avoid prosecution in Laos, as some people seem to be hinting at.
This "exchange of prisoners" idea seems a little strange, and not the kind of thing you would expect a drug-smuggler* to be entitled to.
*For now, I'm going to assume she is in fact guilty. Plenty of non-nationals pass through these countries without incident, so I find the idea of a conspiracy against this one woman a little far-fetched.
It's about a bit more than hoping she now gets a fair trial in Laos after everything that has currently happened to her. Evidence is strongly pointing towards her having been raped in jail. The jail is known for the violence that happens within its walls, including beatings, water torture and fake executions carried out to terrify the prisoners. Some prisoners have had their genitals burned. Laos has kept her away from lawyers and did not inform the UK that she had been arrested for months - breaking international consular agreements - with the excuse that they did not have access to a fax machine. They brought her trial forward by a year, which although it has since been delayed, was initially brought forward to a time before any representatives or lawyers had been allowed to see her... despite her having been in prison for already around 8 months.
Even if she did get a "fair" trial in Laos now, there are questions to be answered. And quite frankly I don't think simply having a fair trial at this point - after everything - is going to cut it.
I'm not going to respond to any people who have the "she deserves to die" attitude because it would be a waste of time. But, Hudders, you are completely incorrect to say that letters will have no effect. Why would you say this, as though you absolutely know for a fact? Particularly as there is a long history of such things working quite effectively - you just need to spend a little time reading and researching to find that out. In fact, it commonly works. So please feel free to oppose it as an action for whatever reason, but don't talk utter bollocks.
Quote from: Meowster on Wed 06/05/2009 01:16:10
breaking international consular agreements
There is no British consul in Laos. No agreement exists between the countries.
Quote from: Meowster on Wed 06/05/2009 01:16:10
And quite frankly I don't think simply having a fair trial at this point - after everything - is going to cut it.
I don't understand what you advocate for her then? A fair trial is all anyone should be campaigning for: she has been arrested for drug smuggling in Laos and therefore should be tried under that country's laws for drug smuggling. A fair trial would decide whether she is guilty or not. I can't see how you could want anything more than that.
Quote from: Meowster on Wed 06/05/2009 01:16:10
Hudders, you are completely incorrect to say that letters will have no effect. Why would you say this, as though you absolutely know for a fact? Particularly as there is a long history of such things working quite effectively - you just need to spend a little time reading and researching to find that out. In fact, it commonly works. So please feel free to oppose it as an action for whatever reason, but don't talk utter bollocks.
You provide no examples in your rhetoric. To think that a letter writing campaign can do anything except raise publicity, (which, on this issue has already reached saturation point), is arrogant at best. What, spefically, is writing letters to Gordon Brown going to achieve in this instance?
I'm also continually amazed at the calls for politicians to immediately react to whatever cause is in vogue for a given month. Right now it's as if this woman is the only thing worth anyones time caring about. She isn't.
Pssht pshht. I can see this is upsetting you. Go and do some research or something useful with your time, perhaps? I can't be arsed to explain simple things to you, it's not hard to figure it out yourself if you want to, but I can see you're very set on your viewpoint and aren't going to change it no matter what I say. So it might be best for you to focus your attention on something that doesn't wind you up quite so much, and that you know more about.
Didn't want to get into an argument on this thread but when someone starts talking bollocks, it's hard to resist. I'm going to stop now - hudders I doubt you're going to, but please research a little before making such statements on this thread. I'm going to stop posting now as otherwise I'm going to get involved in a retarded youtube-comments-style argument loop with you in which neither of us will win.
I'm with Hudders on this one, letter writing campaigns generally just provide free fire-lighters.
Letter writing campaigns can work when the media is involved but this case isn't high profile enough. Also there's nobody involved who can be pressured into action. We can't really pressure the UK Government because they can't pressure Laos without committing crimes more serious than the ones being disputed here, and I doubt anyone in Laos could care less. The opinions of people themselves do very little. Amnesty International used to operate in my school, asking us to sign letters to send to foreign tyrants telling them we were sad and that they should stop being despots or we'll all be jolly cross.
Meowster you always make threads like this and when someone doesn't agree you act like they are idiots while they are right most of the time :=
First of all I think we should all layoff Meowster! She didn't make this post to persuade anyone to adopt her views; she merely brought this situation to our attention and asked any of us who had an inclination to write a letter to Ms. Hartman and Mr. Brown to do so. I did because I have traveled to many places where justice is rare and have first hand experience of being falsely being accused of a crime.
Secondly to those who claim that letter writing is useless. I received the following reply to the letter I sent to MP Harriet Hartman. It would appear that public concern has motivated the UK government to take some kind of action. How much and how effective remains to be seen.
"Dear Richard,
Thank you for contacting Harriet about the case of Samantha Orobator who is currently being held in Laos. There has been a lot of concern about Samantha and I will ensure that I pass your email to Harriet.
Harriet is totally opposed to the death penalty and has been working with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) and Reprieve, the legal action charity representing Samantha. She made urgent representations to the FCO on Thursday 30th April and has since spoken personally to the Foreign Secretary, David Miliband MP, and the Secretary of State Bill Rammell MP about the case.
Harriet is confident that everything that can be done is being done.
