It's one thing to form an opinion about something, and another thing to be able to accept it. Even if the opinion is like "F%^ you asshole", the response should never be of equal level, unless we can't take it.
Why when someone forms an opinion of something we worked on/made we get so jumpy? Even if we say his wrong?
Example:
You make a red headed female sprite. If one would say he hates you drawing blonde hair female sprites, why would you bother reacting if he was wrong in the first place?
I myself have posted many times on the critic lounge and initially a great number of them proved to have turned out pretty wrong for me. I expected something like "Great art",or "It looks great don't change a thing". Only when I decided to actually post something and via others advice to improve it, I realized what a great thing this is.
Not just referring to the critics lounge, but why do sometimes people expect only to be praised? Where's the good in that? When did always winning made a man improve?
Why do we connect effort to result?
Some people can sprite without much effort, does that mean they're not good? Why do we never protest when our work is overrated?
[/rant]
Sorry for the rant.
-edit- InCreator's got you covered.
Lolwut?
As a long-time CL "resident", all I can say that there's people dumber than/not so good as you, and you must know it.
Example: You post something. Everyone tries to find a point to pick on.
Now, some people really have skill and eye to actually help you improve or point out shortcomings, some don't. If I'd made every suggested change in a background I posted, I would end up with bg that is never ready and which I don't recognize anymore.
Also, drawing and drawing for example are two different things.
You can draw a pretty flower and be super-detailed about it or simply mspaint an awesome robot. Guess which one gets more praise?
@Dual
What does "Why do we never protest when our work is overrated?" mean?
That the artist should turn away flattery? Curious.
Because a lot of people are fragile and use the critics lounge and indeed, the internet as a place to get validation, not criticism.
There also seems to be a trend of people being allowed to choose what kind of feedback they get.
On DevArt for instance you can upload an image and select that you only want positive comments and that's absurd.
As far as i'm concerned *everything* is up for criticism at *all times* providing the author is always allowed to defend against the criticism. If they are unable to do so then perhaps the criticism was valid..
I agree 100% with Calin. I figure that before you put something up on the internet, you have to be prepared to face the consequences. There's many different ways to prepare for this, but my coping mechanism is to convince myself that what I made is totally crap. Thus, if people like it, my expectations have been exceeded; if they don't, they agree with me. But that's just my opinion.
I third what Calin said.
Quote from: Calin Leafshade on Mon 28/06/2010 17:54:15
On DevArt for instance you can upload an image and select that you only want positive comments and that's absurd.
Actually there isn't such a specific "I only want positive comments" option in DeviantArt as I know, but dA allows artists to hide comments or reject critiques if they find the critiques unfair, which means this option does exist indirectly.
I have witnessed many popular, talented deviants, who looked like nice people at first sight, can call you "jealous cocksucker bitches" or scold you not to teach how to teach them do their works just due to your constructive, kind comments.
I think, but can't remember who it was...
A brilliant mind on this very forum once said something along the lines of:
Do not put your work on the internet if you want nothing but praise. Show it to your mother who will tell you it's "nice", then go have a glass of milk and take a nap.
There's a reason it's called the Critic's Lounge and not the Praise Parlour.
I haven't posted anything in there for way too long, but whenever I have I've done so because I've wanted help, not to show off my skills (because I have none). I've learnt quite a bit from the CL, not just on anything I might have posted, but mainly from reading people's crit and comments on other peoples work. My favourite threads are the one's where people go out of their way to do paint-overs or use examples to explain their suggested improvements. That kind of help is priceless.
I know I've been guilty of this in the past, but I really consider comments like "Wow that's really good!" as off-topic unless they're accompanied by a "but". You can't learn anything new from being told that.
As far as my experience with the critic's lounge, I feel there isn't enough input from people. At least from my threads the feedback was nice and helpful, but it was very few in numbers. So at times I felt like I was spamming my own thread with updated versions. The thing is that I really want someone to take apart what I've made, and show me what I have done wrong, but I never seem to receive that kind of criticism. So to be honest I dunno how I would react to some hate comments, but I'm welcoming them. As long as the comments are specific.
Quote from: IndieBoy on Mon 28/06/2010 22:52:31
I feel there isn't enough input from people.
