Many of you seem to rage against the so called "useless posts", a specific set of text without meaning, purpose or value. The current warlord of this be the often insulted Flukeblake, but I ask simply;
Why is these posts regarded pointless?
In my oppinion, knowing that a specific person suddenly grew a vast amount of inches (and don't get me wrong here) is just as valuable information as SONY fudging up your computer.
Is it the personal issue, that height is only something regarded to the thread starter? People post threads about how they plan to buy specific consoles or earlobe issues, or pictures of newborn sons. No flaming there..
Is it that height is completely invaluable topic discussions, or growth? Pfft!
Browsing through the general forum, I find that most threads hands out to actual questions about a specific subject. Others are welcoming to discussions of a specific subject, which differs from questions since the starter adds his 2 cents first and ask for others. A kind of query about personal preferences in order to know the forumites further. Then we have the informational subjects; newsworthy stuff. "I have to tell the others about this shit going down". Here's where my biggest concern is. Well not concern but question then. What decides whether it is newsworthy or not? General interests? We're gamers so news about games attract us? Social concerns? We are social creatures and the very forum is social, thus social matters qualify?
In any sense, Flukeblakes height may have interested few, but it is as valid as pictures of babies any day in terms of social engangement and reference. But let us NOT fall in the pit of debating whether a person should be flamed or not, THIS THREAD IS NOT MEANT TO DISCUSS A SPECIFIC FORUMITE! I MEAN IT, I'LL BLOODY PM-FLAME YOU IF YOU DO! This thread is a 'query' according to aformentioned genres, and what I REALLY ASK about, after all this is:
How do you decide whether you should click that 'new topic'-button or not. Have you not had a moment of doubt? Have you pondered whether this is a suitable subject of discussion or not? If so, on what basis do you decide its suitability?
Actually, I think some people (...some who have been here for years...) start some pretty retarded posts themselves, it's not just the newbies. Plus, it's all relative how pointless a post is.
I usually only start a new topic if I have a question that can't be answered by "Googling" something.
EDIT: Nevermind that last part I posted before. It's dumb.
In all honesty, the General Forums are completely useless. Not to say I don't enjoy them, or I wouldn't miss them if they went away. These are Adventure Game Studio forums, so anything that doesn't have to do with Adventures, Games or Creation Programs would essentially be useless.
Since we DO have a General forum, I'd assume ANY topic would be post worthy. In my opinion, the "Falling to the 2nd Page", In-thread Flaming, Locking, Deleting are all well working filtering processes for checking the quality of a thread. If someone was REALLY not interested in how tall someone grew, aside from a few "This is a dumb thread" posts, no one would have posted in the thread. The thing is - right now - the "Apparent Annoyingness of Flukeblake" seems a more interesting topic of discussion than "I finally grew a few inches". I'm sure you've noticed, if someone else had posted such a thread, there would have been less outcry.
You can PM-FLAME me now
It is not about "what" do you post, but on "how" do you post. Google for Andail's photojournal when he went to Egypt, and google for Flukeblake's trip journal to see what I mean.
One thing is to post pics, feelings, info about local culture... and the other is to say "I am in Tasmania, I had a great breakfast! I'll post more about this some of this days..."
And never come back to the thread.
Of course, I don't want to focus this on a member that I don't think that deserves such attention, but its a point that hopes that can be applied to many posts:
A post saying "Hey, my wife had a baby, post about it, suckers!" would suck. A post with pics, some info, and some tender words is, even being basically the same, suitable.
Hope it makes sense and explains my point.
If people think more before posting, there would be more interesting topics per thread started. This would encourage more mature and thoughtful people to partake in the discussions.
If every thread was some random tossed out question without any personal reflections, people would grew tired of the entire forum and move to something else.
It's all a matter of forming this forum into something better.
Linus, you're not a very frequent poster these days, so I take it that you don't care very much for the gen-gen anyhow.
I'm not being too harsh moderator-wise when it comes to gen-gen, but I'd certainly prefer if people stopped starting threads for the only purpose of having more started threads, if they waited until they actually had something interesting to say or share.
I'm not naming anyone, just a general thought.
If i am happy about something and i want to share it with you guys is that a stupid thing to do?
You'll PM FLAME me? Jesus christ, 2ma2 @_@
It is a general forum and of course, ultimately, what stays and what goes comes down to the moderator's discression. However, when I see certain threads, I roll my eyes. Now I make some retarded threads. Purposely too, sometimes. But I believe it's an art to be able to make a retarded thread you know people will enjoy. Most of my purposely retarded threads have ended up generating a lot of discussion, retarded discussion as it may have been, and work pretty well. I think I'm mature enough, smart enough, and know the community well enough to pull it off, as are most people who have been here awhile. If everyone gave me flack for it though, I'd apologise and think twice before doing it again.
The reality of it is that when the majority of people here enjoy a thread, it'll go over nicely, regardless of the content. When they don't, some will do the "right" thing and ignore it and some will make a comment about what a *whatever* thread it is.
Part of why Fluke gets so much flack isn't just that people hold a grudge over his initial bad posts, but that he's still too young to be able to post in way most people here can relate to. I mean, I personally wanna talk with people who I have things in common with and in this community, that means people who 'get' old school adventure games and have similar memories to me in regards to gaming, life, etc. Now, age isn't the problem here as it has been stated over and over, a lot of very young posters here fit in really well. Heck, I wouldn't even know a lot of them were young. This is because of the way they post. They're mature enough, internet savvy enough and well spoken enough to "get away with it", as it were. Some kids aren't.
This isn't an attack on Fluke, just using him as the obvious example. Personally, I think he's coming along nicely and learning how to post well and fit in with the general community here. As he gets older and spends more time here, he'll "learn the ways" and fit in as well as anyone here.
