The Ethics of Unsolicited Promotion

[Calin Leafshade]

Good morning ladies and gentlemen, I have a question for your noggins. You may also use other body parts but I suggest you engage your noggins first.

So far, with Nexus, I have worked on the principle that a game should not appear on the service unless explicitly added by the author.

However, I have noticed that sites frequently take freeware indie games and offer them up for download elsewhere entirely unsolicited.

Now, in theory, I could rip all the AGS games from the gamesdb and add them into the nexus database. Would this be unethical? or even illegal?

Authors would still have the option to remove their games if they so wished and the only consequence would be more players of their games.

Your thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.. and then uploaded to a database without your permission.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Such things are only 'illegal' if the game is either:

A) A commercial piece (indie or other)

B) Has express written objections by the author in either the game documentation or the game itself about distribution without permission. 

Whether or not it is unethical is one of those x people agree y people disagree situations so you'd have to form your own opinion.

[Calin Leafshade]

I disagree with your application of the law there buck-o.

Copyright (and the right for exclusive distribution) is implicit.

You dont have to declare that you dont want your work to be distributed, the distributer must get permission.

That's why newspapers can't reprint stuff from your blog just because they feel like it and so on.

At least thats my understanding.

Whether or not it is unethical is one of those x people agree y people disagree situations so you'd have to form your own opinion.

Ethics is something that can be studied and reasoned... I'm asking for people's opinions and reasons for that opinion.. so what use is "people think different things so make your own mind up"?

I'm asking for peoples opinions *in order* to make my mind up.

[InCreator]

ProgZ is right.
Don't want your game to be databased/rehosted? Add a disclaimer.
If ignored, sue their ass.

Simple in theory, probably hell and "not worth it" in practice.

Depends on local laws too. But by default, you have say in how to distribute your stuff... protected with law.

[Charity]

It might be illegal?  I mean, it is distributing copyrighted property without explicit consent.  I know other free things on the Internet sometimes have disclaimers stating who is allowed to distribute them.  See them on FAQs and license agreements from time to time.  But that's legality.

[EDIT: Ah.  Other people answered this better-^]

Ethically, there are probably reasons why a person might want to control distribution of a freely available game.  Maybe they want to make sure players have to visit their website, for instance.  For publicity reasons?  Some might see having to ask you to take their games down as an inconvenience that they shouldn't have had to go through to begin with.  Not saying it is a practical or enforceable stance, but there are people who think this way, and you would run the risk of disrupting their interests.

Personally, I would be grateful to have my games reach a wider audience, and free hosting is always a plus, too.  I would probably appreciate being asked first, as a courtesy, though I don't think I would feel slighted if I weren't asked.  MAYBE I would if I weren't credited, but I would make sure my name was all over my stuff anyway, so anyone who cared who made it would know.

I haven't been following this Nexus thing, so I don't know how it is supposed to work.  But if you don't want to step on toes, I would contact the authors of games before uploading them, and also provide links to their websites (if relevant) next to the downloads.  That way the worst thing you can be accused of is an unsolicited e-mail.

But of course that could get inconvenient for you or whoever has to send the e-mails, and a lot of people probably will never get back to you.  There is an argument to be made that the service you provide by hosting a comprehensive list of games outweighs whatever ruffled feathers might come from hosting someone's game without permission, and you are unlikely to get into actual legal trouble, I would think.  It just wouldn't be an ethically spotless argument.

[InCreator]

It makes sense.
Maybe my game IS commercial, free to download, but money comes from ads on game website, so rehosting turns off my profit?
There's even no place to speak of ethics -- it's outright stealing.

[Snarky]

Not theft, copyright infringement...

I haven't really followed this Nexus thing either. Could it be presented as a new service of the AGS games database? That way you might not require special permission.

[Charity]

There's even no place to speak of ethics -- it's outright stealing.

Well, technically, people talk about ethics when they attempt to justify for instance the use of the atom bomb in World War II, or apparent deital endorsement of the Old Testament genocides.  So even if outright stealing is a fair characterization of the situation you describe, I wouldn't say it leaves NO room for ethical debate.

[Leon]

Afaik there are no non-commercial titles in the database that have a disclaimer about the distribution. What you could do to be on the safe side is PM all the makers in the database and ask for permission. If the maker doesn't respond, don't bother to add the game. The maker then doesn't care for the game anymore or the game is way too old. That also takes care of all the DOS games that you can't play directly :-)

[Wonkyth]

I'm with Leon here.

[cat]

Good I saw this in time so I can add a disclamer to my game...

Taking a game and uploading it to your db is not allowed by copyright I think. It's like the newspaper thing mentioned before.

[karja]

So far, with Nexus, I have worked on the principle that a game should not appear on the service unless explicitly added by the author.

If you don´t want to contact all the creators I would say it is probably best to stick with that. If Nexus gets a big enough userbase most of the people here will upload their games there to get maximum downloads anyway.
And it saves a lot of work/time for you that you can use to manage Nexus instead.  

