hello,
I think I could use your help and opinions, since they were extremely useful when preparing my "Alice in Wonderland in popular culture" class.
I have to prepare a new class, this time I can show a little video and use up to 60 minutes (Last time I had 15) I want to describe how the current dominant waves of thinking/attitude known as 'emo', constitute the re discovery of romanticism: pessimism caused by the 11th sept. attacks and school shootings at the end of the 20th century, and a overall feeling of being surrounded by violence.
The question is, how?
Romanticism was known for these points:
* Emotions over reason
* Nationalism
* Liberalism
* Anti conformism
* The self as imperfect, unfinished and open, surrounded by the opposite
* Individualism
* Appeal to dark, obscure settings, like the night
* Sadness, solitude, melancholy
I'm sure these fit very well the emo attitude, except for nationalism. And I'm sure that emos do idealize the human body, thing that romantics didn't do.
The video I'll show is "Welcome to the Black Parade" by My chemical romance, as an anthem of these characteristics.
What do you think?
Also, how did romantics view fate and self determination? The same as emos?
Interesting idea. And good choice of music, I love that song.
As somebody who hangs out with some messed up emo kids, let me talk about what I know.
-Nationalism: Like any American, some have it, some don't. They tend to hate the majority, and fear crowds. They wish they were understood, but shun comfort. Emos tend to have almost a "nationality" of their own. If they're alike, they tend to hang out.
-Idolizing the Human Body: Um, most people do this? It's called sexuality?
On an interesting note, though, emos tend to not like showing sexual characteristics sometimes, in order to APPEAR more sexual to their own kind. It's strange, but true. Some also crossdress, as is the case with my best friend.
Also, take note that not all emos are depressed. They're kind of a subculture, if you will. The ones I know seem pretty happy most of the time, but seem to get extremely depressed over breakups, family mishaps, etc. Although that sort of behavior is normal for anybody, emos tend to magnify that behavior a lot more.
That's all I have to say about that.
How do you figure 9.11 was involved with the creation of emo?
http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spring03/Seawell/history.htm
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=the+EMO+Movement
Perhaps crowds of high school kids lept onto the phenomenon due to the attacks but I was curious if you interviewed emo kids about their reasons for their lifestyle choice.
Quote* Anti conformism
That one keeps cracking me up, whether it's referring to emos or any other subculture. Nobody is anti conformist, they're selectively conformist. Emos are conformist towards the emo 'style', punks are conformist to the punk 'style', metalheads are conformist to their own style.
I love it when people go "I am unique!". So's everyone else! Where's your uniqueness now? ;D
What about nature? Romanticism is very closely linked to the addressing of the sublime nature.
Quote from: Andail on Thu 14/06/2007 10:47:55
What about nature? Romanticism is very closely linked to the addressing of the sublime nature.
I agree, it seems to be particularly concerned with nature unleashed, you know, storms, winds and so forth.
Where does Adam Ant come into this? ???
To be honest, I hardly think that emos are individual.
They all care so much that EVERYONE ELSE THINKS they're individual, that it's just not individual at all.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XEJDGLF-e18
This must be some sort of puzzle!
emos = "some" backwards. WHAT COULD IT MEAN?!?!?!
I believe that this whole Romanticism/Classicism thing can, in the broadest sense, be seen kind of like a pendulum that swings back and forth. And I further believe that in general we are currently in a Romantic period. So I'd suggest that, yes, these kids dubbing themselves "EMO!!!11LOL" are a part of the current Romantic phase, but certainly not the whole of it.
This discussion is slightly ridiculous...
I listen to some music that could be called emo (MCR/Dashboard Conffesional) But i don't share any of these character traits that are being chucked about.
I also like other music as well
On a side not, the Smiths were the first and greatest emos.
Indeed, I listen to Clipse (hip-hop), Paradise Lost (Gothic metal), Clor (Electronic pop), Athlete (Indie), Roni Size Reprazents (Drum n bass), Kathryn Williams (Folk), MCR (Emo), Pitchshifter (Industrial) and Face To Face (Punk.)
So I must be an urban goth emo indie chav hippy punk.
