Vampires Suck - New Webcomic

[2ma2]

Yup, I'm at it again. Not too many episodes yet, but it's been around for oh such a short while. Updates every week. Atleast for now. Perhaps twice a week later on. Pity for you who desperatly wanted chapter 2 of Cogs And Robbers but what can I say..

http://www.riotamot.com/vampire

[Nacho]

Looks funny, and professional, great work Linus. Are this "clans" (Toreador, Nosferatu...) just from the roll game "masquerade" or are they common clans in the vampire culture? I am not very into this...

EDIT: Ouch, sorry, you mention that this clans come form the comic, sorry...

EDIT, EDIT: You misslinked White Wolf webpage, Linus.

[2ma2]

Mislinked?! Dammit! Thanks for the heads-up.

Oh, the Clans are from the RPG

[DGMacphee]

Visually, it's stunning. I'm always impressed when you draw, 2ma2.

The premise is also a good one. Get The Odd Couple and make them vampires. Simple and full of potential.

The gags need a little work though. One of my pet peeves with many webcomics is there tends to be too much talk when telling jokes.

Case in point: remove Garfield's text and the comic gets funnier.

Try less dialogue between characters. Expose more of the story and jokes with the pictures and action. And ninja-kick your jokes.

I think a good example of a well-drawn comic that has many good gags is Perry Bible Fellowship. Not much dialogue, only enough to let you know what's going on. The jokes lie not within the text but the action. It's more effective, I think.

Here are a few examples:

Food Fight
Chew Boy
Mittens
No One is Thirsty
Mimes
Freaking Vortex

What I like most is how the joke gets exposed. Each panel builds on the previous until the big "Ah-ha!" when you piece it together.

Your comic is a different style, obviously, but I think a good way to go about it to use less dialogue and more action in the pictures. The first half of the first comic does this quite well, actually. Each scene builds and builds, tension rising and then it's at the point where he's about to bite the victim... THEN... the light gets turned on and you see the "victim"!

But after that, it kinda fizzles to a second joke about Lucious being a pervert, but there's not much to build up to it. I'd have the second half as a new comic.

Regardless of my advice, I think your comic has some great potential to be one of the funniest, most well-drawn webcomics around the internet.

[ManicMatt]

I pretty much agree with them, although I think the swearing seems unnessescary and out of place. For some reason, the second I got to the 'f' word the comic lost it's professionalism.

[ildu]

I completely agree with Matt. Awesome visuals, though.

And I never get offended from swearing, only when it's obviously used in a weird or unnecessary place. This is why i hate swearing in games, because the devs just can't fit them in properly and end up overusing them. Just because Tony Montana said a few lines with cursewords in the movie doesn't mean he has to say 5 cursewords in every sentence in the game.

[DGMacphee]

I think the problem with swearing is it only works is it suits the character. If the character is an aggressive arsehole, yep, he's should swear. If it's a cute kitten with big saucer-shaped eyes, yep, the kitten should swear. (as a joke in extreme opposite to the character type).

But Lucius doesn't seem like the kinda character who'd swear. He seems too classy for that.

[LGM]

What happened to Cogs and Robbers? ((((((

[Helm]

breaking the fourth wall in the first comic? Nono

also, 'wild horses skullficking' is really a bad turn of phrase I think. Writing victorian-type dialogue which I guess will suit Lucius will be a challenge to you, as you're not a native speaker of english.

[Mordalles]

superb drawings, 2ma2! i love the style and colours you chose!

*jealousy list updated*

... why can't i draw like that...  :'(

[big brother]

I'm not sure he's breaking the fourth wall as much as greeting the inflatable doll. I guess the humor lies in the hypocrisy of Lucius' attitude.

[Nacho]

Which is the 4th wall? I am lost...

I am undercultured...

[Helm]

I'm not sure he's breaking the fourth wall as much as greeting the inflatable doll. I guess the humor lies in the hypocrisy of Lucius' attitude.

That's possible. It was absolutely not clear to me. if a panel showing Lucius, next one the doll, last one Lucius going 'well hello there...' was instead there, I'd have no problem reading that correctly.

[Scummbuddy]

I read it as him talking to the sextoy... perhaps it would be better if he was raising the hand of the toy as in to kiss the hand, or greet the girl.

