unfair bannings by AGS IRC ops

[Nacho]

My opinion: If we admit the level of "stupidity required" to get a ban in AGS forums as the "normal", then we must conclude that the level in IRC is too low.

Maniac was being, probably, a bit annoying, but sometimes IRC channel are quiet for hours, and a druk pal to makes jokes with can be quite refreshing... I've been in IRC and many times people start playing the fool for no other reason than boredom. Also, maybe there was a private chat between Maniac and Hajo we hadn' t news of, but if there wasn't... man, I don' t see a propper "behave propperly or I' ll ban you" warning in the chat.

Zoot mentioned the ops may ban drunk people.
Zoot says: "hajo please"
And Hajo says "Maniac, go to bed"

And that is quite lost in 17 lines of text... as said, not a very direct warning.

Also, if PMdee is telling the truth and the things went like this (fictional recreation):

Dez 04 03:46:37 PMDEE enters in #AGS
Dez 04 03:46:40 <Hajo> PMDEE! Yes or no?
Dez 04 03:46:53 <PMDEE> Eeer. No?
Dez 04 03:46:58 <Hajo>oh well, you don't have a choice. bye!"
Dez 04 03:57:12 <-- Hajo has kicked PMDEE from #AGS (Hajo)

Then... we have a clear abbuse of power. I am not going to take a position because sometimes, when some complains about other person, this first guy starts an "urban legend" which has nothing to see with the reality. I' ll wait till reading Hajo' s version. He allways seemed a good guy and I am sure his version will differ a lot from PMDEEs.

But:

If PMDEE' s version results to be completelly real, well, I don' t think that there's a need to make a mountain about this, Hajo was probably making a (IMO, failed) joke, there' s no need to crucify anyone... but then my opinion would move to: "Ops... relax a bit"

And well... Tuomas... We all know him. He is like this dirty old dog we rescue from the street. It smells bad, it pukes in your sofa and poos in your carpet, but you can't stop loving him. Ã, 

[Tuomas]

And on the other hand, they are people who PAY for this and keep it up for us, so they have a right to torture us once in a while.

[Helm]

You tell someone to go fuck himself while being 'drunk on the internet' and you consider that he had it coming to him because he banned you fast instead of warning you. Your double standard concerning good manners is amazing. So if you're drunk, it's okay to tell people to fuck off or something if they annoy you?

[vict0r]

Well, I can't speak for Matt here, but as I see it, he was having a good time on IRC, and noone told him he annoyed them!

So if you're drunk, it's okay to tell people to fuck off or something if they annoy you?

As far as I can see, this is not the issue. He was banned without explanation, and sent a PM to the person responsible showing his confusion for being banned, and anger. Personally, I don't see his language as excessive but explanatory. He could have asked nice too, but that would probably have gone unnoticed..

[dasjoe]

Also, if PMdee is telling the truth and the things went like this (fictional recreation):

Dez 04 03:46:37 PMDEE enters in #AGS
Dez 04 03:46:40 <Hajo> PMDEE! Yes or no?
Dez 04 03:46:53 <PMDEE> Eeer. No?
Dez 04 03:46:58 <Hajo>oh well, you don't have a choice. bye!"
Dez 04 03:57:12 <-- Hajo has kicked PMDEE from #AGS (Hajo)

Then... we have a clear abbuse of power. I am not going to take a position because sometimes, when some complains about other person, this first guy starts an "urban legend" which has nothing to see with the reality. I' ll wait till reading Hajo' s version. He allways seemed a good guy and I am sure his version will differ a lot from PMDEEs.

But:

If PMDEE' s version results to be completelly real, well, I don' t think that there's a need to make a mountain about this, Hajo was probably making a (IMO, failed) joke, there' s no need to crucify anyone... but then my opinion would move to: "Ops... relax a bit"