Part of the reason for that, though, is BECAUSE people here make a big deal about his posts. I know it sounds like I'm a dickhead advocating bullying, but really, if a stink wasn't kicked up, the message wouldn't hit home. It happens with me all the time, it's like getting a slap in the face. It's just like when people come here with horrendous spelling and speaking leet. We make fun of them a lot and they get that people don't want it here.
I think the point I was trying to get to though is that there's still a real 'tone' of immaturity to Fluke's posts (speaking specifically about the height one). It's hard to miss. It's like when you can tell you're speaking to someone for whom english isn't their first language, even though gramatically it may well be correct. It's picking up on that that makes people see a real distance between them and said youngun', and it -can- be annoying when you've enjoyed having a forum full of essentially mates and peers for so long.
This is the way I read it anyway, and to be honest I'm pretty sure I'm 100% right on this one. We've been through it before with young RoXoRz!!1! posters and a lot of them are now awesome members of the community that post fine. If Fluke hangs around enough and continues to pick up the vibe of the place, he'll start to become a valued member here too.
I think you have to let the free market go on it's own merry way within reason. If people think a post is stupid, let them say. If everyone else thinks that person is being a negative dick, let THEM say. It'll balance out eventually.
EDIT: Now, my case in point, and I'm not doing this to piss anyone off, just trying to show what I mean. Fluke can still be a little immature or whatever, but he's growing on me. I think he's really starting to fit in bit by bit. LJUBI, on the other hand, still irks me to no end because they've been here long enough and had enough people spout opinions at them to know to start checking their spelling, grammar, whatnot and they don't. To me, I just haven't seen any posts that "fit in" with this community, and just about everything they post comes out sounding very... well, either severely controversial, not thought out, or just plain weird.
No specific offense intended, but that's the way I feel. I think others feel the same too, given the reception they usually receive.
Quote from: Andail on Sun 20/11/2005 14:05:57
If people think more before posting, there would be more interesting topics per thread started. This would encourage more mature and thoughtful people to partake in the discussions.
If every thread was some random tossed out question without any personal reflections, people would grew tired of the entire forum and move to something else.
It's all a matter of forming this forum into something better.
I reckon Andail hits the nail on the head here.
When I read threads, I like a bit of subtance to them. More meat, less fat.
For an example of a thread without substance, take this grand masterpiece from Fluke...
QuoteIt's finally happened!
After 13 years of being paid out about being short,
i've had a pretty big growth spurt.
While it's not drastic (about 75% of the class are taller than me)
it's a lot better.
I CAN ACTUALLY WALK DOWN A HALLWAY WITHOUT A YEAR 9+ MAKING A JOKE ABOUT MY HEIGHT!
Ah, the puberty system works.
Cheers,
(a normal, non-short) Fb.
While this might be a significant achievement for Fluke, it leaves me wondering "So what?" If Fluke really feels the need to fill the internet with the banal minutia of his life, why can't the fucker start a blog or a myspace profile? Everyone has one these days, so why can't he utilise the POWER OF TECHNOLOGY to do so.
If he's going to post on a forum, he has to consider that other people read it and can contribute. And it seems people on this forum perfer to contribute to something a little more thought-provoking.
I don't dissuade him from posting here but I do encourage that he tries harder at providing a little more substance. If he can't do that, then maybe he should find a forum that specialises in posting extremely trivial bullshit.
The best way to deal with a thread you don't like is of course to simply ignore it.
Which do you think is the better scenario:
"Hey look at me! This is a pointless thread!" - 0 replies
or
"Hey look at me! This is a pointless thread!" - 54 replies, 7 saying "lock this thread", 7 saying "don't pretend to be a moderator", 4 saying "what a waste of bandwith all these posts including mine are", 1 saying "bananas are delicious", 22 arguing about whether or not bananas actually are delicious, 11 more off-topic posts, 1 post saying "bush sux" and finally 1 where a moderator posts something and finally locks the thread.
I'd choose the first one.
(Oh, and btw, feel like posting "bananas are delicious" in this thread? Think it would be a funny post to counter this one? No. Please don't.)
Quote from: Ghormak on Sun 20/11/2005 16:51:26
(Oh, and btw, feel like posting "bananas are delicious" in this thread? Think it would be a funny post to counter this one? No. Please don't.)
Rats, I hate it when people disable me from making the only kind of humourous remarks I can accomplish.
I'm more of a person that contributes to a started thread than a thread starter. I've always been intimadated by starting a thread, and unless I know it will be a good piece of conversation than I don't start it....Kind of like when speaking to people socially, I only really (try) to talk them about things that are conversation worthy. A person would look kinda silly if they started talking about what cereal they ate and how long their toenails were to a person who wasnt a close friend, and so a person looks silly when they do the same on the internet.
Do I think certain people that do this are a problem? Not really, the person in question only seems to do it about once a week, and it's not as if he's trolling the forums...
Anyway, we all know he's really DG in disguise anyway....
Quote from: DGMacphee on Sun 20/11/2005 15:26:39
While this might be a significant achievement for Fluke, it leaves me wondering "So what?" If Fluke really feels the need to fill the internet with the banal minutia of his life, why can't the fucker start a blog or a myspace profile? Everyone has one these days, so why can't he utilise the POWER OF TECHNOLOGY to do so.
If he's going to post on a forum, he has to consider that other people read it and can contribute. And it seems people on this forum perfer to contribute to something a little more thought-provoking.
I don't dissuade him from posting here but I do encourage that he tries harder at providing a little more substance. If he can't do that, then maybe he should find a forum that specialises in posting extremely trivial bullshit.
A lot of posts leave me completely indifferent, yet interest others. What I consider quite fascinating and worthy of discussion, others may condemn as banal.
We're entering an area of considerable subjectivity here. Although Flukebake's low age might make his interests somewhat less likely to coincide with those of the avarage forum reader, thinking oneself capable of casting ultimate conclusive judgement over what topics are worth discussing can't lead to anything good. It's also rather pointless considering that, as Ghormak says, a pointless thread is (or should be) likely to die of its own accord. The only reason the post DGMacphee quoted grew to four or five pages is the overzealous attempts to preserve a good substance-to-nonsense ratio. Evidently, this was counter-productive.