Farlander - do you know what the fourth wall is and dont understand Helms point, or do you not know what the "fourth wall" is?

[buloght]

Really enoyed it 2ma2, great visuals!

[Nacho]

Scummbuddy, I have no clue of what "the fouth wall is"... I guess it' s showing too much of something too early, or something, but I am not sure of the real meaning.

[MrColossal]

when an adventure game character says "What a crazy adventure game this is!" that's breaking the forth wall. Reaching out to the viewer and speaking to them as if the character is aware of the real world.

also, MORE MORE MORE linus!

[Nacho]

Thanks Eric. 

[Kweepa]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_wall

There's no doubt he's talking to the doll - just look at the eyes. Also, the punchline would be awful otherwise.

Since you've posted this to everyone, I'd recommend breaking whatever ties it has to the RPG. It doesn't seem necessary, it could restrict storylines, and it could lead to in-jokes. Are these characters new or borrowed?

I agree with DG and Helm that the dialog is a problem. You should put as much work into the dialog as you do into the backgrounds. For example, in the first strip:
- "you just happen to reside in pitch black" is not a natural thing to say - perhaps "it seems you're lurking in the dark with a... a... blow up doll"
- "doesn't come natural" should be "doesn't come naturally" or "doesn't come easily"
- "sextoy" should be "sex toy"
- you've hyphenated beautiful and delicate right off the bat, which makes it hard to start reading
- many lines end with .. instead of ... (or preferably an m-dash, or just a full stop). Too many ellipses make the writing seem sloppy

I'd recommend hand-writing the dialog too. That squashed italic comic font is ugly, and it'll allow you to avoid hyphenating more easily. I'd probably hand draw the balloons rather than them being perfect ovals. And outline them perhaps, so that you can separate Lucius and Abel's speech when they overlap.

The artwork is of course beautiful. There are a couple of panels that don't work for me:
- Abel's expression is rather too blank when he's slouching off in shame
- Lucius' expression isn't quite perverted enough in the last panel
- also for the last panel I would change the tone of the background to pop the punchline, or draw in some background details

[EDIT] I just noticed this wasn't in the Critic's Lounge. Apologies for the heavy criticism.

[2ma2]

DG: I kinda like the heavy dialogue within webcomics. The strip medium often demands to cut down on text and deliver punchlines like clockwork. The webcomic medium however can work with changes in lenght and tempo, handing out new storytelling possebilities. I don't think I will cut down on dialogue, I aim for the pseudointellectual approach rather than visually appealing storytelling. But we'll see...

Manic, ildu, DG and Helm: The curseword is there to stand out. Lucius ain't the character to use such language, it is there to emphasize how much he doesn't want Abel to move up from the basement. It is far from Victorian language, deliberatly so.

Helm: Yes, he is greeting the doll. I realised I should have shown the doll next to Lucius to enhance readability. But by then, I had allready uploaded it for two days.

SteveMcCrea: I actually made it for my fellow WW geeks, and others interested in the Vampire mythos. I do however try to avoid injokes, or to explain them within the comic. It will not restrict storylines.

I do work more upon the dialogue than backgrounds. But ofcourse, being a non-native speaker, errors or bad usage of language will occur. It does here on the forums anyway. But with the hyphenation - it is there to better suit the speech bubbles, forming elliptic shapes of text. It is better to hyphenate than to have a poor text mass shape.

I tend to end lines with two dots rather than three. No real motivations for this other than two looks more appealing visually for me.

"Too many ellipses make the writing seem sloppy" Come again?

I lay the text digitally with bubbles so it looks good on screen. If I were to make it for print, I would probably handtext it with bubbles. I have no plans on altering my approach.

None offence taken, apology accepted..

[SSH]

I think that Steve meant "ellipsises", not "ellipses"

[Tuomas]

as in ...

I liked them both, enjoyable, and I can say I'm going to read them through whenever there'sa new one if I remember, why the heck not.

mh, btw, I gave someone I know the link and all he said was crappy html, what ever that means, but I liked the comic. I don't think it's important what people are saying, if I enjoy reading it, then there's nothing wrong... Now back to my turtles comics!

[Haddas]

2ma2. I have no gripes with your comic.

