Adventure Game Studio

Following on from the picture thread, is it right for a man of 25 to date a girl of 16?

I must admit that I don't know a lot of young girls that are mature to the point where I wouldn't feel it creepy to try to have my way with them (as a 23 year old), but I'm sure some exist. We've all heard of tales of 'dude, she totally looked 3 years older than she was!' and I am prepared to admit that this can happen.

Remember the rule: take your age, divide it by two (round up), add seven = minimum ethical age of courtship!!1

Quote from: Helm on Mon 16/04/2007 22:48:14
remember the rule: take your age, divide it by two (round up), add seven = minimum ethical age of courtship!!1

It seems a reasonable rule to me really...

so:

30/2=15+7 22! Not bad! 22 is a flower! 22 is...




ok honey I'm coming...

sorry got to go now

PS. 25/2=12+7=19. She's not far off ;) And she looks SO cute! Plus she doesn't look 13, but just cute!

Nikolas, you're creepy.

How old are you, Pesty? Are you a girl?!

Quote from: AGA on Mon 16/04/2007 23:01:17
How old are you, Pesty? Are you a girl?!

I think it's safe to say now that I've been a member of this community for so long, that I've been lying about being a girl.

In reality I'm a genderless mind-flayer. Sorry to dash all your hopes.

I knew it! I bloody knew it! You posted those pics, and all the things you write. It was so obvious! And they wouldn't believe ¬¬

Quote from: Pesty on Mon 16/04/2007 23:03:06
In reality I'm a genderless mind-flayer. Sorry to dash all your hopes.

How big are your tentacles?

Quote from: AGA on Mon 16/04/2007 23:05:13

Quote from: Pesty on Mon 16/04/2007 23:03:06
In reality I'm a genderless mind-flayer. Sorry to dash all your hopes.

How big are your tentacles?

Bigger than you can handle, mortal being.

Quote from: Pesty on Mon 16/04/2007 22:59:32
Nikolas, you're creepy.

ME???

Why?

It is the rule, I tell you! the rule!

Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 16/04/2007 23:51:28

Quote from: Pesty on Mon 16/04/2007 22:59:32
Nikolas, you're creepy.

ME???

Why?

It is the rule, I tell you! the rule!

That one post is not the only thing that prompted my comment.

What else then? Now I'm curious???

If you feel akward feel free to PM me...

Nikolas...it's all those gay pr0n PMs you've been sending out to all the members. I wouldn't call it creepy, it's just annoying as hell.



:P

17/2+7=15,5

15 is too young for me, man! :P

Aaaand I'll have to agree with Helm here. Although I know how old she is, she looks pretty young...

20/2 +7 ... = 17... that's too old for my taste. Actually it's great. But makes me just wonder.... 70/2+7=42 So here's yet another blondie marrying a senile dying millionaire.

Quote from: vict0r on Tue 17/04/2007 09:44:59
17/2+7=15,5

15 is too young for me, man! :P

What you talking about? 15 is like the perfect age for me! (I'm 17 too btw)

Uh.. anyway, she's 16.

A month ago I'd have told you that 18 is the youngest for me and I'd never date a 16 year old... then I met her.

Now I am happy. I have a wonderful girlfriend, a good job,  and I recently bought an X-box 360!  :D

Well I'll be damned!

ManicMatt: She's 16, you're 25. That's 9 years of difference, and not when one is 50 and the one 41. Teen years are a delicate age, and girls in that bracket are best off socializing with people of equal age (no matter if many would protest at such a concept). Unless she's really mature that's kinda creepy, sorry to say. Think if you had a daughter her age dating someone who is 25.

as far as I know Matt, I wouldn't assume that he would take advantage of a girl. The guy didn't come for reference or advice, he came because he's ultra happy and I've never seen him like this. It's not our place to teach him... ;)

Helm, I do understand what you're saying perfectly and I do agree with you, but it's not my place to say anything really... (which could bring us to a whole different level of discussion but anyways)

Helm is just expressing how he feels about the situation. I think between the two of them, Helm has come off as the more mature, especially since Matt inferred that he wanted to beat up Helm for simply making an observation.

I agree with Helm in this situation, a sixteen year old girl dating a 25 year old man is creepy at best. But the way we feel about it doesn't change anything. Matt can go ahead and date his teenage girl all he wants. It's technically not illegal. I just wonder how her parents feel about the relationship.

Quote from: Pesty on Wed 18/04/2007 23:45:35
Helm is just expressing how he feels about the situation.

Exactly as I am, on a different situation though.

As I mentioned earlier I also agree that maybe she's a tad young, but I have a feeling that for both of them this is not a problem. Furthermore I don't see it courtous, nice, or useful to comment on a relationship like that in public. (the argument this is not the critics lounge works in the games in production forum, but does not work in this thread? ;)) But anyhow, it's one of the agree to dissagree issues I gather...

If the 16 year old was my daughter, I might call the guy home to see what he's about. Since it's been brought up that is.

(http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/07/15/film_wideweb__430x292.jpg)
"Don't worry, you look at least 18 today"

Quote from: Pesty on Wed 18/04/2007 23:45:35
especially since Matt inferred that he wanted to beat up Helm for simply making an observation.

And here I got the impression he was going to kiss him O_o No wonder all the hostility.

And what comes to young women, this is probably not the best place to discuss it, but, she's legal, and I trust Matt knows best what he's doing. I'd rather not see my sister in such a situation, but 25ers are usually more responsible than say, 17ers. Oh, and she's not a kid, and if she is, Matt, be careful :) Girls at that age are really fragile :)

I just don't find that funny m0ds.  >:(

Well maybe a little.. grr...

Helm suggested my girlfriend looks like a child, which makes me sound like some pedo. So no, I don't appreciate his bumbling question and comment.

Her mother is fine with me. Sure she'd have preferred someone closer to her age, but she's met me, and she's accepted it.

Wait, why am I justifying myself to you people? Piss off!

Where is Disco with his naked shower photos when you need him?

Matt, It's simply always risky mentioning controversial aspects about your life on the internet, and even the sanctuary that is the AGS forums. SO I TAK0R TEH PISS!!11

I should know, I've posted up dangerous girlfriend material here too ;) & HAD PISS TEKKEN OFF ME!1

I'm sure this isn't the first and won't be the last time someone comments to you about a concern over your age gap. Its natural. I was 21 going out with an 17 year old and there were still some questions asked of me. Personally, I don't have a problem with strange dating age-gaps between the ages of 16 and 30. When people get together and they are happy that is essentially all that's needed. We're all still young at those ages & I'd argue we were put on this earth to fuck. So, providing its legal - so be it.

Anyway, I don't think you're a pedo. But that's not to say I don't think you're playing with fire, for the simple fact as people say, there are so many confusing times for someone who's 16 still to come that I find it hard to beleive they will be mature enough to understand exactly what you want or need from a relationship, and vice versa. Luckily though, some women (and men) don't care. Providing their sex quota is met. :P

QuoteI don't see it courtous, nice, or useful to comment on a relationship like that in public.

If people don't want people making reasonable observations about easy to see aspects of their relationship, then they shouldn't make public posts/post images of their loved ones or that about their relationship.

If someone - and I'm not saying that's on the same wavelength as what Matt did - posts pictures of himself and his wife and she's covered in bruises and crying I won't find it unreasonable to ask if he's beating her.

Quote from: Nikolas on Wed 18/04/2007 23:54:38

Quote from: Pesty on Wed 18/04/2007 23:45:35
Helm is just expressing how he feels about the situation.

Exactly as I am, on a different situation though.

As I mentioned earlier I also agree that maybe she's a tad young, but I have a feeling that for both of them this is not a problem. Furthermore I don't see it courtous, nice, or useful to comment on a relationship like that in public. (the argument this is not the critics lounge works in the games in production forum, but does not work in this thread? ;)) But anyhow, it's one of the agree to dissagree issues I gather...

If the 16 year old was my daughter, I might call the guy home to see what he's about. Since it's been brought up that is.

I genuinely don't care about being courteous, nice, or useful.


Also, I agree with Helm again, if you want to be safe from being commented on, don't post pictures. Although this is a magical thread that's non-picture posts are deleted regularly, people still have every right to say what they feel about the pictures you post.

Matt, nobody accused you of being a pedophile. Helm just mentioned that your girlfriend looked young, and indeed she IS young. 16 is young, whether you think so or not and whether it's legal or not. Maybe she's more mature than most 16 year old girls, but that doesn't change the fact that she's young. Nobody is telling you to break up with her. If you're secure enough in your relationship with her, what the hell does it matter what some people on a forum feel about it?

Quote from: Tuomas on Tue 17/04/2007 09:47:41
20/2 +7 ... = 17... that's too old for my taste. Actually it's great. But makes me just wonder.... 70/2+7=42 So here's yet another blondie marrying a senile dying millionaire.

I use a different rule, which is (x=age, y=result): y = (x/2) + (x/3)

So 70 would equate to 58.3, which is somewhat more realistic.

Also, in my case it would either be 19.5 (half + 7) or (using my rule) 20.8.

My rule is comfy.

Also, I agree with Helm and Pesty. 9 years is just too much. A 16-year old girl of whom I was under the impression that she was 19 (it does happen, aye) was promptly struck off of the "hawtsome" list and had her name scribbled in unsightly handwriting right onto the "one year ago it'd've be illegal" list.

But hey, whatever makes you happy I guess.

Although 25 - 16 = 9...it doesn't really matter so much IMO. Yes...she's a teenager and he's not. Yes, it's nine years. But look at it this way....life itself proves the non-existence of math*.

What's more important than age is physical, mental, and emotional maturity. Sure there's more, but those are probably some of the most important. We all know that Matt's kinda immature himself...;)...so I'm sure it works out perfectly. On a more serious note though, as long as she is mature enough to make the relationship work, I don't see a reason why age should be such a huge issue.

The girl I'm currently madly in love with...:P...is 3 years, 13 months, and 6 days younger than me...(;D). I'm 19 (as of 4 April 2007), so she'll be turning 15 on 10 May. voh's rule tells me 15 is my minimum age. Her parents don't support my interest in her and she only likes me as a friend. And that's the way I like it...hahaha...see...I'm going to go on a mission for my church...eventually. I'm unsure at this point exactly when I'll be leaving. Anyway, her parents have told me when I get back from my mission (which will last two years) that she'll be old enough to date. And she's agreed to go out with me at least once when I get back. So...it gives me something to look forward to.

But I can (to a certain extent) sympathize with Matt here. People have called me a paedo (the correct spelling of "pedo") for liking a girl that's 4 years younger than me...but I don't care. What I care about is her. I care about her more than I've ever cared for another human being in my life...and considering my previous...erm..."crushes"...that's really saying something. I WANT TO MARRY THAT GIRL! And I don't care who knows it! := I'd post a picture except...I only have one of her and it's not very good...and besides...her parents would murder me for putting that on the internet again...XD Oooohhhhh the implications of my words....



*Zeno's Paradox

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Thu 19/04/2007 04:34:40
The girl I'm currently madly in love with...:P...is 3 years, 13 months, and 6 days younger than me...(;D). I'm 19 (as of 4 April 2007), so she'll be turning 15 on 10 May.

And as you see, we all like minors deep down ;)

QuoteThe girl I'm currently madly in love with...:P...is 3 years, 13 months, and 6 days younger than me...(;D). I'm 19 (as of 4 April 2007), so she'll be turning 15 on 10 May. voh's rule tells me 15 is my minimum age. Her parents don't support my interest in her and she only likes me as a friend. And that's the way I like it.

Thank you for upping the creepiness of this thread that much more.

Hey, I'm not saying age difference is bad. I dated a girl for 2 years who was 4 years younger than me. But it was 18-22 at the time, and even then I was apprehensive. But it worked out fine, though in the end one of the main reasons it ended was because she was too immature. But I'd never go for anyone under 20 from this point on because of that.

It depends on the person, and I'm not saying Matt's a sicko, I'm just saying I can see where Helm is coming from. I wouldn't do it myself either.

But if he's happy with her, and she with him, and her parents approve, all the luck to 'em :)

I want a girlfriend.

I'm 6 years younger than my boyfriend. We met when he was nearly 25, and I was 19.

We were both a little apprehensive about the age difference, but it's worked out really well. We've been together for 2 years and live together now.

The thing is though, he's always been a little immature for his age, and I've always been a LOT more mature than other people my age. So I guess it worked. If I was an ordinary 21 year old and went out pubbing and clubbing and whatever else... then maybe it wouldn't work. But I'm pretty mellow for a 21 year old... I like staying in, keeping my house tidy, relaxing at home in my comfy living room with a bottle of wine... we also have really similar interests IE video games, internet, writing, reading...

So it worked. And this year I'll be 21 and he'll be 27, but it really doesn't seem like that much.

THAT SAID, he often gets funny looks from people because I STILL LOOK ABOUT 16. And he just has to deal with that. Unfortunately, I may be very mature for my age, but I look VERY young for my age. The way he's learned to deal with it, Matt, is to joke about it. It's when you have the maturity to have a relaxed attitude about it, that people know there's nothing wrong there... if you know what I mean.

Age is a strange thing with relationships, I've had a couple of older and younger women,

10 years is the biggest gap, I was 30, she was 40, we're just friends these days, and she has kids 15 and 9, who are also my friends, it just wouldn't work cause I want to have kids and she's had her share

8 years comes in next I was 29, she was 21, wasn't that serious, she was a bit young

at 22 I also went out with an 18 year old fresh out of high school, that was a lot of fun but she was just starting uni, and we were heading in different directions


I guess age does play a part but usually age determines what stage you are at in general, but people are at different stages at different ages, and you just have to find a compatible person.

I do agree though not to mess with teens when you're in your mid twenties, no matter how mature they are (portray) you do eventually notice the immaturities, and they are still developing, it's best just not to go there. [just my opinion]

My older sister 33 is married to a 42yo they started going out when she was 25, they have 3 kids

My younger sister 28 is married to a 29yo they started going out when she was 15, they have 1 kid

2 of my friends at 31 are going out with 23yo's  The girls are definately more mature than they were 2 years ago when I was with one of their friends.


For me at this stage of my life 25-32 is probably a good range but no strict rule

Monkey, why are you in contact with her parents and haggling if she's only interested at you as a friend? That's... peculiar!

OMFg11 im gonna stab u now helm

Don't get me started with you little lady! 19 to 25 is a big difference! I forbid you to see Spaff anymore! Go to your room!

I LOVE HIM. WE'RE IN LOVE. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ME. NOBODY UNDERSTANDS ME.

(http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/media/content_crying_child.jpg)

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

Quote from: Meowster on Thu 19/04/2007 13:41:43
I'm 6 years younger than my boyfriend. We met when he was nearly 25, and I was 19.

We were both a little apprehensive about the age difference, but it's worked out really well. We've been together for 2 years and live together now.

The thing is though, he's always been a little immature for his age, and I've always been a LOT more mature than other people my age. So I guess it worked. If I was an ordinary 21 year old and went out pubbing and clubbing and whatever else... then maybe it wouldn't work. But I'm pretty mellow for a 21 year old... I like staying in, keeping my house tidy, relaxing at home in my comfy living room with a bottle of wine... we also have really similar interests IE video games, internet, writing, reading...

So it worked. And this year I'll be 21 and he'll be 27, but it really doesn't seem like that much.

THAT SAID, he often gets funny looks from people because I STILL LOOK ABOUT 16. And he just has to deal with that. Unfortunately, I may be very mature for my age, but I look VERY young for my age. The way he's learned to deal with it, Matt, is to joke about it. It's when you have the maturity to have a relaxed attitude about it, that people know there's nothing wrong there... if you know what I mean.

Wow, that's my situation almost exactly, except the age difference is five years, not six. It's only an issue when we're trying to discuss 90s cartoons though. Apparently I missed the golden years.

MY wife is 3 years oldern than me. She's a pedo! (true though).

If Matt's interest are games and music, it could very well be a little mature girl that likes the same things. Time will show really...

Quote from: The Ivy on Thu 19/04/2007 15:33:07
Wow, that's my situation almost exactly, except the age difference is five years, not six. It's only an issue when we're trying to discuss 90s cartoons though. Apparently I missed the golden years.

About a year ago I would've been inclined to agree that you did - but now that I've spent some time rewatching the shows I liked back then I get the eerie feeling they weren't the golden years but the gold-plated years. They seemed so awesome, but scratch a little and you see it's actually made from gold-plated pewter >_<

Quote from: Nikolas on Thu 19/04/2007 15:36:51
MY wife is 3 years oldern than me. She's a pedo! (true though).

If Matt's interest are games and music, it could very well be a little mature girl that likes the same things. Time will show really...

Your wife is a pedo?

I'm sure he meant the age difference of three years.

I hope ;D

That's what I meant!

This is the great thing about the AGS forums, and it's what always brings me back.  The people here are all more than willing to give you advice, opinions, and the occasional insult, and yet, we're all friends at the end of the day.  Just one big happy family! 

I'm serious.  It seems like there is no other forum where you could post the kinds of posts we do (especially ones that are personal, asking for advice) and get away with it. 

Not that Matt was actually asking anyone's advice, but hey, what're friends for?!?   ;D

Friends are there to ask you the questions you don't want, but need to hear. Friends are there to confront you whenever that's necessary. Friends don't judge you on it, but they might advise you to do different.

I guess we're being friendly, yeah ;)

Quoteremember the rule: take your age, divide it by two (round up), add seven = minimum ethical age of courtship!!1

Let's adapt this rule to the ones who want to court with someone much older...
18-7= 11    11.2=22

22 is still young for me :-\

Yes, I'm interested in women who are much older than me (and yes, I used to love/be fond of some girls in my age, but now that feeling is so far away from me). I usually go better with females older than me; the girls in/under my age find me boring, but elder ones find me mature enough. 

The rule Helm mentions is usually stated as the ideal age for a man's partner, rather than the minimum ethical age.

Wait... that seems to be the same thing, carry on.

Quote from: Pesty on Thu 19/04/2007 15:45:27

Quote from: Nikolas on Thu 19/04/2007 15:36:51
MY wife is 3 years oldern than me. She's a pedo! (true though).

Your wife is a pedo?

So as far as I know, nik just admitted being a paedophile O_o That's 3rd so far, this is getting out of hands!

Quote...is usually stated as the ideal age for a man's partner

Umm... You may be right for the first thing you say
So in the y=f(x) ,  [f(x)= (x/2)+7 ] function, the x=male age and y=female age.

As I am not female, this formula can't be used for finding the maximum ideal age for my partner, only the minimum.
If y variable can't be used for males, then is there any other formula for the weird guys like me who are fond of mature women?     

yeah, x+n where x is you and n is the size of your penis... err, in inches.

Quote from: Tuomas on Thu 19/04/2007 16:48:46
yeah, x+n where x is you and n is the size of your penis... err, in inches.

In that case, I will be able to date with very young girls.
Both bad and good   :'(   (But not good for me as I didn't want to date with younger girls.)

I'm 26, my gal is 22, and I'm not sure I could go much lower without damn good reasons. I could possibly stretch to 20, but wouldn't even dream of going below 18.
I've done a lot of teaching in high-school, and kids there are just so immature I sometimes lose faith in humanity and cry within.

Unless you're very immature for your age, or very inexperienced when it comes to relations and sex and all that, I see no reason why you shouldn't strive to find women of your own age.

i met my wife when she was 17, i'm 3 years older, the only person whoever had a problem with age difference was my mother.. which suprised me because my old man was 7 years older than her!
i have three daughters, 2 over 16 and they tend to go for slightly older boys, maybe its because they get chance to see guys in the same age group grow up and realise what prats they are lol

I have nobody! :'(

I did go out with someone who was ten years older than me (28 - 38), but I never noticed any difference between us.

Quote from: Pesty on Wed 18/04/2007 23:45:35
I agree with Helm in this situation, a sixteen year old girl dating a 25 year old man is creepy at best.

My first instinct is to agree, and indeed I can't see myself going out with anyone younger than 21 or so.

But then, you know how it is with relationships, sometimes you just meet someone that you can't get out of your head, and when that happens their age doesn't seem to matter any more.

QuoteI did go out with someone who was ten years older than me (28 - 38), but I never noticed any difference between us.

Was this person a girl? Did you search thoroughly enough?

Quote from: Pumaman on Thu 19/04/2007 19:26:01
I can't see myself going out with anyone younger than 21 or so.

Damn, there goes my last chance  :'( :'(

Oh, Helm, you rascal. :P

I didn't see any difference between us based on our age gap. I liked her, and I never considered age as a factor. Because it wasn't.

I can see that at 38 - 48. People are pretty much what they'll remain to be on a lot of ways at 38.

And my guess is that it's the same for Matt at this point. While the age gap is there - if it feels like it isn't, and you care enough about one another, why not give it a try?

But others might always get an 'okay, this is weird' feeling in their gut. Like CJ said, love doesn't care about cultural taboos.

I guess sometimes you have a meeting of minds with someone, and age doesn't matter so much...

The thing is, with a CERTAIN age it's a bit more... well, 16 year olds can look and behave a lot like 12 years olds.... The younger a person gets, the more you have stand back and REALLY think about whether it's okay... whether that age gap is okay for both of you...

...of course if it works okay and everything, cool, good stuff. But don't be surprised when people give you funny looks and ask how old your girlfriend is...

Quote from: Helm on Thu 19/04/2007 19:36:36
I can see that at 38 - 48. People are pretty much what they'll remain to be on a lot of ways at 38.

I think that's quite an important point ... people's personalities can change a lot through their teenage years so it's quite possible to "grow apart" from the other person if you date someone young.

Of course, this can happen at any age, but in general once people get to 30 or so I guess their personality is less likely to change very much as they get older.

Actually, IMHO, it's not so much the age difference, it's the age GROUP difference... Matt is an adult, while his girlfriend is a teenager, that's the thing that strikes me as creepy. I mean, teenagers can be neurotic, childish, confused people. And I should know, I'm one too. Seriously, Matt, did you give this thing more than 5 minutes of thought?

And when you mentioned the word "group" I started thinking. You'll have a laugh when you hang out with her and her friends or vice versa.

Am I just anti-social, or do you find that your partner's friends are usually not people you enjoy hanging around with? I find it more likely that it's just my own reaction though.

As for the age thing, being a teenager, I'd limit myself to any person with a -teen in their age. If nothing else, because younger girls are just children and older girls would be in a substantially different place in their life. Overall, it wouldn't really work out. Having said that, I wouldn't use age alone as a factor in a relationship. The age of a person and their level of maturity aren't always connected, so it's best to judge each case on its own merits. I know a 13 year old girl with whom I can have deep and intelligent conversations, and  17 year olds who are seemingly incapable of independent thought.

Quote from: Dan_N_GameZ on Thu 19/04/2007 21:35:01
Actually, IMHO, it's not so much the age difference, it's the age GROUP difference... Matt is an adult, while his girlfriend is a teenager, that's the thing that strikes me as creepy. I mean, teenagers can be neurotic, childish, confused people. And I should know, I'm one too. Seriously, Matt, did you give this thing more than 5 minutes of thought?

Actually, that's a fair point to bring up.