This is one of those very few problems that actually do solve themselves if we ignore them. In fact, it becomes a problem only when we fail to do so.
I agree with that last statement, but I also see merit in Kinoko's statement about people learning when they see what people think of their posts. They may never figure it out and go on like that forever, and nobody wants that.
KINOKOS THREADS KICK @ss..
Pointless threads are why the general discussion thread has been made, for newbies, for veterans, and even some of the moderators which would just like to talk about something else accept ... <wait for a pointless ammount of seconds> Adventures!
Come on guys as much as we like to talk about the holy grail "that little blue cup" we have other interests and needs too! We like to share our feelings, and opinions on other topics and though they seem pointless to you, they mean alot to someone else and people that relate to that topic.
Point being that a almishman sees no use in electricity, but an electrician... ???
Everytime this discussion comes up, I mention the post limits. Though, most of the time they are ignored.
I think one of the older examples is Jimi. Remember him? Damn, he was a pest. Was. He was limited to several posts a day, which helped put him on the back burner and simmer down. I know the realivence is low to the "frequent nonsence user", but I think it's all in the same. Place a limit, or a block, on starting new threads on this person. When they've matured some, the block can be lifted.
Or maybe the world news is dying out. Maybe topic ideas are just not in high existance anymore. Back in the day there'd be three or four threads with new posts in them. Now we've got a page.
The AGS community isn't about creating games anymore.
I just re-read my post and although IS awesome, I feel I went off on a tangent of backpedalling too much and my point was lost a little.
What I really want to say is that I really only want to talk to my peers (best term I can think of), people who are at least as old as I am and have similar experiences to me. Most people are like that. I just don't have a lot of patience for listening to the opinions of people who think Monkey Island 3 is a 'classic'. May sound harsh, but it's the truth, that's just what I'm interested in and it's one of the reasons I like these forums so much.
Although I do think Fluke has the capacity to fit in here with time, he's still annoying and has a LONG way to go. Still, I think he'll be fine in time.
That all said, I guess my real point is that I don't think silence is always the best way to deal with a "bad" thread. Sometimes, sure. There isn't a collective mind here though. We can't all link minds and decide to ignore a thread. I think it's best that individuals state their opinions and in the end, a collective, general opinion on a thread will emerge.
Afflict: Thankyou for the props but I think you missed my point somewhat. The General Forum -isn't- for pointless threads. It's about non-adventure threads. If the occasional silly thread starts up, that's fine with me, but it has to be well timed and you have to have a good sense to make it work. You have to be genuinely funny. It's the difference between being a DG, who posts greatly timed and executed replies, and a ... well, any one of a thousand other people whose 'funny' replies get lost or misconstrued because they just don't work.
For the most part, pointless threads should be discouraged because most people won't be able to pull them off. However, I don't think we need to lose our heads when one does start up.
If any of you are too new to remember Tanker - there was a guy that needed a post limit.
Quote from: Squinky on Sun 20/11/2005 17:20:57
Anyway, we all know he's really DG in disguise anyway....
I'm like the AGS equivalent of Fletch.
btw guys can you help me with my math hoemwork?
Quote from: Kinoko on Mon 21/11/2005 00:35:20
It's the difference between being a DG, who posts greatly timed and executed replies, and a ... well, any one of a thousand other people whose 'funny' replies get lost or misconstrued because they just don't work.
Thank you muchly for the kind words.
Quote from: Farlander on Sun 20/11/2005 14:04:15
google for Flukeblake's trip journal to see what I mean.
I thought i told you this but maybe i didn't:
On the cruise, you had to buy Online Time (in the form of a card, with a code on it which you had to input on the menu of the Internet Cafe's computers),
i got 1 hour, and i had a shitty keyboard. I didn't have time to write full reports on each day and hitting the 's' key 20 times to get that letter into the post is one hell of an annoying and frustrating proposition.
And BTW, i don't consider this an "attack" on me, i am, as some have said, the obvious example, i've created positively pointless threads and most of the AGS population find me an annoying moron.
Go figure.
Blake.
Useless posts? Most of them are. If you think about it, the rule is "interesting, helpful, or funny", two of which are useless. Stupid threads are what amuse me the most--A retarded comment, and within seconds someone is right there to make some kind of response, while a question regarding the coding of a character switch trigger is left unanswered, and is forced to be bumped up before being responded to--which almost always starts with "don't bump you're own thread up". Now, I haven't been around these forums for too long (21 Aug 2005, compare that to some senior members) but this is what I see going on at times. A ridiculous comment gets many more (unintentional ;)) ridiculous answers.
QuoteIn all honesty, the General Forums are completely useless. Not to say I don't enjoy them, or I wouldn't miss them if they went away. These are Adventure Game Studio forums, so anything that doesn't have to do with Adventures, Games or Creation Programs would essentially be useless.
IMO all of these forums are entirely useless... I decided that using the crit's lounge and Games In Production isn't going to help anything, and that I should learn to do everything myself. Grant it sometimes I could use help with things, there's never much I couldn't figure out without asking for help from my family or reading a manual. (This is just my personal view... I know others have gotten help from crits and GIP)
EDIT: Ah, fb's response-- curse you're lightning fast typing! The fact remains that the wording of your post wasn't the best, and could have been done better.
Bah, life's too short for silly internet drama. If a thread is not spamming or trolling, who cares?
Amen to that!!
Babar: Consider yourself flamed.
Farlander: I assume your point be that actual linguistic quality or presentation defines thread quality, independant of content? But is this true? Correct spelling and grammar might be pleasant to watch and heighten readibility, but interesting topics may be lost just because the persona have limited knowledge of the english language, or textual communication at large. If we think a topic is interesting, yet lack presentation or actual punctuation, is it not our duty to establish the discussion with a reply adding this? Because if it is not, then why bother replying in the first place.