[tzachs]

Well, you can do as Softpedia does.
First they added my games, then they emailed me about it with all the details and added this disclaimer in the end of the mail:


If you feel that having your product listed on Softpedia is not a benefit
for you or simply need something changed or updated, please contact us via
email at webmaster@softpedia.com and we will work with you to fix any
problem you may have found with the product's listing.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I disagree with your application of the law there buck-o.

Disagree 'til your heart's content; it won't make you any more right.  A copyright by itself will only protect certain 'natural or exclusive' rights of the creator, such as derivative works and unauthorized distribution, the conditions of which must be outlined by the holder of the copyright (and for full confidence, be obtained in writing by the Copyright Office).  For example, in addition to the normal copyright whatever jargon, every commercial dvd has a line like this somewhere on the box:

'Unauthorized copying, hiring, lending, public performance or radio or tv broadcast of this DVD is prohibited'.  It is clarifying exactly what is unauthorized as it varies by media and conditions, and without it, people have successfully defeated copyright suits.  That's why these extra bits exist.

A freeware release is further muddled because the nature of the beast indicates free use and distribution unless you add caveats.  Bottom line, a (c) on your work doesn't mean all the work has been done for you.

[Calin Leafshade]

That's absurd.

That would mean that *every* piece of work you did would need to be accompanied by a disclaimer which is clearly not the case.

For those who are not aware of Nexus the plan is to expand it to become the GOG/Steam of all freeware games allowing people to download and play games with essentially 2 clicks.

for instance I added 5DAS (only for testing, i've removed it now) and with nexus it's possible to find, download and run the game in about 12 seconds.

this would be even quicker if a nexus-link were followed.

people can add 'nexus-links' to forums/websites/wherever in the form

Code: ags

nexus://install:####
where #### = the gameid

then you can click the link and nexus will automatically install the game, then you just have to click play.

you can also have a link like

Code: ags

nexus://game:####

which takes you to the game page in nexus but doesnt install it.

cool, no?

[bicilotti]

That's absurd.

Well... ProgZ showed you an example; every player in the DVD industry adds that kind of caveat in their releases. Overkill? Don't ask me, I'm not a lawyer; still I think ProgZ brought a fact in this ocean of "methinks...", so hooray for him.

for instance I added 5DAS (only for testing, i've removed it now) and with nexus it's possible to find, download and run the game in about 12 seconds.

cool, no?

12 seconds? :o Incredibly cool!

edit: as for the ethics of it, I feel mass uploading + adding a button like "if you're the author of this game and don't like your creature here, push this!" could do. 99% of indie gamers would like to be featured in Nexus and you're more than fairly dealing with the remaining 1%. Warning, these 2 eurocents are debatable!

[karja]

My opinion of the copyright is that you do not have to add anything.. If you created it and if it is an original work. Then it is up to you to decide if someone may spread it without your permission.

From wikipedia:(not always true but I do belive this is)

"Copyright is a set of exclusive rights granted to the author or creator of an original work, including the right to copy, distribute and adapt the work. Copyright does not protect ideas, only their expression or fixation. In most jurisdictions copyright arises upon fixation and does not need to be registered. Copyright owners have the exclusive statutory right to exercise control over copying and other exploitation of the works for a specific period of time, after which the work is said to enter the public domain. Uses which are covered under limitations and exceptions to copyright, such as fair use, do not require permission from the copyright owner. All other uses require permission and copyright owners can license or permanently transfer or assign their exclusive rights to others."

Now I don´t mind if a freeware game that I have created is being spread without my permission. For me that is the point of releasing it freeware, so people may share it with their friends or foes.

[Dualnames]

Okay, if there's a disclaimer, and what I see here is boredom, and tediousness (both of which are completely understandable), you should follow it. Let's take an example.

Cosmos Quest.

They are removed by the author if you included them without the will of the author..ecc.

[GarageGothic]

Now, in theory, I could rip all the AGS games from the gamesdb and add them into the nexus database. Would this be unethical? or even illegal?

Illegal? Depends on the license of each game. Unethical? Perhaps too strong a word, not to mention highly subjective, but from the point of view that the right to publish and to choose where to do so belongs to the author, it would be an infringement on their artistic if not legal rights.

Personally I think "impractical" would be a better argument. Unless Nexus becomes a direct overlay to the AGS database and any links are automatically mirrored when updated, it will make version control much more difficult. Also, there's the issue of tracking download count, and as others have pointed out, missing out on ad revenue that you relied on for partial funding.

The best solution as far as I'm concerned would be to get CJs approval to make Nexus an official AGS distribution platform and hook it up to the games db - providing game authors a checkbox when uploading their game to select if they want to make it available on Nexus. If that's not possible, make it an opt-in not opt-out process, anything else would be, not necessarily unethical, but a pain in the ass for all involved.

[Snake]

Sounds like a big clusterfuck to me, Calin. Just have the author's add their games themselves.