I've never felt comfortable in my own age group. I always found conversation with most people my own age to be quite shallow, and I never enjoyed hanging out with people my age because they had very much more immature ways of entertaining themselves... I found other girls takes on relationships at my age to be much different from my own (a lot of girls are so immature, always creating problems and drama for their relationships and then crying to their friends if their boyfriend doesn't say 'I love you' in a convincing enough way, that kind of thing...)

Which could be why my relationship with my older boyfriend works so well: all my friends are his age, too. My youngest friend is 23, my oldest is 30. I just naturally find that's the group of people I hang out with most easily.

What about you, Pesty? Is this situation similar to yours?

Quote from: Mr Flibble on Thu 19/04/2007 21:46:49
Am I just anti-social, or do you find that your partner's friends are usually not people you enjoy hanging around with? I find it more likely that it's just my own reaction though.

My partner and I have the same group of friends... some of my friends are people I met because of dating him, and some are people I've "added" to the group since knowing him. But we always get on well...

Of course, it is possible for people be mature or immature enough so that, emotionally and intelligently, they're not part of their respective age group, but from what I gather from Matt's post, he just saw a pretty face and jumped on it, and now he's "madly in love", he didn't say anything along the lines "I know she's a lot younger than me, but we have stimulating conversations, she's really a lot more mature..." and the like. Frankly, in my school, the "popular kids" have relationships that last a week tops... And of course, while in them, they're all "OMG I L00VE HERE SO MUCH :X:X:X:X I CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT HER" and such all day. But I disgress. I have experienced love. It is nothing like what Matt describes...

I have bit of thing for both thin, leggy woman with a grinning pixie look, as well as cougers, Yet to find ANYBODY, but hey, my step dad never dated in all his life and he recently (1 year anniversary a few days earlier) married my mom, so I guess love can happen to anyone.

Reading Matt's initial comments included with the pictures of his g/f, I would speculate that it's his first relationship. 

Twenty-five is pretty late to be entering the dating game so he'd probably be ill-equipped to date a girl his own age as she'll likely be a lot more experienced than him. 

It can tough for late bloomers to find a partner their own age at the same level of development as them. 

I would also add to that, that I find Matt to be a lot less mature than you would expect from his age... I don't mean that to be an insult, Matt... I already said that my own boyfriend is a lot less mature than his age group (okay well, that was when I met him... in the space of a year he has managed to take a massive leap and has gone from being a bit of a flirty, attention-seeking, loudmouth to being a bit settled down...)

But, I honestly thought from the way Matt behaves online and in his videos, pics etc... that he was younger than me.

Quote from: Andail on Thu 19/04/2007 16:58:47I've done a lot of teaching in high-school, and kids there are just so immature I sometimes lose faith in humanity and cry within.

Quote from: Meowster on Thu 19/04/2007 21:49:01
I've never felt comfortable in my own age group. I always found conversation with most people my own age to be quite shallow, and I never enjoyed hanging out with people my age because they had very much more immature ways of entertaining themselves...

I wouldn't date someone younger than me, but there are girls that I find very attracive and are, ironicly, younger. I think if a girl at a young age can show maturity and an intrest in more "adult" things, they are more attractive than someone of my age with the same views.

I'm dating a girl a year older than I am. I'm a senior in high school and she's a freshman in college. I find that more odd than a senior dating a freshman in high school.

Then again, I have an addiction to women. :D

Quote from: Pumaman on Thu 19/04/2007 19:26:01

Quote from: Pesty on Wed 18/04/2007 23:45:35
I agree with Helm in this situation, a sixteen year old girl dating a 25 year old man is creepy at best.

My first instinct is to agree, and indeed I can't see myself going out with anyone younger than 21 or so.

But then, you know how it is with relationships, sometimes you just meet someone that you can't get out of your head, and when that happens their age doesn't seem to matter any more.

I see what you're getting at here.


You had me at "hello", CJ. You had me at "hello".

We're comparing CJ to Tom Cruise now?

Well this has just exploded! Hahaha I should definitely clear up what I meant earlier. When I said that I like the fact that her parents don't currently support my interest in a relationship with her and that she only likes me as a friend, I didn't really think through my next statement. I said "that's the way I like it." I should have elaborated upon the fact that if I want to pursue this mission for my church, I don't need to be getting involved in a relationship right now.

The fact that her parents wouldn't let us date right now even if we wanted to makes it easier on my part, and though right now she just likes me as a friend, she did agree to go out with me when I return from my mission. We both know that for now, whether we like it or not, we're just friends. When I said, "that's the way I like it," I simply meant that this is the way it is going to be, the way it has to be, and I've come to terms with that.

Perhaps "t3h 1nt4rw3b" isn't the best place for such a serious discussion. Especially considering that someone will inevitably dissect your words unmercifully. What I said about her parents saying we could go out when I return from my mission was of course taken completely out of context.

I was not, as Helm put it, "in contact with her parents and haggling". For Valentine's Day I gave this girl...a very...extravagant...display of my affection. She knew I was going to do it, in fact, she told me to. She didn't know before-hand what it was, but she told me to do it anyway. Due to the extent of my display, her parents were quite rightly concerned for her well-being. That is because the display was entirely anonymous. 'The girl' is the only one who knew who it was from.

Her mom called me that morning to ask if I was the one who had set up this display. Because it was anonymous, it was understandable why she would be concerned about her 14 year old daughter. I confessed to her mom that I was the one who had done it, and she told me that I (as an 18 year old) didn't need to be focusing on their 14 year old daughter...I needed to focus on going on my mission. She told me that when I return from my mission we can (if we are both in mutual agreement to do so....¬¬") date. And that they (the mother and father) will support the relationship. But if I don't go on my mission they will not support me dating their daughter.

I wasn't in secret cohorts with her parents. They said these things to me because of the extent I went to on Valentine's Day to show this girl how much she means to me. And let me reiterate once more, that even though right now she says she only likes me as a friend, she has agreed to go out with me when I return from my mission. I'm unsure how most people strike off their relationships (as I've never really had a girlfriend before)...but I imagine (romanticize) that romantic relations start off with friendship. Of course I'm probably wrong and romantic relations (in this modern world) probably just start off with sex.

Dissect away Helm....dissect away.

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Fri 20/04/2007 07:57:08
Dissect away Helm....dissect away.

Oooh oooh!  Can I do it too?!

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Fri 20/04/2007 07:57:08
For Valentine's Day I gave this girl...a very...extravagant...display of my affection. [...] Due to the extent of my display, her parents were quite rightly concerned for her well-being.

Creepy!

I spent over $100 on their 14 year old daughter. It was gifted to her anonymously. Therefore they had right to be concerned. Especially considering there is a 40-something member at our church who is also interested in her....:-X

2 dozen roses, a big purple heart-shaped balloon that played the song "Wild Thing", a teddy bear, 1.25 gallons of her favorite ice cream, 4 liters of her favorite soda, a vase for the roses, a box of chocolates, a card....yeah I think that's it. Other than the poem I wrote her.

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Fri 20/04/2007 08:23:05
Especially considering there is a 40-something member at our church who is also interested in her....:X

Creepier!

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Fri 20/04/2007 08:23:05
1.25 gallons of her favorite ice cream, 4 liters of her favorite soda,..., a box of chocolates,...

WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO DO TO HER?!

I usually hang out with (not only girls) people slightly younger than me. Maybe it's something else though, because often enough I can find them to be immature, excessive and tiresome. But then again, I find people even slightly older than me to be boring. The only older girl I've been with (23 when I was 19-20) acted pretty young for her age, and was only a year ahead of me. Most of the girls I've been with were from what was already the group of "my friends".

There was this girl who used to be seated next to me on the bus who was 14 (when I was 18), and amazingly enough, she had a crush on me. The age thing wasn't as much of a problem as the fact that she was 4 classes below me. Being as socially inept as I am, I had no idea how to handle the situation. Soon enough, it didn't matter, because I left the country.

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Fri 20/04/2007 08:23:05
I spent over $100 on their 14 year old daughter. It was gifted to her anonymously. Therefore they had right to be concerned. Especially considering there is a 40-something member at our church who is also interested in her....:-X

2 dozen roses, a big purple heart-shaped balloon that played the song "Wild Thing", a teddy bear, 1.25 gallons of her favorite ice cream, 4 liters of her favorite soda, a vase for the roses, a box of chocolates, a card....yeah I think that's it. Other than the poem I wrote her.

Dude you said you were getting her some flowers but...

Seems a little ott, especially seeing as it was anonymous!

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Fri 20/04/2007 07:57:08
if I want to pursue this mission

Quotewhen I return from my mission.

Quotego out when I return from my mission

QuoteShe told me that when I return from my mission

Quoteshe has agreed to go out with me when I return from my mission.

I'm sorry to go off topic, but are you planning on attacking the Death Star or something here?

Or convert some poor Africans?

I would probably loathe someone nine years younger than I.  In fact, I know some twenty year old girls that I downright want to soak in rubbing alcohol.

But, I suppose it's a little less creepy for a 29 year old to date a 20 year old.  When I was twenty-five, however, I'd never think of dating a 16 year old.  They're just kids at that age.

When I was 24, I hooked up with this really good looking girl.  She was so good looking, I got suspect - and yep - she was under 18.  And I felt dirty.  Until she turned 18 the next month.  Then I felt only slightly dirty.  But I gave up my young womanizing ways a few years ago.

I'm not making any sense.  Anyway, I think teens are off limits if you're an adult.  (In your twenties.)  But that's just me.  If it REALLY works for someone else, god bless ya. 


Bt

Quote from: Chicky on Fri 20/04/2007 14:44:56

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Fri 20/04/2007 08:23:05
I spent over $100 on their 14 year old daughter. It was gifted to her anonymously. Therefore they had right to be concerned. Especially considering there is a 40-something member at our church who is also interested in her....:-X

2 dozen roses, a big purple heart-shaped balloon that played the song "Wild Thing", a teddy bear, 1.25 gallons of her favorite ice cream, 4 liters of her favorite soda, a vase for the roses, a box of chocolates, a card....yeah I think that's it. Other than the poem I wrote her.

Dude you said you were getting her some flowers but...

Seems a little ott, especially seeing as it was anonymous!

I would just like to say that after reading your previous post it has now become apparent that she knew who the flowers, ice cream etc were from.

That makes it less crazy.

I want a mission :(

     I don't really see any problem with Matt dating who he wants. If it is legal in the UK to date anyone 16 and up then it is a matter of a personal decession. You can get screwed in any relationship no matter what the age difference is and I suppose it can work out just the same.  Good luck, Matt and I hope that you and your girl are happy!!!

Quote
2 dozen roses, a big purple heart-shaped balloon that played the song "Wild Thing", a teddy bear, 1.25 gallons of her favorite ice cream, 4 liters of her favorite soda, a vase for the roses, a box of chocolates, a card....yeah I think that's it.

That's great, she can use it for a party with her 14-year-old friends.

Here are a few pointers:

* Don't give $100 worth of presents to someone unless you're either her rich uncle or her boyfriend (no it doesn't count that she has said she might go out with you after you've done x days of missioning).
* Until you have some sort of anniversary or other cause for celebration, just give symbolic gifts. Use your imagination and come up with something personal, a funny card that you drew yourself or a nice little plant or something. Good gifts are not per definition expensive.
* If you're gonna give something worth $100, don't go to the grocery store and buy consumables, buy something classy like a small piece of jewelry that will last.
* Don't mess with minors. I don't know if she's allowed to have sex (in Sweden and most countries she wouldn't), and you'd really be up the creek if she even hinted to someone that you've approached her indecently.

Quite frankly, I find the fact you fancy a 14 year old girl pretty worrying. That you're in love with a 14 year old girl, is worrying.

You're basically in love with a child.

Quote from: Andail on Fri 20/04/2007 17:25:40

Quote
2 dozen roses, a big purple heart-shaped balloon that played the song "Wild Thing", a teddy bear, 1.25 gallons of her favorite ice cream, 4 liters of her favorite soda, a vase for the roses, a box of chocolates, a card....yeah I think that's it.

* Don't give $100 worth of presents to someone unless you're either her rich uncle or her boyfriend (no it doesn't count that she has said she might go out with you after you've done x days of missioning).

You know what can happen? And this is a true story. My friend had a 1-year anniversary with his girlfriend. So he bought him something expensive. I think it was a necklace. Day before the anniversary she broke up with him... I'm not going to tell you about my relationship with the girlfriend ¬¬

Anyway, buying expensive stuff is really not worth it, unless it's very secure. I tend to save my money as much as possible, so if I ever could think of something that is cheaper, I'd get it. It's not the money you spend in it, it's the thought. You're not buying her off her parents, are you?


EDIT: Funny thing though, I just asked one of my friends, girl(14yrs) about this. "So what, my boyfriend is 20!" She answered. That came as a surprise.

So I asked if she knew about the satuatory rape law. She didn't, so I explained. "We've decided to wait for the 1+ years" She said.

Then she said she'd never go out with someone who was 4 years old when she's 14. But then, oh well. Damn kids these days!

QuoteThe fact that her parents wouldn't let us date right now even if we wanted to makes it easier on my part, and though right now she just likes me as a friend, she did agree to go out with me when I return from my mission.

Creepy as hell.

Is there a contract written in blood?

Monkey, relationships are much easier when you want a person and the person wants you. Without level grinds and parents and whatnot. Find someone your age.


Creepy.

Quote from: Pesty on Fri 20/04/2007 02:27:26
I see what you're getting at here.

You had me at "hello", CJ. You had me at "hello".

Oh Pesty, I'll never forget that evening we shared in McDonalds; when I gazed into your twinkling blue eyes, offered you one of the chips from my Big Mac with a dollup of ketchup, and you accepted... it was the happiest moment of my life.

Why do we torture ourselves by continuing this life apart? Come to London, I'll treat you to a glass of Tesco Value Red Wine-Style Drink and a slap-up meal at KFC. I know that you're only 13 and that I'm 46, but age isn't important to me; all that matters is our love.

I forgot something I wanted to say. You people talk lots about maturity and I see that point, but what about physical maturity and comfort with the sexual aspect? It surely takes a bit of time for girls to get comfortable with it, especially seeing how they're archetypically invaded and all. I don't think most 16-year old girls are always ready for that sort of thing. I first had sex at about that age and I somewhat regret it, and I'm a guy. I was strongly pressured by my peer group, though of course it all evened out after all, but there's better ways to enter the realm of sexuality than that.

Given all this, I'd feel very bad and awkward to be trying to ensnare a 16-year old into penising her at my age. People who are 25 perhaps should be looking for equally responsible sexual partners, but then again I see the 'first relationship, afraid of the girls' experience' point. It gets pretty strange-feeling when the girl I'm with has a more thorough history of perversion than me (quite difficult, but has happened) and therefore has had sexual experiences I haven't so I can't even begin to get in the mindset of how strange it might feel to be courting a girl that's done all that while you're a virgin at 25.

A lot about the confidence to flirt comes from knowing what you're doing. So in a way I can see how it's easier to court a teenager, as they're very superficial and just 'looking grown-up' makes you awesome to them.

I think we're all being a little harsh.

If Monkey was twenty and she was sixteen I wouldn't really see that big of a problem. Although, I can see the possibility of concern.

If Monkey had kept this to himself and announced he loved her next year, when those ages would be accurate, nobody would've thought that much about it.

Oh sure, they would've said "Dude, be careful" and went on about her being at a vunerable age, etc, without thinking that, at 20, the possibility that Monkey might still be a virgin and be just as "vunerable" as she is.

But Monkey didn't.

And now he is forever labelled as a paedo.

Oh well, Monkey. Live and learn.

Yes but,

If Spaff had dated me when I was 12 and he was 18, it would have been the same age difference... but very wrong.

16 is a bit ¬¬.... 14 is definitely very ¬¬ indeed

Being in love with a 14 year old when you're 20, is very VERY ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬

20 is my age, considering things like mortgages soon and my career NOW.  14 is younger than my little sister who doesn't even have proper breasts yet

But that's what I mean.

Nineteen and fourteen/fifteen is dicey indeed. I don't think anyone would disagree.

Twenty and sixteen is a little more palatable, though still likely to raise eyebrows. Twenty one and seventeen would be less likely to.

Twenty two and eighteen is fine. And anything after that too. Four years is just about acceptable if the girl is sixteen or over, I would guess. I suppose a number of factors would have to be taken into account. And we end up back at the maturity debate.

Not that I ever had anything even close to that. I date vastly older women as a rule. It's a win/win situation.

¬¬

LimpingFish cries into his rum and coke.

I suppose that maybe you're right. Maybe I am just insane for falling for a girl that swears she only likes me as a friend. And I'm almost certainly insane for thinking it would be okay seeing as she agreed to go out with me....in a couple of years.

But the one thing we're all agreed on is that I am absolutely, completely and utterly insane for posting about it on the internet.

I'm not wanting to pursue a sexual relationship with this girl. I believe in practicing sexual abstinence. That's right...I'm a virgin. And I'm proud of it. Even if things never do "work out" with this girl...I'll still be happy to have been her friend. And it won't change the way I feel about her. She's the most amazing person I've ever met. Is it really so wrong of me to want to spend the rest of my life with her? What I want most though is for her to be happy. If she never falls for me, then so be it.

I'm not going to deny my feelings just to appease your Creep-o-meters. But you all need to understand that I don't want a relationship with this girl right now. I want to, when she is older, pursue a relationship with her, yes. And if the relationship never advances beyond the level of "good friends" then I'm cool with that. And now that I've stated that three different times....

The reason I spent $100 on her for Valentine's Day is because it was literally all the money I had. I wanted to do something special for her. She didn't (doesn't) have a boyfriend, and so I knew that nobody was going to be giving her anything. I wanted to make her understand how much she means to me. And it wasn't about the amount of money I spent. It was about showing her how much I really care.

So why the hell did I buy ice cream and soda?

Well firstly the are, indeed, consumable items. Her parents couldn't really force me to take them back. There is then also the fact that she said, "diamonds are ugly." And her parents probably would have made me take that tiny, tiny hundred dollar diamond back. And, as I stated, they were both of her favorite variety.

So now I'm sure you all think that I was just trying to win her over by giving her all this crap. Think what you want, it wasn't about that. I'm really serious about this girl. I care about her more than anything else in the world. She means more to me than anything else in the world. And so, on Valentine's Day, I wanted to show her that the best way I knew how.

So go ahead, call me creepy, call me paedo, call me whatever the hell you want. The internet can't be taken seriously anyway.

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Fri 20/04/2007 21:53:08
So why the hell did I buy ice cream and soda?

I agree with you that consumables != bad gifts. My ex gave me 4 packs of kretek cigarettes for valentine's day and a big chocolate heart. I gave her.. flowers. Corny as fuck, but the dinner I made for her (I don't cook often) made up for it. It's the thought that counts in the end.

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Fri 20/04/2007 21:53:08
So go ahead, call me creepy, call me paedo, call me whatever the hell you want. The internet can't be taken seriously anyway.

For me, it's not so much being in love with a 14-yo at your age (I've had feelings for a 16-yo this year, and I'm 25, but as I said before I decided to break off contact with her, regardless of how much we enjoyed being just friends, because it just felt... sick), but more the way you speak about her.

Please do realize that in a year time, she'll have had another year of life.

Don't get your hopes up. And to be honest, I do think it'd be best for her to find someone her own age.

Because, dude. 14-16 yo's need to have their first experiences with relationships and all it entails with people from their own age groups.

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Fri 20/04/2007 21:53:08
I suppose that maybe you're right. Maybe I am just insane for falling for a girl that swears she only likes me as a friend. And I'm almost certainly insane for thinking it would be okay seeing as she agreed to go out with me....in a couple of years.

But the one thing we're all agreed on is that I am absolutely, completely and utterly insane for posting about it on the internet.

Yes you are. That's what it does. Love... :') I haven't had anyone to fancy in a long time.
/me smiles inside

QuoteShe's the most amazing person I've ever met. Is it really so wrong of me to want to spend the rest of my life with her? What I want most though is for her to be happy.

:)

hrmh. You, boy, are a sweet talker. Now you made me feel all soft inside. Oh dear... sheesh...
I so hear you. Now that you posted this here, made everyone critisize you, shows how sure you are, at least from my point of view. I know when I'm serious about these things. It's when I'm ready to open up to stranges, sober.

Aww crap. I really miss the feeling of fancying someone like you do.  :( Oh thanks now you made me all emotional and I'm going to feel ashamed after posting this.

People conclude much about me and her, when I have not given any real information out about it.

Guess what? I'm still not going to. Not because you are right, most of you are way off, (Except say CJ for example), but because I will not have my life disected by you lot! You could argue that most of you already have done so, but with such speculation and accusations it was like reading about someone else.

Matt, if you didn't want all this, then why put up the picture and go all "omfg, i'm in love! *drool*" about it?

And, more to the point, why are we squabbling about it - over 6 pages no less -, and giving Matt the attention he apparently craves so much...

Dan, you are a prick.

I didnt crave attention at all. I was just happy and wanted to share that happyness with my friends on here. I even asked CJ to get rid of this thread, as I don't welcome it.

This isn't even about Matt directly anymore. It's a discussion on age differences in relationships. Assuming that all this is about Matt and Matt alone is erroneous, as seemingly it's a topic that piques interest amongst those who posted here.

Interesting topix. I'd like to add when I was 13, I had a 18 year old g/f. Still with her.

Quote from: Dan_N_GameZ on Fri 20/04/2007 23:20:47
Matt the attention he apparently craves so much...

Matt hasn't actually been taking part in this conversation, if you read it. If he was attention seeking he probably would have, and he would've given more information.

I think if he wants to date a sixteen year old, then fair play to him. They probably have a lot of common, and have fun together. Who're we to argue? I reckon that until he shows up at the playground with candy then he's safe.


I know a 13 year old girl who wants to go out with me, but I ascribe this mainly to me being more mature than people she knows. I'm 16, so if I were single I don't think it'd be too taboo. It'd possibly be taboo because she's insane, but you know, that's outside the scope of this conversation. Well okay she isn't insane, she's just emotionally dependent and needy.... but I wouldn't be surprised if she said "Play Misty for me." She's that sort of person.

But whilst her friends were very much in favour of burning down my house because they thought I was going to rape and murder her, I didn't particularly see any issue with the age thing. If I was 18, then... no, I couldn't get away with that.

Quote from: Fatal Fury on Fri 20/04/2007 23:58:20
Interesting topix. I'd like to add when I was 13, I had a 18 year old g/f. Still with her.

You know, I'm intrigued. How did it come to this? Most boys are just, you know, kids at the age of 13. It's when they start to break their voice and, well I guess the pubic hair is there. Whereas girls at 18... She's been physically ready for some time already. There's like a whole grade of schooling between the two of you. How does she do it? I could understand it if it was the guy that was older, they do develope later, but... wow O_O

Quote from: Mr Flibble on Sat 21/04/2007 00:33:59
they thought I was going to rape and murder her, I didn't particularly see any issue with the age thing. If I was 18, then

You would rape and murder her if you were 18?

Quote from: Tuomas on Sat 21/04/2007 00:40:22

Quote from: Mr Flibble on Sat 21/04/2007 00:33:59
they thought I was going to rape and murder her, I didn't particularly see any issue with the age thing. If I was 18, then

You would rape and murder her if you were 18?

Oh crap, no.