Andail: But what defines 'better'? And what is something worthy to share? Despite my lack of posting, I do read the forums almost daily, and follow threads that interest me. And other threads I do not follow. Must it be another way?
LJUBI: No.
Kinoko: Yes I will PM-flame you. But let's ot discuss that.
The fact that you can 'get away' with something apparantly silly and worthless ties in to Farlanders thoughts of presentation value. Also Hyde's oh so true remark on how 'oldies' make silly posts aswell from time to time, without suffering. But your other ideas are more interesting. The fact that you wish to discuss with people with similar interests, references and preferences implies you see the forum as something dear and close to you. In fact, something that in many ways are yours.
This is a natural development of human social behaviour, but a world wide forum presents the villager hostility rather openly. Adapt or suffer the consequences. We are very much threatened by people entering our spheres bringing change, but where a village could always bring the pitchforks and torches to get rid of nasty elements, a forum is owned by noone and a result of its inhabitants. So the notion of qualitative threads is just a matter of personal taste of the established forumites. My question is; Who are we to decide a threads value by our subjective preferences?
DG: With that, I think we have reached two separate notions that attract our forumites tastes. Presentation and substance. But where presentation is very much based on subjectivity, substance is more solid. Or is it? Bringing up your example, I can retrive very much sustance from that:
Growth, frustration of physical appearance, exposition, school relations, puberty and how that affects all of the aformentioned and actual relief of being considered 'normal'.
Where it lacks in presentation, and writing of reflection, if you read between the lines, you can pick up and interpret reflection pretty easy due to the naïvistic use of words. And that may either spawn discussions on the perils of puberty, the aspiration of fitting in and the fear of not doing such. Your other point is regarding the receiver. Where a blog is almost anonymous, a forum works with a specific set of receivers, and this notion is much more interesting. As Kinoko mentioned, she knew the community well enough to know what works and what does not. So in such a matter, it is near impossible to make a valid thread as a newcomer since you have no means of knowing the forumites preferences without some intense lurkings; and even then, the familarity between regulars spawn jokes, nudges and irony that might give the wrong impression of a community.
Basically, he/she can write that, but you can't. No actual question here, just a reflection. It is like this in all social gatherings, www or no www.
Ghormak: I love you
Squinky: Is that really true? Often, being in a group with a common interest makes you debate outrageous sillyness without knowing eachother that well at all. Well, ok, perhaps the Order of Perpetual Sorrow might not discuss breakfast cereals vividly, but in any sense, I can tell you dozens of people I've had immensly silly discussions with, without knowing them at all. Just having something in comment. I can only speak of myself ofcourse.
Eldkatt: Regardless of your wonderful input, I must PM-flame you now..
No Linnus, you completelly missed my point. I was talking of effort. There are some "IMO annoying" posts are perfect gramatically, but they aint more than a line or an extremelly short/lack of effort brief. As Yaksplit said... Why should we spent more than 5 seconds replying to a thread made in 30? The most effort, the most enthusiastic reply.
I am very bad at grammar, as you can see... ^_^ But I try to present my threads propperly and put effort into it...
Quote from: 2ma2 on Mon 21/11/2005 11:35:58
Kinoko: Yes I will PM-flame you. But let's ot discuss that.
The fact that you can 'get away' with something apparantly silly and worthless ties in to Farlanders thoughts of presentation value. Also Hyde's oh so true remark on how 'oldies' make silly posts aswell from time to time, without suffering. But your other ideas are more interesting. The fact that you wish to discuss with people with similar interests, references and preferences implies you see the forum as something dear and close to you. In fact, something that in many ways are yours.
This is a natural development of human social behaviour, but a world wide forum presents the villager hostility rather openly. Adapt or suffer the consequences. We are very much threatened by people entering our spheres bringing change, but where a village could always bring the pitchforks and torches to get rid of nasty elements, a forum is owned by noone and a result of its inhabitants. So the notion of qualitative threads is just a matter of personal taste of the established forumites. My question is; Who are we to decide a threads value by our subjective preferences?
But I think that's just it. We dont 'decide', and we should be open minded, but at the same time, what's wrong with every individual who wants to expressing their opinion of a post?
Quote from: 2ma2 on Mon 21/11/2005 11:35:58
DG: With that, I think we have reached two separate notions that attract our forumites tastes. Presentation and substance. But where presentation is very much based on subjectivity, substance is more solid. Or is it? Bringing up your example, I can retrive very much sustance from that:
Growth, frustration of physical appearance, exposition, school relations, puberty and how that affects all of the aformentioned and actual relief of being considered 'normal'.
Where it lacks in presentation, and writing of reflection, if you read between the lines, you can pick up and interpret reflection pretty easy due to the naïvistic use of words.
You make Fluke out to be some kind of Peter Sellers-like character from the movie Being There where the most banal blatherings can cause deep thinkers to go, "Hmm, yes he does have a point!"
Could media analysts in 50 years time read Fluke's posts and scatch their heads while thinking, "Hmmm, what could these strange texts mean? This man is wise beyond his years!"
I honestly doubt it. But stranger things have happened so, meh, I could be wrong.
All I can say is sure, I agree with you that there's a lot of insight in Fluke's posts on the perils of puberty... but only if you're psychology professor investigating teen development (and let's fact it, there are hundreds of those guys on this board every single day)!
But if that's the case, I might as well do the same thing... Start threads on the most trivial aspects of my life. For example: "today cleaned some storage sheds! IT WAS AWESOME cuase i used a BRUSH! then i drove home! watch out cars i'm in a hurry! weeeeee". I'm sure from that you could extrapolate great substance on the mind of a 24-year-old dickhead.