Something about a band named after a John Milton book just seems... bologna.
why did this get moved to general discussion? this isn't meant to be a discussion! i was just asking for help in preparing my class...
anyway thanks a lot. You can't imagine how useful all these stuff is.
Quote-Nationalism: Like any American, some have it, some don't. Emos tend to have almost a "nationality" of their own. If they're alike, they tend to hang out.
You're right- i should have noticed this earlier: they do label themselves emo, after all.
Quote-Idolizing the Human Body: Um, most people do this? It's called sexuality?
On an interesting note, though, emos tend to not like showing sexual characteristics sometimes, in order to APPEAR more sexual to their own kind. It's strange, but true. Some also crossdress, as is the case with my best friend.
True, thanks. I don't think it's important if they cross dress, it's just part of the fashion that emos use, and fashions can be anything. Just for the record I myself wear black tights often.
QuoteHow do you figure 9.11 was involved with the creation of emo?
I haven't asked any emos "why are you emo", because I'm not going to get an answer like "9/11 made me realize the futility of life". The reason for why they see the world the way the do is, in my opinion, sub conscious, and only comes out with the lyrics of their music, that they identify with.
I don't really know how it started (I'm talking about the sub culture; not the music. I know there was a music sub genre at the end of the 80's called "emo" I think they're completely different phenomenons) but since 9/11 made Gerard Way start My Chemical romance, I figure that's 1 reason. I mean, he couldn't be the only one who was affected like that.
By the way were you the author of that Urban Dictionary article? It's great. I'm going to use that. thanks
QuoteThat one keeps cracking me up, whether it's referring to emos or any other subculture. Nobody is anti conformist, they're selectively conformist. Emos are conformist towards the emo 'style', punks are conformist to the punk 'style', metalheads are conformist to their own style.
Yes you're right, but I want to analyze what they stand for and where does it come from.
QuoteI agree, it seems to be particularly concerned with nature unleashed, you know, storms, winds and so forth.
What about emos? do you see any of that in the emo culture?
Quotebelieve that this whole Romanticism/Classicism thing can, in the broadest sense, be seen kind of like a pendulum that swings back and forth. And I further believe that in general we are currently in a Romantic period. So I'd suggest that, yes, these kids dubbing themselves "EMO!!!11LOL" are a part of the current Romantic phase, but certainly not the whole of it.
That's true. I liked the way that sounds, I'm going to copy and paste that and keep it, my closing statement has to be something like that.
Just wondering, what would be "the rest of it"?
QuoteI listen to some music that could be called emo (MCR/Dashboard Conffesional) But i don't share any of these character traits that are being chucked about.
Then you're not part of the emo culture.
Quote from: evenwolf on Thu 14/06/2007 23:13:06
Something about a band named after a John Milton book just seems... bologna.
Riiiight. Well it's a film now as well! Infact, I was wearing a Paradise Lost band t-shirt the other day and a customer in my store asked me if I'd seen the film yet. Grr. Maybe I'll pretend I'm a big fan of Milton's eh!
Quote from: police brutality on Thu 14/06/2007 23:13:56Quote from: Erenanbelieve that this whole Romanticism/Classicism thing can, in the broadest sense, be seen kind of like a pendulum that swings back and forth. And I further believe that in general we are currently in a Romantic period. So I'd suggest that, yes, these kids dubbing themselves "EMO!!!11LOL" are a part of the current Romantic phase, but certainly not the whole of it.
That's true. I liked the way that sounds, I'm going to copy and paste that and keep it, my closing statement has to be something like that.
Just wondering, what would be "the rest of it"?
Well, first of all, I'm not really sure it's so simple as a true pendulum. My understanding of Romanticism is pretty strictly focused on the arts, and especially music, so I'll focus on that for the sake of avoiding bullshit as much as I can. Back in the day it appears to me that Romanticism was the dominant approach to the arts. It was a strong majority. Currently, however, although I do believe that contemporary artistry is predominantly Romantic in nature, we've reached a point in the development of art as a social function that there may not be any present majority in terms of a simply defined -ism. Many have attempted to dub the present age as Pluralism, but I think it won't be clear until we view it in retrospect.
As for the "rest of it," it might include anything from George Crumb's music to Stephen King's fiction to movies by directors such as Stanley Kubrick or Darren Aronofsky.