Dez 30 23:47:54 -->   Pmdee (pmdpmd@ags-FFB1713E.l4.c2.dsl.pol.co.uk) has joined #AGS
Dez 30 23:47:54 <Annie>   now they're just colluding
Dez 30 23:47:58 <Hajo>   oh crap
Dez 30 23:48:03 <Annie>   to carry on the illusion >:|
Dez 30 23:48:04 <Pmdee>   hello
Dez 30 23:48:05 <Hajo>   you can have one, too. do you want one, Pmdee?
Dez 30 23:48:13 <Pmdee>   what?
Dez 30 23:48:19 <Pablo>   They all must be very drunk...
Dez 30 23:48:20 <Hajo>   just YES or NO
Dez 30 23:48:23 <Annie>   maybe they're all drunk
Dez 30 23:48:24 <Annie>   yes ._.
Dez 30 23:48:26 <Annie>   wine @_@ i think
Dez 30 23:48:30 <Hajo>   i mean, yo don't have much of a choice anyway
Dez 30 23:48:33 <Pablo>   DON'T DRINK AND OP!
Dez 30 23:48:39 <Hajo>   says who?
Dez 30 23:48:44 <Pmdee>   NO, hajo
Dez 30 23:48:52 ---   Hajo sets ban on *!*pmdpmd@*.l4.c2.dsl.pol.co.uk
Dez 30 23:48:54 <Hajo>   too bad
Dez 30 23:49:10 <Annie>   he'll remove it soon enough -_-
Dez 30 23:49:14 <Pablo>   Yes
Dez 30 23:49:19 ---   Hajo removes voice from visy
Dez 30 23:49:44 <--   Pmdee has quit (Quit: )
Dez 30 23:49:48 ---   HajoTOOO is now known as someone
Dez 30 23:50:09 <Pablo>   See, you didn't even have to kick Pmdee. How convenient.
Dez 30 23:50:27 <Annie>   he's probably mad ._. people beat up on him too much
Dez 30 23:50:29 <Hajo>   yes, very nice. i will go down again in a bit

i was halfway making a joke, i didn't even kick him and wanted him to consider this a warning since he's been irritating.
as you may know wiintermeet has been at my house, i was lying on my bed at that time and went down to the others right after the last line and forgot unbanning him.

Dez 31 00:16:28 -->   Pmdee1_0 (Blight3220@ags-FFB1713E.l4.c2.dsl.pol.co.uk) has joined #AGS
Dez 31 00:16:32 <Pmdee1_0>   hey
Dez 31 00:16:40 <Pmdee1_0>   why did you just kick me?
Dez 31 00:16:43 <someone>   hi
Dez 31 00:16:49 <someone>   we.. didn't
Dez 31 00:16:55 <someone>   but thank you for reminding me
Dez 31 00:16:55 *   Brisby kicks Pmdee
Dez 31 00:17:03 ---   someone sets ban on *!*@ags-FFB1713E.l4.c2.dsl.pol.co.uk
Dez 31 00:17:07 <Inkoddi>   hooray!
Dez 31 00:17:10 <someone>   mwahaha
Dez 31 00:17:14 <--   Annie (annie@yay.its.me) has left #AGS
Dez 31 00:17:15 <Inkoddi>   you ares so evil
Dez 31 00:17:22 <someone>   3v1l b3cky
Dez 31 00:17:26 <someone>   :O

this ban may or may not have been set by me, i really don't remember. i know some people (at least becky and me) were sitting on fuzz' computer, online as someone in #ags.

Dez 31 02:20:07 ---   Hajo removes ban on *!*pmdpmd@*.l4.c2.dsl.pol.co.uk
Dez 31 02:20:07 ---   Hajo removes ban on *!*Poserkill@*.dhcp.inet.fi
[...]
Dez 31 02:25:38 ---   AGA removes ban on *!*@ags-FFB1713E.l4.c2.dsl.pol.co.uk


as you can see we unbanned pmdee later, which is not related to ManicMatt coming to #ags and complaining about his friends being banned. they would've gotten unbanned in the next few hours, anyway.

[ManicMatt]

You tell someone to go fuck himself while being 'drunk on the internet' and you consider that he had it coming to him because he banned you fast instead of warning you.

I think he had it coming because he treats people like shit, actually.

And Hajo's last post proves that, in my eyes.
So Hajo, does that mean you've banned Pmdee twice??

EDIT: Hey Hajo! Please by all means show us an excerpt of just prior to this where Pmdee was being "irritating". I'd like to see for myself.

[Tuomas]

Or just show why I was annoying and they'll believe you : Or please don't, I'm not proud of it, even though it werent' that bad. I think.

EDIT: AT ManicMatt: hey, I'm gay enough myself, I have nothing against homosexuals, otherwise I'd be a hypocrite.

[ManicMatt]

You were shouting "fags" and stuff at everyone, which was, for once, justifiable for banning.

(I really don't think you meant with ciggerettes, and I also think you were so drunk you don't really have a problem with gays or anything, right?)

[voh]

Childish behaviour, Hajo and consorts. Whether or not it's justifiable to you for paying for the server is irrelevant.