Now imagine if we all did this. Ta-da! You're just created the internet version of a toilet bowl.
See, a lot of the threads on this forum do have some specific purpose. Ususally it's someone looking for a specific piece of software (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=23575.0), someone with material to debate (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=23478.0), or shameless bragging (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=23543.0). Notice Fluke didn't cop too much flack for his "please help me with my homework" thread (even though the bastard should do his own damn homework)! See, that thread at least had a purpose.
But to tell us that he's grown a couple of inches? Great. Good for him. But does he really have to announce it here? To quote David Cross, I don't cream my pants when the guy at the donut shop gets my order right.
Maybe that's just my grumpy, old man perspective on things. But that's just it -- a perspective. To be honest, I don't really care. I do the same thing as Ghormak... I just ignore those threads and carry on with my life. But since the issue has been brought to light (like it has sooooo many times in the past), I figured I'd add my cashews to the mixed nuts.
Also, what Farlander said about effort. Farlander may not have the best grasp of English but the dude tries his best every single time to get very insightful points across.
Farlander: Ah, right, that's another Barbie to fry. But then again, what defines effort? It is possible that someone spend 3 hours thinking on how to formulate something, and then yet write one line, be lacking of effort? I do see your point though..
Kinoko: Nor do I, I do not try to defend useless posts, I just want to cause a ruckus. The point is not to accept all posts, but to heighten the awareness on why we do not accept all posts. Because in that sense, the flames of people annoyed are just as valid as the post that annoyed them in the first place.
DG: I do not think that text has deeper meanings, but when reading between the lines, you can find substance. I can agree that less is more only if the lesser is based out of the more and carefully cut out in a conscious way. Or in a more suitable wording: To say little, you have to think big.
However..
"But does he really have to announce it here?"
..that goes for basicallly anything. The line between interest and pointless crap is next to zip. And the bastard is elastic aswell. To clarify; the forum rules, both official and inofficial are not based on anything but constructed preferences without any basis other than sociocultural (in)differences. Therefor, how can you decide wether a thread topic has value or not before it actually do get feedback?
Nobody said it's easy to draw the line, but there is a line somewhere, and we have to draw it.
You have a line too, Linus. If somebody would start three threads in a row stating "poobungies" along with eleven exclamation marks, you would find them rather useless as well.
At the moment the tolerance of the general member of this forum is just slightly below yours, it seems. There's nothing wrong with you being extra tolerant, but we're all different.
In the end, CJ sets the standard.
Linus, I have an assortment of ideas in regards to your queries.
Quote from: 2ma2 on Mon 21/11/2005 16:04:07
DG: I do not think that text has deeper meanings, but when reading between the lines, you can find substance. I can agree that less is more only if the lesser is based out of the more and carefully cut out in a conscious way. Or in a more suitable wording: To say little, you have to think big.
In that case, I think the problem with Fluke's posts is that he doesn't think big either. He limits the sphere of his inital post to himself and never really opens things up for discussion. I think he needs to expand his posts to encourage better communication.
Quote"But does he really have to announce it here?"
..that goes for basicallly anything. The line between interest and pointless crap is next to zip. And the bastard is elastic aswell. To clarify; the forum rules, both official and inofficial are not based on anything but constructed preferences without any basis other than sociocultural (in)differences. Therefor, how can you decide wether a thread topic has value or not before it actually do get feedback?
I'm not too sure how you came to the conclusion that something that has interest has the same value as something that's pointless (if that is what you're saying) -- I can see what you're saying in some regards, but at the same time i ask if it's either helpful or harmful. It's a pretty big leap that you haven't really justified to well, other than "that goes for basicallly anything". It's sort of like comparing salmon to a MacDonald's Fillet o' Fish and concluding they both are edible because they're both food. (DG notes: you can build you own house with Micky-D's Fillet o' Fishes as bricks. The special sauce also makes a good substitute for concrete.) We humans crave information as much as we crave food. Even more so in some cases. If the choice was up to me, I'd pick the threads that taste like salmon. But that's because I'd a snobbish bastard. (Can someone pass the grey poupon, please?)
I think there's a difference between a thread that encourages the free exchange of ideas in order to make us an enlightened community, and one that focuses squarely on the trivialities of a 13-year-old. I don't think that has as much to do with alienating sociocultural differences because Fluke is more than welcome to give his 2 cents in any of the other major topics out there and I'm sure he's contributed at least some nuggets of insight to our more popular topics. Hooray for freedom of speech! And I'm not disregarding his worth as someone who can provide insight. But when setting a particular agenda for a thread (as in "Okay, we're going to discuss this: blah blah blah"), he really needs to try harder.
My guess is this forum assumes a fairly high level of maturity of its members. That's not to say people under 16 can't join. They can. They just have to be willing to participate in communications that require a more mature tone. It's fine to discuss the heights of all form members, but make the thread a little more relevant. Expand the height issue so people aren't going, "So what?"
How about something like:
Quotehey Guys!
i've had a huge growth spurt in the last few days. now all my friends won't call me shorty.
fluke: 1, puberty: 0
**how about you? did you have any difficulties with you height? or puberty in general? share your stories...**
kthxby
I've tried to replicate Fluke's typing style to show that presentation is no big deal as such, but my main point is its at least a initial post that can encourage discussion. The bit with the asterisks where I ask what the rest of the forum thinks is key.
But I don't think it's unjust for users here to become critical when Fluke posts some random blatherings about his height and expect them to actually give a shit. Once again, just my opinion. Maybe it's just a miscommunication on Fluke's behalfn
And to be honest, these forums are pretty lenient with such things. I've been to forums where people (normally 13 and 14 year-olds) start dud threads and then get the shit kicked out of them. If this was SomethingAwful, Fluke would have been banned by his second post. And even after paying the $10 to use the forums in the first place!