Concerning Emo's origins, I'm sure it's possible that current events, including what happened on September 11th, might have had an influence on the development of the Emo subculture, if indeed we can call it a subculture. World War I had an enormous effect on the thinking of the general public. The general attitude before the war was that humankind had unlimited potential, and everyone was excited to see what wonders man would come up with. Then the war broke out and this attitude was shattered. Dadaism was one notable result. It seems reasonable to me that 9/11 would... affect, if not shatter, the attitude of contemporary Americans, and Emo could very well be in part a direct or indirect result of that effect (probably indirect, if you ask me). But it does appear to be a direct growth from earlier subcultures. In any case, social development is a complicated thing, and I don't think it will be remotely clear until a few decades have passed and we can look back at it to get some perspective.
And if you're going to copy and paste what I wrote, then please paraphrase it. At the very least, don't put "EMO!!!11LOL" in your assignment. And be warned! I even suspect my own post of being bullshit. At least... partially...
We technically can be still be said to be in the romantic era anyway. In fact it was the romantics who started the whole artists free expression and control over there own work idea. Not to mention the " Crazy artists are the most expressive" idea
Romance is based on passion, irrational love, and something quite noble which I can't put my finger on.
Emo is based on being single, having long hair, and a lot of hormones.
Whilst I can see what you're going for, romanticism is decent and respectable, but emo-ism is often just silly and self-perpetuating. It's like a middle class form of "depression".
I'd be quite interested if you could reconcile the two ideas successfully.
To me, romanticism is something to be respected, possibly admired. It's about love, culture, passion, and a lot of the other things you'd list if you were trying to work out what made mankind worthwhile. Emo seems to be based on people who have a varying degree of association with a type of music which reflects their current negative emotions. And they have long hair.
Personally, if you try to compare the two you're going to struggle. You're actually romanticising emo, making it out to be a much more important thing than it is. Ah, irony.
I didn't say that, I just said that we are still IN the romantic era, and therefore how can emo be Neo-romantic? like classicism and neoclassicism were separated by ( I think) baroque and rococo. From what I know yes, emo is silly. and not in a good way. its like those middle class white hip hop fans. I'm not saying white guys can't rap its just ir seems to all a bunch of well, posing. there is no real. but was there ever?
Quote from: Alliance on Thu 14/06/2007 05:19:13
-Nationalism: Like any American, some have it, some don't.
I don't know why, but this rubbed me the wrong way. I know you didn't mean it this way, but it came across as if you're assuming it's just about Americans. Sadly, emos are fucking everywhere.
As a serious answer to the original question though - why do you assume that emo is something 'new' or even unique? It isn't - believe me. Emos are pretty much what comes after goth. And goth comes from new wave. And new wave were the original goths/emos. The difference is that the music's changed back towards the new wave more (punk influences rather than metal) and due to the advent of internet, the way they show themselves to the world has changed.
Emospace is pretty much the place for emos. All the pictures taken in bathrooms, looking sad in their camera in mirror shots. Emos by definition are no different than skaters, punks, metalheads and any other music style with a dress code. It's just one of many.
I get so sick of people trying to quantify fads that I actually feel rather saddened by the fact that people are willing to spend their time wondering about these stupid things. Emos like specific music, they dress accordingly (or not). Do you recognize an emo by what he listens to? No.
You recognize them by their clothing, hair style.
Just like you recognize any other music fan who's dressing according to the music genre's generally accepted style.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Gah.
@lo_res_man: Baroque came before the Classical period. Classicism and Neoclassicism were separated by the Romantic period. The Neoclassical movement, at least in music, came at the end of the Romantic era, and was probably another product of the onset of World War I. These dramatic kinds of events invariably produce some change in the cultural atmosphere, and while the Dadaists turned towards what appeared to be a flippant attitude towards art and intellectualism, the Neoclassicists embraced traditional forms and structures.
All this to say that while I doubt the Emo trend is in its entirety a direct result of the 9/11 attacks, those events, like World Wars I and II, most certainly had an effect on contemporary culture (particularly American), and this in turn would reasonably be expected to have an effect on the cultural outlook of the modern youth, which I do suspect includes, at least in part, the development of Emo.
