this is the inside ofÃ, the church i posted days before, critics please
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/iglesia8.jpg)
Ongi etorri!
Your renders seem pretty good to me. They certainly look great to an untrained (in terms of 3d modelling) guy. One thing I would suggest, though, if you want to use these in a game, is where the characters are going to walk and what objects can be clicked on. Some of these views are very "far away" for an adventure game.
Very good render. I like it very much.
From a guy who knows nothing of rendering: It's perfect but there seems to be a lot of dusty in...
How does the floating Por Txarly fit into the game?
It's too bad it's in there ... 'cause I was gonna use this image on my website, but I can't with that title in there.
He edited that in, cause a second ago, it wasn't there. But the text is just a watermark for the image, I would guess.
It's ok, I already cropped out the stained glass window part so I can include it in the clipart pack I sell. Thanks!
I just renamned myself Txarly and sold it uncropped.
Seriously though, it's a good rendering. I'd say it's a bit too tidy and clean, and also the light beams are too prominent.
I always think scenes like this could benifite greatly from a photoshop paintover once the rendering is finished, could add some 'human' touches to what can sometimes appear sterile and lifeless renders (these dont look that way btw.)
the same render but in night scene
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/iglesia5.jpg)
Is this game meant to be a thriller/horror? Cause if I was walking around in a dark church and saw that "por txarly" floating in the air, I would totally crap my pants....
Only crit I would give would be to make that watermark bigger, it's way to small as is...
On day render, add an ambient light to the scene. Weak, but enough to simulate light reflecting from objects, because the amount of light seen in windows... well, I just don't believe that it lights church only via beam and won't spread on collisions. The wall with windows should also be much more visible and not so dark.
-or-
you could remove whole church thingy and leave only watermark. Make it bigger, yes, and maybe duplicate few times.
If you're too dumb to get it yet, then...
Spoiler
Using watermark in AGSforums is insult to other members! How do you explain people to be good enough to help you, but not good enough to trust with your image?! BTW, since you're new, here's a fact: I don't recall ever anyone stealing someone's graphics. If there was someone, he'd surely lose a place in the community, so stop this nonsense if you want your images to be taken seriously (and get less sarcastic replies).Also, there's superb artists here, and no-one uses watermarks. Your usage tells other that 'oh, i'm so damn great, keep hands off my work, you bunch of talentless thieves'. This is definetly not good way to show yourself.
In reguards to watermarks: Signatures are great idea, and they are not obtrusive. Dan Clark is a perfect example. He has a great, simple signature, and he's also on the top of the "To Steal From" list. :)
As for the picture, the layout is very nice. The lights are too bright in my opnion. The church is big and made of stone and I imagine it would be very cold. Blue lighting would help get that feeling across. Or maybe a blue ambient light with yellow/orange wall lights?
Increator is right!
Spoiler
Honestly I think that this is a wonderfull community and anyway if you're willing to e-mail an image to me to use it in my desktop (which I didn't ask, but thank you), I could very well steal it and use it or even better post it here just to piss you off. I wouldn't worry so much about that. If you want make a signature but smaller, easthetique wise
Quote from: Squinky on Tue 15/11/2005 23:21:31
Is this game meant to be a thriller/horror? Cause if I was walking around in a dark church and saw that "por txarly" floating in the air, I would totally crap my pants....
Ha!
Its a nice render, personally I prefer the first one - because you can see the stained glass windows, but obviously the lighting isn't right. The second one is nice, but now we've lost any light on the windows, which is a shame.
mods, what do you see in the light that is wrong, may i use more volume to the lights?
In the first scene, the light beams from the windows cross. That wouldn't happen in real life - the beams are from the sun, so they should all be parallel.
It's a nice render, if a little empty. I realise that's how a church usually is, but it doesn't help your image to have a huge empty volume there. (Maybe that's why you put in that huge floating "Por Txarly"?)
For a game you really only need the lower half of the image. The second scene shows that.
I also think the light would have some sort of colour upon entry due to the stain glass, although ive never really studied the stuff so i could be wrong.
Well, if the windows are painted in very homogenous, strong colours, they would create coloured light. If there are plenty of mixed colours, or colours like brown or olive green, there wouldn't be much difference.
Either way, the background would gain from having most of those beams removed. Just a little haze beside the windows would do.
But most importantly, you need to add details and dirt and stuff. It's way too empty and, well, artifcial looking.
Quote from: DanClarke on Wed 16/11/2005 17:38:49
I also think the light would have some sort of colour upon entry due to the stain glass, although ive never really studied the stuff so i could be wrong.