HOWEVER I find the layout of the actual site to be somewhat cumbersome if you use a larger resolution. Is there any way around it or will i just have to scroll around on a stamp? I see that this might be a somewhat trivial thing to "fix", but it just seems a bit silly.

http://content.imagesocket.com/images/layoutprob194.jpg

[m0ds]

Nice comic, Linus! Really really well drawn and quite funny, too!

[Helm]

The curseword is there to stand out. Lucius ain't the character to use such language, it is there to emphasize how much he doesn't want Abel to move up from the basement.

Do this better. 'Wild Horse Skullfucking' is just something that doesn't work for any other aim than to show you're awkward with english.

[DGMacphee]

DG: I kinda like the heavy dialogue within webcomics. The strip medium often demands to cut down on text and deliver punchlines like clockwork. The webcomic medium however can work with changes in lenght and tempo, handing out new storytelling possebilities. I don't think I will cut down on dialogue, I aim for the pseudointellectual approach rather than visually appealing storytelling. But we'll see...

I'm not too sure how jokes about vampires fucking blow-up dolls and "Wild Horse Skullfucking" constitute pseudointellectual. Then again, I don't read much Anne Rice.

But I'm not sure if it's just the strip medium that demands it as such, but I think humour in general works better when it's tight. And if you go for a longer set-up, the pay-off has to be bigger.

Here's a great example of a comic from SexyLosers (NSFW) with a long set-up and a great pay-off.

Manic, ildu, DG and Helm: The curseword is there to stand out. Lucius ain't the character to use such language, it is there to emphasize how much he doesn't want Abel to move up from the basement. It is far from Victorian language, deliberatly so.

But the problem is we don't know these characters well enough to understand why Lucius is so against Abel moving from the basement that he'd resort to such potty talk. It just seems like the sort of phrase used to setup a joke you read in 99% of webcomics. The kind of joke where one character answers another character in a mean way causing the other to reply, "You could have just said 'No'."

I prefer comics with surprising endings/punchlines that knock the shit out of my guts. I like surprises. I like my expectations confounded.

But it is your comic. So best to go with what makes you feel comfortable. Regardless of what I say, it has a lot of potential and is impressively drawn.

[Scummbuddy]

I'm not too sure how jokes about vampires fucking blow-up dolls and "Wild Horse Skullfucking" constitute pseudointellectual. Then again, I don't read much Anne Rice.

The idea was that the vampire was stalking its prey, in this case, a sex toy... it could have been a mannequin, but the vampire would be trying out its neck biting abilites, not having sex with it.

Oh, and Sexy Losers has been a favorite of mine for quite some years too.

[DGMacphee]

I was talking about Lucius at the end of the strip. Not Abel stalking the "prey".

I can only assume Lucius wanted to have some sex with the inflatable doll. Unless he was just saying "hello there" to it and NOTHING ELSE.

[Scummbuddy]

To be honest, I didn't read the info about the strip, so I assumed that the younger of the two wasn't a vampire, so, nevermind then.

[rharpe]

The drawings are top notch! But the humor is completely dry. Humor is difficult to master because everyone has a different take on it. American humor versus British humor are completely different. Some people like more adult humor, some like slapstick, and others like witty antics.

You describe the characters in one way, but they act different from that description. 

[LGM]

Yeesh, everyone's a critic!

I personally think it's looking great. And it can only get better. Good luck, 2ma2. I'll be reading.

[Kweepa]

I think that Steve meant "ellipsises", not "ellipses"

Yes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis
Note the usage.

[Helm]

Yeesh, everyone's a critic!

I think Linus would agree he benefits more from this than from ass-patting, but he can step in and tell me otherwise if he wants.

[LGM]

Well, right, it's just I notice everyone has something to say. This isn't the critics lounge, and he wasn't asking for crit specifically...

I dunno. You don't go to a museum, look at the Picasso's work and say "Well... I think Picasso should've drawn the people more anatomically correct! The way he does it makes no sense!"

Oh well. I know the intentions are good, but where are the compliments?!

[DGMacphee]

Yes, where are the compliments, guys? I mean, apart from all the bits where everyone has said "wow, linus, that is visually stunning!" and "wow, vampires! good idea!" -- if we ignore all those bits, yeah, where are the fucking compliments??