And I do want to point out that I find the Emo subculture to be rather silly. But as my wife is studying to become an educational counselor, I do have some measure of interest in the why and how of modern youth culture, and this supercedes what I find silly. Children think and behave the way they do for a reason (many reasons), and I think it's often prudent to try to understand why.
Quote from: police brutality on Thu 14/06/2007 23:13:56
why did this get moved to general discussion? this isn't meant to be a discussion! i was just asking for help in preparing my class...
The critics lounge is for getting c&c on creative material you publish. You haven't published any creative material, you have listed a few questions that you need help with for a school assignment.
You should know how to use the forums by now.
Emos are posers, end of topic. Besides, you know any grown up emo? Romanticism was among the adults too, you know.
What are they posing as?
Your attitude is all well and good, but it is a gnerecic dismissal, which i doubt you can back up. Any group of people who follow a fashion trend could be called a poser, why single out emos?
No Grown up Emos? Emos are teenagers because teenagers have to deal with growing up, changing and finding out about themselves, issues which adults don't have, to a certain extent. For some people, listening to sad music and dressing a certain way is an outlet. Certainley a healthier one than putting on a hoody and mugging someone.
I think "subculture" is the operative word here.
The romantic period was defined by romaticism being the prevailing trend throughout the society of the western world. It wasn't just something teenagers cried about in their bedrooms.
Quote from: Zooty on Fri 15/06/2007 12:12:35
Certainley a healthier one than putting on a hoody and mugging someone.
Discrimination.
Hoodies and muggings are mutually exclusive. One does not inspire the other. Just as I could wear a hoody and be a perfectly respectable member of society, I could equally go around mugging someone in a tweed jacket and bow-tie.
I wasnt suggesting that in any way. But putting on a hopody and mugging somoene isnt a good outlet is it? I was just giving an example. Not naming another group.
While I do acknowledge that the two bear a few traits in common, there are considerable differences. Romanticism was a mass movement in the XIX century, whereas emo-ism is more like a movement of social outcasts and people who generally tend to see themselves as anti-conformists. Also, people from the romantic movement, even it's more darker and gloomier side(Poe, Baudelaire etc.) never cut themselves. Death was seen as a savior, but all the same a quiet death was something generally disliked, unlike heroic , romanitc notions of death in battle.
On a more humorous side, this is what wiki tells you:
Emo:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Emo.JPG)
Romanticism:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Caspar_David_Friedrich_032.jpg)
Quote from: Vel on Fri 15/06/2007 16:01:28
Also, people from the romantic movement, even it's more darker and gloomier side(Poe, Baudelaire etc.) never cut themselves.
Aha? You examined their bodies?
I believe a certain type of people have always tried to hurt themselves, to overshadow their inner, spiritual pain. Maybe not always with dad's razor in front of their bathroom mirror, but in various ways. I think people lately (=this generation) have brought it to new levels because it's been acknowledged by society.
I've heard really really old people, at least women, talk about how they used to cut themselves back in the 30's even, although nobody back then would imagine that selfmutilation was a common practice.
Quote from: Zooty on Fri 15/06/2007 12:12:35
What are they posing as?
Your attitude is all well and good, but it is a gnerecic dismissal, which i doubt you can back up. Any group of people who follow a fashion trend could be called a poser, why single out emos?
No Grown up Emos? Emos are teenagers because teenagers have to deal with growing up, changing and finding out about themselves, issues which adults don't have, to a certain extent. For some people, listening to sad music and dressing a certain way is an outlet. Certainley a healthier one than putting on a hoody and mugging someone.
One thing is to wear some clothes, whats considered fashion (a business propaganda of big cloth corporations), different issue is to extend it to behavior by denying self. Shure its about finding out in a teenage period but that only leads to that people have too much free time. Sobing about some deep emotional state is just a nitpick, an excuse. If you have something important to do, you forget about your deeper state and discover that you are absolutely ok. You ever go to the movies? You know sometimes the film may be so interesting that you forget you have to cough since you are ill. Nature is based on physical acts and physical acts construct the emotional state, so, some hobbies or a work doesn't do any bad.