I meant that dating a 13 year old when I'm 16 would be okay, but if I was 18 then I don't think it'd be acceptable.

The rape is fun for all ages! irrespective of age. Her friends just thought I was a risk for being older than her.

Crazy.. I cant believe the ammount of people here that think its ok to date CHILDREN.

OK.. so teenagers maybe a littel more mature than they were 10 years ago when i was 16, but it makes no difference. They dont have enough experience to make life changing decisions like that.

Kids fooling around with Kids is acceptable, its called experimentation, but 20+ year olds dating / sleeping with 13 - 17 year olds is unacceptable. Not to mention you shouldnt even be hanging around with children this age when you are 25.. WHAT GIVES? :/

Im 26, My Girlfriend is 19. I love her, but even at 19 i feel like a bit of a seedy bastard to be hooking up with her. Doesnt help shes so small and skinny and looks like shes 15 - 16, especially when we get up and shes walking around in her PJs like now.

IMO, untill your 18 you should stay within 2 - or + years of you age group. Once your 18, your free to experiment with older people. When i was 22 my GF at the time was 40. Dam we had a lot of fun, but the age difference leads to ALOT or fights/misunderstandings over the most rediculous things.

25 year olds sleeping with 16 year olds verges on pedophilia, not to mention its Illegal in most countries. Im not saying you guys ARE pedophiles, but the situation is very worring.

Dissapointed
Fee

There is a big difference between dating somebody young and having sex with somebody young.  If there is no sex involved, it might as well be classified as being friends. It is illegal to have sex with minors, not date them. I am pretty sure that people who date don't always have sex. I am no Dr. Ruth, so what do i know.  :-\

Who said he was sleeping with her?

Anyway 16 is legal age in England. Wikipedia-ing reveals that the average age of consent in Europe is around 15 or so. Although if you're viewing this from an American perspective that might sound crazily low.

My only concerns would be that the younger girl was just being carried along on the excitement of being with such an older guy. But that's off topic. If Matt were taking advantage of a naive, little girl- then I would find that objectionable. However, I don't think that's what he is doing. Young doesn't always mean naive!

Essentially, I feel that Matt isn't doing anything wrong. Age differences tend to bring in difficulties concerned with personal development and plans for the future... but if they can make it work without problems... then I'm fine with it.

And I don't think you should feel seedy, Fee. I think you should feel incredibly jammy : D

EDIT: Domino replied as I was posting, so what I wrote was a reply to Fee rather than what Domino said.

I am not mentioning Matt, just people in general.

Quote25 year olds sleeping with 16 year olds verges on pedophilia, not to mention its Illegal in most countries. Im not saying you guys ARE pedophiles, but the situation is very worring.

Just clarifying that there is nothing wrong with dating minors, just no intercourse.

edit: Reply to Fee and not Mr. Flibble.

I know there is a difference, but i doubt anyone will deny that if you want to date someone, theres a 99% chance you want to have sex with them. If you dont, id say your crazy :P

I see attractive looking teenage girls alot. On Wednesday Nights i teach a Kickboxing class to a group of 12 - 18 year olds, Most of them girls. Tho most of them are quiet nubile, theres no way i could take advantage. To me its just not right. If my 16 year old sister was dating a 26 year old guy, i would not be impressed and there would be a confrontation.

Every culture has its own idea of what is acceptable. 100 years ago it was not uncommon to see 12 year old girl, pregnant and married to 30+ year old guys. Especially in Isolated parts of the world. This changed and became unacceptable druing the 20th Century for western society atleast. Seems over the last 10 years, things have been going backwards in that respect :(

Fee

I think there's a difference between going out with someone with the intention of having sex, and going out with someone and having a relationship which eventually includes sex.

The former sounds more like lust in my opinion, and not the basis of a good relationship. Having said that... you're right, nearly all people do enjoy sex as part of a loving relationship.

My perspective in these issues is a little different, because I'm 16. I'm allowed to drool when those nubile 17 kickboxers walk past. I'm allowed to look at a thirty year old woman in the street and think "Woah, she's really pretty."  Essentially, I have no boundaries imposed upon me.

What you said about "taking advantage"... I think that phrase is fundamental in this issue. If I were to date that 30 year old woman, people would object because they'd think she was taking advantage of me. They wouldn't say "You shouldn't date her because she'll be 60 when you're 46."
They'd say "You shouldn't date her, it's wrong."

What if that 30 year old woman was really youthful, and carefree like a child? And what if I was gnarly and mature even at my tender age? She wouldn't be taking advantage of me, I'd have all the power. I think the idea of taking advantage of someone is really more what people think about when they express concerns over age differences. IMHO.

I believe several teachers have been jailed for that recently. One even hooked back up with they guy after she was released. If he wasnt such an impressionable age at the time they were sleeping together, i doubt the would have go together after the jail.

Your 16 and you can look if you want, im 26 and can look all i want also. Difference is at 16, you can do somthing about it.

Its when I use my previous experience to get young girls into bed that i am doing the wrong thing.

Look at it like this..
Your 16. Probly in school with a part time job (if any) no car (or a small first car) and littel experience with girls.
Im 26 with a fill time job as an Engineer, nice V8 Falcon and ive had several partners of varing age.

Say you and I are competing for the same 16 year old girl...

You buy her a rose and some Chocolates.
I buy her a dozen roses, some designer chocolares, ballons, teddybears ect.

You pick her up from school in your mothers Hyundai.
I pick her up in my Hoted up Ford.

You struggle to find the correct words to tell her how you feel due to lack of experience.
I tell her how i feel and make it sound all romantic and how we were destened to be together.

You take her to McDonalds for a dinner date.
I take her to a 5 star restraunt.


Dispite the fact you are most likely suited to someone your own age and have expressed your desires to have some sort of relationship with this girl, she barely notices because I used my recources and experience to overwealm your efforts. Hardly fair is it?

If an "old man" (like me lol) is spoling a young girl rotten, lavishing attention and gifts ect on to her they are clearly using their experience and recources to take advantage of someone at an impressionable age.

Maybe i dont explain myself right, im not the best when it comes to reading and writing, but i think you should see what i mean. No i better go before i get into trrouble lol...

Fee

No I get you completely, what you described wasn't fair at all. The girl would be overwhelmed by your lavish charm, resources, and that whole "better, faster, strongrer" alpha-male thing that would go with it.

I just think that I could be a 16 year old who was eloquent and rich, and take advantage of her in exactly the same way. I think we're essentially on the same page about this, although I'm a lot more apathetic about it.

...And for the record I do all the romantic stuff... the last present I got my girlfriend was this big hardback volume of Disney comics from the 50s. I prefer meaningful gifts like that. I'd consider it a sad day if the best I could do was chocolate and roses  :D

Quote from: Tuomas on Sat 21/04/2007 00:40:22

Quote from: Fatal Fury on Fri 20/04/2007 23:58:20
Interesting topix. I'd like to add when I was 13, I had a 18 year old g/f. Still with her.

You know, I'm intrigued. How did it come to this? Most boys are just, you know, kids at the age of 13. It's when they start to break their voice and, well I guess the pubic hair is there. Whereas girls at 18... She's been physically ready for some time already. There's like a whole grade of schooling between the two of you. How does she do it? I could understand it if it was the guy that was older, they do develope later, but... wow O_O

Liliana is actually my best friend's sister. I would always go to his house back in the day and one day I went to hang out, only to find he wasn't home. She was only home, so she insisted if I'd like to wait. Well, I did and we were watching TV on a couch together. She put her arm around my shoulders out of the blue. I looked into her eyes and she went in for some tongue. I wasn't even nervous since I had been hearing rumors of her saying I was cute looking.

Heck, even her brother told me about her crush with me. It came to no surprise though as she would always hang out with us whenever I was around. My friend didn't really mind  since he knows me well. Though we had to keep it a secret till I was 17. Only her brother knew. It was hard keeping it a secret from our families, but we managed and it was well worth the wait. ;D

That story is a mix of creepy and awesome.

I wish it would happen to me and at the same time I don't.

You have confounded me, Fatal Fury.

Bravo.

Quote from: Fatal Fury on Sat 21/04/2007 02:58:50
I would always go to his house back in the day and one day I went to hang out, only to find he wasn't home. She was only home, so she insisted if I'd like to wait. Well, I did and we were watching TV on a couch together. She put her arm around my shoulders out of the blue. I looked into her eyes and she went in for some tongue.

Isn't that the "being taken advantage of" part? Sounds sweet and all, but at the same time, I'd think it to be somewhat creepy. I mean...you where 13.

Monkey, this post is for you. It's full of speculation about your character. If it's too much tell me to cut it out and I will. If you can stand the public conversation, you're quite brave.

QuoteI suppose that maybe you're right. Maybe I am just insane for falling for a girl that swears she only likes me as a friend.

I would speculate that you're not crazy, just very green in matters of love and you've fallen for a girl for the first time and you think it'll be the last. I am a dramatic person and I know how it is to make a drama out of something just so it feels 'fuller' than the same-ol' other people experience. But dude, take it easy. I mean the words won't help you'll crash and burn and learn on your own, but take it easy. You'll meet many girls in your life (especially if you drop the abstinence thing soon enough) and you'll enjoy the rest of your youth.

Wait. Post a picture of yourself please.

QuoteAnd I'm almost certainly insane for thinking it would be okay seeing as she agreed to go out with me....in a couple of years.

That's not creepy 'cause she's young. It's just creepy because you sound so desperate. You say it's true love that makes you so single-minded. I guarantee most of everyone involved first-hand in this situation sees you as TOTALLY DESPRERATE and hopes you catch a strange disease in your mission on the death star and never recover so they won't have to deal with your crazy obsessive behaviour anymore. Seriously.

There's one thing newbies at relationships totally do, especially if they're bright but reserved, emotional but insecure: they CLING. You're clinging. Not even to a real relationship - a great way to destroy a real relationship in the first place - but to a promise of a date made under pressing circumstances which she plans to if it ever comes to that have with you and get out of the way as quick as possible.

QuoteBut the one thing we're all agreed on is that I am absolutely, completely and utterly insane for posting about it on the internet.

Unless you're some attention-seeker, I actually applaud you for standing up for yourself against the internets on this. I don't think you're insane, just brave. But also totally creepy.

QuoteI'm not wanting to pursue a sexual relationship with this girl. I believe in practicing sexual abstinence. That's right...I'm a virgin. And I'm proud of it.

While you're on your mission the girl you love will be penised by a boy she loves and enjoy it greatly and never give your bloated african-death-star diseased carcass a second thought.

Just keep this in mind while you're doing god's good work.

I was abstinent by choice for 3 years of my young life, not for religious but for philosophical reasons, and I don't regret it, I did it properly, I had no contact with women and didn't try to have placebo relationships where we'd hug and hold hands. The feeling of lust is the feeling of lust and you're a liar if you're telling me you don't lust after your love. If you do, you've sinned already, might as well penis and then ask for forgiveness from the lord, penis, ask, penis, ask, so on. If you're really serious about abstinence, you'll need to go the full way.

QuoteEven if things never do "work out" with this girl...I'll still be happy to have been her friend.

Though you might mean this, you're just putting yourself on the ground for people to walk over you. Your god might tell you this is a good thing to do. But life, you're alive because you're egotistical. You live for yourself. You have desires. If you want to fight them, try, I sure did. But go be a monk if you want to fight them. Don't lust after girls. Make up your mind. If you want to penis this girl - or any other, I suggest one your own age - then act like it and be an egotist. That's how it works. Love is mutual taking of advantage.

QuoteAnd it won't change the way I feel about her. She's the most amazing person I've ever met.

She'll be a 'lying harlot' to you in two years when she'll have had it by the whole soccer team while you pray to god to take away your boner. It'll be fun! Just wait!

QuoteIs it really so wrong of me to want to spend the rest of my life with her?

It's totally wrong to want to spend the rest of your life with a person that will not appreciate you, yes. You have a penis, it stands upright. Act like it. Be an animal, persue your happiness. Go have sex, and a drink, and spit on the bible while you're at it. Don't worry, god takes a joke, he made you to be like this.

QuoteWhat I want most though is for her to be happy. If she never falls for me, then so be it.

She'll never fall for you. You're clingy, obsessive, religiously fueled for confusion and dramatic. There WILL be women that will fall for this archetype though. Just not her. Leave her to the soccer team which will provide her easy non-commital sexual gratification without stupid valentines and dating. She just wants a penis, man. Not yours, though. Not god-penis.

QuoteI'm not going to deny my feelings just to appease your Creep-o-meters.

I don't want you to deny your feelings for this girl. I want you to deny god. Spit on him. Forget him. He's a liar. He gave you urges and then told you they're wrong. Forget christ, just have fun. Here's a card, call my number any time you want... I have a lodge full of like-minded friends I'd like to introduce you to... if you come, please wear black, or wear nothing at all.

Celebrate life. You got the spelling wrong. Not celibate life. Celebrate life.

QuoteBut you all need to understand that I don't want a relationship with this girl right now. I want to, when she is older, pursue a relationship with her, yes. And if the relationship never advances beyond the level of "good friends" then I'm cool with that. And now that I've stated that three different times....

Okay, you're not a paedo.

Wait though, what if she came craving for your manly assets RIGHT NOW. Like 'I was all wrong now I see how pure your feelings were for me, how much you love me like nobody else will, please help me undo your pants, I'm struggling with buttons' what would you do? DON'T LIE! It's love! Love is pure! God loves love! God wants you to be together! PEEENISSS HEEER



you paedo.

QuoteThe reason I spent $100 on her for Valentine's Day is because it was literally all the money I had.

holy shit.

QuoteI wanted to do something special for her. She didn't (doesn't) have a boyfriend, and so I knew that nobody was going to be giving her anything. I wanted to make her understand how much she means to me.

OBSESSIVE. she hasn't gone out with you. She means nothing to you. Your FANTASY of her means a lot to you. You're being dishoonest! You're being dishoonest! God disapproves.

QuoteSo now I'm sure you all think that I was just trying to win her over by giving her all this crap. Think what you want, it wasn't about that. I'm really serious about this girl.

monkey, to say you're serious about a person would first require a looong-ass period of time spent together with that person. You haven't had that. Because even if she were interested, even if you spent some time together, a 14-year-old girl changes every month, sometimes to a completely different person. You're grown-up and creepy. You can only be serious about someone you know. Go get to know someone. If you want, wait for this girl to be about 20 then get to know her and perhaps you'll be serious about her when you've been with her for a couple of years.

Or just go out and find a girl your age now and stop wasting time.

QuoteI care about her more than anything else in the world. She means more to me than anything else in the world.

CREEPY. LOSER. Stand up for your penis! You love your life! You enjoy your life! Your LIFE means more to you than anything else in the world! Everything else comes second place!



hey, tell me how it all works out.   

Ouch, Helm, just.. Ouch.

Though I can't help but agree with about.. 80% of it. Not a big fan of the soccer team though.

I agree the soccer team is a bit much.

Hahaha fucking hell, I just laughed so much.... and I respect Helm about five hundred billion percent more after this thread hahahahaaahahaha

And I agree with everything he says too. It's harsh but true.

The soccer team isn't a bit too much at all. Although maybe she's a fundy christian too...

I'm sorry Monkey, but, I've been in love once in my (so far pretty short) life and I know that it's not what you've described. It's not waiting for somebody to be a few years older so that you can shag her without being a paedophile. It's not about worshipping some fantasy of how you imagine that person would be if they were with you.

It's doing stupid things like enjoying the way your partner grumbles when the alarm goes off too early in the morning, or knowing the way they walk to the fridge and take stuff out, or the way they laugh and the way they like stupid things that you have no time for... like CACTUSES for instance... ¬¬ ... and when you look at them when you're in bed at night and just want to roll over to them and make love to them... and you do. Because you're both in love and it's awesome.

Love isn't waiting for a little girl to grow up so you can have sex with her legally/with her parents consent.

Argh! Thank you Helm! Although it was a harsh post, it was mostly true.

Why Vict0r are you in a similar situation?

Come on, spill it. Spill it all. If you tell me what's up I promise I'll tell you all my embarassing 'Helm at 22 considers penising a 16-year-old girl' story.

Naaah... I don't have any 14-year olds I want to penis in some years. Well... Hmm... Nope. I actually had a 13-year old who wanted me to penis her but I were disgusted by the whole situation. There were also a girl who went in one class below mine who had a crush on me, and even though it might not have been too weird in public eyes, I found it weird.

I guess I'm kinda retarded that way, because I let the smallest things get in the way for a serious relationship. Like now, a really good friend of mine who also happends to be a girl have told me that she likes me alot. I actually suspecs that she broke up with her boyfriend to be with me. You know why I won't take it to the next level? She's taller than me! :P I know it's ridiculous, but I can't help it. We're making out from time to time, but I just can't take it further.

And the actual reason I said "thank you" were because of the great post!

So come on! Spit it out, you greek!

I've had the taller thing. I didn't overcome it either.

my story is great:

I was alone for a few months, and looking, so on the way to a metal show (saw Atheist, they were AWESOME) I make an aquaintance with two girls on the train that looked like they were going to the show (blackclad, band tshirts, etc). One of them is stunningly beautiful. The other very pale, tall and ugly but not in the inoffensive generic plain-looking way, actually her appearane was generally unsettling. I'm not trying to be mean, but we've all had this so shut up, you're no better than me. Some people just disgust us.

Anyway, have I mentioned I am bad at discerning age? We talk a little and they show me where the live show place was, though I came early. I buy them drinks as means of thanks at a nearby coffee shop. The pretty girl is totally coming on to me, demands to sit next to me, is caressing my hair and all sorts of uncalled-for stuff within a period of 10 minutes. I converse a little with both of them, the older one is 20 years old, the younger one was 16. I instinctively sit a little further away from her and mumble something about jailbait. When I'm about to leave she asks for my number, I -flattered- make the mistake of giving the number. SHE WAS VERY PRETTY. I WANTED TO DEVOUR HER. SO SUE ME.

Now, I'll be frank, I was alone for a few months and I was grumbling to my friends about wanting to 'dissect woman' so I thought, if I don't have a go at it when I apportunities fall in my lap, then I'll be to blame for being alone. Yes, that's right, I went with it so I wouldn't lose my grumble rights. Still very half-hearted about it all, a new date is set up at the same place, two days later. Maybe she'll turn out to be charming and we'll have lots in common? Plus I'd get to usher her into the realms of perversion and depravity. gnaw gnaw gnaw


I've decided it was a bad idea within the first 5 minutes. She's DUMB. DUMB-DUMB, not immature. Stupid for her age even. She's the kind of person that I bet texts like this: "hey bbz i cnt believe her wat a cow you no i wud ave stuk up 4 you" or something. I learn that her parents are hard-right quasi-fascists, that she's failed a class at school (YES SHE GOES TO SCHOOL, OH GOD I HATE MYSELF WHAT AM I DOING) and other such interesting tidbits of information about her. Suddenly she's no longer a pretty girl in my eyes but a dumb child. She brought her older friend along which was annoying, but I thought since she's 16 maybe she brought backup to check me out thoroughly or something, anyway from a point and onwards I'm just trying to find a way out of there. Later the younger girl goes off to some other table for a while and leaves me and pale girl alone. Now by that point I am not only bored by the both of them, disheartened and feeling a very strong case of what-am-I-doing-here?itis, I am verging on a maligant mood. She talks to me and I am playing the 'there's nothing remarkable about me at all' routine, answering questions in single words and staring blankly at her belt buckle.

".........that's a nice belt buckle" I say. She says thanks.

The ice broken, she then proceeds to let me know about this boy in a band that frequents this caffee she likes, partly because that boys' sister comes about to say hello. She tells me she follows sports, like skiing. She tells me she and her mother argue. She asks me if I have a girlfriend. Now here I'm caught a bit off-guard. If I say yes then what the hell am I supposed to be doing there? If I say no, then I am leaving myself open to her to come on to me. So I reply with a very idiotic "Yyyyyees-n-nno. Depend's how you look at it." Then she tells me "well now, I guess since we know each other better I can tell you that I am bisexual".

I am not impressed. I am also not very interested in her sexuality but I reply "oh really. Do your like your girlfriend? She's cute isn't she?." She stares blankly at me, not amused. She follows it with "I like the sister of that boy in a band you met blah blah do you think that's a bit weird?" I follow that up with "no, not at all. That's a nice bundle of perversion right there. How about you go with both of them to bed so it's bisexuality, group sex, incest, and why don't you deny christ while you're at it to top it all of?"

There is a sea of silence between us. Crushing waves of blightful uncomfort parch my cracking skin. The utter unease that only two people in a forced conversation can bring upon themselves. I pay for the drinks and excuse myself. She asks won't I wait for whatever the hell the younger girls' name was and I say it's not necessary.

I leave that place forever.

I went home hoping that's the end of it, but she calls again two days later, the younger girl and she tells me she's sorry about stranding me the other time etc and I say it's okay. She asks if I'd like to see her again and I say 'I've decided you're a bit too young (AND DUMB. I didn't say it. I didn't say it!) for me" and she goes oh well can't we see each other as friends? I end this conversation with "I don't need any more friends."

That is my story!

Yes... The taller thing is a bitch. I know that it prolly won't be a problem, but I just can't take it. And the fact that I am a relatively low person makes the serious part of my love life a hell some times.

Your story was quite interresting. It seems like you learnt alot from it aswell. I hate it when you suddenly discover something you hate about someone you used to be attracted to.

Taller is intimidating, but shorter causes back pain.

I require women to be within 1 inch of my height to even consider going out with them.

Well, too short could of course cause a problem, but it's not something I usually think about.

As Tommy Chong once said:

"The ideal woman is three and a half feet tall, with no teeth, and a flat head where I can rest my beer."

Helm, I bow to your disection of Monkey's plight and to your story of utter weirdness.

And to Matt, for it was his innocent posting of a low-res photo that started this magical mystery tour.

The mundanity of life has been bathed in strange new hues, and for that I am thankful.

Helmz... you are the King of demeaning  Pedos :D  GJ.

Heres a quote from another thread that was directed at me just because i stated that being a noob sucks!

QuoteThis is one hell of a nice community, you should be thankful you're a part of it.

I thought this was a nice community too, untill i read through this thread. Now i realise theres alot of freaky cunts here... The rest of you seem fine tho :D

This is one of those things the Internet is making worse. Now we have a mass of Computer nerds who rarely leave their PCs, view all sorts of dodgy crap online and when they finally get away from the PC they have no skill at talking to girls thier own age and have to resort to attempting to seduce young girls. No longer are the Catholic Priests the biggest Pedophiles in the world, i fear its becoming Computer nerds, and being that there is alot more of them than priests, the world is in serious trrouble..

Fee

I think you should not adress me anymore.

I think ill adress who i want when i want!

At least learn to spell first. Grammar would be great as well, but we can't set our hopes too high.

Fee if you want to carry on talking to me I'll have to let you know how I feel about your opinions. You might not like that.

It almost comes across as if you're projecting, Fee. Your relationship's age differential is only a couple of birthdays away from a Matt-like situation. You probably realise that.

Just how mature is this 19 year old that looks like a 15 year old that you're sleeping with? If she's as grown up as my 19 year old sister then you're still sleeping with someone who is physically and mentally a "CHILD", in my personal, arbitrary definition of a child. You "pedo".