And yeah, I know this isn't the Critics Lounge and 2ma2 wasn't asking for feedback, but what else do you expect when you post something like that here? For people to just go, "Wow, a comic. Good luck with that." and leave it at that?

Besides, I don't think anyone here has said "ur comic sux, stop drawing dood" -- In fact, just the opposite, we've all encouraged Linus to continue with it, regardless of what constructive criticism we offer. Like I said, it's got a lot of potential.

[ManicMatt]

Aye DGMacphee, and look, I had a hidden-ish compliment there:

For some reason, the second I got to the 'f' word the comic lost it's professionalism.

See I was saying it looks professional! 

[LGM]

Now you guys are critiquing what I am saying!!! WHERE DOES IT END?!?!?!  >:|

Okay, seriously. I don't care. I see comments, 2ma2 has probably taken something from everything said here... Except maybe this post. So I'll stop here.

[veryweirdguy]

DGMacphee, I give your criticism of LGM's comments a C- as it does not have enough 80s pop culture-type references. Maybe you should work on your critiquing a bit more at home?

[2ma2]

Helm: But I am awkward with english. And strangely enough, that sentence proved efficient with my fellow swedish readers. Could it be national specified humour?

DG: I said pseudo- didn't I?  About not knowing the character, come to think about it now, this wanders back into knowledge about the Clans and their specific traits. I guess I failed in maintaining a lesser need for WoD knowledge in that. Also, noone is sexing up the doll, they're both stalking their prey.

rharpe: I describe them differently than protraying them? Could you give me examples. I find that quite troublesome.

Also, I do appreaciate everyones criticism. Comics are like every other medium. Easy to learn, difficult to master. Although, Helm, "Do it better" is not that good of a tip.  Either way, I get enough of praise elsewhere. Slay away.

[Chrille]

I love the art and the first comic was great though it would perhaps work even better had Lucius not said anything, instead just wearing that look on his face.

I think the third comic would be much funnier had it just ended with the second to last panel. It is as though the punchline is him calling her a silly bitch. The slapstick alone would work great as end to that lengthy buildup.

[DGMacphee]

Although I agree with Chrille about the second to last panel, I think the comic is very much finding its legs now. The third comic is an improvement x 10 over the first two. Good work!

[SSH]

I agree with DG and Chrille. The problem is making it clear, though, that there is a glass door BEFORE the slapstick punchline. Perhaps the vampire could try sliding the glass door and find it locked, or press his own face against it, or wipe some condensation from it or something...

[Helm]

Yeah, I guess you have to consider saying less and leaving more to be understood by showing.

I don't know about Swedish readers. I know that when you draw something even vaguely funny, there'll be people that will be falling off of their seats bellyachin'. I'm just saying what it does or doesn't do for me. I'm sure this comic will have a good following without you giving any thought at writing the material better, if that's what you need, I'm sure the only thing you need to do now is just make this steadily for a while until a lot of people pick it up. If you want to make it better, I'd reconsider the usage of profanity until it means something more than 'extreme disapproval' (wild horses skullfucking, silly bitch). I think generally this seems much more european than american, and this americanism with swearing every time something unfortunate happens just doesn't mesh well.

I've explored my critique more than just telling you to 'make it better', Linus, on every post of mine.

[Kweepa]

and this americanism with swearing every time something unfortunate happens just doesn't mesh well.

I don't think that's an Americanism so much as a European-speaking-English-ism.

I disagree with SSH's concern about the glass door. I think spelling it out is just going to ruin the joke (like the speech).

[Kweepa]

It is better to hyphenate than to have a poor text mass shape.

Here's (roughly) what I would do with this strip's lettering:

[Evil]

I LOVE Steve's idea. The hyphenated/line broke words take a lot away. Speech and thought bubble shapes can add a lot to frames too. Your characters and coloring are very dynamic, why ruin it with crappy bubbles?

[Andail]

Love the gfx, top notch. The first comic was far the best imo. The anti-climax with the inflatable doll worked well, as well as the punch-line.
I think you need to vary the style of humour a bit, though. Right now all of them seem to be based on the sudden switch to very coarse language...I mean, soon you'll expect him to say something outrageous, and then the homour won't work at all.