I am not saying emos are bad, I don't care much really. I am just trying to say that a person may lose something, make a wrong desicion because he/she is being confused with that "emo-state". I am too young to be a parent, but maybe some fathers here can say a word what they would think if their kid turns emo and starts writin suicidal poems that one day turn into just a fake act.
Quote from: radiowaves on Fri 15/06/2007 17:54:59
Shure its about finding out in a teenage period but that only leads to that people have too much free time. Sobing about some deep emotional state is just a nitpick, an excuse. If you have something important to do, you forget about your deeper state and discover that you are absolutely ok. You ever go to the movioes? You know sometimes the film may be so interesting that you forget you have to cough since you are ill. Nature is based on physical acts and physical acts construct the emotional state, so, some hobbies or a work doesn't do any bad.
You simplify what it is to be human. Not only emos have inner conflicts and depressions.
Also, if teenagers feel they need to write suicidal notes - whether it's sincere or "just an act" as you so know-it-allingly describes it, it tells something about society, and should make people and especially parents to ask questions about the world we live in, rather then tell off their kids or force them to go to the cinema.
Todays society was exactly my point. Yes, every human has some deeper state but not in such extension as emos.
You ever wonder why such subcultures only rule in certain societies, like rich white kid societies for example? There are proabbly not much emos in Brazilian slums or in Brooklyn ghettos, instead of lifestyle, what we white kids use to have, they have life - true culture that has grown from actual condition of society. Look at hip-hop for example. European and American hip-hop is completely different, and there is rich kids mainstream and more abstract hip hop, often called as underground hip hop which rich white trash has fakely obtained too. So, such things as hip-hop, emo etc , that are often called as lifestyles, are more like hobbies for fat western kid whose physical and emotional states are perfect, so balanced that the kid doesn't know what to do anymore and invents some emotional state or culture inspired by others. Because in nature, practical conditions do all the guidance. True people do not need to act out their emotional states -- they live it.
Romanticism indeed can be compared to emo state, but I would compare it more with hippies :D
I've processed this discussion so far, and I realize I was wrong, like Mr Flibble said, it'd be an struggle to put Emo as Romanticism, I would just be romanticising it.
The difference comes down to just one thing, like it's been pointed out: romanticism is about passion (and hence the political element, I suppose) emo, to me, doesn't have that, and it's more about feeling apathetic.
However, I'm still VERY puzzled by this, I mean, I'm pretty sure that a large portion of "emos" aren't just feeling they way they do just to follow a trend. Sure, many of them can be posing, but the reason many bands with lyrics like "I can't make it on my own, so cut my wrists and black my eyes" become very popular, must be that they're somehow saying what some people want to say. And I think that's a lot of people, and their reasons for feeling that way, should have a common origin, something's that going on with our society that either didn't exist or wasn't noticed 10 years ago.
In my opinion, at this point, no movement can be a "mass movement", because literally, the huge variety of movements and sub cultures that exist in the world today make EVERY culture a minority.
However, if we pick the Western World, and try to find a common denominator for all the subcultures/tastes/rituals/tendencies of it's high and middle classes, (the classes that generally are more educated, and thus represent better the feeling of their country) can we say we're going trough a romantic period?
EDIT
QuoteSo, such things as hip-hop, emo etc , that are often called as lifestyles, are more like hobbies for fat western kid whose physical and emotional states are perfect, so balanced that the kid doesn't know what to do anymore and invents some emotional state or culture inspired by others. Because in nature, practical conditions do all the guidance. True people do not need to act out their emotional states -- they live it.
I don't think so. Having no goals in life and feeling apathetic is enough reason to feel depressed => depressing music => liking it => imitating the band's wardrobe etc.
Heck, I feel depressed too, alot, thought about suicides, but heck I don't get much relief in depressing music, so I don't consider myself an emo. I am just the one who needs a psychologist. Now lots of emos, in my mind, don't need a psych. "All the pain of the world is inside me" and all that crap, I just don't buy it, thats a fake one. If a person feels depressed, he doesn't talk like this and start imitating some band after that, he does stuff of his own.
Ofcourse I may be wrong and that is just my subjective opinion, so no offence to anyone etc.
i don't find most music that modern "emos" listen to, really that depressing.
They just really overdo it to the point of pastiche.