I think this is because AGS isn't a large community, and as graphics are just a part of AGS, there isn't a great number of good artist to give advice. Sure, we all draw (more or less), but how many of us are good enough to give good advice?
As for the thread topic question, I think some people don't take critique well because they see it as a personal attack. Why? Well, you're saying they suck, some may get offended.
But hey, you're not saying they suck! You are saying their work sucks! Well, if they get upset, point out this difference, maybe it will help. =)
That's all a bit strange to hear. I find that if someone actually chooses to comment on something on the Internet, generally that person is incredibly supportive. Usually, people omit including any sort of criticism whatsoever, which I'm not sure if it is that great.
I'd say, a far bigger problem than surviving criticism for your work is getting a larger number of people to evaluate it.
EDIT: I see IndieBoy already brought up this subject.
The trend for Critiquing as a whole seems to be that extreme opinions are the only ones expressed, where people who are being supportive show support, and people who want to be arses show their arses.
Personally, I don';t mind the kind of Critique that says "Good stuff!", as I know I'm bad at whatever it is I'm getting critique on, and so I'm just as happy to have people say that the picture/whatever seems like "Good stuff!". Try and think of it like this: I hate realism in art, as it's boring, and usually does a bad job of expressing anything, let alone the artists thoughts(except that the particular scene shown can be used for expression).
Technique can go to hell, as far as I'm concerned. If good technique can help make nice art, that's fine, but I think there are times when people have a little too much faith in it's intrinsic value.
Does any of that make any sense?
I can't remember where, but there is a proverb somewhere that says something like "It takes ten honest compliments to make up for one insult." Obviously this isn't meant for anyone in particular, I'm bringing this up because of what Dual said.
QuoteNot just referring to the critics lounge, but why do sometimes people expect only to be praised?
Bottom line, people in general want affirmation. The quality of the affirmation is a different matter. Of course comments like "That's really good!" don't really get anyone anywhere, (don't get me wrong, I appreciate any comment as much as the next person) even if the statement is an honest one. But then you get into picking apart the finer details, which relates to something I've always wondered:
What makes a person qualified enough to critique another's work? In school/at work it's one thing, through the forums is another. I've been looking through CL long before I even had my original account, but I never bothered posting because I figured there was always someone else who could provide better advice. I don't expect there to be a single answer to this, because everyone has their own standard. Besides, it's more of a rhetorical question: Would you reject another person's advice because you see them as being less skilled, even if they might be right? I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm sure some people don't say as much for this reason. It might even be the reason there aren't more in-depth critiques.
This is something that came up with Harg earlier.. simply put "who is qualified to pass judgment on another's work?"
The answer is everyone.
If you put something out their for public consumption it is the public who will judge it and they have every right to do so... it doesnt mean you have to listento it though.
Criticism is always helpful, even if its the most banal and stupid comment, because it tells you something about their perception of what you've done.
I usually only critique if the work interests me, it's overall pleasing and shows obvious areas needing improvement.
I don't mind criticism at all, just as long as it's constructive. For example, something like the player comment I had for Road Racer in the database can really stab a knife in your back -- at least the ending sentence of that post does. The player obviously didn't know much about programming either, since he says "I suddenly realised that AGS is not a suitable engine for racing games.". The only reasons why that game didn't flow smoothly like it should is because I was inexperienced with rotation, acceleration, collision, etc. AGS did not hold me back, my knowledge did.
Now the criticism you got Calin, with McCarthy, I'm impressed you're still here making games and smiling. If only Harg was capable of carrying half of the criticism you had to carry. Overall it was definitely great constructive criticism, but sometimes even that, and the quantity of it, can really affect someone and their mood for making games. Especially for what was just a free game.
How dare you critique my inability to be critiqued? 8)
In some cases people want to believe they are a talented programmer, artist, or programmer/artist and amongst their friends and family what they produce is probably considered pretty cool. I think what easily offended folks don't grasp is that on this board their work is held to a different standard.
And yea, I think just saying someone's game, art, or whatever is "crap" is useless without explaining why. In my short time on here I haven't seen much mean-spirited criticism like that; most appears to come from the "just trying to help" camp.
You don't have to be a artist in order to critique art. Or any subject for that matter. All you need to be able to do is simply like art and thus give your honest opinion on what looks good, what doesn't, and what could use improvement then politely tell them. Pure praise and pure spite will never help anyone improve. Constructive Criticism is the keyword here. But not everyone is the same whether it is giving or receiving criticism. If someone gives you spiteful remarks just thank them sarcastically and move on to the next one.