I didn't realise the community was full of child abusers. I suppose this proves that being a nerd leads to molesting little girls!
[/sarcasm]


See how ridiculous this kind of attitude is? Whatever your opinion on the best age for a girl to be, nobody here is interested in having sex with children, and most people would prefer a partner around their own age. There are no hard and fast rules with people. I can't see myself with a 16 year old girl, or a 17 year old one, and even most 21 year old girls seem a little stupid to me, but there are millions of people that don't fit my very generalised line of thinking.

All I can see in the Matt (or monkey) situation is a (probably) inexperienced guy that has fallen for a girl who is a bit too young for him, not amazingly seedy, but it probably won't work out because the age difference is too big, oh well. Nobody in this thread is a horrible, despicable person that deserves to be called names.

People seem to be screaming "AGE OF CONSENT" around here.  Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD.


Bt

I think a 5 years difference is fine to me.  :P

So 17 and 12 is fine with you, Fatal Fury?

As has been repeated, it's not about the numerical age difference; the concern is the different psychological (and sometimes physical) states of the participants.

@Helm's post to me: Omg. LAWL! ;D Best. Post. Ever.

Actually I have to disagree with Helm on all the anti-religion bits he said. I believe what I believe. Helm's penis isn't going to change that. Oh boy I just set myself up with that one.

We go to church together. We've known each other for about two and a half years. And she wouldn't do it with the soccer team. In fact, she's pretty serious about abstinence herself. And sorry Helm, but even if she wanted to right now, I'd have to turn her down. I can't say that I'm completely sure that I could. I've never been in the situation. But it's something I believe in, and it's something I would stand up to fight for. Probably at least as much as Helm fights for his penis.

I guess I stopped [reading] one page short. But I really do have to be going soon. In any case, I've always been kind of an obsessive guy. Sure, creepy as hell...but it's fun. :P

This girl agreed to go out with me at least once...before Valentine's Day came around. So you can forget the idea that I pressured her into it by buying her all this stuff.

I also have to dispute the idea that I don't know her because "a 14-year-old girl changes every month". I haven't stated this one yet, because I'm sure it will stir up all kinds of...name calling and whatnot. But the fact is...I lived with this girl for 3 1/2 months last year. We talk pretty much every day. And regardless of whether she does like me more than a friend or not, I know for a fact that I'm one of her best friends. She's told me so. She's shown me as much. She has on multiple occasions chosen to talk to me versus other friends...old boyfriends for whom she still has feelings...etc.

You can speculate all you want. But this comes down to two simple facts: 1) you don't know me, 2) you don't know her. Due to point 1, you can't even form a proper hypothesis about what all this obsessive behaviour really amounts to. I like this girl, but it doesn't mean that I would die if she doesn't want to get married to me the day she turns 18. I've already said that if this "crush" never goes anywhere that I'd be happy to just be her friend. And in spite of that, I was called a liar.

Due to point 2, you can't get a relevant reading on your Creep-o-meters. All I know is what she's told me. And all that you know is what I've told you. So you think you can judge me based on the fragment of the facts that you have all suddenly become experts on?

Another thing you seem to be focusing...locking in on....is that right now she's only 14. She'll be 15 in less than a month, but it doesn't matter. Sure, 19 and 15 isn't the same as 22 and 18. I understand that. But why should the numbers be such a huge factor? I don't like her because of her age. I like her for who she is. We're not going to be getting involved in ANY type of relationship any time soon, so what difference does it make that I have feelings for her? The absolute earliest we may possibly become involved in even a "bf/gf relationship" is more than two years away. At that point I would be 21 and she would be 17. At the youngest.

So then knowing that I have feelings for her suddenly turns me into a paedo. I understand. Because it doesn't make any difference that I actually want to wait to even consider becoming involved in a relationship. It doesn't matter that I want to wait until we are both of a more suitable age. What matters is that I have feelings for her already. I understand now. Thank you for showing me the error in my ways. Perhaps I'll just join Helm's penis club and we can go Penis Clubbing together. ToGetHer. Yes. I did that on purpose. Because I'm such a horrific paedophile.

At a certain age gap though the various uncalculable modifiers tend to edge towards a definite 'creepy' though. I can imagine 30 different ways a girl that is 17 is ready to have sex with a 25 year old, though I might not enjoy the concept on the abstract. But I cannot imagine a single case where it'd be okay and understandable under the particular circumstances for a 30 year old man to have sex with a 12 year old girl.

It is at that threshold towards certainty that most societies concerned with human rights draw a line, and call it a law.

EDIT: this isn't in reply to you, monkey, it's to the post before you. Hi, btw. I'll post about what you said later. I just wanted to let you know that of course all 'judgement' on you is obviously on very weak ground. This is the internet and all.

Quote from: voh on Sun 22/04/2007 04:53:22
So 17 and 12 is fine with you, Fatal Fury?

Sure, why not. I am 5 years younger than my girlfriend after all. Since I was 13 and she was 18 when we were going out, that 17 and 12 you mentioned might be the limit for me. If 11 and 16, I'd say no.  :)

Quote from: Fee on Sat 21/04/2007 02:27:34
I believe several teachers have been jailed for that recently. One even hooked back up with they guy after she was released. If he wasnt such an impressionable age at the time they were sleeping together, i doubt the would have go together after the jail.

Your 16 and you can look if you want, I'm 26 and can look all i want also. Difference is at 16, you can do somthing about it.

Its when I use my previous experience to get young girls into bed that i am doing the wrong thing.

Look at it like this..
Your 16. Probly in school with a part time job (if any) no car (or a small first car) and littel experience with girls.
Im 26 with a fill time job as an Engineer, nice V8 Falcon and ive had several partners of varing age.

Say you and I are competing for the same 16 year old girl...

You buy her a rose and some Chocolates.
I buy her a dozen roses, some designer chocolares, ballons, teddybears ect.

You pick her up from school in your mothers Hyundai.
I pick her up in my Hoted up Ford.

You struggle to find the correct words to tell her how you feel due to lack of experience.
I tell her how i feel and make it sound all romantic and how we were destened to be together.

You take her to McDonalds for a dinner date.
I take her to a 5 star restraunt.


Dispite the fact you are most likely suited to someone your own age and have expressed your desires to have some sort of relationship with this girl, she barely notices because I used my recources and experience to overwealm your efforts. Hardly fair is it?

If an "old man" (like me lol) is spoling a young girl rotten, lavishing attention and gifts ect on to her they are clearly using their experience and recources to take advantage of someone at an impressionable age.

Maybe i dont explain myself right, I'm not the best when it comes to reading and writing, but i think you should see what i mean. No i better go before i get into trrouble lol...

Fee

Heh, is this the proof that girls, especially young girls are really soft touch and suasible, therefore totally usable and naive? You could buy them with expensive gifts and a fancy car. Plus also the fact that they are unexperienced and therefore any relationship is like love to them.
Ok, I am maybe little unexperienced in relationships too, I am only 18, but heck, I have my limits. 2 year gap is enough for me, at least so far. So anything over 2 years is no-no to me. But as i get older, I am shure that gap  expands a lot, maybe even 10 years. But age gap in young age is a big  thing!


But 18 year old girl going out with a 13 year old??? Gosh, are you shure she didn't play mom and kid with you, Fatal Fury? I have seen 16 year olds look 14 year olds, but even that wasn't anything good.

She was 18 and you were 13? How exceedingly odd. What kind of needs can a young woman have to make her turn to a - barely - pubescent boy? And just touching you could have got her arrested.
Even if you happen to be abnormally mature for your age (and bodily developed) it's still an extreme situation.

Maybe a lot of the commotion in this thread stems from the fact that we interpret certain terms differently in different countries and cultures. I know Americans tend to be liberal with phrases like "seeing", "going out" and "dating", and they can more or less apply to just having milkshakes together. It also appears as if Americans can continue to date casually for very long, and that this state needn't develop in any direction.
In Sweden, you seldom date in a purely casual way more than maybe once; after that you either enter some sort of relationship or you drop it, and refer to eachother as friends.
Of all the relationships I know of (including my own), none have been preceded by a lengthy dating-phase.

Interesting point; I wasn't aware of the cultural differences. I wonder if we Americans extend the casual dating because we don't want to move too fast, or because we feel we always have to be in a relationship and it's easier to maintain casual ones? or something else entirely?

@Andail: That's about how it's here in Norway aswell. The longest I've "dated" someone was maybe 3 or 4 days, but by the second time we saw eachother we were already making out casually.

@monkey: You sound like you are waiting for her and that you think she is the love of your life. Let it go man! Get some experience before you choose 'the one'! :)

Quote from: Helm on Sun 22/04/2007 05:05:15
I can imagine 30 different ways a girl that is 17 is ready to have sex with a 25 year old, though I might not enjoy the concept on the abstract.

Yeah, kids tend to be more limber, the younger they are.

 ;D

You know what? time to speak my mind really...

Usually the problem of age is the idea that the older could take advantage of the younger on. This is the obvious and only problem to me, cause:

If an 18 year old likes/loves/adores a 14 year old then he knows something (Monkey). If he decides to wait a couple of years, so much better. If the girl is immature and dumb, then the 18 year old simply deserves it! If the 18 year old if immature then the 14 year old deserve it.

As long as there is no sexual relationship and the parents know I see no problem really.

Same with 25, 16 year old. Yes, the age gap is big (rather huge), and yes there should be problems to be seen for anyone who doesn't know them two.

BUT:

A 16 year old mature girl, that works in an adult enviroment, could very well cope with a 25 year old who just started working, or has limited experience.

All theories point that age gap is a problem, especially in the younger ages (cause really let's face it, sexually there would be no problem with me (29) and a girl of 20-22. but of course I come bundled with kids and problems, so the girl wouldn't like me that way ;))

Same thing pretty much happened with me and my wife, who is 3 years older (not a great age gap really). I met here when I was 22 and she was 25! I had no idea she was so "old", but then  Ididn't mind, until she told me bluntly that I had no idea what I was going into and that she was in an age, that had finished university, working, etc, while I was still a student with a long way to go. For all she knew she could be looking for a husband to bear children, not another boyfriend. Finaly, things went my/our way, we stayed together and children came (admitidately a bit early maybe for me, mostly for financial reasons, not maturity or anything!)

Things are fine as they are now, still financial problems are here, but I'm a full grown family man now. Looking back to myself 4 years ago, I think I was totally nuts, to go on to this thing. (Marrying while in army with no job, no real degree, with the will to study for 4 years in the UK. Having a child while in the army under the absolutely same circumstances. Moving abroad with no job, as a student, with the whole family).

Yet we did it and I value those years simply put.

Bottom line. Problem with age gape (although obvious to the outsiders), needs to be considered in each case individually. Sure 25-16 seems huge, but things could still be going great for both of them and all their friends, so why not?

similary closer ages, can have huge(r) problems that could be unbearable.

As long as no one is taking advantage of no one I see nothing wrong (and the parents of non adults know). Even worst 15-16 year olds are much worst than an 18 year old making a 100$ present (which could be akward of course ;))

that's all from me for now

I think all of you grown men should stop putting these teenage girls up on paedostals.

Funny thread, everyone is getting so worked up :)

Hot or not? You play a 24 year old man's conscience as he decides which girl to seduce! Do you go for...

Girl number A
(http://english.people.com.cn/200412/13/images/1212_D05.jpg)


Girl number B
(http://myspace-983.vo.llnwd.net/00980/38/92/980042983_l.jpg)

Girl number C
(http://www.islandgazette.net/photo/pictures/images10202004/Page-1B-Island-Girl.jpg)

or

Girl number D
(http://www.jinasgym.org/Pictures/jinasalon.jpg)

Correct answers to....no wait, no more Matt jokes allowed.

I haven't been here in a while, but reading this thread has been quite an amusing diversion for me. Helm's posts in particular.

Quote from: Nikolas on Sun 22/04/2007 18:10:49
but of course I come bundled with kids and problems, so the girl wouldn't like me that way ;))

That's an interesting choise of words for referring to your wife there ;)

Oh, and for m0ds... When it comes to choosing girls by looks and only that, I wouldn't go for any of them. If I have to make a choise though, I'd say, not A (Ilike the scarf thought) or D... Now who did I offend?

Hey Monkey. Guess what.

QuoteBest. Post. Ever.

Hey, I wanted to say something about that. I'm good at making fun of people, a skill solely honed on the internet on places far less hospitable than this. I have the inclination, though I reign it in usually because simply this isn't the place for it, and generally it's a waste of time although it may be humourous. The saving grace of how I treated you in my last post, which was completely uncalled for (like this post too) is that there's a honesty under the 'lol, internet!' attitude. I'm giving you a piece of my mind because I was in a similar situation and I wanna help. I'm levelling with you. I call you creepy and a loser and a paedo, but you're just a guy in a set of circumstances and you're trying to make do. The laughs aside, I'm on your cock's side. I want you to be happy. This will not happen many times to you on the internet. Usually people just take advantage of the poor fool who for any reason says on the internet 'hey, this happened to me and it could be taken the wrong way, hehe' like you did.

That being said, we can drop the subject at any time you want.

Quote from: monkey_05_06 link=topic=30976.msg397374#msg397374
Actually I have to disagree with Helm on all the anti-religion bits he said. I believe what I believe. Helm's penis isn't going to change that. Oh boy I just set myself up with that one.

Though my penis, formidable as it is, can be very convincing, I am happy you don't exactly drop your beliefs because some random person on the internet wrote you a post about being creepy. You would be a total waste of a human being if you said '...deny... christ? YES I WILL DO AS YOU SAY!' or something. I take your religious beliefs seriously, though I may not share them and you would do best to take my 'satanic lodge' stuff with a boulder of salt because it's mostly metaphor or reactionism or silly fun. I ain't no anti-christian, though I admit to having no faith in any sort of God. Otherwise, my morality isn't much different from most people's. I try to enjoy myself without hurting others. That's what 99% of christians do anyway, so why hold on to divine baggage?

QuoteWe go to church together.

Christ isn't your saviour, he is a lifeless concept! Make a mockery of him! You didn't come in this world with any other purpose than to excert your biological leanings, to dominate. Let loose the nocturnal beast inside! Blessed are the sick, that lead life of sin! Blessed are we!

Meet her in the church at night. Deflower her on the altar, let the virgin blood be sacrifice to a different lord below!

Seriously, she'll love the new Monkey much more. You can keep the christian facade if you want, that you service a different master (lord priamus from the depths, the goat with the upright member that spits the life-giving seed) needs only be your own secret knowledge. The happiest people are those that overcome this silly concept of 'hypocrisy' and happily engage in totally contradictive behaviours to suit their pleasures, without a second thought given to moral consistency and such. Morality is something we will always fail to uphold to the letter exactly because it is ideal and we're only made of flesh, and falter. Be adaptive. Don't have opinions, only search for solutions. Don't try to fit the world inside your worldview. The strain that the world will place on it will lead you to suffer.

That's not to say you'd be able to discard your morality anyway. You've already been programmed by your parents and peers, you probably feel bad when you hurt people. Congratulations, you're like most of us then. The words don't matter. When you hurt someone, you'll feel bad and want to fix things. You don't have to dress it up in some high and mighty divinely inspired moral code. Just do it. Don't hurt people, and when you do, deal with it like a man.

Otherwise have fun.

QuoteWe've known each other for about two and a half years.

You've known her since she was ELEVEN you fucking cradle snatcher?! You're going to hell.

QuoteAnd she wouldn't do it with the soccer team. In fact, she's pretty serious about abstinence herself.

I'll tell you this, monkey. When puberty hits you might have dodged it (perhaps you are just abstinent by ugly, not by choice. Post a picture) but she might not deny her hormones. It's pretty easy to discard years of religious indoctorination the moment it just feels totally wrong. Sexual urges are natural. They take over and suddenly your bullshit talk seems quite nonsensical. And you know what? That's probably better. Because a teenager that goes through his teens without any sort of sexual outlet will grow up with severe emotional problems. Do you want that for her? Didn't you say you love her? What if the best thing for her, for her freedom and happiness, is to drop this abstinence business?.

What if the best thing for her is the soccer team. Not you holding hands.

QuoteAnd sorry Helm, but even if she wanted to right now, I'd have to turn her down.

I admire the words, though I don't believe them.

QuoteI can't say that I'm completely sure that I could. I've never been in the situation. But it's something I believe in, and it's something I would stand up to fight for. Probably at least as much as Helm fights for his penis.

Again, grade A for idealism, but you're only hurting yourself. If you think hurting yourself for a purpose assigns higher meaning to your life... you're probably correct. However, you will find later on in life that just high meanings are not very fulfilling. Perhaps you'll do on a steady diet of nothing. As I said, perhaps you're really ugly so it's a win/win situation for you.

QuoteThis girl agreed to go out with me at least once...before Valentine's Day came around. So you can forget the idea that I pressured her into it by buying her all this stuff.

God do you hear yourself? Observe the wording you're using. 'Agreed to go out with me AT LEAST once'. DESPERATE. Desperate, hopeless and creepy. Where's your pride? Where's your desire to be loved, adored to have women worship your penis like they rightly should? (unless you're ugly or something). You won't believe how happy you will feel when you're in a relationship with an equal, who respects you and loves you and you do the same without any sort of cohersion or general haggling. Agreed to go out with you AT LEAST ONCE? No shit, man. Better buy her a house.

My only hope is that by the time her 'AT LEAST ONCE' comes about, you will have been on tens of dates with people who liked you and will not be bothered to go out with her yourself. The penis hurts when punched, Monkey. And every time you haggle for a date with this girl, she's punching you in the penis. Have some penis dignity. If you don't, then once you will have to use it it might no longer stand upright as it youthfully had, so many times ignored by you


wait, I just thought of something. If you're abstinent, does that mean you don't masturbate?

QuoteI haven't stated this one yet, because I'm sure it will stir up all kinds of...name calling and whatnot.

I wander what this leads to.

QuoteBut the fact is...

Hmm hm hm hm.

QuoteI lived with this girl for 3 1/2 months last year.

Holy shit! You creepy creepy paedophile. Since she was 9 and a half?! I am telling you, if I were this girls' father, christian or no christian I'd beat you half-dead. How... how the hell? What why are you living together? Are you related? Is she a cousin or something? I'll let you off the hook if she's a cousin since that sort of moral tabboo has no effect on me, but god-damn, it's starting to pile up. You're in a messy spot.

QuoteWe talk pretty much every day.

WHAT did you talk about with a 9 year old? Pokemon? Barbies? It's so hard for me to not start to dislike you inside. Please explain to me so I can rest easier how this all is justified. Are you... I don't know. How. What? uh

QuoteAnd regardless of whether she does like me more than a friend or not

Okay now I will tell you a hard truth about life: if you're friends with a girl a few years younger than you, and you spend say a few summers with them being friends and shit, before you've had a boner and all so it's all childlike etc, and then you grow up a little and you have your first desires, that girl? You totally love her now. And she totally loves you too. That's how it goes. Spend enough time with an agreeable girl as a child and you will love her. You will want to be with her and she with you. That's how first sexual experiences happen most of the time. Two kids growing from friendship to attraction, well before they realize the implications.

So, in your case? That a 13 year old TOLD YOU SHE SEES YOU AS A FRIEND? That these 4 years of friendship didn't amagalmate into sexual desire? It means you fucking TERRIFY HER. That she will never not in a million years touch you erotically, that you are a problem she tries desperately to keep at arm's length out of oh, a misplaced sense of charity that you misconstrue for 'perhaps one day' affection.

You have FAILED. Your childhood flirting has been for NOTHING, and this cannot change. Pick up your pieces and move on. She doesn't want you. She doesn't want you. She doesn't want you. She doesn't want you. She doesn't want you. She doesn't want you.


I'm sorry.

QuoteI know for a fact that I'm one of her best friends.

You know it for a FACT. Words betray your desperation. There are no FACTS when dealing with emotions, jerk.

QuoteShe's told me so.

A girl once told me I'm the man of her dreams, then went off to get penised by a good friend of mine.

QuoteShe's shown me as much. She has on multiple occasions chosen to talk to me versus other friends...old boyfriends for whom she still has feelings...etc.

So you're her 'dear diary' perhaps. You'll grow to regret this position soon enough. It's an awful place to be. JUST YOU FUCKIN' WAIT. JUST YOU WAIT. Just wait for when she comes to you all near-crying and shit and she says she needs someone to talk to and you go 'sure honey, I'll be your dear diary' and she "goes oh you're such a good friend, I have nobody else that will listen to me. Yesterday I was with Paul and we were uh... fooling around, and he um, h-he put it... from the back. OH MONKEY IT HURT SO BAD! IT HURT SO BAD, BUT GOOD AT THE SAME TIME, OH I AM SO CONFLICTED!


I think I love Paul."


Just you wait.

Quotetwo simple facts: 1) you don't know me, 2) you don't know her. Due to point 1, you can't even form a proper hypothesis about what all this obsessive behaviour really amounts to.

Yeah yeah you're right. I'm no behavioural scientist, I am not trying to make a 'proper hypothesis'. I'm just telling you things, seeing what bounces off. You're being a good sport and will probably see things from a different vantage point due to it, though I don't expect anything to stick. It's okay. I am not trying to attack you with any of this.

QuoteI like this girl, but it doesn't mean that I would die if she doesn't want to get married to me the day she turns 18. I've already said that if this "crush" never goes anywhere that I'd be happy to just be her friend. And in spite of that, I was called a liar.

That's all-right. You be her friend while Paul the football team captain... assaults her. Enjoy life without merit. God approves.

QuoteDue to point 2, you can't get a relevant reading on your Creep-o-meters. All I know is what she's told me. And all that you know is what I've told you. So you think you can judge me based on the fragment of the facts that you have all suddenly become experts on?

Who is these 'all' you're talking to. I'm just here, man. There are no other 'experts'. I am here for you. I will beat up Paul for you. Perhaps. Is he big? He's gotta be big if he's in the football team.

QuoteI don't like her because of her age. I like her for who she is. We're not going to be getting involved in ANY type of relationship any time soon, so what difference does it make that I have feelings for her? The absolute earliest we may possibly become involved in even a "bf/gf relationship" is more than two years away. At that point I would be 21 and she would be 17. At the youngest.

Okay this is interesting because it's like other people said, in der europa, we don't say 'dating' and stuff unless it means it'll get intimate. There's a local saying that if you go out with a girl more than 3 times without anything happening, then you're now girlfriends and can go buy underwear together and gossip about men. If that's what you're talking about okay. I'd be less... vocal, in your position, and just keep sticking around until she's grown-up enough to be with, personally, but you have to burst out with all this overeager love business. Okay, I guess.

Just be ready for when she gets her first real boyfriend while you're stuck riding shotgun in the friend seat. It'll be great. You'll enjoy pain.

QuoteThank you for showing me the error in my ways. Perhaps I'll just join Helm's penis club and we can go Penis Clubbing together.

The offer still stands.

QuoteToGetHer.

Holy shit I'm not gangbanging a 14 year old, you sick depraved christian.

I blame pop culture http://www.hollywoodgrind.com/?p=5355

Fuck me Monkey, you're a fucking paedo, no shit... sort yourself out...

(http://myspace-983.vo.llnwd.net/00980/38/92/980042983_l.jpg)

I like the moist lips. See here I can't tell what the age is. I could get in trouble. But I'm sure in conversing with her I'd understand how old she is in 5 minutes.