Even if realistically this does not occur ( I do not know if it does or not ) you should probably go ahead and do it because it would look awesome. And awesome > reality. LENS FLARE!!
dont listen to the people here, txarly. theyre just trying to sound clever. its really great. i wish i could do something like that in 3d.
if u really want some good advice on how to improve ure backgrounds, i would advise going to places like www.cgtalk.com. seriously, there the people's crits actually make sense. and theyre much nicer. good advice around here is very rare. ;)
I, for one, like the text in the middle. It can be used to a great extent to create great story elements, like the hero crawling through it from one wall to the other (to climb out on the window); one could also think of the priests hanging some wet clothes on it or as a banner for advertising. So it's good, you should leave it, and probably include it on every game screen, since there they can definitely be grabbed and used elsewhere. If you leave it, though, consider adding appropriate shadows and reflections to it.
On the less-important matter of the rendering, adding some dirt, some more detail (like Bibles laying on some seats, cushions, etc.) would add a lot more reality to the picture. You could try using bump maps for the walls (maybe you use one even now, but it's not very strong; the walls look a bit flat.)
I don't think the lighting is bad; it may not be completely realistic, but it looks good enough to me.
Please, stop the jokes about the "Por Txarly"... The first 3 or 4 were funny, now you're just giving a bad image for a newcomer. The image is better than 75 % of the renders I've seen here. Keep with the good work.
Agur. ;)
haha i must admit i enjoyed humour in replies for this topic sorry for offtopic addition.
as for church it looks nice altho daytime church has some strange bluriness asif caused by dust in the air or something.
regards.
I don't think the sunlight should come through the window left of the stained glass... Since the walls are right angles, and the sun can only be on one side of it, the light can't go through both that intensely.
Other than that, pretty neat render.
thank you for the link Mordalles, it's an interesting place.
Quote from: Mordalles on Wed 16/11/2005 20:06:16
dont listen to the people here, txarly. theyre just trying to sound clever. its really great. i wish i could do something like that in 3d.
if you really want some good advice on how to improve ure backgrounds, i would advise going to places like www.cgtalk.com. seriously, there the people's crits actually make sense. and theyre much nicer. good advice around here is very rare. ;)
Well that's an interesting attitude. I hope you're not serious
I do hope that wink means you are joking, because that is the WORST thing I have ever heard here, by far.
Txarly: I won't make a silly joke about the text in your picture, though you should delete it. Your renderings are very good and I hope the people here with their jokes didn't make you want not to send any more of them here. I'd really want to see more of your work.
Mordalles: I second the couple of previous posts...
Quote from: Mordalles on Wed 16/11/2005 20:06:16
good advice around here is very rare.
That is... so not true. So not true...
I vote we kick Mord out of the forums. For shame, man. Shame.
As for the picture, the first thing that stood out for me was the benches. They're all -exactly- alike and it looks very sterile and strange. This is exactly where a paint over can come in handy, to give it some life.
Really, i never thought that a watermark could generate more critics than the picture, specially when in other forums the images that people post are automatically watermarked.
In the other hand, i don't think that Mordalles must be kicked for his opinions, because i think this is the object of a forum, isn't it?
On the daylight version - The sun seems to be coming through the window at TWO different angles. If your game takes place on earth, thus only having ONE sun, I suggest you remove one set of the 'god rays'.
On the night version - There seems to be NO outside light source whatsoever. Even on a cloudy day, the moon does shine a little bit of light, so make the subletly apparent through the windows.
Quotei don't think that Mordalles must be kicked for his opinions, because i think this is the object of a forum, isn't it?
they are just kidding friend, i dont understand how come you havent noticed it. they mocked the watermark coz there is almost no chance that someone will actually steal your rendering etc. this is critics lounge no e-bay and work here isnt really Picasso or Rembrant (altho some ppl mite resent that ;D) so no need to mark your work with 100X100 watermarks espec if you want ppl to comment some details you got there.
ppl here are friendly and lots have really good sense of humour as i noticed- dont take seriously some of the comments. at least not ones that arent about art/criticism/comments
cheers
Txarly, I agree that the watermark got too much attention. We're just not used to it. Also, most forums probably put a little copyright line or something, I doubt that they put a watermark in the middle of every contributed image.
Nevertheless; if you can look away from that piece of criticism, there is still much c&c that makes great sense. All of the comments given in this thread have been pertinent and relevant.
Mordalles didn't just vent an opinion, he insulted us and the entire forum.
Feel free to submit your picture to the forum Mordalles mentioned. If you get this much attention, which I doubt, they will probably say the same:
* fix lighting
* add details
* try to fix the sterile and tidy feeling by adding handmade textures, "dirt" and other artifacts.
* get rid of the watermark
If they don't say this, they won't have provided very useful c&c.
Another thing about the benches. It seems the whole row just has 2 legs, and the front portion of the chair is left hanging out. No idea if that would or would not physically stand up in reality, but I've never seen chairs like that.
