Sexuality issues

[Tuomas]

No, this is not an ideal age for sexual contact thread, yet, this is a side kick thread of it. I was wondering, the later one got really really off topic, and finally turned into an argument about religion, and religion brings us to discrimination and rules and cultural views etc.

Now it was only a while ago, that the Finnish government decided to deny the right to get treatment for fertilisation from homosexual couples that are male, whereas two women living together are allowed to seek treatment. This, even though they recieved a lot of pressure from several NGO's and political groups such as ours. I still don't find it right to claim that two women or single women were more competent to taking care of and raising a child.

Now I noticed a bit of an opinion back in the thread about how gay people are sick in the face of God, and true enough, and marriage between two people of the same sex is only allowed in 5 countries, Netherlands, Belgium, Canada, South Africa and Spain, and personally I'm very ashamed of Finland's decision to keep to the rule, that only same-sex unions are possible. I find the rules that the church is setting to be very old fashioned and discriminating, and I'm going to make sure of it, that the government will know it, some day. I would personally take every influence the church has for the state away, but that's off topic again.

I see a lot of people looking at homosexuals like they were lesser beings. We have 2 "gay-clubs" in my town, (another plan for Lapaset ) and even though I see a lot of people joking about going there, when ever I ask them to come with me they say "hell no, those creeps are going to hit on me" or something along with the lines. Even though apparently they're full of single straight women. OR that's what my sister told me. And I won't even ask my roommates. One of them just hung a huge nazi flag on the wall.

Now I'm attending a seminar in Berlin on 11th as some of you know, and it's about minorities, and basically I've agreed to hold a speech on them, on behalf of our own organisation. And I'd love to feed interest in people and at the time also gain experience from people's views, so more likely I would like to hear about your opinions and reasons to them, and your own personal experiences on sexuality issues and learn from them, possibly get some viewpoints to include in my speech, which I still haven't written.

And if you're hesitating, say, you're anti-gay or a nazi(like my roommate there), or you're a homosexual, you could pm me and I'd post it anonymously, but every view would be very important for people to understand each other. And I beg that you don't make a fight out of it so people would not restrain from posting. Own opinions and constructive questions are welcome, as are humorous posts, but let's keep it civilised, ok? Thanks

[Steel Drummer]

So you're saying that most people opposing the gay lifestyle are nazis? :

[Tuomas]

No no, of course not, did I say that? I mentioned my roommate who says he's a nazi and hates every foreign being and gays, and in the end I basically referred to him again.

[ManicMatt]

Tuomas said: "say, you're anti-gay or a naazi"

Note the "OR" in there.

Hey Steel, if sexuality is a choice, that means you could choose to be gay! But it's not a choice for you is it? You couldn't choose to do it because you'd feel ill, which is natural for a heterosexual.

[Meowster]

I agree with how you feel about finland... I'm also ashamed that both England and Ireland still won't allow the same rights to gay people as they will to straight people. It's just so backwards and horrible, and you would think that in this day and age, people would have let go of primitive ideas of the past and would realise there's nothing wrong with homosexuality. It doesn't hurt anybody, so what's the problem?

I've heard some people argue against homosexuality, saying that it causes the spread of AIDS. AIDS spreads between male and females, no matter what their sexuality... as far as I know, it spreads slightly more rapidly among the male gay community because anal sex makes it easier for the virus to spread... right? Something like... the skin and yadda yadda inside the anus is more easily torn/damaged by penetration than the inside of a vagina during sex, so the virus is more easily passed on... correct me if I'm wrong, anybody...

It seems really horrible to me that this is a reason for people to discriminate against gay people...

I remember speaking to a girl I worked with once. She was 17 years old, had a 3 year old daughter and was a single mother. I mentioned how saddened I was that gay people weren't allowed to adopt children, and I remember her screwing up her face and saying, "Ugh! Of course they shouldn't! It's so wrong... two men bringing up a child. It shouldn't be allowed. Disgusting. It's just NOT RIGHT."

And there she was, bringing up her 3 year old daughter on her own in a council estate, working part time so she could afford babysitters and booze for when she went out on the weekends (I'm not assuming this by the way... I knew her quite well, it was a known fact).

I find that most people who discriminate against gays are either very old, religious people, or very poorly educated people. Anybody with an ounce of sense realises that sexuality is a complete non-issue.