Still. Moist lips. mm

QuoteYou'll enjoy pain.

And sex. Just don't mix.

Quote from: vict0r on Sun 22/04/2007 19:58:03

QuoteYou'll enjoy pain.

And sex. Just don't mix.

Oh pfft it, a bit of spanking and red meat is where it's at ;)

Quote from: vict0r on Sun 22/04/2007 19:58:03

QuoteYou'll enjoy pain.

And sex. Just don't mix

.. too much.

Quote from: Tuomas on Sun 22/04/2007 19:47:09
I blame pop culture http://www.hollywoodgrind.com/?p=5355

I blame Serge Kreutz.
http://www.sexualfront.com/

Helm, you might have misunderstood one of Monkey's quotes there. The girl was 13 when they 'lived together for 3 and 1/2 months'. You probably read it 'I lived with her for 3 1/2 years' or something.

Also, Yufster and Helm get 2 minutes in the penalty box for strong language. Give the cuss-words a break in the future, will ya'.

Mods, they all look fairly young to me, especially the last one.

Helm, I am enjoying the bitter truth you lay down so mercilessly in this thread.

Quote from: Helm on Sun 22/04/2007 19:12:38

QuoteI lived with this girl for 3 1/2 months last year.

Holy shit! You creepy creepy paedophile. Since she was 9 and a half?! I am telling you, if I were this girls' father, christian or no christian I'd beat you half-dead. How... how the hell? What why are you living together? Are you related? Is she a cousin or something? I'll let you off the hook if she's a cousin since that sort of moral tabboo has no effect on me, but god-damn, it's starting to pile up. You're in a messy spot.

I'm not sure but perhaps he meant three and a half months and not three years and, uh, half a month.

EDIT: All right Andail said it.

In that case living with someone for 3 months when they're 13 doesn't mean much.

I also enjoy the political correctness of calling me on saying 'fuckin' when I also talk about dark lords and sacrificing of virgins, but eh, it's a forum, it needs moderating.

Hehehe :) Well, Helm, I think you may be over-stepping the boundaries but only very slightly! The first girl was the "ideal" (as this thread may have you beleive) choice at 20 years old, your choice is 18 years old, the next 16 and the last 14. They do look very young all of them, but I think that's a challenge men face these days. Though I agree after a bit of conversation you can generally get a good picture of someones mental stability/maturity. With guys also :) Thanks for taking part! I leave this thread alone now :p

Yay! I chose wisely! Now what's the prize?

Quote from: m0ds on Sun 22/04/2007 22:13:14
The first girl was the "ideal" (as this thread may have you beleive) choice at 20 years old, your choice is 18 years old, the next 16 and the last 14.

So all of them are ok as far as I'm conserned.

I would've thought A or D was the youngest actually. I would've chosen C (and not because of the bewbies, just because her face was the least ugly).

And if C is the same age of me... excellent, I'm well adjusted! : D

yay, you can drown yourself in premature boobies!

She was 12 when we met (February 2005; she turned 13 that year) but I didn't ever really like her as "more than a friend" until February this year (2007). I think I may have said something about this.

The reason I mentioned that we lived together at one point is because I was attempting to make a point that perhaps I do know a bit more about this girl than you've given me credit. I'm going to leave that open. Tear me apart.

I don't see it as hurting myself to abstain from sexual relations (up to and including with my hands....). There's no real benefit to having premarital sex. Except perhaps you'll know what to expect...:o...but it's never been something that I felt was....for me. Try as you might, I doubt I'll be hopping aboard the Penisland Express with you anytime soon Helm.

Yes...I've never had a girlfriend before. I'm very desperate....

The reason I stated the bit about agreeing to go with me 'AT LEAST ONCE' is that everyone seemed to think that I was pressuring her into this relationship that she obviously didn't want. Here's how it went:

monkey: "When I get back from my [two year] mission [on the Death Star], will you go out with me?"

girl: "Yeah."

There wasn't any pressuring. I asked, and she agreed. Yeah...quote just that sentence. "I asked, and she agreed." Use that to fulfill your anti-monkey fantasies. Don't worry...I don't mind.

We haven't known each other for four years. And I doubt that just because she hasn't asked me to "penis her" means that I terrify her. On multiple occasions she has gone out of her way to talk to me. Because we're friends. And believe it or not, friends do that.

Your usage of the name Paul is particularly disturbing. Quite frightening in fact. Your obsession with incest is at least comparably creepy to my apparent paedophilia (my desire to have relations in the future with an adult that is currently a minor).

Of course I haven't mentioned it, but it is clear that your powers of telepathy have revealed the fact that both her father and her her brother are named Paul (Sr. and Jr. respectively).

There's also this idea floating around that I've definitively decided that she is 'the one'. Just because I care about her doesn't mean I've decided she's 'the one'. This opens up a good opportunity for me to discuss some things that don't really matter. See, it just makes it look like a desperate attempt at clinging to some sanity.

All night tonight at work I was doing my best to chat up one of my coworkers. We actually managed to hold an interesting, yet rather broken discussion. I don't really know why, in fact I questioned why I was so desperately (oooh there's that word again) trying to get her to open up to me.

Mmmmm...I'm giving you all some very juicy material to work with. I don't even care any more. I don't know why I have to justify myself to you people. But I'm still giving it a hell of a shot even as tired as I am.

Eat me alive.

[EDIT:]

Corrected 2004 to 2005.

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Mon 23/04/2007 06:06:11There's no real benefit to having premarital sex.

Have fun waving goodnight to your sexually incompatible wife as you climb into your separate bed while your urges spiral out of control driving you to masturbation, fantasies of other women, prostitutes, and finally a messy divorce!

I'm glad I realized my incompatibilities with my previous serious and long-term girlfriend (which led to the afore-mentioned masturbation, fantasies of other women, and messy break up... no prostitutes, I swear!) before our relationship moved into an even more serious stage of commitment.  The issues between us were never emotional or intellectual.  If she and I had decided to remain abstinent until marriage for some reason, I would almost certainly be perfectly miserable by now and I would certainly have never found my wife, with whom I'm both emotionally and sexually compatible.  Oh, and RRRAAAAWWWRRRRR!

QuoteYour usage of the name Paul is particularly disturbing.

Of course I haven't mentioned it, but it is clear that your powers of telepathy have revealed the fact that both her father and her her brother are named Paul (Sr. and Jr. respectively).

Hahahahahahahaha ;D


Oh, and I love (the irony of) your avatar monkey! monkey_05_06: Coming summer 2009

There's absolutely no idea in losing your virginity too early, but that time should be based on your own sense of security and confidence. Don't let anyone else, parents, society or God decide when you're ready.

I have a fair amount of experience when it comes to the opposite sex, but I still remained a virgin for very long (at least in the fullest definition of the term) and never felt any pressure to lose that title. In return, sex has always been rather undramatic for me, and I can't even recall exactly which day might have seen my debute (all this doesn't mean I don't take it seriously; I'm deadly faithful).
In order to perform well, you need to relax a bit and see it more like playing than making promises to God. If you set all your hopes to the wedding night, chances are you'll be disappointed. Especially women often need to "learn" to enjoy sex, and men need to learn how to make women enjoy (and as a reward for this practice, God gave women the ability to enjoy sex much more than men can ever hope to, once they learn the routine).

Speaking of which, does God allow people to satisfy themselves and eachother as long as there is no penetration involved? The subtler aspects of satisfaction are just a matter of training; if you're good you can make your partner come without even taking your clothes off.

Wasted or "spilled" seed is a sin, so, no. God doesn't allowed men to masturbate to the point of orgasm.

Which is extremely unhealthy. And also, doesn't make sense, because of course all that semen dies anyway doesn't it? And gets replaced/renewed every couple of weeks/months. So not only is your semen being completely wasted, you're not even getting a bit of a kick out of it. In fact, regular masturbation is beneficial to your health, gets your heart pumping etc... and I'm quite sure it helps keep sperm production good and healthy.

People need to review what it is exactly that they think God wants of them, because it's getting fucking stupid.

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Mon 23/04/2007 06:06:11
Tear me apart.

Your last post doesn't leave you open to hilarity. It just becomes a good point to discuss religious abstinence and such, as people have after it you see. I won't play the part of the goatlord anymore, it's getting old. Just straight-up advice now if you want it.

QuoteI don't see it as hurting myself to abstain from sexual relations (up to and including with my hands....).

Having done that, yes you're hurting yourself. You're upsetting your biology to a great extent, not to mention the psychological damage you're doing to yourself by not engaging in a practise that nature/God/the aliens gave us to blow off some steam. That's right. Monkeys play with their dicks to relax. Orgasms are relaxing. They take the edge of so many things in a given day that can slowly and subtly but acutely surely drive you mad. I've been close to that, I know what I'm talking about.

This is important. I have experience with abstinence, and no-masturbation abstinence too. It's a hilarious story the last one, ask me to tell it to you and I will. It explains how stupid your brain gets when totally depraved of the good things in life.

QuoteThere's no real benefit to having premarital sex. Except perhaps you'll know what to expect...:o

You're leaving out the obvious benefit that it's very nice with the right partner, that it relaxes and gives you strength to face various day-to-day adversities. That there's generally nothing nicer after a full and tiring day to be able to slip into a warm bed with a person that loves you and enjoy their attentions. Pleasant orgasms and an easy death indeed.

Quote...but it's never been something that I felt was....for me.

You're probably repressed.

QuoteTry as you might, I doubt I'll be hopping aboard the Penisland Express with you anytime soon Helm.

Whatever, man. I am not trying to make your decisions for you, I'm just trying to help.

QuoteYes...I've never had a girlfriend before. I'm very desperate....

Poooost. A piiictuuure. Of yourseeeeeelf.

QuoteThe reason I stated the bit about agreeing to go with me 'AT LEAST ONCE' is that everyone seemed to think that I was pressuring her into this relationship that she obviously didn't want. Here's how it went:

But you're neglecting all the backstory to this. Obviously there's been some obsessive behaviour if you're telling me 'she's the one' and 'you want to spend the rest of your life together with her' and you spend 100 bucks on her icecream.

QuoteYour usage of the name Paul is particularly disturbing. Quite frightening in fact. Your obsession with incest is at least comparably creepy to my apparent paedophilia (my desire to have relations in the future with an adult that is currently a minor). Of course I haven't mentioned it, but it is clear that your powers of telepathy have revealed the fact that both her father and her her brother are named Paul (Sr. and Jr. respectively).

Wait a moment, how am I to blame for making a random name up that ended up being the name of her father? I don't condone father/daughter relationships because I believe they're obviously based on the taking advantage of a minor by an adult and as such are no different - but even worse because they abuse the safety of a parental relationship - than other cases of paedophilia. But brothers, cousins, whatevers can do whatever they want, and often do.

The taboo of incest is based on the fact of flawed birth because of same blood mixed. However two people don't have to have babies because they have sex. It falls under 'adults enjoying themselves responsibly' for me and therefore is more a mild kink (like sodomy, for example) than it is a strong and mentally degrading perversion as is to have your way with children.

QuoteThere's also this idea floating around that I've definitively decided that she is 'the one'. Just because I care about her doesn't mean I've decided she's 'the one'.

I am sorry monkey. You're backpedalling now. You clearly said you want to spend the rest of your life with her and love her more than life itself. If that's not being the 'one' then what is? Though I think it's good you're backpedalling, perhaps you're starting to see how impossible your dramatic demands of her and the 'future relationship' with her are.

I really think the way of life you've chosen, what with religious abstinence is one you'll regret later. Do you want to discuss your religious beliefs from the bottom up, perhaps? I'm up for it. I promise I'll keep the 'black lodge' stuff to a minimum. There's a possibility God doesn't want you to keep your penis dry, though. Can you understand how big a mistake it would be to not give this a lot of thought and then find our you've wasted your early life because some idiots passed on to you their sexual-issues-cum-religion?

QuoteEat me alive.

Nice freudian slip. I won't be doing anything of the type, go ask a girl. Your age. Maybe someone will agree to it. Post a picture.

Quote from: Helm on Mon 23/04/2007 11:35:57
The taboo of incest is based on the fact of flawed birth because of same blood mixed.

There's also the "minor" issue of abuse of trust, which is probably far more damaging than a single generation of limited gene pool reproduction.

Quote from: SSH on Mon 23/04/2007 12:43:14

Quote from: Helm on Mon 23/04/2007 11:35:57
The taboo of incest is based on the fact of flawed birth because of same blood mixed.

There's also the "minor" issue of abuse of trust, which is probably far more damaging than a single generation of limited gene pool reproduction.

Quote from: Helm
I don't condone father/daughter relationships because I believe they're obviously based on the taking advantage of a minor by an adult and as such are no different - but even worse because they abuse the safety of a parental relationship

Also, him posting pictures is not gonna prove anything. Ugly people date and mate just as handsome people do, considering there are as many ugly as handsome members of both sexes.

Then again, if all pictures would depict someone sickly inhibited and anti-social, with an apparent psychopathic look and a weird moustache, then we could start making conclusions.

But he doesn't; I've seen plenty of pictures now and looks like a cheerful, outgoing type,

You know. as much as this has turned into a dialogue between the two of you with random comments from people, already expecting the new posts, I think we're all getting something out of it. For example I haven't had as much fun reading a thread in a long time, even though I do understand it's a serious subject.

Only the facts that Helm came up with a soccer team and mr. Paul are just top material, and as someone said at #AGS, someone should really make a book out of this treasury.

Now it's not only that. Following what you write here made me have a weird dream last night, and it fits the subject prefectly.

So I was back at work at the school I'm at, high school it is, so kids from 13 to 16 etc. But this time I wasn't teaching, but I was a rental worker doing gardening chores, and for some reason eating sausages. Anyway, there were everyone I know from the past, and I talked to a lot of them. Now some squirrels had made a winter storage from one of the vans they used as class rooms (notice it is a dream), and we were appointed to clear it. this is where it gets weird ;)

So we were cleaning it while there was a class held. And this would in real life be my favourite class in an odd way though. Once the girls there heard that I was only 19 (now 20) they started showing awkward interest in the amount of cigarettes I smoke (none) how much I drink (a lot) and if I have a girlfriend or if I have a lot of sex (well obviously I didn't comment this). Anyway, at christmas last year the lot of them dug up my phone number from somewhere and started calling me and sending sms, basically just merry christmas and happy new year later on. Some of them also somehow discovered my msn.

Anyway, they noticed me there cleaning the peanuts from the floors, the nuts were up to ancles. After the class one of them came to me while we were finishing the job. She was mad in a not serious way and told me that I should have told them I was coming to work again and not just appear like that. And I looked at my partner and smiled at her and said "why, you wanted to dress up for me?". For some reason I said that in English. She understood and said yes. Then she Hugged me and gave me 2 kisses O_O.

I panicked and quickly looked around hoping no-one had seen. But I noticed there was some boy with his father with him right behind us. They said nothing but the man looked at me. The girl left then. I was really scared at that point.

And it get's more scary. Later I was teaching maths to them. (yeah, I teach everything but PE and woodshop). After the class I told her to stay behind. but I did that in a strict way so no-one would suspect, why would they anyway. So she staid. I asked her if she wanted to ruin my life forever. That I might get just fired, but only if I was lucky. She said she never wanted that to happen, and I put my hand on her cheek and kissed on her lips for some time. Then I told her something like "Tell no-one about this, please. It's best for you too."

I started thinking of ways of getting away with it. I thought if she confirmed, I could tell that it was her who kissed me, which was true, and that I told her not to after the class. But then I realised I had kissed her then, and if she told them that... her parents and the principle were all there. I was really screwed up in my head.

I feel creepy. She told them it was her. They decided I could continue teaching as it had just been 'a friendly kiss meant as a joke' because they liked me as a teacher. so I staid there. We agreed never to talk about it in public. But, my God, we started going out in places where no-one could see us. I even shaved my beard to look younger! And she would ask her friends to back her up, saying she staid at theirs when she was with me. we even ended up in bed. But here comes the part that I'm very proud of. We never had sex. She was too scared, and I was to reasonable. So what we did was, spend the night together, kissed a few times and then she fell asleep her head on my chest.

Man did I feel weird when I woke up :P I blame this thread. For making me fantasize of just turned 15-year-olds.

QuoteAlso, him posting pictures is not gonna prove anything. Ugly people date and mate just as handsome people do, considering there are as many ugly as handsome members of both sexes.

Yeah I was thinking perhaps he'd look not just moderately ugly but positively horrifying or something.

Also what's with getting all excited with the recent posts? Not to be a killjoy - and not that I can't take a compliment - but they're just posts on the internet from a person to another, if this is 'book-worthy material' for you then you must read some shit books.

In my dream I saw I cheated on my girlfriend with a very beautiful prostitute whom I paid something like 1000 EUROS. My brother woke me up just before I had sex with her. Hm I guess I didn't cheat then, just intended to. I attribute this more to that I haven't seen my gf in the last week than this thread, though. As the prostitute was of age.

I am never telling my girlfriend this, of course.

Yeah, I know it's utter crap, but they print Dan Brown, don't they. It's funny that's all. Not Danny boy, but the conversation between to more or less weird people.

Regarding the back-peddling business...I feel like she might be said 'the one'...but I was just trying to fight off the growing impression that it's burned into my mind that she definitely is 'the one'. I'd like for her to be 'the one' one day...but if she's not I'm not going to....erm...do whatever it is that psychopathic people would do in that situation. I'm not familiar with the psyche of said people.

I don't blame you for randomly choosing her father's and brother's name...not really. It was just horrifically ironic that you should do so. Especially considering the tale you were inventing with said name.

As for this picture you've been begging me for, there's loads in the picture thread...but sure, why the hell not?

(http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/1089/img0453pa7.png)
I have no idea what the hell this is.

This was after my first attempt at bleaching my hair. My hair is naturally dark brown, so it took more than 1 bleaching kit to get the job done.

Yes, you're probably right. I definitely am one of those terribly, horrifically, mind shatteringly ugly people. I should make a movie about myself and call it "The Man Who Never Penised A Girl: A Tribute To Helm['s obsession with getting a monkey laid]".

You know what Monkey?

I don't care about the age gap or the 14 numer.

I care about your obsession mostly! "She's the one!". What one? Heck, it must be hell to be with 1 girl and nobody else really.

And something else:

for me the perfect relationship has 1 and only element: The girl loves me back as I love her (as much, or simmilarly, or she respondes).

I really can't udnerstand you waiting and waiting.

You're not ugly really though ;) not by a million! :D

You're not ughly. You just have a silly look on your face.  :)

Yeah you're not terminally ugly, so probably abstinent by choice.

Let's talk your religious background.

Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 23/04/2007 17:55:28

I care about your obsession mostly! "She's the one!". What one? Heck, it must be hell to be with 1 girl and nobody else really.

Eh???? ¬¬

I've only ever had sex with my current boyfriend, I wouldn't be sad if he was the only person I ever slept with for the rest of my life...

Must be a greek thing then ;D

Quote from: Meowster on Mon 23/04/2007 18:24:04

Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 23/04/2007 17:55:28

I care about your obsession mostly! "She's the one!". What one? Heck, it must be hell to be with 1 girl and nobody else really.

Eh???? ¬¬

I've only ever had sex with my current boyfriend, I wouldn't be sad if he was the only person I ever slept with for the rest of my life...

You HAVE slept with your current boyfriend. Monkey hasn't. that's the point ;)

I see what you mean. It was lost in translation. But I see what you mean.

Quote from: Meowster on Mon 23/04/2007 18:24:04
I've only ever had sex with my current boyfriend, I wouldn't be sad if he was the only person I ever slept with for the rest of my life...

Is he brainwashing like that time he made you post random nonsense on the boards 'cause he thought it was 'funny', or do you really love him that much?

Quote from: Meowster on Mon 23/04/2007 18:38:56
I see what you mean. It was lost in translation. But I see what you mean.

No indeed, my phrasing was awful now that I see it.

On a more theoritical side of things:

I would imagine that the norm is for people to try, attempt, take at least a taste before deciding that they like that (wo)man. Simmilary with beers. I cant' stand people who go to beer academies and the stuff only to get a Heineken. Why on earth? try something different for once! (lousy alalogy but you get what I mean).

On the practical side of things: My wife is the only one. Can't speak for the future, but I'm almost 30, so unless I hit some middle age crises, or my son at the age of 15-16-20-whatever has some hot babes to connect me with, I'll be loyal... :P It just feels, perfect to be with her. We are connected and blah blah. But we do have sex and the rest and everything is fine. How can you know she's the one if you haven't had sex, haven't slept with her, haven't even been her boyfriend???

There is the creepy part with Monkey for me...

Like having a crush on a filmstar you've never met, and knowing that you could be happy with them if only you got to meet them...

Abstinence from masturbation?

Is...is that even possible?

Regarding Love, I think it's all relative. It doesn't last forever; even in long term, healthy mature relationships, I think Love eventually gets replaced by something more approaching comfort.

I think Love exists chiefly as a way for two people to devote themselves fully to the inception of a relationship, and build towards a solid companionship in the future, rather than some eternal binding of "soulmates" (what a horrible term).

In most of our relationships, the point when they end is usually when the Love has run it's course, and fails to be replaced by the sense of companionship. The two people split, and the cycle begins again.

Of course, I'm leaving Lust out of this equation. But Lust is fleeting, and fickle.

Fun too.

Quote from: LimpingFish on Mon 23/04/2007 19:17:29
Abstinence from masturbation?

Is...is that even possible?

Oh but of course :D

Simply put when this happens the body takes over while sleeping. you will cum in your sleep.

It happens to all boys, but don't know the English translation.

simply put, nature,god, whatever wants males to cum! end of story

Spank me if I'm wrong, but I think the body will dispose of the manly juices only if one does not masturbate.

Quote from: LimpingFish on Mon 23/04/2007 19:17:29
Abstinence from masturbation?

Is...is that even possible?

Well you can not play with yourself, take cold showers before you go to sleep every night, sleep the maximum of 6 hours after a tiring day of manual labor, and if you do not see or think or imagine any women for the duration of the day, it's possible you won't have a nocturnal ejaculation. Do it all over next day.

Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 23/04/2007 19:30:17
It happens to all boys, but don't know the English translation.

I think you're talking about wet dreams my friend. And it doesn't happen to everyone.

But my advice is, just clean the pipes, it'll prevent you from lots of bad things, and it'ss make your guitar playing hand stronger!

I can crush coal into diamonds with my hand.

And I grind the diamonds he make into dust.

I can form the diamond dust into a molten diamond-lava.

and while you do that, I get the women

Quote from: Tuomas on Mon 23/04/2007 20:49:22
and while you do that, I get the women

No, you don't understand, that's how I impress the women.  What was everyone else talking about?

Nocturnal ejaculation is such a nuisance....first of all because it's messy, and secondly because it ruins all the nice sexual tension you've built up to actually use on something more creative.

I actually don't think I ever had one of those..

My girlfriend is 2 years older than me :P.
And she was my first on every sections.

Though she have had several boyfriends before me she was a virgin when we met as I was.
We met over 2 years ago and we been boyfriend and girlfriend for about 2 years now.
We actually met on the internet (I was not even looking for a girlfriend and then suddently she appeared from nowhere.)
But I wanted to meet her for real and the first time I saw her, I was sure I was gonna fall in love with her (as we had talked alot for about a 6 months I knew alot about her allready.)
And I sure did!