I've run an IRC channel for... *counts* 5 years now, and the only two bans I've ever imposed were on a guy who insisted on pasting rancid pornographic images, and a guy who went out of his finding out personal information about some other users, then either sent them stupid snail mail or started calling them after midnight to annoy the hell out of them.

Now THOSE are valid reasons for a ban.

And I always took the time to let them know why either before or after banning them (and never did they have to put effort into coercing me into an answer, I always gave it freely).

What I read in your logs, Hajo, which you seem to think prove that the bannees deserved it, mostly show... Not much at all.

Now I know why I've been advised to stay away from the AGS IRC

[vict0r]

voh beat me to it, but yeah! The logs only prove you banned them without any good reason..

[Ishmael]

People who have not gone to AGS IRC or it's predecessor for several years not gotten used to seeing Jake frequently kicked by Al_Ninio with the reason '' or somesuch, keep out of this. If the humorous practice of the ops and IRCops is not to your liking, find another server. The people own the server, and they can do what they want on it. If you have a complaint, direct it to the subject of the complaing directly and private, instead of breaking the rules and coming here whining about it.

#AGS is full of irritating people nowadays, Pmdee being one of the most talkative of them. Despite several warnings he's kept doing it. So he had it coming, and seeing he hasn't been glined nor permenently banned, there's no reason to start a riot of it.

[ManicMatt]

However Ishmael, it being the "AGS irc" would have led me to conclude that it is another representation of the AGS forum in chat form, however I can see it's nothing like. But if you're the AGS irc, surely then, even if they are paying to run it, they must not give AGS a bad name?

People get irritated by someone just becuase they don't like them and that gives them the right to ban them? If only it was that easy offline.

Also, I don't think I will bother returning to #AGS irc, although I've probably been banned today from moaning on here anyway....

[Ishmael]

However Ishmael, it being the "AGS irc" would have led me to conclude that it is another representation of the AGS forum in chat form, however I can see it's nothing like. But if you're the AGS irc, surely then, even if they are paying to run it, they must not give AGS a bad name?

AGS IRC is not a real-life representation of the forum. The same values or rules don't apply there; it has it's own set of rules.

People get irritated by someone just becuase they don't like them and that gives them the right to ban them? If only it was that easy offline.

You can ask them to stop, both in real life and on IRC. But on IRC the effect is different, and since you can't put any more seriousness to a few written words than into any other words you type in there, banning based on repeatedly failing to comply to such a simple request is in my opinion a reason good enough for banning the person for a short time.

[dasjoe]

i've clearly said why i banned matt for about 8 hours. not a good reason in your opinion? oh well, fair enough
i banned Pmdee for a mere 3 to 5 hours because he was stupidly annoying in #ags, but not right before i set the bans.

some stuff i found, i didn't read the whole log:
Nov 27 19:44:30 <Pmdee>   yay, my mum and sis are going away just now, anyone feel like skyping me?
Nov 27 19:44:40 <Pmdee>   I'll be free
Nov 27 19:44:55 <FSi|Dead>   you'd better make that hourgame
Nov 27 19:46:10 <Pmdee>   skpe me
Nov 27 19:46:15 <Pmdee>   skype me now
Nov 27 19:46:21 <Pmdee>   I command thee
Nov 27 19:46:34 <FSi|Dead>   i am the enslaver of the world
Nov 27 19:46:38 <FSi|Dead>   not i
Nov 27 19:46:41 <FSi|Dead>   not you
Nov 27 19:46:43 <FSi|Dead>   damn
Nov 27 19:46:53 <Pmdee>   then who?
Nov 27 19:47:05 <pslocum>   :O
Nov 27 19:47:07 <FSi|Dead>   hourgame???
Nov 27 19:47:10 <FSi|Dead>   eh?
Nov 27 19:47:39 <Pmdee>   if I'm not the enslaver and if you're not then who is?
Nov 27 19:48:01 <FSi|Dead>   my evil twin is
Nov 27 19:48:06 <FSi|Dead>   he killed me
Nov 27 19:48:12 <FSi|Dead>   and enslaved the world
Nov 27 19:49:13 <FSi|Dead>   and now i am typing these words from me grave trying to stop him
Nov 27 19:49:28 <Pmdee>   :O
Nov 27 19:51:08 <Pmdee>   excecratus, you here?
Nov 27 19:52:31 <Pmdee>   eek, why do I persist to spell his name wrong?
Nov 27 19:54:37 <Pmdee>   where did you go?
Nov 27 19:55:02 <Pmdee>   FSi*
Nov 27 19:55:29 <FSi|Dead>   me?
Nov 27 19:55:46 <FSi|Dead>   I'm writing announce for a site
Nov 27 19:55:48 <Pmdee>   YES
Nov 27 19:56:06 <Pmdee>   have you finished CW3 yet?
Nov 27 19:57:05 <FSi|Dead>   CW?
Nov 27 19:57:08 <FSi|Dead>   Oh, CW