EDIT:
Through DG's link I found this
http://web.archive.org/web/20050303170835/http://castlezzt.net/
It's mostly a pile of psychedelic junk, but there are a few gems. The first panels with Garfield have been deprived of Garfield's responses, just to make Jon appear even more pathetic and mentally challenged.
Also, halfway down you'll find SITUATION 81 which is quite hilarious imo.
The rest probably needs a sort of acquired taste.

[2ma2]

I guess the most gripes lie within the usage of coarse language. I dunno, it is not as I aim for this nor do I think it will show in following editions. Perhaps I aim for the shock value, but I doubt it. Rather the contrast between a Victorian entity and outrageous language.

About the hyphenation, even though it seemingly works, your bubble has alot of space and a single word (me) being alone in the last line. I don't know if it is my typographical education acting up, but that is simply a no no if it can be avoided.

Helm, you have often brought up problems with little or no suggestions on improvements. Unless the advice is simply to never repeat the problem at hand.

Chrille, DG and SSH: I kinda like the idea of delivering a punchlines and linger on to it some more time. As the punchline in the first comic is when turning on the lights, halfway through the comic. The last panel is not there to act as the "funny part", the "funny part" is allready delivered.

[Helm]

As far as the fourth wall breakage, yes, never to do it again would be the point, but I was mistaken there as you didn't break the fourth wall, I misread. And I suggested what could be done to fix the misreading, by alternating between blow-up doll and Lucius.

About the language, I have nothing to suggest besides to not use such language unless it's appropriate. What DG said.

Those were all my points about your comic, which I sincerely hope goes well. From there and on, you've offered counter-arguments to my points, which I shouldnt really have to contest though I tried. If you feel my criticism was not constructive enough, I think that's an unfounded impression.

I adore the visuals. I like the concept on the bare level, like DG said. I find the ties to White Wolf gaming (as if the victorian debutante and the nosferatu are their property) connection superfluous and contributing nothing of interest (and I know my RPGs) to this strip. If someone without any knowledge of the game can't read this and enjoy it, then I think you're narrowing your target audience more than you have to. This has not happened yet! I hope it doesn't in the future.

You need to pay special attention to how this is written, which seems to be the resonant critique in this thread, and the way you do this, is by paying special attention. I can't offer any more constructive hints. Read books, see how Victorian-era gentlemen insulted each other. Oscar Wilde will be of interest to you, as well as this book I found in AGA's house of a guy that basically spent his whole life insulting people in correspondence and publications in a very erudite way.

[Kweepa]

About the hyphenation, even though it seemingly works, your bubble has alot of space and a single word (me) being alone in the last line. I don't know if it is my typographical education acting up, but that is simply a no no if it can be avoided.

Orphaned words are perfectly normal and natural in comic lettering. Hyphenated words are not. You may be able to find one or two exceptions, but I've been reading comics for 33 years and in my experience hyphens are ugly.
http://www.balloontales.com/tips/arrangement/index.html

I can't find any explanation for the acceptance of orphans (either online or in Scott McCloud's books), so I'll just have to provide my own. In typesetting, orphans are bad because the eye travels a long way, only to find a single word to complete a thought. In typical comic bubbles, each line is short anyway (two to four words) and the eye doesn't have to travel far, so it's not jarring.

As for hyphens being bad, they are accepted in typesetting (and generally only in narrow columns) because they facilitate equal line widths without undue stretching or compression. In balloons, equal line widths are unnecessary and often unwanted.

Balloons are often shaped to fit the text, or in extreme cases, the text is rewritten to fit a balloon. The medium is the message.

Here's some interesting articles on lettering:
http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/panel/107521985758362.htm
http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=229

[2ma2]

Helm: I usually have problems with the writing, so trying to emulate Victorian wit may prove to be impossible. But I'll definatly try.

Steve: I stand corrected. But I also find the word placements to be of bigger importance within the bubbles. The "Glass door, you silly bitch" was fought with for quite some time since the placements were ideal with "Glass [break] door, you [break] silly bitch". But that placement read wrong within the context. Oh well, bubbles are a mystery on it's own.

[FieryPhoenix]

The art work is nice- but the text did nothing for me.  However- the Radiohead "reference" was groovy.  I think I'll stick with Vampirella and EmilyStrange.