Unfortnatly though we dont live together and we live in different countries :o.
She lives in Wales and I live in Norway, so that has been hard.
I been over in Wales many times now and one time I was there for a couple of months.

And finally I am about to move over to her for good :P. (hopefully allready in June)

It is going to be hard though as she has been suffering with problems like depression and other things that I would rather not say (thinking of my girlfriend) and at the moment she is not able to get a job cause of it so I will be alone working etc. but its something I am willing to fight for.

Really, 2 years (almost) being away from her is just to much, and I need to move to Wales and live with her.

ops, enough about my love life,

My thought about all this is:
Age different is something you should be carefull about.
When it comes to 25 and 16 I think that is crossing the line
But there is much worse cases than that.

If it works for them and they aint doing stuff they shouldent then, let them be together.

I would not be comfortable in the same situation.


Peder.

Quote from: Peder Johnsen on Mon 23/04/2007 21:17:55
I been over in Wales many times now and one time I was there for a couple of months.

I'm sorry.

Quote from: vict0r on Mon 23/04/2007 20:58:32
I actually don't think I ever had one of those..

Watch something really erotic like the London Marathon, then go to bed without pleasuring yourself.

Quote from: Pumaman on Mon 23/04/2007 21:20:13

Quote from: Peder Johnsen on Mon 23/04/2007 21:17:55
I been over in Wales many times now and one time I was there for a couple of months.

I'm sorry.

hehe, why? :).


Peder.

Quote from: Pumaman on Mon 23/04/2007 21:20:13
Watch something really erotic like the London Marathon, then go to bed without pleasuring yourself.

Well, surely it's not something I want to happend.


But that Marathon sure looks tempting...

No, I have to go with Vict0r here. I had to get the explanation from a doctor, because he was asking about them and I said I have no idea how it happens :/

QuoteNo, I have to go with Vict0r here.

Please keep your filthy homosexuality out of this thread. We have enough perversion anyway.

Mainly what Petter said about wet dreams. They're a waste of a good ejaculation that could have been put to better use. Otherwise harmless.

Unless you're a mormon.

Abstinence is always a good idea. Like right now I'm abstaining from talking about my sex life on the internet.  ;)

Aren't you much better than everybody else, then.

Quote from: Helm on Mon 23/04/2007 22:58:04
Please keep your filthy homosexuality out of this thread. We have enough perversion anyway.

Excuse me, but I find that highly offending. Just because I'm a homosexual doesn't make me a pervert! And I thought this was a civilised discussion about age differences, not about ranting on others preferences.

How could you possibly think this was a civilized discussion?

Also, you're not homosexual. Also, you are a pervert.
Also...where were we?
Ah yeah, Ivy was just gonna tell us about her sex life.

Yes Ivy

We're waiting out here... don't keep us waiting for too long... who knows what might happen...

:P

Quote from: Pumaman on Mon 23/04/2007 21:20:13

Quote from: Peder Johnsen on Mon 23/04/2007 21:17:55
I been over in Wales many times now and one time I was there for a couple of months.

I'm sorry.

Quote from: vict0r on Mon 23/04/2007 20:58:32
I actually don't think I ever had one of those..

Watch something really erotic like the London Marathon, then go to bed without pleasuring yourself.

CJ, that reminds me. This was a YouTube comment on your Mittens 06 "speaking welsh" segment outside Home from Home;

Quotewkd chris i luv yuur accent bbe !!

http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments&v=BzAFoOcuxtg

Sounds like you are being hit on by a 14 yr old! :P

Quote from: Nikolas on Sun 22/04/2007 18:10:49
I'm a full grown family man now.

Shame on you, sir! :o ;)

And Helm, I just hope I'm "better" than you.  :P _{yuk yuk}

I'm sorry I don't understand that "joke". Want to give it another go, witch?

Nah, not really, that would be a waste of your time and mine. Besides, I've got little children to lure to my house. Didn't that just tie this thread together nicely. :P

Quote from: The Ivy on Tue 24/04/2007 01:31:37
Nah, not really, that would be a waste of your time and mine. Besides, I've got little children to lure to my house. Didn't that just tie this thread together nicely. :P

goddamn pedophiles

Quote from: The Ivy on Tue 24/04/2007 01:31:37
Nah, not really, that would be a waste of your time and mine. Besides, I've got little children to lure to my house. Didn't that just tie this thread together nicely. :P

Lucky children. I wish I was one of them. Thank you for rousing me up.  :P

I was wondering... Is it made of gingerbread? because if it is, I wish I was a kid.

Quote from: The Ivy on Tue 24/04/2007 01:31:37Nah, not really, that would be a waste of your time and mine. Besides, I've got little children to lure to my house. Didn't that just tie this thread together nicely. :P

I'm all yours...

And I had thought this thread had already crossed all the lines it could.

oh boy

smooth, guys.

I'm actually awaiting monkey's answer!

Ugh. Be quiet Dan N Gamez. Your only contribution to this thread is this embarassing come on to Ivy and accusing ManicMatt of being an attention whore where he clearly isn't and has steered clear of this.

Fatal Fury, go tell the love of your life that you just hit on a girl you don't know, on the internet.

Tuomas... uh...

Anyway, this is a sad turn for this thread.

Yes, stop being pathetic internet losers and let's get back to talking about pedophiles, please.

Ok, I think it's about time I raised the level of discussion by posting some food for thought.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6586879.stm

Helm, what should this man do now that viciously penising women is no longer an option?

Hope nobody ordered a Hot Dog.  :)

Why isn't it an option, CJ? It's not like he destroyed the penis. Stick it in the freezer and it'll stay ha... ok I can't continue with this

I can though, but I must first make a note on the fact, that I never wanted anything more than sweet sweet ginger bread (if she's a witch like you said) and underaged girls.

Anyway, that indeed was an interesting story. On can only wonder what made him do that. Momentary lapse of common sense? Schitzofrenia? Someone told him to do it? Or perhaps it was some religious creep running away from his needs to have sex with minors. Who knows. Thanks for the bite CJ, it was delicious. I once saw a picture where that happened on rotten.com, but I'm 99% sure it was a fake, even though I couldn't force myself to look at it more than the one second that it took me to realise what it was supposed to be. Hope I won't have a dream about this.

I really cant understand paedophilia. They even have political parties for this, everyone knows the one in Netherlands where they demanded that having sexual contact with children was not a punishable thing to do. I truly wonder how these people can live with the though of the children. Can't they really picture themselves in the position of the child, or is it so, that most paedophiles actually would have wanted to have sex with grown ups when they were young, and thereby have a crooked mind when it comes to understanding other people. Who knows.

When it really comes to a 35 year old raping a 7-year-old and someone dating a 14-year-old, I'd have nothing against the latter. I'm not even sure if the term paedophilia is the correct one to describe such a situation.

QuoteAnyway, this is a sad turn for this thread.

Good, if anyone feels inclined, I'd like to hear what you think of (mainly psychological) maturity. Does psychological maturity equal experience?
Can an inexperienced person be seen as mature if he/she takes chances and the outcome is favorable?
Where is the line between bravery and maturity drawn (assuming there are no certain outcomes)?

To be honest, around here (in the decaying heart of industrial lancashire), I got told in March that of 30 people in my history class (15 boys and 15 girls) 22 of them had had adult relationships. This was 22 15/16 year olds. And I was reliably informed that 15 or so of them had been doing it since they were 13. The vast majority of these were girls, although some were guys. Other than 3 or 4 of them, they were the run of the mill chav-minded people. Chav's + History Lesson + 4 bright guys = My with my head in my hands the vast majority of the time.

Simply put, the majority of people in my class were non-virgins. The vast majority of those were idiotic chavs. Helm - using my own jaded descriptions - got "chavved" by one particular air head.

Simply put, if you were an 18 year old in my local area of average intelligence, you'd be able to commit a crime with a child very very easily. And whats more, it would be just a case of turning up at a "party" with a few beers and waiting for them to start getting woozy. This is what the majority of young people around here think a relationship is. The thing is, none of the people I mentioned are worth getting to know at all, unless you want to talk about other girls that they know and Eastenders...

In fact, socially, their exactly the same as the "soccer team" example used.

My final point is this: Abstinence won't kill you in any sence of the word. Mainly due to combined religious and self-preservation insticts, I'm planning on keeping it up for a very long time yet.

- Huw

PS: It is interesting at least to note different attitudes in different countries. Also note that genetically, certain countries develop faster than others. Examples are the German and Scandanavian genetic stocks.

Quote from: Huw "I'm scary" Dawson on Tue 24/04/2007 20:16:49
Chav's + History Lesson + 4 bright guys = My with my head in my hands the vast majority of the time.

Someone else knows the pain.... :'(

And I. Oh, how I wish napalm was freely accessable...

Napalm? Give me TNT anyday. More pretty explosion.  :=

- Huw

EDIT: Maths is the same...
<5 minutes explaining fractional powers>
Teacher: Okay, now turn to page 223 and do que..
Chav: But SIRRRRRRRRRRR!! I don't understaaaaaaaand iiit!
Teacher: Fine, I'll go over it a... Huw? Why are you jumping out of the window?
Huw: GOODBYE CRUEL WORLD!

Just cause you're not a virgin doesn't mean you're a slut-whore out with the entire rugby team.

Trust me. You need to meet these people.

- Huw

No, their not all slut-whore daemonettes. Just about 50% of them, and the rest gloss theirs up so much they might as well be...

EDIT: You haven't fully grasped the full impact of Thatcher's dismantling of the welfare state until you see former teenage mothers with their pregnant fifteen year old daughters.

Like it or lump it, the biggest reason why you should NEVER sleep with anyone under the age of 16 is the risk of pregnancy.

I thought you said they're not worth knowing/meeting. Or do you perhaps mean 'meeting' because they're all 15-16? ;)

I don't quite get you Tuomas. I'm very bad at spotting other people's jokes. I'm also waiting for anticipation of getting my post ripped to shreds by Helm. It's almost a social event on these forums these days. :p

- Huw

Spot the joke:

(http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/3907/memmeob7.jpg)

do you think she's too young for me? She really liked it when I bought her those roses. They cost 500 euros. she bought me that kinky sailor cap for valentines.

Quote from: Huw "I'm scary" Dawson on Tue 24/04/2007 20:39:52
Trust me. You need to meet these people.

Come on, you need these people. Without them, there'd be nobody to collect your rubbish and serve you a Big Mac & Fries when you get older.

Quote
EDIT: You haven't fully grasped the full impact of Thatcher's dismantling of the welfare state until you see former teenage mothers with their pregnant fifteen year old daughters.

But surely the existance of the welfare state is what allows people to get pregnant at 14, and live off the state for the next 16 years while they bring up their kid(s). If the welfare state was dismantled, they'd have to send the kid to work down the mines and start whoring themselves out to put bread on the table each day.

Quote
Like it or lump it, the biggest reason why you should NEVER sleep with anyone under the age of 16 is the risk of pregnancy.

Why is it better to get a 16-year-old pregnant than a 15-year-old?

CJ, your 100% correct there. Without these people, people like us would go insane without our happy meals and people to look down at.  ;)

QuoteWhy is it better to get a 16-year-old pregnant than a 15-year-old?

Because a 16 year old is probably out of school. A 15 year old isn't.

- Huw

Also, condoms work, pretty reliably.

Quote
Good,

Good.

Quoteif anyone feels inclined, I'd like to hear what you think of (mainly psychological) maturity. Does psychological maturity equal experience?

Psychological maturity is the outcome of experience for a sensitive person. A person that is not receptive to how other people work and does not actively try to emphasize and understand will not benefit from experience in becoming more mature, but will benefit in other ways. They might become better at control situations or manipulating people, or just achieve true brick-wall-ness where nothing they hear by other people phases them.

For experience to teach one to be psychologically mature, though that's a nebulous term I hope we understand more or less what we both mean, that person must be predisposed towards a desire for understanding for its sake, a honest caring for his close people. I think people end up like these semi-randomly. In that the processes of biological makeover and upbringing are so complex we perieve the results as near-random. I've met women from loving families that never were lacking anything as they were growing up to be cold bitches with only themselves in their mind, and I've met - and I am best friends - with a person who grew up in an abusive family with idiots for parents who is very caring and understanding.

QuoteCan an inexperienced person be seen as mature if he/she takes chances and the outcome is favorable?

There are child prodigies that just understand people much faster. But I don't think you really have the capacity for true empathy until you've been delt a few strong blows in your life. When you desired something from another person and the clash of willpowers resulted in not getting what you wanted. Only then you start to treat people - because they're reflections of yourself - more humanely, if so predisposed. A good clear eye for dissecting human behaviour is not enough. Analysis is not enough. People must hurt to be kind.

QuoteWhere is the line between bravery and maturity drawn (assuming there are no certain outcomes)?

I am not sure I understand this one. Perhaps you'd like to define for me what is bravery and what is maturity just a bit more before I can discuss the two in opposition because I don't see them overlapping much in my own worldview. I don't know what bravery is if not a desire to be self-consequent ethically and in action, but that's not about maturity always.

QuoteIt's almost a social event on these forums these days. :p

Please don't say this. It's not.

Well I think it is. In an exaggerated sort of way of course.

- Huw

I am not here to be hilarious for you or anything like that. I just had a discussion with monkey in which I presented some - I believe interesting - arguments a bit humourously to not beat him over the head with them. That is all.

Fair enough. I was just refering to the fact that alot of people seem to make very long posts on these forums to attract people to come and unpick it. I actually find somebody unpicking my entire post and making intelligent observations about it a very refreshing change from me having to run an entire debate because nobody seems to want to talk about anything. So sue me.

- Huw

EDIT: You have to admit Helm, you do make alot of people smile with your posts. It's a good talent. :p

EDIT: Hang on, it's starting to sound like I'm infatuated with Helm or something. Shut up Huw.

Quote from: Huw "I'm scary" Dawson on Tue 24/04/2007 21:23:16
CJ, your 100% correct there. Without these people, people like us would go insane without our happy meals and people to look down at.  ;)

You may look down, but actually I have immense respect for people who do the "shit jobs" in society. Imagine getting up at 5:00 every morning, touring the streets picking up other people's stinking, rotten waste and getting hepetitis from a needle that was left sticking out of someone's rubbish bag; and all for minimum wage. I don't think I could do it.

But more than that, for the economy to work it needs people who flunk at school and end up doing those sorts of jobs. Because if everyone was a straight-A student, we'd have no cleaners, no rubbish collectors and no McHaveANiceDays; and society would be in big trouble as a result.

Quote from: Huw "I'm scary" Dawson on Tue 24/04/2007 21:36:25
alot of people seem to make very long posts on these forums to attract people to come and unpick it.

Yeah, people tend to post and hope their post is not ignored. Otherwise they wouldn't post at all. Often a long one has more stuff in it than one with just 4 sentences, and has much more to discuss about.
/me looks at his 4 sentences x_x

Actually, I wasn't reffering to rubbish collectors. I would have used them as an example if I did. Most rubbish collectors around here are simply people that have retired from their job and work with the council for a little income.

What I am reffering to is that many people have crittically low aspirations in life, or even worse, none at all. I can't honestly think of anybody other than me in my year that has sat down and said "Yes, I want to be at university in three years time, and then go into politics" the best I've heard is "I'm going to college so I can get a decent job around here". Nobody wants to leave. Nobody wants to make a name for themselves. It's honestly rather depressing how many people in my area see school as a small speed bump between having fun and having a family/working.

And because I'm a snooty begger I usually end up looking down on these people.

The problem is, these low asperations lead to dreary lives, which encourage kids to go and get knocked up every night. It's bad enough that my town is a famous town for "never-leavingness", but the infectious dreary outlook on life basically leads up to problems like this.

- Huw

EDIT: That's true Tuomas. Good point.
The problem is people, not just on forums like this but especially on big ones, try and make lots of points to hope to get noticed. They want to be part of the "it crowd" of all the ancient posters who are really good friends. Hence my point.

Quote from: vict0r on Tue 24/04/2007 14:39:10I'm actually awaiting monkey's answer!

Then let me oblige.

Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 23/04/2007 17:55:28You know what Monkey?

I don't care about the age gap or the 14 numer.

I care about your obsession mostly! "She's the one!". What one? Heck, it must be hell to be with 1 girl and nobody else really.

And something else:

for me the perfect relationship has 1 and only element: The girl loves me back as I love her (as much, or simmilarly, or she respondes).

I really can't udnerstand you waiting and waiting.

If I said "she's the one", please forgive me. I don't believe I actually used that phrase, but if I did, I apologize. However, let me reiterate once more: I would like this girl to be 'the one', but it DOES NOT mean that I necessarily believe she will be. I have come to terms with this fact, and it would be beneficial to my sanity if everyone else here could too. I'm obsessive by nature. It's something I've had to try and find a way to deal with my whole life. If I'm talking to someone and I mispronounce a word, I will obsess over it for days, possibly even weeks, asking myself how I could have been so stupid. This isn't the first girl I've ever fallen for, but I've never fallen for a girl as deeply as I have this one. I know my obsessive behaviour could be seen as "creepy" but it's really just a part of who I am.

Another thing that I believe I mentioned is that at this point in my life I am not seeking any type of romantic relationship. I'm not going to deny the way I feel about this girl, but right now I don't want to be anything more than just friends with her. Any such type of relationship right now would probably serve to prevent me being able to serve my two year mission to the Death Star and back. Hopefully this paragraph will also help to explain said "waiting and waiting."

Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 23/04/2007 17:55:28You're not ugly really though ;) not by a million! :D

Quote from: Mr. Buckéthead on Mon 23/04/2007 17:56:05You're not ughly. You just have a silly look on your face.  :)

Quote from: Helm on Mon 23/04/2007 18:00:52Yeah you're not terminally ugly, so probably abstinent by choice.

Thanks guys. It's always a nice confidence booster to be told that I'm not terminally ugly...for once. :)

Quote from: Helm on Mon 23/04/2007 18:00:52Let's talk your religious background.

Quote from: Helm on Mon 23/04/2007 22:58:04Unless you're a mormon.

Ahhh...so you have gotten me figured out then. You and your telepathy.... :P

Yeah...that's right. I'm a Mormon. Now this could spawn a whole new thread just based on this fact, but I'd like to set some things straight.

1) Mormons have not practiced polygamy for over one hundred years, since 1890 when church officials denounced the practice.¹

2) Mormons do not use The Book of Mormon as a replacement to the Bible.² The Book of Mormon is intended to complement the Bible as "Another Testament of Jesus Christ".³

3) I'm not here to try and convert everyone. In fact, I've tried to stay out of most religious threads on these forums altogether. The reason being that I don't know loads of things about my own religion. I've never read The Book of Mormon in its entirety. I've never even read the Bible cover to cover. But due to my own religious convictions I believe them both to be true. For a lot of people that's hardly conclusive evidence, which is why I've tried to steer clear of religious debates.

4) My top-sekrit mission to the Death Star is a mission I'll be serving for my church. As a Mormon, I don't decide "this is where I want to go" and then go. I submit my registration papers to the church headquarters where it is then determined where my mission will be served. The Mormon church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) has rather strict standards regarding who is allowed to go on a mission. This is why I don't know exactly when I'll be going (due to my addiction to pornography). But a full-term mission is two years.

I've mentioned my pornography addiction because I don't want to seem a hypocrite. I have had problems with it in the past, and it's something I'm currently dealing with. I'm not proud to admit it, but I do so in the hopes that perhaps people will take me seriously. By my own convictions I have decided to give it up.

By my own convictions I have decided to put an end to the masturbation. By my own convictions I've decided to stop looking at pornography. By my own convictions I've decided to abstain from premarital sex.⁴

I don't condemn you all to Hell if you have chosen to live your lives differently. But for me, this is the way I have decided to live my life. If you have questions, I'd be willing to answer them...but would it be too much to ask for you not to judge me? This is the way I've chosen to live my life. If you can't deal with that then I'm sorry for the hardness of your own hearts and the thickness of your skulls. But I will not apologize for living my life by my own convictions.

-monkey

¹http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon#Distinctions_from_other_religious_groups
²http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon#Basic_beliefs_.28Articles_of_Faith.29
³http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Mormon
⁴Masturbation aside I am in fact still a virgin, as previously stated.

Good for you Monkey. It's always nice to see people following their religious beliefs to the core. Just keep in mind that this love of your life could change in your two year religious mission on the death star, okay? :)  Personally, as long as anyones not burning my house down or knocking on my door with pamphlets, then I really can't give a damn if they are a christian, muslim, jew, satanist, athiest...

Anywho, this topic has been dragged a little off topic by me, so I'm going to shut up now. Good night everyone. :)

- Huw

Quote from: m0ds on Mon 23/04/2007 23:37:48
CJ, that reminds me. This was a YouTube comment on your Mittens 06 "speaking welsh" segment outside Home from Home;

Quotewkd chris i luv yuur accent bbe !!

http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments&v=BzAFoOcuxtg

Sounds like you are being hit on by a 14 yr old! :P

Wait a minute, what?!?!? When did the Mittens vids appear on youtube??

I'm calling my lawyer.

And I need to learn to stand still.

I understand that said "love of my life" could change during the next 2-3 years. I understand that. But it doesn't change the way I feel about her. Which is what spawned the whole "OMG PAEDOMONKEYPHILIA" discussions.

That's the spirit. Dont' let anything change your mind! Not even the police.

Having feelings for a 14 year old and actually becoming involved in a relationship with one are two different things. The difference: the first one isn't illegal!

P.S. The 14 year old will be turning 15 in 16 days. FTW! :P

Quote from: Huw "I'm scary" Dawson on Tue 24/04/2007 21:23:16
Because a 16 year old is probably out of school. A 15 year old isn't.

Wuzzat? You kidding? Most people here go to school at least until they are 19.

Quote from: Helm on Tue 24/04/2007 16:15:14
Fatal Fury, go tell the love of your life that you just hit on a girl you don't know, on the internet.

I couldn't resist replying to Ivy's hawt comment.

Quote from: Helm on Tue 24/04/2007 16:15:14
Anyway, this is a sad turn for this thread.

It's bound to get worst when I tell you all that I lost my virginity at 2nd grade after school.   :)

Quote
Like it or lump it, the biggest reason why you should NEVER sleep with anyone under the age of 16 is the risk of pregnancy.

Since I've had the snip, does that mean I can start hanging around schools with my dirty mac?

Monkey, I find it strange that you can make radical changes to your natural behavior based on a concept you, apparently, have not invested much into.  It would seem that if someone was going to morph their own personal philosophy around a book/article/song/fortune cookie they would first studied it meticulously, especially if they were planning on going somewhere foreign to tell complete strangers that they can "show them the way", or whatever catchy little numbers you may be armed with.


On another note, what kind of pornography were you addicted to that is so shameful?  Was there penile insertions?

Quote from: SSH on Wed 25/04/2007 00:07:28
Since I've had the snip, does that mean I can start hanging around schools with my dirty mac?

I said biggest. I didn't mean only.

In the UK, the legal age for leaving school is 16. If a girl gets pregnant before she leaves school, chances are she's going to have screwed up her entire two GCSE years. No GCSEs = no future. You can go back and revisit A levels and University. GCSEs are much much harder.