Dez 27 22:42:05 <Pmdee>   anyone feel like a hour hour skype?
Dez 27 22:42:05 *   Jake dies from Ken related impact
Dez 27 22:42:05 <Pmdee>   a half hour skype*
Dez 27 22:42:05 <Pmdee>   ok... that's a no...
Dez 27 22:42:05 <Jake>   No, thank you, Mr Duggan
Dez 27 22:42:05 <Pmdee>   :O
Dez 27 22:42:05 *   Pmdee beats Jake with metal poles
Dez 27 22:42:05 <Jake>   I'd crush you.
Dez 27 22:42:05 <Pmdee>   suuure

Dez 28 19:19:05 <Pmdee>   ah...
Dez 28 19:19:06 <Pmdee>   I see...
Dez 28 19:19:19 <Pmdee>   maybe something more...
Dez 28 19:19:21 <Pmdee>   erm...
Dez 28 19:19:38 <Pmdee>   ack, I may aswell get on with me gamw
Dez 28 19:19:39 <Pmdee>   game\*

etc etc.

still, the bans were only a few hours. and voh, you probably wouldn't like #ags for the amount of trash people are talking about in there. just check the weekly stats from time to time: http://stats.americangirlscouts.org/

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

This isn't really even worth discussing, like so many things.  Hajo isn't unfair despite what many of you may think.  He's banned me before as a joke and I didn't freak out about it or make a post on the forums about how terrible my lot in life is.  The sad fact of life is that you behave exceptionally annoying on irc, pmdee.  There, I said it.  It's true.  You constantly spam with requests for hour games, for people to relieve your boredom for you, and you constantly whine about wanting to go to AGS meets.  Many ircers find this very bothersome after awhile, and if you cannot see this, if you cannot fix this, the fault lies with you.

As for Matt, I don't really have a problem with you in irc, but I presume from your reply to Hajo you were coherent enough to see he told roger to lift the ban in 8 hours, meaning it was just to get you to go elsewhere while you were drunk.

My final thought on this subject is simple:  if you dislike the ops in #ags or if you disagree with their rules then discuss the matter with them privately and respectfully or don't go to the channel.  But don't make an ass of yourself by creating a spectacle.  Thanks.

[vict0r]

Err... Hajo, again you fail to amaze me. The people talking to him were clearly as talkative as him.

But as you seem to persist on being assholes, I'll just leave you alone.

[Theme]

let's go to another irc server!
o/

[Nacho]

Well, I' ve read all the logs, and there is a bit of all. My "initial feelings" were correct, and there is more than what PMdee said.

*I still think that "essentially" PMdee is right and there have been some unfair bans* but well... it' s been more a joke and a little punishment to someone who has been annoying. Nothing to make a mountain about.

I am not too sure about Maniac... I miss a good warning before the ban, but they were just some hours, nothing really serious. I sense good feelings with Hajo and Maniac Ã,  Sure that both piss offs (the ban by the one, and the angry PM by the other) will be arranged with a e-shake of hands.

And Ishmael... Saying "they pay for it, they can ban whoever they want" has 0 rationalism. Redouce it to the absurd. If they start banning everytime someone enter, in less than a week no one will even attempt to enter.

[deletethisprofile]

well, ProgzMax, if they told me to shut up then I would...
and as for hourgames etc, I haven't mentioned them for Ã, a while now, so get your facts straight!
:/

and Hajo banning wasn't anything to do with any of what Progzmax said, Hajo was justÃ,  being a downright arse


plus if you hate me so badly, then why don't you put me on your ignore list?
or do you just find me entertaing?

[Mr Jake]

Has anyone noticed that the people that go to #AGS and suffer the grave abuse are on the OPs side and the people who don't are the ones whining?

Personally, I think pmdee is annoying and there are plenty of times I'd have liked to have seen him banned. I think everyone needs to stop taking it so seriously, if you don't like how #AGS is ran, don't go there.

Internet, serious business.