So a pointless, uninspiring thread can be improved by explicitly telling people to discuss it? I really don't think this is where the problem (or solution) lies. The flaws:
1. Discussion is the whole point of a discussion forum. Post something on a discussion forum, and people will discuss it (well, unless they ignore it) because the invitation to discussion is implied by the very fact that it's on a discussion forum. If there's any need to tell people to discuss, then you should really try to find another forum.
2. If you consider a thread--such as our favourite case-in-point, Flukebake's height thread--dull, pointless and with little food for further discussion, then the substance of the actual post and its subject can't be improved by tacking on that little remark. That's just icing on the cake. If it's a bad cake, no such icing will save it. If it's a good cake, it'll need no icing.
Well, there's only so far you can stretch the "3 golden rules"... for example:
I start a thread about my life. All the crap that happened to me and my family the past 13 years... written down into one huge post. Sure, it could be interesting... mabye even helpful, and funny... but would it be right to post such a thread? Of course not. The "minimum age here is 16" is almost impossible to enforce. I could be an 8 year old korean kid, or a 75 year old crazy jamacian guy simply pretending to be 13--and there's not a damn thing anyone could do to tell if it's true. The "if you're not a mod." thing I dislike. People use that too much when someone responds to a stupid comment. Though it is a valid rule and point, it should be properly interpreted. Also, it's very hipocritical to say something like that--by doing so, you are acting like a mod.
No, EldKatt... As 2ma2 said, no thread is pointless, there is no divine law which says "DG MacPhee's political threads are good, Fluke's moogoo recipes are not". But a thread well presented, with some topics, explanations and personal experiences invite to share... whereas a post which has been made (thought, typed and posted) in 30 seconds does not invite to anything more than flaming the poster if you haven't had a good day, or simply ignore if you had a nice one.
Aye. My point was not to say people should explicitly ask for feedback in threads. More so, my point was to open the sphere of your thread, take it to the next level, and give us something more.
Quote from: Lord Nipper on Mon 21/11/2005 19:55:07
a 75 year old crazy jamacian guy simply pretending to be 13--and there's not a damn thing anyone could do to tell if it's true.
how did you know (sorry, i'm just trying to keep these threads comedic admist all this hellish doom.)
To me, it's all about investment. Many people have started threads that share personal details (sometimes way too many) or a personal revelation. Even the pretty pointless Ear Cyst thread by Geof revealed something potentially embarassing until you realize how very common it is (and how readily people discuss it when they themselves have that realization).
When a thread doesn't invest anything that specifically pertains to the individual, people become indignant because they've (in essense) been asked to invest themselves in something that it seems the creator doesn't care about. Why we haven't discovered that posts go away if they're ignored is beyond me.
The height thread (to beat this one into the ground), could've been made more interesting with specifics, but more so if it were expanded with something other than a common factual statement. Maybe instead of starting threads like this one, we could introduce a bitch-slap smiley and be a little more efficient about these things. Let Fluke work on communication skills (which he has, obviously) and move on. He's a scapegoat at the moment, but there've been more asinine personalities that've come and gone.
Now if we could just fix DG, everything'd be swell.
Quote from: YakSpit on Tue 22/11/2005 05:45:29
Now if we could just fix DG, everything'd be swell.
We'll just pretend we're taking him to the ice cream parlor instead of the vet. He'll understand eventually.
Icecream? Oh boy! I'll definately come with you guHEYWAITAMINUTE!!
Andail: Yes, we all have lines, and I really do not think I am a bit more tolerant than you. I am infact more fascist supportive and filled with contempt than you might imagine. But the thread was not about increased forum tolerance, but a discussion on how you set your line and what basis you use for putting it where you put it. Metadiscussion at it's worst..
And Happy Birthday f00! ;D
DG: Yes, interest and pointless matters are on an objective basis the same thing. Value is something nonexistant. What does matter however I think you, Farlander and Eldkatt discussed to it's simple solution, and YakSpit took it down with great wording:
"but more so if it were expanded with something other than a common factual statement."
NOTE usage of word 'something'
To summarize:
A threads value is the result of undefinable axioms that differ the topic from mere factual statements to a discussional invitation.
These axioms are the result of the very core of human social interactions, thus impossible to define, only easy to spot when failed.
I am pleased. You may use this thread to further taunt DG (Hey, it's fun!) or perhaps debate wether bananas actually are deliscious or not. If you do must, feel free to question statement above.. but I'd rather you didn't. :-*
Quote from: 2ma2 on Tue 22/11/2005 14:30:50I am pleased. You may use this thread to further taunt DG (Hey, it's fun!) or perhaps debate wether bananas actually are deliscious or not. If you do must, feel free to question statement above.. but I'd rather you didn't.Ã, :-*
Why not turn it into a religious debate?
It all comes down to this: If you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and saviour, all your new started threads are automatically going to be interesting.
Quote from: 2ma2 on Tue 22/11/2005 14:30:50
And Happy Birthday f00! ;D
Thanks, mate :)
And there's no real point in complaining on DG. He's like a part of the furniture that came with this joint. You can try to taunt him, but you'll end up making out with him. Or something.
Now I'm forever cursed with the image of Andail making out with furniture.
The bottom line is that, the general thread is there for...
GENERAL THREADS!
Anything else except adventure related stuff.
General:
Applying to all or most members of a category or group...
LIke I said before people have life after AGS.
---->___________<---- Bottom Line
Quote from: YakSpit on Tue 22/11/2005 18:28:54
Now I'm forever cursed with the image of Andail making out with furniture.
You're welcome, mate, that one was on me.
I think the answer to all of this is simple:
common sense!
For some strange reason the majority of the people seem to "always" agree on certain points/things/ideas/easthetiques. I for one completly trust the moderators to do their job right. And furthermore have the right to give away any stupid/not funny/not usefull thread to them in order for them to lock it.