- Huw

The ideal age for my women would be around my age. I've usually ended up dating women who are 2 years older than me. My current love is just 2 months younger than me :)

Your current love eh? :D So that's why the absence from AGS! Tell us about it.

I've always been curious about how Finnish men pick up women. Most of the exchange students we've had at my uni usually just spend their pub/club-nights standing in a corner in a bland white t-shirt and some booze in one hand looking bored.

Quote from: Andail on Wed 25/04/2007 22:13:35
I've always been curious about how Finnish men pick up women. Most of the exchange students we've had at my uni usually just spend their pub/club-nights standing in a corner in a bland white t-shirt and some booze in one hand looking bored.

It's MYSTERIOUS!

I'm very bad at being finnish. I'm way too open. Maybe that's why.

Quote from: Tuomas on Wed 25/04/2007 21:22:45
Your current love eh? :D So that's why the absence from AGS! Tell us about it.

Well it's a bit long-distance and a little bit shush shush. But it's also a little serious. As in, airplane travel serious.

Quote from: Haddas on Wed 25/04/2007 22:22:50
But it's also a little serious. As in, airplane travel serious.

She's an air stewardess?

Quote from: Andail on Wed 25/04/2007 22:24:35

Quote from: Haddas on Wed 25/04/2007 22:22:50
But it's also a little serious. As in, airplane travel serious.

She's an air stewardess?

No. She's an airplane.

Quote from: Andail on Wed 25/04/2007 22:13:35
I've always been curious about how Finnish men pick up women. Most of the exchange students we've had at my uni usually just spend their pub/club-nights standing in a corner in a bland white t-shirt and some booze in one hand looking bored.

That's pretty much it, and everytime they end up with someone. I can't really say there is anything else to it than that. I guess by time Finnish women have grown desparate and tend to come at us. Though speaking of booze, I've quite a few times got phonecalls from people i don't remember, and my friends tell me fun stuff about club nights. So too much booze is the clue! Come to Lapaset and you'll see.

QuoteHowever, let me reiterate once more: I would like this girl to be 'the one', but it DOES NOT mean that I necessarily believe she will be.

I think most people enter a relationship hoping for good things. That they'll match and enjoy their time together, and that time will not be very brief. The 'one' talk generally one learns from being slapped enough times by life to simply not bring up before a few years have passed. If you bring it up early you're just being clingy, weird, creepy and obsessive.

QuoteI'm obsessive by nature.

Have you tried to seek some psychological counselling on this? By someone who isn't your priest? Would you entertain that notion?

I'd shrug the dramatics off if you weren't 20. Most people have outgrown this mood after their teens. But it could be a case of late development and you'll be alright once you get laid a few times.

If it persists, seek help. Having mental problems is no joke.

QuoteI will obsess over it for days, possibly even weeks, asking myself how I could have been so stupid.

I am sorry to hear that Monkey. Under this light, has our conversation brought you much distress? If so, I'm doubly sorry, I didn't mean to metaphorically poke your psyche around. I don't think you're stupid and reports of your paedophilliac streak have been... wildly exaggerated. Probably your fault for wording it as you did but in light of this condition I won't beat you over the head with it. So you like a 14 year old lots and you're waiting for her to grow up.

I've sure we've all had similar thoughts. I was with a girl and her younger sister was totally so much more pretty than her and deep inside I was thinking 'gosh, if I should break up with my current I should do my best to remain friends because that one is growing up soon, wooo!' because we're somewhat of a bastard inside.

I broke up violently.

QuoteI know my obsessive behaviour could be seen as "creepy" but it's really just a part of who I am.

Just be prepared if you stick with 'who you are' all the way that 'who you are' might be a very lonely guy.

QuoteAhhh...so you have gotten me figured out then. You and your telepathy.... :P

Oh man.

About mormonism I just echo erlwood in that it's strange to me that you're willing to kill your libido and spend two years 'saving' people when you don't know exactly what you're saving them from and if you're really saving them and if you're saving yourself.

Your religious identity isn't just 'yourself'. You get to choose. You get to inspect what other people tell you about salvation and make a reasonable call.

QuoteI'm not here to try and convert everyone. In fact, I've tried to stay out of most religious threads on these forums altogether. The reason being that I don't know loads of things about my own religion. I've never read The Book of Mormon in its entirety. I've never even read the Bible cover to cover. But due to my own religious convictions I believe them both to be true.

That does not parse. Due to your own religious convictions you believe something you haven't read to be true? That's... a bit risky there, man.

And you're not converting anyone in this forum, but you're willing to go on a mission two years abroad to convert people there? Of something you're not sure what it is?

QuoteFor a lot of people that's hardly conclusive evidence, which is why I've tried to steer clear of religious debates.

You might be messing up your life over words you believe but you haven't read. That's a big issue for YOU not for any religious debate on this forum.

Quote(due to my addiction to pornography)

I don't know. I just don't know.

QuoteI've mentioned my pornography addiction because I don't want to seem a hypocrite.

That's brave of you.

QuoteI have had problems with it in the past, and it's something I'm currently dealing with.

What constitutes an addiction? Give me some numbers. I'm in a relationship and I still peruse stuff that can be considered pornographic once in a while as I don't see my girlfriend every day. So how much is too much for you, what's your situation?


By my own convictions I have decided to put an end to the masturbation. By my own convictions I've decided to stop looking at pornography. By my own convictions I've decided to abstain from premarital sex.⁴

QuoteI don't condemn you all to Hell if you have chosen to live your lives differently.

Do you know that on your mission when you expose people to the mormon faith if they turn it down, they're effectively condemned to hell? They were okay as long as they didn't know, but once they know and turn away from jesus, they are condemned to suffer in all eternity.

Do you really need this crap in your life?

Quotebut would it be too much to ask for you not to judge me?

I won't judge you.

Quote from: Helm on Wed 25/04/2007 23:12:08
You might be messing up your life over words you believe but you haven't read.

And that includes most religious people in my opinion.

Hello monkey.

Been a while since I posted in this forum, but reading your posts made me want to say something. I agree with what said Helm so I'll try no to repeat what he wrote. Anyway, I don't know you personally, I probably made a lot of assumptions in the following post and I hope you won't take it bad, I just would like to understand. Oh, it's mainly about religion.


So, from what you said, it seems to me somewhat obvious that you're not the one who chose to become member of your church. Your parents certainly did choose for you. The fact that you probably were babtized at the age of 8, when you where "in age to understand the good and the bad" as they say, certainly didn't help you to make your own decisions, as this was the first step in what would become a well planned religious life. So I guess that at the age of 12 you took your first responsability in the community as a beacon, at 14 you were an instructor, at 16 you became priest, and soon you'll become an Elder and you will serve a mission, as so many do. Also, you were told that you were the one who has chosen to be babtized, the one who made this decision.  As this assumption is completely absurd, how can you differentiate your own decisions and those the church made you take?

Seeing as you weren't quite serious in the studies of your own religion from what you said, I can only conclude that until now, you simply followed the path you have been assigned to. This means, you don't have what you call "faith". This means you simply do what you are told to do, what you think is true,  (in your church I mean, even if it can greatly influence the way you live everyday) without allowing you to think that there could be a tiny chance that all of this is wrong, without giving you the possibility to investigate on your situation. You've grown up with the conviction that your church is the only one true, that God himself spoke in 1820 to a teenager and told him that he was the chosen one, the one who would later become the first prophet of the new era. That is what you believe, because you were told so since you were in age to believe all what your parents say, since you were in age to believe in Santa Claus.

I think you are somewhat aware of this. Maybe you believe you don't have a good enough testimony, so you really hope that going on this 2 years mission will help you aquire a better understanding of your religion, make you unbreakable in your faith, make you stronger against the devil's attacks, and wiser in your decisions. Or maybe, you're just going because it was planned from the begining, since you repeatedly sang as a kid this little song : "I hope they call me on a mission, when I have grown a foot or two....I hope by then I will be ready to teach and preach and work as missionaries do!". We all know what this kind of song implies, don't we ?

And/Or, most probably, you're going because of the pressure: How could you finally chose not to go ? You likely would disappoint everybody, your familly, your church friends, your community, and even worse, you certainly would lose forever the love of this girl... Because yes, that's right, in mormon community, you gain a particular social status when you're back from your mission, everybody is proud of you and respect you, and most of the girls only want to marry a man who went on a mission, which seems to be the case of your girl. And as you can't even imagine going out with a someone from the outside world, which would be really bad for many reasons, you're somewhat... yes, stuck. Seems like spending 2 years in a mission at the begining of your life is the only way to go... Gosh, thinking about all of this makes me a bit sad, as it seems a decision made by despair.

Do all of this seem right to you ? Do you really have the feeling you made the decision to go, freely ?
Sincerely, have you already tried to look at your situation as you were looking at somebody else ? Trying to change your point of view by allowing you to make simple hypothesis like this: In the case what I'm believing is wrong,  what I'm doing is wrong, what would it imply ?

edit: some typo

Good post. I hope you post more, Dorcan.

Deacon, Teacher, Priest, Elder. Yeah. Close enough.

I'm not leaving on my mission tomorrow. And although I haven't devoted every waking moment to researching my church, I do put time into it. I don't just blindly follow what I'm told I should do. It's true that I was baptized when I was 8 years old. But you're sorely mistaken if you think that I've just taken what I've been taught since I was a child for granted.

I haven't done a lot of in-depth research. I haven't done a lot of things. And maybe I am blind to follow the teachings of the church I was raised in while I look into the church. But the point is that I have looked into it. I have sought after truth. And maybe I don't know everything about "my church"...I wouldn't even say that I know a lot. But what's the worst that could come of it if I'm wrong? I would rather be wrong and have lived a good life than to stray from the things that I do believe (because of that which I don't know) and in the end learn that the church was right.

The earliest I will probably be able to go on my mission is several months from now. I have every intention of not only reading the Book of Mormon, but also the Bible before then. And I have every intention of gaining a testimony of the truth of both. The Book of Mormon is somewhat unique amongst the Christian faiths in that it doesn't expect anyone to blindly follow what it says. Toward the end, in the book of Moroni, it presents a challenge to anyone who reads it, telling them to ask God if the book is a lie:

Quote from: Moroni 10:4-54 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
  5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

I don't have a testimony of the entire book. I haven't read it to have gained such a testimony. But I do have a testimony of the things which I have read.

Another misconception that has arisen is that I intend to go on my mission because it has been instilled in me that I should since I was a child. My mother is a member of the church, my stepfather isn't. Growing up we attended church sometimes. Enough to be classified as attending on a regular basis. Though as time went on, our attendance grew less and less.

Now that I'm grown and can drive myself, I attend because I want to attend. I want to find out for myself if this thing which I say I believe in is the truth or not. I believe that I'll find that these things are true. But if I never gain a testimony of that, then I will have to, by my own convictions, accept that I was wrong.

I don't know that "my church" is the true church. But I believe it.

But I don't want to serve a mission simply because of my beliefs in the church. I want to serve a mission because of my belief in God. Because I know...I know...that I wouldn't be the person I am today if there weren't a true God. I know that beyond a shadow of a doubt. And because of that knowledge, I want to share this joyous message that there is a God. That He loves each and every one of us. "My church" has provided me an opportunity to spread this message. There are plenty of other churches, and plenty of other opportunities, sure. But when it comes down to it, this church is either true, or it's not. And I don't dare turn my back unless I know. Unless I really know.

So at this point in my life, I have every intention of serving a mission for the Mormon church. Because I believe it to be true. If I one day find that I can no longer believe this, then my plans will change. I will find an answer before I go...have no doubt about this.

The reason I have tried to avoid religious debate here on the forums is that I was honestly afraid that differences of opinion on such matters might affect people's overall opinion of me as a member of the community. Since I joined these forums, I have tried to be a productive, active member in this community. I have tried to help maintain and uphold what the community has grown to be. And I have tried to give back when I can. These forums are like a virtual online home to me. I just didn't want to be rejected here because of my beliefs. If in the mission field people reject me, then that's one thing. I was really just afraid that people might judge me as a competent coder...as a member of this community...or whatever...based on any prejudices they might hold against the Mormons. Maybe I'm wrong for trying to hide my faith for such selfish reasons. Maybe I'm just wrong.

Quote

But I don't want to serve a mission simply because of my beliefs in the church. I want to serve a mission because of my belief in God. Because I know...I know...that I wouldn't be the person I am today if there weren't a true God.

You think you know.

Quote
But when it comes down to it, this church is either true, or it's not. And I don't dare turn my back unless I know. Unless I really know.

That's what bugs me about churches and religion... it's all held together by fear. You daren't turn your back in case you go to hell. And that's basically it.

Which is why it strikes me as very selfish that you'd spread the word of your fear-driven religion to other people.

It's funny how many people would rather be happy than right.

Spoiler

I was speaking very generally about religion, not necessarily making a statement about "my church". Basically what I got from Yeowster's statements is that she would rather live the way she wants and not live her life in fear of "go[ing] to hell" than to worry about it. This is where we differ in opinions though. Because even though I've made mistakes in my past, I'd still rather lead a good life and be wrong about this religion stuff than to satisfy my temporal pleasures and be right about it.

[close]

Furthermore, why does it have to be about fear of going to Hell? If I believe in life after death, if I believe in Heaven and in God...why can't it be that perhaps I want to spend eternity with loads and loads of riches in Heaven? See...my plan is to try and be the richest person there...then I can laugh and gloat at all you poor, poor heathens. :P Sure, there is, for a believer, the fear of Hell...but why can't we focus on the good? :=

Also I think that Douglas Adams had a very brilliant point when he wrote about Arthur's visit to the philosopher on the pole. Just as Arthur couldn't know the things that the philosopher knew, you can't know everything I know. Our knowledge is mutually exclusive. You can't know what I know because you already know what you know. Even if we both had a knowledge of some common fact, our understanding of the thing would inevitably be different, so when it comes straight down to it, you still wouldn't know what I know. I know through my own experiences the things that I know. You know the things that you know. Trying to understand the things that the other knows is a futile exercise, as we can't possibly know the things the other does. So until you become me...until you know what I know...please just refrain from questioning what I do and don't know. If I say that I know it, I mean that I know it. I may be wrong at times, but in this case I'm definitive, and nothing will change my mind that I know this thing.

This is also your home, Monkey, and what means most to people here is what you contribute to the community.
I won't enter a lengthy discussion about religion with you; I think your foundation is strong enough to withstand a bunch of semi-strangers attempts to question your beliefs. I also don't think you should regard people's responses here as mockery or rejections. People simply want to share their convictions and theories to help you save some time or lead a better life. Because we all think we're right.
Many people need to experience things for themselves before accepting any other views on the subject. The important thing is that you explore life and its various aspects, and never take one path for granted. If you spend long periods pursuing a certain goal, even missing that goal will still be worth the journey, because it was your journey and undertaking it led you to wisdom concerning other aspects of life.

Example from life:
Years and years ago I tried to convince Helm that the body and mind are one, and that we're all just subjects to the predetermined aspects of our physical entities. He still chose to go on a 3 year long inner pilgrimage to attain spiritual deliverance. His monk-like life wasn't necessary in my eyes, but it gave him a solid platform to stand on when taking on other hardships later in life.
I would never point at him and go "I told you!" because I firmly believe he learnt things that I missed out on.
And later on, I stopped pondering so much about existentialism and turned more pragmatic in my own pursuit to become a better person.

Some people have "missioned" already, in various ways, and feel a desire to teach others. Listen to those who have lived inquisitively and tried on some different paths to the multiple endings of life. 

A virgin can't help you with your sexlife, but a person who's never voluntarily abstained can't help you endure your celibacy.

Let's make some assumptions.

1) There is a god and your religion (this could be anyone, really, not just Mormonism) got it right.
2) He will accept good people into heaven who believe in him and act according to whatever rules the "correct" religion has laid out.

Church (temple, mosque) lets out after the daily services and as two of the church-goers are walking across the street, a giant out of control truck runs them both down (in accordance with god's plan, right?).  They are killed instantly and find themselves at the gates to heaven facing St. Peter or John Smith or who ever's running things up there nowadays.

The gatekeeper is going to analyze both of their lives and choose to deny both of them entrance, accept one but not the other, or accept them both.

He opens both files.  Both men were born into families practicing the one "true" religion.  They both attend church every week.  They adhere fairly strictly to the rules and do a good job spreading the good word.  They're both "good" men as defined by the church.  But there are some differences in their pasts.

One of the men listened to everything his parents taught him, studied the religion in Sunday School and church, and had always followed the fold.  He believed in all the teachings of the religion vehemently and rejected any other ideas that were not in line with the "truth" that he had been taught.  If you asked him why he believed what he believed he would tell you it was because that was what was written in the holy book which contained the one and only true testament of god.  He didn't need to compare it to other religions because, simply, he had been told that the other religions were following false teachings and that was good enough for him.

The other man also listened to everything his parents taught him and studied hard in Sunday School and church.  But when he reached a certain age, he started questioning things.  He realized that there were millions of other people on the planet who all believed in different things, and he wanted to learn about them to make sure that what he believed was correct.  He wanted to at least have enough information to make the choice himself rather than having it made for him.  When he told his parents they were furious.  The leaders of his church warned him that he should not stray from the path.  But he was determined to learn all he could.  He left the church for several years, studying other religions and often attending services.  He visited Jewish temples, talked with Muslim philosophers, and had deep discussions with atheists.  In the end, he examined all the information he had gathered over his five-year absence from his parents' religion and after long contemplation, realized that the god that he believed in and the religion whose teachings rang truest in his heart was his original religion that he had started in.  He went back, but didn't apologize to his parents.  Instead, he explained to him how his travels and studies, though they caused him to briefly stray (he drank some caffeine, prayed to a few different gods, and had even had sex with a beautiful girl), had actually strengthened his beliefs and dedication to the church.  He rejoined and has been a faithful follower ever since.  If you asked him why he believed what he believed, he'd lay out a landscape of philosophy and moral reasoning, comparing intricate aspects of other religions and talking about the nature of god.

Now, the gate keeper is faced with the choice.  Who gets into heaven.  On one hand, the first guy has been a follower his entire life and has never strayed, while the second one took a rather un-sanctioned field trip.  On the other hand, the first guy followed the religion just because that's what he had been told.  He'd never really thought about it.  He wanted to be a good Mormon/Baptist/Methodist/Whatever because of the promise of heaven -- essentially a selfish reason.  The second guy followed the religion because of his philosophical and moral convictions had led him to the informed belief that this was the truth.  He believed because he had studied, reasoned, and considered.

So, obviously, since they're both following the "correct" religion, they stand a good chance of getting in to heaven.  Does the second one get denied entrance to heaven because of his five year excursion?  I would hope not.  That would mean that god doesn't have a sense of redemption.  What would that mean for all of the people that had converted to the religion.  They would have converted under the false promises that converting would save their souls and send them to heaven.

Do they both get in?  If so, then the ends justify the means.  They've both gone out with the same primary result: eternity in paradise.  So following the example of either of them would be acceptable.  However, only one of them went out with my utmost respect, and probably the respect of a lot of others.  We could also ask the questions, of the two, which had the more fulfilling life?

Which of these two lives would you like to lead?

Monkey,

I just want to say that AGS forum is pretty much my online home as well.

no matter who I am today, 2 years after registering, and 2000 posts after, and many forums and sites after, I still open my browser to this forum. And somehow I doubt that I will go away.

That said, there are people that get to me, and people that I like. which happens in real life as well. And as in real life I deal with it.

You have never been the religious type of guy, like rharpe for example, which I personally think that is to your benefit.

In the end of time, you can do your mission, you can do whatever you like and you can wait for the 14 year old, which could very well be the one (I have no doubt that she could), until she's 16-17 and then it will be fine, no problem!

I am a strong personal believer that everything comes to those who wait. That everybody gets what they deserve. That everybody should act as they feel. And let me ellaborate on the last.

while many of us might feel strange on the mission thing and the 14 year old, I would think that it might be just perfect for you! Perfect, not good! Perfect!

I don't have experience of another girl in my life, and for all I know Evi (wife's name), would be severely defected in the sex part of things. But so what? I love it when we have sex, and I love spending time with her and have no trouble. she is MY mission, sort of saying. Nobody can give me any claims or arguments that she is not MY mission. Same with your mission. If it makes you happy, by all means go ahead. Even if the truth is not there. Even if it is plainly obvious that it's not right! If it pleasures you, or makes you feel right, then yes!

If you enjoy leading a religious life, a decent life, then who are we to say anything really?

If I claim that I enjoy getting beaten up constantly, who are you to tell me it's wrong? If I like it? (I don't, it's just an example, ok)?

Μακάριοι οι πτωχοί τω πνεύματι. Fortunate those of the poor mind (poor translation). He who doesn't know what is he missing has no problem, or misses nothing! he who doesn't know the truth, is not bothered by the lie. If I live and die thinking I'm the greatest man alive, and nobody wakes me up, then why not? Why should I care about the truth of things? The absolute truth?

there is much truth to the fact that religion blinds you and all that talk about making you own decisions etc... but I personally don't care about that! Philosophy is nice and freedom of mind is nice as well, but we never get that, and if one is happy as he is, why wake him up? (all this considering that there is any fault to the way you live, which I find none! ok?)

EDIT: How tricky Vince! well done on this!
I will have to leave your questions unanswered really, myself. I do know which life I lead and which life I take my family with, for which I carry extra burden, but other than that what will happen in the after life and what Jack Smith will say to me at the gates, is a mystery... But if masturbation is a sin, then really, but really, but really, I'll go to deep hell... (and I'm not kidding. I'm just saying that I really don't follow the church, any church rules, I make my own more or less, based on the fact that I try to do "good" and be nice, so that people can be nice in return (how's that for a reason to do the good?))...

Quote
Basically what I got from Yeowster's statements is that she would rather live the way she wants and not live her life in fear of "go[ing] to hell" than to worry about it. This is where we differ in opinions though. Because even though I've made mistakes in my past, I'd still rather lead a good life and be wrong about this religion stuff than to satisfy my temporal pleasures and be right about it.

You don't have to follow a religion to lead a good life. In fact, the life you're leading isn't one that I'd consider particularly good at all, especially since you're going out of your way to preach your views onto other people who really, you should just leave alone. In my view, premarital sex with somebody you love and are serious about isn't a sin at all, and it certainly doesn't give you "good" points. It's this kind of repression that has probably led you to fall in love with a 14 year old girl, so in fact I would consider sexual repression a very bad thing indeed.

So just because you're following your religion doesn't necessarily mean that you're leading a good life. That's where you're wrong.

I live the way *I* believe is good, and I don't need people or religion or a book or a fictional being in the sky to tell me that it's good. I love helping people. I love being generous and kind and I love making people happy. I send all my friends and family carefully considered gifts for their birthday and love to see them happy to use them/play with them/whatever. When my friend's PC blew up, I asked around at work to see if anybody had any spare parts lying around that they were going to throw out, to construct him a new one as a surprise gift. In the end, there was an entire PC that was going to be thrown out so he got that instead :) I love babysitting children because they get so happy when I draw pictures of them riding ponies and things like that.

I really, really love making people happy.

I'm not a bad person.