Quote from: ddq on Mon 28/06/2010 18:03:01
I agree 100% with Calin. I figure that before you put something up on the internet, you have to be prepared to face the consequences.
I see this other way.
If you show stuff to your mother and friends, you have very limited feedback, since it's really a small group. If your friends are - say - all professional artists - you pretty much know what you'll get.
On the
internet, for every person who finds your skills low, there's
thousands who find whatever you do absolutely amazing. That's because artists (any kind) and talented people are
rare!
Now, AGS community is mostly a collection of artists, talented people, etc so harsher criticism is more likely here.
Still, know your limit! There's always someone who can do better. You might be used to draw better than your mother and any of friends, but this
is the internet. So perfectionism is more of an obstacle than helpful. You cannot beat every race, y'know. There's always some critique that's out of your league to address. I will never, ever make such realistic lighting as loominous suggests or make as cutesy sprites as ProgZmax. So what? That doesn't mean I'm not trying my best!
There's no intrinsic need or benefit to being a prick about your thoughts unless it's to be a prick and put someone down, fullstop.
I strongly believe that overwhelmingly negative, abusive criticism exists only to piss someone off and should be openly discouraged. However, I also think that gushing over another person and completely ignoring any shortcomings you may see in their work as disingenuous and harmful to the person's ego over whom you shower compliments.
It's a bit of an icy road, but I think it's perfectly possible and reasonable for people to take into account the feelings of the person they are addressing before they write a shitstorm about how bad something they made is. Taking into account how you would feel (and anyone who says they enjoy being told their work is garbage and they should die is a liar so don't even bother) if your words were leveled at you before you press that post button is probably the single most important part of giving fair and reasonable critique and is something I always go by, personally.
With friends especially we want to validate them and (unless you're some weird sadist) raise them up rather than tear them down, so the inclination is there to not always be truthful when they show you something they made. I can understand why many people do this and I don't fault them for it but ultimately it's the friend that suffers when they show the same thing to a classmate or someone neutral and receive a less than glowing response.
So just be wary of straying into Pick-Apart Prick or Pointless Praise territory and you'll find friends and strangers alike able to cope with your feedback in a meaningful way.
Slightly off-topic, but on a similar note. A few years ago I used to write quite a lot, but I was rubbish. I used to show my stuff to a select few friends and they would always say how great it was. I got a bit suspicious, because although I'm a modest perseon, they were being FAR too nice. So I tested one of them. I wrote a deliberately rubbish peice of crap and showed it to my mate... he STILL told me it was good... it was around that time I stopped showing my work to friends and tried to get as much neutral feedback as possible.
Yes some people on these boards are friends, and you don't want to let your friends be hurt in the long run. If your friend had a BO problem, and he was really a friend, you'd tell him so as not to let him go on being 'the smelly one' and get picked on by others... Well I'd hope so anyway...
Heheh....I'd find it to be the hardest thing ever (right behind deliberately writing something incredible) to deliberately write rubbish. What does one do? It isn't about spelling or grammar, because most people usually point that out. So...what?
/me plans out the story of a verbose amnesiac rapist who goes on a quest to eat fruit
Quest for [the] Glory [Hole]: So You Want To Eat a Mango?
Its hard to find a good friend who can tear into your work, but its possible. Its just easier to pull a random person off the street.
The best friends I have found for good critique are the ones I look up to in a particular subject, be it art or music or writing. Sometimes asking Joe Nobody about perspective or proper use of adjectives isn't going to yield even remotely positive results; you should look for and address people who you know are educated in the subject of interest. Of course, not everyone has such a 'friend', but I'm sure all of us have at least one person we accept at being particularly knowledgeable in a given subject. They don't necessarily need to be friends, either -- places like pixeljoint allow you to assess the skill of an artist relative to your own concepts of 'what is good' and some of them I'm sure would provide help and pointers for improvement. I don't really know of any specific websites dedicated to musicians recording tracks for the sake of critique but there's probably a few out there, and of course there are many, many writer-centric sites that perform the same function as pixeljoint or the CL. I think if you're serious about wanting to improve, sites like those are a step in the right direction.