I live in Brighton, the gay capital of England, and I know so many gay men and women.... they're absolutely no different from hetero men and women. There's no difference. Nothing at all, except what they do in their own time together, the type of people they fancy. I suppose anti-gay people must have some idea that they're terrible, disgusting people... I have no other idea as to why people would discriminate against a group of people who are absolutely no different to heterosexual people such as myself.


EDIT: Oh god Steel Drummer PLEASE go away, I really want an intelligent discussion to go on in here.

[Steel Drummer]

I agree that gays should have the same rights as everyone else, BUT if it's equality they want, then they shouldn't be getting special government benefits in certain countries (I'm not sure about where you guys are from, but I think in North America, they're getting sponsored by Ford and other big car companies). 

[/quote author=ManicMatt]
Hey Steel, if sexuality is a choice, that means you could choose to be gay! But it's not a choice for you is it? You couldn't choose to do it because you'd feel ill, which is natural for a heterosexual.
[/quote]
You make it sound like you would. 

[Nikolas]

The point about raising kids as a male, or as a male couple:

GRRRRRRRRR! I spend around 20 hours in home alone with my two sons. Fuck anyone who says that males can't do the same job as women can (raise a child right, that is). Let me not derail a lot but the fact that the mother will always have the uper hand in any divorce, regarding children, is also discremenating enough for me...   :'( but mainly  !

I, personally, don't mind gay friends I have. I have never been to a gay bar, but I have no idea of any around here, I don't go to bars at all (because of the kids) and... that's it. I don't mind hanging out with gay friends, and if they started making out in front of me, I would go "go get a room", as I would say the same thing to a heterosexual couple as well (and have already!)

But I guess, that it stands true that females tend to be better mothers than males. It just seems to make sense...

The adoption of a child is an enormous issue, incredibly difficult to discuss really. I mean, when you have 2 women, one of them can be THE mother. Thus the bond is there! Since a male couple has around 0% chances of claiming the child of one of the two, adoption is the ONLY choice. And then, the blood bond is lost...

Yufster: At least England has the "partner" term, for anyone who lives with you, including your lover, or my gay boyfriend... Other places don't even have that!

I would see the point of claiming something about AIDS and gay people, in the 80s, but now, this is rubbish! Not to mention that the goverment is wasting tons of money on the THINK! campaing, about heterosexual relationships and afrodisiac diseases... nothing about gay males etc...

[Meowster]

I agree that gays should have the same rights as everyone else, BUT if it's equality they want, then they shouldn't be getting special government benefits in certain countries (I'm not sure about where you guys are from, but I think in North America, they're getting sponsored by Ford and other big car companies). 

You agree they should have the same rights as everyone else? I'm going to be honest... given your past comments, that surprises but pleases me. Do you think they should be given the right to adopt children and marry?

Also, can you elaborate on this whole special government benefits thing? I'm not really sure what you mean by it... I mean, it automatically makes me think of the Gay Parade that Brighton has... which is sponsered by several big companies but is absolutely BRILLIANT... everybody has such an amazing time, gay or not gay... it's just a massive colourful loud party in Brighton that everybody enjoys. So, I wouldn't be against that... but I'm still not sure what you mean exactly. Soo... elaborate?

I'm not sure how individual gay people would get individual sponsership from companies...

[Steel Drummer]

You agree they should have the same rights as everyone else? I'm going to be honest... given your past comments, that surprises but pleases me. Do you think they should be given the right to adopt children and marry?

Also, can you elaborate on this whole special government benefits thing? I'm not really sure what you mean by it... I mean, it automatically makes me think of the Gay Parade that Brighton has... which is sponsered by several big companies but is absolutely BRILLIANT... everybody has such an amazing time, gay or not gay... it's just a massive colourful loud party in Brighton that everybody enjoys. So, I wouldn't be against that... but I'm still not sure what you mean exactly. Soo... elaborate? 

Same rights: Well, they are people. :/
A couple adopting a kid... I dunno. That would be kind of weird if the kid had to bring his parents to school or something:
Teacher: Hello Tommy, who are these people?
Tommy: This is my daddy, and my daddy.
Teacher: That's...emm... nice.

Gay marriage: I don't think so. I'm not against two men doing whatever they want, but getting physical together is a big no-no in my book.