I would add some candles. Churches always have candles. They provide very atmospheric light, which is something you could use. Unless it's your objective to create a more dark and cold place, of course.
--Erwin
Quotei don't think that Mordalles must be kicked for his opinions, because i think this is the object of a forum, isn't it?
Quotethey are just kidding friend,
Yes, kidding. We won't kick anyone just because of saying that people at CL suck and give shitty advice.
We just burn him on the stake and dance around the fire.
Also, there's annual meeting called Mittens where we lure all infidels, saying that's a happy internet people gathering where they actually get their annual beating and torture.
Now, Erwin_br made an excellent point. I knew that something's missing - candles, yes!
Waiting for fixes, it's a great BG, after all and worth the work.
Also, if possible (by your modelling software), google for some ornaments, make bumpmaps for them, and add them to those - otherwise boring benches. Being that simple, they just don't fit to this church, since church itself is quite colossal-looking.
The biggest problem I see is not the modelling, but the rendering. It looks kinda blurry to me. I hope that it's only due to the .jpg format.
The image itself is quite well designed and detailed - I think that the largest issue with this background in particular is that it seems almost too spacious. I agree with Steve McCrea in that the bottom half is all that is really necessary in the image for game purposes. You would, of course, lose your cool-looking stained glass windows, but at the moment there's a whole lot of open air and not quite enough interesting stuff up there to warrant it. Granted, huge churches like this often evoke a certain feel of gargantuousness, but for a background used in an adventure game you generally want to almost limit the area a player will focus on, or they tend to get distracted. A good cropping point may be just above the door on the second floor.
Aside from that, it could possibly use some dark foreground elements to break up the bottom of the screen, and if you would rather keep the vertical space, I'd suggest adding at least a hint of the ceiling. As the walls don't really end anywhere, vertically, the mind usually misreads it as traveling upwards into infinity. This can be fixed by even adding a slight inward curve about the top of the wall.
I haven't been inside a church in ages, I have this little fear of bursting into flames on holy ground, but it seems to me that perhaps your pews are a bit too far apart from one another. If I remember correctly they tend to be close enough that you don't need to lean very far forward to take a bible or whatever out of the back of the next pew up - these seem almost distanced enough that a grown man could walk face-on between two without any problems.
Hopefully this helps out a bit.
::)
Quote from: Andail on Thu 17/11/2005 16:17:55
Well that's an interesting attitude. I hope you're not serious
lots of interesting attitudes around here, i was just trying to blend in.
thx for the vote of confidence, kinoko. hehe.
Joke, Mord, Joke.
Quote from: Erwin_Br on Fri 18/11/2005 12:09:43
I would add some candles. Churches always have candles. They provide very atmospheric light, which is something you could use. Unless it's your objective to create a more dark and cold place, of course.
--Erwin
Candles can still give the dark and cold feeling if they are not lit. I'd also suggest some low hanging chandeliers, their long suporting cord could fill up the upper picture a little.
Quote from: Mordalles on Fri 18/11/2005 20:03:29
lots of interesting attitudes around here, i was just trying to blend in.
Care to elaborate?
If you read my previous post, is there anything you wish to argue?
Was it just the fact that people complained on the watermark that made you say that everybody here is just trying to sound clever, and that good advice here is rare, and you should in fact avoid our forum alltogether?
Just curious - I asked if you were serious or not but you didn't answer that.
Quote from: cp on Sat 19/11/2005 09:40:12
Quote from: Erwin_Br on Fri 18/11/2005 12:09:43
I would add some candles. Churches always have candles. They provide very atmospheric light, which is something you could use. Unless it's your objective to create a more dark and cold place, of course.
--Erwin
Candles can still give the dark and cold feeling if they are not lit. I'd also suggest some low hanging chandeliers, their long suporting cord could fill up the upper picture a little.
Of course I was talking about lit candles, smartass ;)
Good idea about the chandeliers, though.
--Erwin
Quote from: Andail on Fri 18/11/2005 10:49:14
If they don't say this, they won't have provided very useful c&c.
cgtalk is the biggest computer graphics forum around. Most professionals in any kind of graphics industry (animation, movies, games) are registered there, this includes people that worked on big productions such as commercial movies (ice age, lord of the rings, etc), etc. Feel enlightened.
Me, me, me! I want to be a moderator here!
2/3rds of the posts are about the watermark/mordalles/other forums.
Nothing to do with the almost perfect rendering done by txarly. What do you say we quit it?
About the BG: I think that it's 90-95% perfect. I wouldn't worry about the quality of the rendering or anything like that, but the practicality of having it in a game, as mentioned previously I believe. If the game is 800x600 the sprite will be what 20-40 pixels high. That's tiny!