And by the way, I feel that it's not the subject or the firs post that really really counts. There are some wonderfull examples of amazing threads (I do recall one by Andail about growing older...), with 25+ replies, all in-topic and beautifull, but also other threads, completly silly (Who thinks Nicholas Cage is a bad actor? (the answer is all!), or Hi I'm new here, how is everybody doing?), which for some reason get 50+ replies and a wonderfull discussion, completly off-topic. But why not? Most of Flukes threads are locked but drive a lot of members to philosophise on any off-topic issues (for the tolerance of the law, or the speed laws, or the AGS map, or...) Nothing wrong with that.
A community needs some "laws". CJ decided on the laws, the moderators make sure we keep them, and I'm happy with that!
As far as I'm concerned Fluke has cleaned up his act. He has stopped trying to be cool by using ebonics and cryptic language substitutions. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's amusing to me, being the old fart I am, to see a bunch of 19 year olds point out how imature some 13 year old is. How mature do you think your current disscussions will appear to yourselves 30 years from now? ;)
I find the personal attacks, in which so many seem to enjoy participating, far more offensive and counter productive than any silly ass thread. So why don't we just all take a deep breath and chill.
Yes, I believe that Fluke has proven himself mature (more than he was a while ago in time). He has cleaned up his act!
This thread has nothing to do with Fluke! End of story for me!
Nikolas, I'm VERY hurt you don't like my Nikolas Cage thread.
VERY hurt :(
Quote from: Nikolas on Tue 22/11/2005 23:11:43
Yes, I believe that Fluke has proven himself mature (more than he was a while ago in time). He has cleaned up his act!
I have?? HUZZAH!!!
Quote from: 2ma2 on Tue 22/11/2005 14:30:50
DG: Yes, interest and pointless matters are on an objective basis the same thing.
I don't know if I'd agree. I would say
sometimes pointless matters can be interesting. But not everything interesting is pointless. A minor contention, though.
And to everyone who treats me like a piece of furniture, consider me a lounge chair WHO WILL PUNCH YOU IN THE THROAT WITH A RACECAR!!
ha ha j/k kthxbye lol!!1!
P.S. I also agree about Fluke. His new thread on Warhammer is a big improvement on his old ones.
Quote from: Nikolas on Tue 22/11/2005 23:11:43
This thread has nothing to do with Fluke! ...
Am I wrong?
Nikolas: Yes you are. As stated in the initial post, all posts trying to debate Fluke will be PM-flamed to avoid Fluke-debating. := Also, common sense is something noone can define, so how can someone possible try to achieve it if lacking the aformentioned?
DG: You can see it like this: Is life interesting or pointless? I'm a nihilist so for me, value is pointless in itself. That might further explain my view and argument.
RickJ: What the hell do you mean?! I know everything!! I'm bloody 21!! I've seen it all!! And you resemble Ghormak to me..
Guybrush: No, Jesus spoketh himself that though shall be tolerant and bend over. Interest hath nothing to do with the acceptance of threading. No, hear the words of the great enlightment: "There is no interest.."
Also, regaring Andails acitvities with furniture, you should be glad you did not attend Mittens! My God, those images will forever be burned into my eyes.
Quote
RickJ: What the hell do you mean?! I know everything!! I'm bloody 21!! I've seen it all!! And you resemble Ghormak to me..
Hehe, you've just made my point and in 20 years or so you'll understand. :=
I'm bloody 28 with two children! And if he speaks the truth RickJ is 49! And Barbarian 30 something. So?
And I don't deserve to be flamed cause I was making a point of leaving someone alone, as he does not deserve it, nor the thread is for him...
As for common sense, it's common, it does not need definitions. As I said in my first post, most people seem to tend to agree on certain things. This is common sense... (in a generall sense)...
Thank you...
Sorry Rick, but only a tiny portion of the population gets increasingly more mature as they grow older. More people tend to grow more childish instead.
When he turns 40, the average Joe buys a sports car and a bar desk to the rumpus room, and is happy if he can watch baseball and drink beer every night of the week together with his pals, with which he exchanges stupid blondes-jokes.
Older people develop prejudices and narrow thoughts, and focus more on money and comfort than anything else.
Quote from: Andail on Wed 23/11/2005 14:35:10
Sorry Rick, but only a tiny portion of the population gets increasingly more mature as they grow older. More people tend to grow more childish instead.
When he turns 40, the average Joe buys a sports car and a bar desk to the rumpus room, and is happy if he can watch baseball and drink beer every night of the week together with his pals, with which he exchanges stupid blondes-jokes.
Older people develop prejudices and narrow thoughts, and focus more on money and comfort than anything else.
Heh. Andail would know I guess, working with the elderly.
We'll at least when I'm older I'm sure I will think I'm wiser.
QuoteWe'll at least when I'm older I'm sure I will think I'm wiser.
I'm sure when I'm older I'll think I'm better than everyone...
Heh... somebody I know just did all those things andail mentioned, plus he got a boat... going through a mid-life chrisis at the age of 21.
Quote from: 2ma2 on Wed 23/11/2005 11:05:49
DG: You can see it like this: Is life interesting or pointless? I'm a nihilist so for me, value is pointless in itself. That might further explain my view and argument.
Like I said, I do understand where you're coming from. I'm just saying I don't agree, mainly because I have a different view of the world.
I wouldn't say one is more correct than the other. I'm just saying it's a case of different perspectives.
Acutually, I've changed my mind. My view is more correct BECAUSE I'M ALWAYS RIGHT SO CHANGE YOUR OPINION OR ELSE I'LL BEAT YOU WITH MY LARGE LUMPY STICK!!
;)
Quote from: Nikolas on Wed 23/11/2005 12:13:52
I'm bloody 28 with two children! And if he speaks the truth RickJ is 49! And Barbarian 30 something. So?
Hey, wait a minnit :o how did I get dragged into this current beating-a-dead-horse "discussion" thing? I've been doing my best to avoid it.