Government benefits: Like I said, I'm not sure about where you're from, but in North America, big companies are giving millions of dollars to homosexual groups. Companies like Ford, Wal-Mart, etc. If they give so much to that minority group, why not give millions to Jews, or blacks, or Muslims? Do you understand what I mean, now Meowster?

By the way, I checked your profile (Meowster) and it says you're a male. Are you gay, because I remember you saying you had a boyfriend...

[Becky]

What consenting adults get up to in the privacy of their own home is no concern of the government or anyone else.  I have no issue with homosexuality at all, nor bisexuality or polygamy (though I myself am heterosexual and monagamous).  As long as they are consentual adult relationships, then people should be able to love and marry (in a legal sense, of course non-government-sponsored religious groups can refuse to marry whoever they want, as much as it annoys me) whoever they see fit.

Governments should encourage adoption and child fostering, and making it easier for both homosexual and heterosexual unions to legally adopt (as well as single parents) is desirable.

Gay marriage: I don't think so. I'm not against two men doing whatever they want, but getting physical together is a big no-no in my book.

Then you are against two men doing whatever they want.

[ManicMatt]

You make it sound like you would. 

Am I supposed to feel insulted? I am not! I couldn't care less if you thought I was gay or not.

Let me put it another way (Why I bother I don't know..), you find women attractive, yes? Can you explain why you find women attractive? Did you choose to like them?

[Steel Drummer]

Then you are against two men doing whatever they want.

I mean outside of sex. 

Am I supposed to feel insulted? I am not! I couldn't care less if you thought I was gay or not.

Let me put it another way (Why I bother I don't know..), you find women attractive, yes? Can you explain why you find women attractive? Did you choose to like them?

It was a joke. Have you ever heard of those? I wasn't trying to stir up an argument, okay?

[Tuomas]

Becky: Exactly!

Oh, and

Government benefits: Like I said, I'm not sure about where you're from, but in North America, big companies are giving millions of dollars to homosexual groups. Companies like Ford, Wal-Mart, etc. If they give so much to that minority group, why not give millions to Jews, or blacks, or Muslims? Do you understand what I mean, now Meowster?

I think what she means is, we'd all like to know, if you happen to, that what are these benefits like. Is it so, that a registered homosexual gets a certain amount of money on their account per month, or is it support to organisations or is it money put to mediawork and places where they can better their imago?

Am I supposed to feel insulted? I am not!

yeah, there's no need to feel insulted, we're not here to fight, remember

Oh, and Steel Drummer. I see that you would not want to have sex with a man, but we do see men have say, anal sex with women too, I don't really see a difference there, unless you mean it's the ideology in it that shouldn't be the way it is. Remeber that no-one's attacking you, I'd just like to hear.

[MrColossal]

I would like to read a source for your billions of dollars for gay people claim, please?

[Dan_N]

Yes, it's basically none of the government's business what sexuality a person has, so it, as an institution should have no problem with anyone's sexuality. If sexual intercourse is carried out between two (or more) consenting people, then there's no real problem here... The problem is when one person does not offer his/her consent, or is taken advantage of (i.e. paedophilia).

Unfortunately, the government, the church, and a substantial bit of the people don't give a rat's arse about anything except tradition, so heterosexuality is enforced, either subtily (did you notice that there's always mum and dad in the detergent comercial, not mum and mum or dad and dad?) or blatantly.

People will never get along, because hate is incrusted in the nature of Humanity, because Humanity allowed hate to set up shop there in the first place...

[Becky]

I mean outside of sex.

What -specifically- is wrong with two men or two women having sex?  And if you say "it's icky", you lose.

[Meowster]

You agree they should have the same rights as everyone else? I'm going to be honest... given your past comments, that surprises but pleases me. Do you think they should be given the right to adopt children and marry?

Also, can you elaborate on this whole special government benefits thing? I'm not really sure what you mean by it... I mean, it automatically makes me think of the Gay Parade that Brighton has... which is sponsered by several big companies but is absolutely BRILLIANT... everybody has such an amazing time, gay or not gay... it's just a massive colourful loud party in Brighton that everybody enjoys. So, I wouldn't be against that... but I'm still not sure what you mean exactly. Soo... elaborate? 