Quote from: calacver on Sun 20/11/2005 00:03:29
Quote from: Andail on Fri 18/11/2005 10:49:14
If they don't say this, they won't have provided very useful c&c.
cgtalk is the biggest computer graphics forum around. Most professionals in any kind of graphics industry (animation, movies, games) are registered there, this includes people that worked on big productions such as commercial movies (ice age, lord of the rings, etc), etc. Feel enlightened.
Oh, and all these people will answer and give c&c on every single image you put up there?
I know those forums pretty well, and I'm in deep awe of some of the artwork published there. It doesn't mean that a single art contributer will recieve undevided attention to a much greater extent and quality than you can get here.
I could give you some links to threads I've seen there with very questionable c&c, or complete lack thereof.
If you people don't like this board, just stay out of it. Quit refering to other boards as soon as you don't agree on certain pieces of advice given here.
Quote from: Andail on Sun 20/11/2005 12:07:25
It doesn't mean that a single art contributer will recieve undevided attention to a much greater extent and quality than you can get here.
I, for one, wouldn't dare to post in a forum where the members are mainly professionals. I've seen many good pictures in here, from people who might be professionals but who don't go around with that label. So, I find it is easier to post my work in here and get some comments or suggestions without the feeling of taking exams at school.
Quote from: Andail on Sun 20/11/2005 12:07:25
Oh, and all these people will answer and give c&c on every single image you put up there?
I know those forums pretty well, and I'm in deep awe of some of the artwork published there. It doesn't mean that a single art contributer will recieve undevided attention to a much greater extent and quality than you can get here.
I could give you some links to threads I've seen there with very questionable c&c, or complete lack thereof.
If you people don't like this board, just stay out of it. Quit refering to other boards as soon as you don't agree on certain pieces of advice given here.
firstly cp. The people over yonder are very friendly. They always encourage people. There comments are not like 'exams' :). There are not only proffessionals. A huge part of the members are amateurs that learn from the pros and the semipros. It's a place to learn.
I have nothing against these forums. Some advice given here is good. But darn it people, cgtalk is the biggest cg community and the people aint never sarcastic.
Andail , if you knew those forums you wouldn't have made that earlier comment which i quoted. Images put there are commented upon if asked, not always by the pros, but at least by someone that has an artistic view.
And i like this board, never said i didn't. I simply told you what cgtalk is, since you clearly don't know. Stop being so darn defensive. And stop being so darn sarcastic to newcomers. Newcomers don't know of YOUR watermark policy since in most other (art) forumns its the norm. It find it amusing how some of you simply took that out of proportion, and even calling the guy dumb. That's down right crap.
Andail, go assemble a puzzle.
Its just funny becase it was so damn big....People need to chill out and see the humor in life...go outside, eat a hotdog...
Can you seriously say that you can go to this infamous other art forum and post a picture hidden behind a watermark and not get a little friendly joking?
calacver
I was a bit defensive because some guy said that good advice here is rare, and a lot other things which were just plain impolite and not true. Why is it so strange to you that I would react on that?
Also, like Squinky said, the watermark was a bit funny and original. No big deal. I also concur that even that pet forum of yours would raise a few eyebrows if they saw an image with a watermark like that.
And
QuoteAndail, go assemble a puzzle.
What kind of comment was that? Some kind of arbitrary insult? Please learn to behave before you post again.
Here is a paint-over to show you what I would do with the night version:
(http://www.twin-design.com/ags/help/txarly_help01.jpg)
- I made the lighting a tad more dramatic
- Added the stained glass back in (that part is a bit rough though)
If you use photoshop, and are interested, here's a PSD file showing how I did this:
> PSD File (~1MB) (http://www.twin-design.com/ags/help/txarlyhelp01.psd)
I was just trying to be silly about the watermark, I knew what it was for.
I just think they're silly because anybody determined enough can get it removed (as I evidenced in the paintover above!)
Didn't mean to start this avalance!!
I like the blue stainless windows, I think they should cause some blue illumination too
Quote from: stuh505 on Tue 22/11/2005 01:23:39I like the blue stainless windows, I think they should cause some blue illumination too
But they do!!
Perhaps the image is just too dark? I put a blue illumination over everything (except where the soft orange/white light is)
ThanksÃ, Darth Mandarb , nice edition.It looks much better this way. :)
this thread made me pee my pants! ;D ;D ;D
hehe, me too. ;)
Okie doke, this thread has gotten silly and some people are being really very rude to each other. Now I understand some of you are 12, or may be 23 going on 12, but if you want to fit in around here, DONT MAKE SNIDE REMAKES AT ALL, nor personal or nasty comments - or even comments that are ambiguous in nature and could still offend. Grow up, and treat it as if you're talking to a human being - not just blurting out your thoughts as if we'll pass over them and not care.