Guess that's what I get for being an "old man" 'round here, but I'm still in my prime enuff to kick a few young butts if need be. I'm not over-the-hill yet as some of you young 'uns may think. Heck, I'm still in my prime enough that I just recently found out that I might even be in a fight-scene with Jackie Chan in an upcoming movie that's about to go into production (waiting to hear back confirmation on it though).
:= Oh yeah, DG, as ya get older, you'll find that your stick get's larger and lumpier...
Sorry barbarian...
Cool about Chacky Chan though! Really cool! Let us know...
[off-topic]
and i'm a 75 year old crazy jamaican posing as a 13 year old.
Nikolas: You did read the initial post did you not? You got flamed because you brought up a specific forumite within your post, not whether you defended him or not. It was by all means with love. About 50% of the posters in this thread got it. :)
"As for common sense, it's common, it does not need definitions. As I said in my first post, most people seem to tend to agree on certain things. This is common sense... (in a generall sense)..."
Everything needs definition. To reflect upon yourself is crucial to avoid unnecessary harm. Whenever we see sociocultural occurances as unquestionable truths, we risk prejudice, intolerance and quite frankly; suffering. The fact that common sense very inbetween countries clearly state that common sense is only common within a community, not something of actual objective value. Just because a majority of the commune agree does not mean that it is of good or bad, only of democratic choice.
RickJ: That was my intention := Just wait until your 60..
Barbarian: So it gets larger? Despite any lumpiness, that HAS to be good, right? ;)
Ok. Fair enough!
But about common sense I will have to disagree a little:
Of course if you overanalyse everything then you do need a definition. But I believe that common sense works better without one.
And speaking of communities, I think that this one is called the AGS community. And from what I've seen in my short time here (I kinda feel like a newbie still...), is that there are certain "rules". It doesn't necessarily mean that the "rules" are correct or not, but CJ decided that he wants them, and furthermore the community itself seems to know what it wants. I do know that no member has ever been kicked out of here but at the same time, the "wrong" post are deleted and people who come from Maryland (don't flame me, hehe), seem to dissapear after a while. Members who decide to stay and give it a try find out what that common sense is all about.
A small example:
This is a thread in the Production Forum:
"I've started a new game", I don't have any screenshots yet but it will be fabulous. It's about a guy who... I need someone to script it, someone to draw it, someone to write music, and a couple of voice-actors. I will be the head of all this"
Now I think that a certain moderator would freak out with this kind of posting. And we've seen posts like this.
There are a lot of things wrong with this kind of thread.
1. Simple: The rules state that you need 2 screenshots.
2. If you need help as in the appropriate thread.
3. But even the simples mind will tell you that this game does not exist at all, and so it shouldn't be in the Production Forum in the first place.
No.3 Could be called common sense.
I think that here we have a community that tries to be tidy and democratic at the same time. This takes guts and is very difficult to accomplish. And furthermore it needs the help of the members and not let only the moderators to do all the job.
Another word for common sense is probably thinking.
My english is a little poor but I hope you understand what I mean.
It seems the general topic has gone far and away, but I had two yen, thirteen drachmas and twenty-nine francs to throw in. I wish my serious postings on a new game or on some other topic that I start as an attempt to draw interesting conversation from the community got as much attention as "I'm growing," "I'm on vacation," "Here's how you mix yogurt with nuts," and, that oldie-but-goodie, "Look, I drew sonic the retard and a Union Jack hooked up to a Tesla coil, what do you think about them?"
Yes, this is a community, and within lies common sense, something derived from the experience of user throughout severeal years. It is not over-analysing; it is mere analysing to seek definitions of things we hold as true. I personally loathe the usage of the word "over-analysing" since it implies that questions are driven further than they should. Why? What is feared?
Yes, this forum have rules, but what I questioned was not the rules but the interpretation of said. Since the rules of the Gen-Gen define value as well thought, interesting and/or helpful - Ã, completely subjective terms defined by common sense - the actual value of started threads are non-existant until someone read and judge it [worthy to reply].
About your example: Common sense does not state that that game does not exist because quite frankly, when do games start to exist while in production? During the pre-production stage? When the plot is thought out? This thread is not suitable based on the 1:st fault, namely that 2 screenshots are required. This is an objective rule and thus easy to follow and maintain.
By all means, common sense is when you stop thinking and go by autopilot.
Quote from: 2ma2 on Thu 24/11/2005 10:26:52
By all means, common sense is when you stop thinking and go by autopilot.
Hmmm, you might be right here!
About overanalysing: I've seen so much of it that I'm sick of analysing everything. And frankly there is a lot of analysing going on in Uk (IMHO), and I think that it's enough. I have the impressiopn that things are worst in the States but I'm not sure really. I was trying to get out of analysing what common sense is (thus leaving it without definition).
Anyway, this is a hard call but I have placed my trust on the moderators before and I will do it again. From what I've seen they do a very good job.
And for the record, my first post was a post saying "Hi! I'm a compser does anybody need me?" It was locked, but not before Barbarian (and sorry to name you again, it's just a story though), welcomed me in such a good manner that I thought to myself that this place is great. Never the less the thread was locked.
I consider myself and many others here (regardless of age, cause in my list there is a 13 year old goose), mature enough to point anyone in the right direction. IMO of course, which might be wrong, but if I start thinking like this, I'll go mad. And I expect as I welcomed myself the locking of my first thread, cause it...well, made sense, that the others do the same. And most of them do.
But we are getting away from the topic as we keep on talking, my next answer if you care to continue will be through PM. I think it's better...
On the topic: The final judges are us, the members. If a thread (although wrong, by definition) stays unlocked for long enough, there are chances that th thread will automatically turn into somothing interesting. Why? Because this community holds some interesting people inside.
Note: I'm optimistic kinda guy! ;D
Yes, well topics are impossble to keep. But I think we've reached the unevitable agreement on disagreement :=