Same rights: Well, they are people. :/
A couple adopting a kid... I dunno. That would be kind of weird if the kid had to bring his parents to school or something:
Teacher: Hello Tommy, who are these people?
Tommy: This is my daddy, and my daddy.
Teacher: That's...emm... nice.

Gay marriage: I don't think so. I'm not against two men doing whatever they want, but getting physical together is a big no-no in my book.

Government benefits: Like I said, I'm not sure about where you're from, but in North America, big companies are giving millions of dollars to homosexual groups. Companies like Ford, Wal-Mart, etc. If they give so much to that minority group, why not give millions to Jews, or blacks, or Muslims? Do you understand what I mean, now Meowster?

By the way, I checked your profile (Meowster) and it says you're a male. Are you gay, because I remember you saying you had a boyfriend...

No, sorry, I'm female and straight... I set it as male years ago, don't know why...

Companies DO give millions of dollars to "minority groups" such as Jews, black people, and muslims. There are plenty of groups out there that promote these groups... I mean, not so long ago, people were discriminating against black people in much the same way as people now discriminate against gay people. There is nothing different in giving money to gay groups. Or do you disagree?

As for it being awkward to introduce your gay parents to your friends... okay, you believe that good christians should not be judgemental, yes? In that case, it should not matter if a child introduces his parents to you, and they're gay, because you will NOT judge that child based on what his or her parents do. If anybody else does, say for instance, non-christians that are anti-gay anyway... then we should not discriminate against the child or the parents because of the ignorant actions of other people. Do you understand what I'm saying? Do you agree or disagree?

It's perfectly reasonable to believe, no matter what your views, that two men or two women can raise a child together as well as a man or a woman. I mean, look at what a bad job some men and women do of it nowadays... it's not hard to better them is it

Also, if you don't believe that gay people should be able to marry/have sex, then you really don't believe that they have the same rights. Please, I know how you feel but you must accept that you really don't believe they should have the same rights. But I ask you to think about this:

If a man wants to marry another man under the blessing of God, who are you to decide if that is right or wrong, or if that's what god wants? You may THINK it isn't what god wants, but surely they should be allowed to nonetheless? And if it ISN'T what god wants, then he won't validate their marriage or accept it himself... but what business is it of ours to choose what GOD wants?

[Tuomas]

Oh, and MrColossal and Dan, we'd like to hear about your views and experiences too, and not get this stuck on an argument

And I think, what we want to know here, SteelDrummer, is not "what makes you think you can decide for them" but what makes you think it's not ok, because I know my mother and my brother are a bit anti-gay, and I do understand their views. I'd like to hear wherer they all come from.

[Steel Drummer]

I think what she means is, we'd all like to know, if you happen to, that what are these benefits like. Is it so, that a registered homosexual gets a certain amount of money on their account per month, or is it support to organisations or is it money put to mediawork and places where they can better their imago?

Well, I'm not 100% positive if they actually are getting sponsored by big corporations, since it hasn't really been publicized too much, but I'll try to look around for articles that talk about that. If I'm correct, companies like Ford spend billions of dollars, funding homo groups, putting ads in homo magazines, and giving money to that minority group. IMO, if gays want to be treated equally, then they should be getting just as much 'funding' as regular people, and not receive special treatment. 

Companies DO give millions of dollars to "minority groups" such as Jews, black people, and muslims. There are plenty of groups out there that promote these groups... I mean, not so long ago, people were discriminating against black people in much the same way as people now discriminate against gay people. There is nothing different in giving money to gay groups. Or do you disagree?

Blacks and Jews are actual races of people- gays aren't. They make up an even smaller population than either group. 

What -specifically- is wrong with two men or two women having sex?  And if you say "it's icky", you lose.

You don't think it's wrong, but I do, because the Bible says so. God intended sex and marriage to be between one man and one woman. Heck, if he didn't, then why weren't Adam and Eve two men? 

Oh, and MrColossal and Dan, we'd like to hear about your views and experiences too, and not get this stuck on an argument.

You can add Becky to that list as well.

[ManicMatt]

Hey, lets say there is a god, and the bible speaks his mind on many subjects. Can't God change his mind? Or is he timeless? I'm just curious... and if he is timeless, how do we know the book has always said the same thing? *Matt's head explodes*

Adam and Eve would have to be into each other to make the species start. Perhaps homosexuality infact lowers the population rate, no? A balance, if you will.