You may wish to visit Reprieve’s website where you will be able to follow the progress of Samantha’s case www.reprieve.org.uk
Best wishes,
Sarah Foster
Office of Harriet Harman QC MP"
I'm not against letter writing, I just think at this stage in the game it's not going to achieve anything more than has already happened. The case is in the news enough to prompt government action anyway; it would be naive to assume politicians don't watch the news. :=
It would help if we knew exactly what outcome people in support of Ms. Orobator want to see.
If she was raped in prison (conflicting reports now show she may have been pregnant when she was arrested, miscarried in prison, and is now pregnant again), then yes, she has been abused and somebody should be held accountable. It's highly unlikely anyone will be, but that doesn't lessen that fact that she has suffered.
She will not be executed... “We are all glad to see that the Laotians have recognized that their own law forbids executing Samantha by firing squad,†said Reprieve Director Clive Stafford Smith, “But this is only a first, belated step forward. It was cruel to allow Samantha to think she might be shot for all these months, and the Laotians knew all along that she needed a lawyer. What they did not know is the international outrage that the case would cause. It seems that by delaying they now hope that the media will lose interest in Samantha’s plight.â€...or rather, she won't be officially executed, since we'll assume the Laotion administration could make her disappear if they so choose, or that surviving Phontong prison life for any extended length of time is unlikely.
Judging from the US State Department report that criminal trials in Laos during 2003..."...were little more than pro forma examinations of the accused, with a verdict having already been reached. The State Department indicated that in some instances police administratively overruled court decisions, at times detaining a defendant exonerated by the court, in violation of the law."...a fair trial may also be unattainable.
So where does that leave us?
Do we want her unconditional freedom? Would we see her somehow face prison time in Britain? Or should she be tried in the International Court of Justice?
Does the horrendous abuse she has suffered absolve her regardless?
I'm of the opinion, however unpopular, that if she committed a crime she should punished. She'd see jail time in any western country for such a crime. She just had the unfortunate luck to do it in Laos. Of course, she also happens to be innocent until proven guilty, and if she can't hold that basic right within the Laotian justice system then, yes, we do need to see some sort of international action.
It just confuses me that it takes a case like this for people to react to human rights abuses that are happening all the time. She's not the first, and she won't be the last.
Where will we be then?
I'm not at all surprised by the Western reaction to this situation. Ages will pass with scores of Laotians being executed under dubious laws for questionable crimes, and then someone from America/UK gets strung up for spray painting a wall or smuggling drugs and they're up in arms over it. Situations like these show that most people exhibit a very narrow area of concern that rarely leaves their own country except for events their countrymen are involved in (war, pows, etc).
The justification often is that it's their country and they make what they choose of it, but that outsiders shouldn't be dragged into a backwards nation's atrocities. On some levels I agree with this sentiment because I believe it is up to the people of Laos to set their country straight (or suffer the consequences), but I don't agree with feeling overwhelming sympathy for a woman who chose to deal drugs in such a nation when thousands of native Laotians have likely suffered a worse fate. It's this urge to 'protect our own' even when they aren't people we know, just fellow countrymen, that makes these issues so prevalent, but at the same time I don't think it will do anything to help the natives in that country who are regularly subjected to the same tyranny Samantha has been.
Andail, care to tell me what's with the hostility? Had a bad week? Got fired?
You know what nevermind this. Flame the forums saying how much you like me, whichever way you want. I won't mind. I'm barely interested in your opinion on me to care enough.
Surprised though, I'm the only person who shitposts. At least the only one you notice.
"Keep, Dualnames covered, we'll handle the rest."
Quote from: Dualnames on Fri 08/05/2009 08:59:41
Andail, care to tell me what's with the hostility? Had a bad week? Got fired?
Hm? I must have missed something
I don' t know why Petter (Andail) did what he did, and I am 100% for free of speech, but I must say that I partially agree in the "spirit" of his rant... There' s no need to post in EVERY post, Dual, at least if your contribution is going to be "Here comes the forum troll". Who is the forum troll? You? Why do you need a post to announce that you are a troll? Why do you feel like a troll, anyway? If you feel like a troll, why do you post? Is RickJ the troll? Why?
I don' t know... Your "Here comes the forum troll" is not only not interesting, helpfull or funny, but it is also a bit unclear...
I have to agree with you Nacho, yep, lately I've been posting like a bloody maniac. And without any reason too. Sorry if I'm acting like an asshole or anything, hope no harm's done.
Back on topic ::)
Well, it's looking more and more likely that she'll be able to serve her sentence in the UK... that's MORE than fair. If this is true then she's a VERY lucky girl... I still have no sympathy, and if she ends up walking free I'LL be writing letters. But I really don't think this news has anything to do with any Facebook groups.
Quote from: Stupot on Sun 10/05/2009 14:10:11
Back on topic ::)
Well, it's looking more and more likely that she'll be able to serve her sentence in the UK... that's MORE than fair. If this is true then she's a VERY lucky girl... I still have no sympathy, and if she ends up walking free I'LL be writing letters. But I really don't think this news has anything to do with any Facebook groups.
Fair I'd say. I didn't post because I agreed with RickJ; so, yay for outcome.
How much is it in the UK for smuggling 500g of drugs?
The maximum penalty for possession with the intent to supply a class A drug, (heroin), is a life sentence and/or an unlimited fine.
If she somehow manages to prove that the drugs were for personal use, the maximum sentence is seven years in jail and/or an unlimited fine.
I wonder what the actual fine would be.
Quote from: Mr Flibble on Tue 12/05/2009 00:48:42
I wonder what the actual fine would be.
Teh infiniteness of moneys!