So, understandably, I don't see why I should go to hell just because I don't believe in God, despite the fact he's given no real solid proof of his existence. In fact, there is far more proof that he doesn't exist.

I think it's absolutely horrific to decree that a person such as myself should go to hell because I didn't worship a God... a God who, to be honest, isn't very good or kind or generous at all.

I think it's even more selfish to go around spreading "the word" of God to people that you should just leave be. Why would anybody want to be involved in your horrid religion which promotes the eternal burning of people who don't worship a single invisible, selfish god? You are supporting a barbaric, unforgiving, wrathful god, and I don't consider that good. You're encouraging other people to worship this barbaric, cruel god too, and I don't consider THAT good either.

So it's foolish to think that following your religion automatically means you're living your life well, and that even if you're wrong about the religion, you still lived a good life.

Because all it really means is that if you were wrong about your religion, you lived a really repressed life AND you wasted other people's time with lies and led other people to believe in a false religion and waste their lives too. So in fact you led a really bad, pointless existence.


There are lots of things about your religion that I would consider as having a bad effect on your life or the lives of other people, so it really IS worth considering whether that's what you want in your life and whether you really believe it... because as I said... if you find out it was all lies at the end, you WON'T be happy that you led a good life.... because you didn't:

1. Spreading false religion to other people
2. Denying yourself the pleasure of a loving, intimate pre-marital relationship
3. Denying other people that from you
4. Repression of sexual build-up can be bad for your health (ask a doctor)
5. Supporting political campaigns that use things taught as being correct/incorrect by your religion, IE homosexuality is wrong, pre-marital sex is wrong, religion being taught in schools etc
6. In fact there's another one right there - you'll inevitably base opinions on people because of things your religion has taught. Such as Homosexuals... I'm sure you'd never be closely friendly with a gay man because that's a sin. Such terrible lies are told about homosexual people in so many churchs... it's disgusting and to support such bullying is a really terrible thing.
7. Supporting things such as no contraception in African countries, helping the spread of AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases
8. Discouraging divorce. I know of many religious couples who never divorced because they'd be looked down on by their church. While I believe a couple should be together forever once they're married, and I would hate to and try very hard never to divorce my husband... I believe that if a relationship is broken, divorce is the way to go. You're 40 years old, are you going to live the next 40+ years in misery and lonely in a bad relationship, just because someone somewhere decided that's what you should do?


slightly off-topic... I once read in a christian leaflet about how divorce and adultery was wrong and a mortal sin blah di blah. The story that they gave in the leaflet was about this woman who was 35 years old and in an unhappy relationship with her husband. Her husband paid her no attention, did not love her and spent no time with her. They had no children, so she spent all of her time at home alone. After work, he would go out with his friends and not return home until late, and even though she was desperate for children, he wouldn't "lie with her" (christian word for 'shag' apparently).

Then one day she met one of his friends. He took an interest in her and they got on very well. Their relationship developed and she felt like she was falling in love with him. He would take her to nice places, he would listen to her heartache and worries, he shared the same interests as her.

But she realised that God did not want her to stray from her husband, so she cut off all contact with this man before a stronger bond was allowed to be formed. She had a narrow escape from sin, but her belief in God saved her from this path.

NOW I ASK YOU, WTF?!?!?!? That story is meant to be uplifting and inspire you to be a good christian, but OH MAN! Basically she just fucked the last chance she had to live a happy life, and to have a lovely family... her husband is still an unloving dickhead, and she's going to be miserable and lonely and childless FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE.

!?!?!?!?

Just thought I'd mention that because it was really horrible... anyway, in similar ways your religion can affect you, Monkey, because you may be leading a life that you believe is right (as in her example) but which ultimately is only considered right by her church, and now she's going to be miserable for the rest of her fucking life.

What a depressing story.

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Fri 27/04/2007 09:38:17
It's funny how many people would rather be happy than right.

Basically what I got from Yeowster's statements is that she would rather live the way she wants and not live her life in fear of "go[ing] to hell" than to worry about it. This is where we differ in opinions though. Because even though I've made mistakes in my past, I'd still rather lead a good life and be wrong about this religion stuff than to satisfy my temporal pleasures and be right about it.

One does not exclude the other. I've been raised a good little Christian, but when I was 9 and my grandmother died I turned my back on it and haven't looked back. Through the years, I've tried to figure out what my feelings towards faith and God were, and it turns out I don't believe in the bugger. Now, atheists may from time to time come across as disrespectful towards others, others who do believe, but I, for one, am never trying to be disrespectful. See my trying to convince religious people to think critically about their faith and religion as my 'mission' of sorts ;)

And on the note of Douglas Adams:

     Now it is such a bizarrely improbably coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful [the Babel fish] could have evolved by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
     The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
     "But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED"
     "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

;D

There are some experiences that are scary but if you keep a safe distance they don't harm you, like this whole concept of perfection and a god existing, if you are brave and jump into it, experience it, you'll be shocked and altered forever when your FEEL IT, not just have it explained to you in logical terms, when you realize for yourself that what you thought was real doesn't exist.

There's much more after this realization, there's understanding how logic is flawed, how words are wrong, how even the concept of self is just a ghost in a machine. The insignificance of life in a macroscopic view... Every one of these things hurts like hell when you go through with it and even when you know all these things in your bones, you still operate as if you've forgotten them because that is the power of social programming, but still, I think the whole effort is worthwhile because that's how you get most out of life, by not being afraid.

You will realize that you're also living a life for happiness, not truth. There is no truth. It's all words and human concepts. SILENCE is the truth.

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Fri 27/04/2007 06:41:20Deacon, Teacher, Priest, Elder. Yeah. Close enough.

translation mistake.

QuoteI don't just blindly follow what I'm told I should do. It's true that I was baptized when I was 8 years old. But you're sorely mistaken if you think that I've just taken what I've been taught since I was a child for granted.

I acknowledge that it wouldn't be something easy to admit for anyone. Nobody wants to believe they could have been "a sheep" all these years.  If you say it wasn't your case, that's fine, as long you're not trying to convince yourself.

QuoteBut the point is that I have looked into it. I have sought after truth. And maybe I don't know everything about "my church"...I wouldn't even say that I know a lot.

Seems like me saying "your church" disturbed you, as you pointed it out several times with quotation marks. I appologize, maybe it hasn't the same meaning as "your religion". In french we often say "your church" or "my church" when we talk about religion.

QuoteBut what's the worst that could come of it if I'm wrong? I would rather be wrong and have lived a good life than to stray from the things that I do believe (because of that which I don't know) and in the end learn that the church was right.

I see many things. You could for exemple make your children believe it's good, when it's not. 
You say you would have lived a "good life". It depends on what you call "good life". I know that me living in a mormon community was insane for me. But I wouldn't admit. How could the only true church be bad for me ? When I started to know a little more about psyche, and not only about spirituality, lot of things suddenly appeared obvious to me. As me beeing masochist, me believing in sacrifice, me believing I was responsible for anyobody, me never beeing "real" when I was in a community, always wearing the mask of someone "pure"...

I ask you, have you for exemple ever tried to talk about your pornography addiction to anybody who was close to you in your community ? Telling it to your bishop doesn't count, as it is more like telling a doctor your sex problems, and you're somewhat forced to, anyway. It's not the same thing. What I know, is that except from the "spiritual intimacy" you can get, it is quite uneasy to have a real intimacy with friends from this kind of community, and feeling enough comfortable with them for telling them everything. The fear to disappoint and make something wrong is most of the time present.

QuoteI want to find out for myself if this thing which I say I believe in is the truth or not.

This is good, really, but :

QuoteI believe that I'll find that these things are true.

QuoteI have every intention of not only reading the Book of Mormon, but also the Bible before then. And I have every intention of gaining a testimony of the truth of both.

When you say that, it looks like you can't even imagine them being wrong. Which implies that what you're looking after is to reinforce your convictions, not to find out if it is true or false. It's quite a different approach.

Quote[...]this church is either true, or it's not. And I don't dare turn my back unless I know. Unless I really know.

QuoteBut if I never gain a testimony of that, then I will have to, by my own convictions, accept that I was wrong.

This is something somewhat easy to say. "Never" could be the end of your life. It's a way to convince yourself you're more open to that possibility than you really are, I think, and it certainly makes you "comfortable" with yourself saying this. I'm not sure you can imagine that case happening for the moment.

QuoteBut I don't want to serve a mission simply because of my beliefs in the church. I want to serve a mission because of my belief in God. I want to share this joyous message that there is a God. That He loves each and every one of us. "My church" has provided me an opportunity to spread this message.

I understand.

QuoteBecause I know...I know...that I wouldn't be the person I am today if there weren't a true God.

How do you know ? I'm not sure to understand how you did conclude to this. Have you seen in a vision how the world would be if there wasn't a god ? I hope you don't base your faith on this.

QuoteI will find an answer before I go...have no doubt about this.

This is something extrem to say. You pretend to know for sure the date limit where you'll get the answer from God. How can you have no doubt about it ? You prayed, and in your heart you felt that : "God will answer to you in some months, just before you go to mission, don't worry about it." ? I hope that's the case, I don't know how you would know otherwise... but if it was the case, that would mean you actually got a pre-answer. Why would you need another answer then?

QuoteThe reason I have tried to avoid religious debate here on the forums is that I was honestly afraid that differences of opinion on such matters might affect people's overall opinion of me as a member of the community. Since I joined these forums, I have tried to be a productive, active member in this community. I have tried to help maintain and uphold what the community has grown to be. And I have tried to give back when I can. These forums are like a virtual online home to me. I just didn't want to be rejected here because of my beliefs. If in the mission field people reject me, then that's one thing. I was really just afraid that people might judge me as a competent coder...as a member of this community...or whatever...based on any prejudices they might hold against the Mormons. Maybe I'm wrong for trying to hide my faith for such selfish reasons. Maybe I'm just wrong.

Hey it's not like that. You're wrong in thinking that because this community "discovered" that you're mormon it would change anything. We're having a discussion here, a really interesting one, don't make the mistake of believing we're "bashing the mormons", that we would not consider you as a person anymore... This may be part of the fears you have to handle everyday.

Anyway, you've been quite helpful in this community, no doubt about it. And I respect you. You're not a victim here.

edit : changed some words.

I used to be a Christian. I just went along with it for a long time because that's what I was supposed to do. After a while there was just too much that didnt sit right with me, like the hypocrisy of so many "good" christians and some terrible contradictions in what they preach. One I still can't get my head around is them saying that we all have free will to do as we please, believe in god or not, and they also say god planned out everyone's life. Now I'm quite happy as an athiest, if anything, my life got better after I stopped going to church and my youth group. After finishing with those groups I actually got a lot of personal problems sorted out, now I'm not suggesting that'd work for everyone, it's just my story. I go to Christian College, which has actually left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth in regards to religion. At a camp in year 8, my girlfriend and her friend got told during a church service that they were going to hell because they didnt believe in god. Not only is this unfair, it's also a ridiculous way to encourage people to believe. In year 9 we had an amazingly naive preacher who told us that evolution was not real, and at that time some scientists had some new discovery (I can't remember it now) which my friend brought up, to which he responded "They made that up" with no further elaboration. That was his argument and he was sticking to it. I can remember whenever we got talks about pre-marital sex at school or at church/youth group, pretty much everyone said they weren't going to. I can tell you that most of them did, but still hold up the facade of being "pure". I think, although you may see it as a sin, it's one of the most beautiful and fulfilling things in life, to share that closeness to someone you care for and love, and everyone should enjoy that time with their loved one as much as they can. Now to sum this all up, I'm just putting in my 2 cents about religion. I'm pretty happy with the idea that the world is a fluke and that we should enjoy life to it's fullest as, for want of a less cheesy phrase, masters of our own destiny.

I totally agree with Meowster there. You can only imagine how hard it is when your mother believes and her mother, and neither will hear a bad word about God. Well I usually just keep quiet, though I've said pfft and blah blah to my mom, but I'm pretty sure she doesn't know that I left the church. I never gived a crap about it anyway, on a spiritual level. I can only count the bad things it has done to me and everyone.

I just wanted to post this because I get a huge kick out of it and it helps put some things in perspective, at least I hope it does. I imagine most believers just hear him speak and say "Yea but Thor is just mythology, African religions are just backwards tribal silliness and everyone KNOWS Jesus is real!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg

That still leaves a lot of mainstream faith with millions of people believing it. It's just depressing that man considers other faiths a theory just because his world is his immediate surroundings.

The mormons are a small faith. If they're right, then 99.9% of humanity will burn in hell. That's the workings of a strange god!!

I wonder how often someone goes on a mission to convert heathens to christianity and end up themselves converted to the local beliefs...

I remember hearing that people who never hear about God automatically get into heaven if they've lived good lives. Which seems nice and fair, because you couldn't condemn someone to hell if they don't know about God.

The trick is.... why bother telling them about god? I mean, they'll get into heaven anway. Infact telling them about Jesus is cruel because then they have the option to ignore the teachings and be sent to hell whereas they would have gone to heaven if you had done nothing.

That's essentially my issue with missions. Other than all the cultural rape, and arrogance in assuming your own religion is better than theirs.

Quote from: MrColossal on Fri 27/04/2007 16:11:11
I wonder how often someone goes on a mission to convert heathens to christianity and end up themselves converted to the local beliefs...

quite often. you remember after the middle age round 1500 C.E.  when chirstians would go on crusades. The fun part is, most of the crusades to middle east, which was and is a muslim area, was a great success to christians of Europe, though not because they got people converted, no, more people convert to islam than to christianity, that is if they're already in something. But some of the most all day things that we take for granted in our culture and national structure are adapted from muslim countries and brought to us by crusareds.

What an interesting twist in the topic!

Monkey! We all still love you, and your scriptomania, and nothing about whatever is going to change that I'm going to swipe all your modules and run off with them once you are on your mission. Despite all the anti-preaching here, you're still the same too all! I promise not to look at you different because of what you revealed, and will try with no greater effort than before to convert you from your misbegotten ways ;D.

Religion was never my bag.

I experienced the whole catholic rites of passage: Baptism, Communion, Confirmation.

We were taught that God was to be feared. God was love, but he'd kick your ass as soon as look at you.

My school was funded by local catholic priests, so religion was taught in class as well as those subjects that might actually prove useful in our futures.

So along with a maths book, or a geography book, you had a book dedicated to religious matters. Almost exclusively catholic in content, with slight diversions into Protestantism and other areas of Christianity, the purpose of the book was akin to "Catholicism for Dummies", and was meant to prepare us to be a productive member of catholic society.

In fact, school was really the only source of religious exposure I had as a child. My family, though catholic, didn't really place a lot of focus on church or similar practices.

When secondary(High)school rolled around, religion got it's own class and was taught by a priest.

When I dropped out of school at fifteen, that was pretty much the end of any religious input into my life.

Currently I don't subscribe to any religion. I do identify with Agnosticism, though. It's a middle-ground I'm happy to occupy.

I agree with most of you (especially Dorcan, Vince Twelve, Meowster and Helm).
You might have known about my beliefs; I'm a Muslim who is not so religious and too bound to his religion. You people have just told my thoughts about religion. I want to add somethings.

Imagine you die. You were always a religious person; you had done every necessities of your religion. And you believe that the infidel people, who didn't believe in your God even if they were aware of your religion, will burn in Hell forever. You are happy, because you know you will go to Heaven.
But something is wrong. They aren't angels who are taking you to the gates. They are the ghosts of Ancient Egyptian soldiers. They take you to the throne of Osiris.
Well, you HAD to believe in Osiris. Because you knew Ancient Egyptians had such a god. Now you have to go to Hell just like the other infidel people, the %99,999999 of the all living humans.

How fair...

Sometimes I feel really trapped by the notion of God.  I don't believe in God, but I was raised to.  I've had to undo a lot of programming and learn to deal with life differently, but there's always this nagging question, "What if I'm wrong, and God is real." 

Well, I'm really screwed, because I could never surrender myself to him, because I do not agree with his policies and behavior.  So I'll just have to burn I guess.

I agree with a lot of what Meowster said, and with Helm and many, many others.  Very interesting debate. 

I got the deal where I'm so tied to God through childhood, that I consider him a weakness because I KNOW he's a myth.  And yet I can't help feeling he's there.

I reject what he does so if I end up in his afterlife, I expect there'll some option to give up.  If there isn't the option to give up then this life actually offered me more.   

Question: Why ethics? Suppose God does exist, and suppose he were as the Bible depicts him (if you see a logical problem here because of contradictions in the Bible, just go with it for a sec, because the logical soundness of the Bible isn't the point here). If the universe exists in such a state (with the Christian God ruling it and having created the universe and mankind, etc.), then from where does morality come? To what extent and in what way does the Christian God justify his ethical stance? Could we say that the only reason you might say that his ethics are "true to reality" is because might makes right? Is there any validity to the idea that just because he created the universe he sets the rules?

Sorry for rambling in such poor and banal style. I have little time to post during my breaks. :P

I don't believe in God any longer for a lot of reasons that I've explained in past threads about religion, but I don't claim to know that a God doesn't exist any more than I claim to know that he does.

Also, I like pie.

I didn't grow up in a religious household at all but society instilled the belief in god in me. Not really any certain religion just that there is a god and it wants you to be good. I was never good for the sake of god or a Jesus.. I mostly just prayed to god to give me the ability to fly [seriously]. I remember an english teacher in middle school asked everyone to write on a peice of paper "What colour do you think god is?" and she read them out, most people wrote "white" and I she was making an awkward point about race but I remember thinking back on that the following weeks and being "What was that about? And why didn't I write "There is no god"?" Probably because I didn't want to be the odd man out.

Even when I realized how silly religion and belief in god or the paranormal is I still had the "Wow it would suck if I was wrong!" thoughts from time to time, like you Raggit. Luckily that's pretty much all dead now. Listening to The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe [excellent podcast http://www.theskepticsguide.org/], reading Dawkins and Shermer, reading the Randi.org commentary... All of these helped to solidify the fact that there is nothing to be wrong about. I didn't see it as deprogramming until I finally took stock of what was left of that "What if...?" in my head and realized that the question was gone. I feel so much better/happier now. So basically what I say is, good luck Raggit and if you ever want help deprogramming, I've got some links!

Eric

You probably didn't think of God as something real but 2hoe you saw him". None can't deny that God is there. If not in any form, it still is a word that haunts in the back of our heads. I blame the image of God that is in people's heads for religious wars, for witch hunts, for sacrifices, everything that made men do what ever they did in the name of God. and still I don't think God effects our life any more than Sauron. Though should we believe in Sauron, it would be as sensible to say that in belief of him, I do this and this and rape this little boy. There's no God, it's only in our heads, and I've always thought of the word God as a scapegoat to things you really don't want to think about. Why is there no rain? Becase God wanted so. Why is summer so hot? Because God wanted it so. Why do rabbits jump? Because God made them jump. Well then why the hell did he make some born with down's? Because God works in mysterious ways and stuff. And all that blocks your mind from really thinking about things. I think it's utter shit, and I tell that to everyone. Even my brothers girlfriend who is a believer. And her friend too, who had a crush on me. I told her she believes in a scapegoat and just shows her own weaknesses. Well she told me she doesn't really believe anyway. Dont' care really.

Although...

Quote from: Gord10 on Fri 27/04/2007 22:04:04
Imagine you die. You were always a religious person; you had done every necessities of your religion. And you believe that the infidel people, who didn't believe in your God even if they were aware of your religion, will burn in Hell forever. You are happy, because you know you will go to Heaven.
But something is wrong. They aren't angels who are taking you to the gates. They are the ghosts of Ancient Egyptian soldiers. They take you to the throne of Osiris.

That would be so awesome!  :D

Yes, Eric, do post some links.  I need all the help I can get... I was raised by fundamentalists. 

QuoteI mostly just prayed to god to give me the ability to fly [seriously].

That is the cutest thing ever.


Just as long as we're sharing religious backgrounds, I grew up in an atheistic (not agnostic, my dad is a Marxist, and he does not believe in Ghosts 'n Gods by capcom) and I have never had a single bit of divine inspiration in my life. I don't understand what a god is, I never have, and I rejected the absurd claims that a huge allpowerful omniescent benevolent being that created the universe was sitting on his throne in the skies, studying the cosmos for bad behaviour very early in life.

In greece children are made to 'cross their chest' (it's an orthodox thing) and sing a prayer in unison in the mornings. I stopped doing that in fifth grade (9 years old) and when asked about it in public I said 'There is no god. I refuse to pray to him.' Which made principal to call in my father have a talk about my 'religious problem' with him. My father laughed and high-fived me.

Since then, just because it was an interesting passtime, I've read the Bible just to mess with the christians (I probably know more about christianity than the christians, I know their nonexistent god more intimately than they ever had) at school etc, but eventually that stopped being nice. Tearing down people's fallacies in their lives isn't nice. I believe a lot of impossible things, I think life is good and that every day will be better than the last and that I am an important and good person, so on so on that are equally invalid concepts as thinking you'll get what you deserve after death. But when pressured by theists I destroy their god in few simple arguments, just like old times. And my dad high-fives me again.

No, seriously, my dad never told me he thinks no god exists until I was 15 or 16. I was actually worried when they called him at school over it but I'm glad he supported my right to a choice. I never have been made - by him - to pray to anyone (my mother's side of the family is religious and did that sort of shit) and therefore I am 99% unsoiled by this god thing. If you aren't brought up to believe it, it is an outlandish concept for any happy human. Ponder on this. Ponder on the significance that I am a happy person, free from strange guilts and living a worthwhile life and by your standards, I will burn in hell.

About feeling the peer pressure, I've been beaten up by school kids more than once for my flaunting my godlessness. I've also lost an early girlfriend because I didn't believe in God (I believe her parents pressured her into that one as she wasn't exactly convincing when she explained her 'issue' with my behaviour) and so on. Now obviously, in your situation, a whole christian COMMUNITY trapping you, you stand to lose much more than sustain a few beatings and not rub the boobs of a specific girl. But it's worth it, man. It's worth it to know you've searched inside you and found what there is, even what there is in there is an absence of God.

Helm, you are brilliant.  In any debate, even if I agree with you or not, I've always admired how intelligently you approach everything.

It's interesting, the idea of automatically viewing the existence of God as outlandish is outlandish to me.  I hope I can get where you're at, because I'm sick and tired of all the old voices ringing in my head about "You have to have faith in God, and you should be ready to go when he comes back, and your sins will find you out" and on and on and on. 

Ah, for the joy of an independent mind!

Quote"You have to have faith in God, and you should be ready to go when he comes back, and your sins will find you out"

Oh man, that's scary! Why would a person inflict this mental illness on another?!

It's like Dawkins said in that video, Raggit. You are athiestic towards Thor and Allah and all that. You know what it's like to not believe in something already, to be totally confused as to why someone would believe in something, it just needs to be extended a tiny bit. Easier written on a forum then done!

Anyway, I strongly recommend the Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast. Hopefully you can appreciate their humor but the host and president of the New England Skeptical Society Steve Novella is an academic neurologist on full-time faculty at Yale University School of Medicine. So when he talks about the brain, he knows what he says! They talk a lot about pseudoscience but sometimes they talk about things like how people with epillepsy in certain parts of the brain are hyper-religious [raising the question, are humans hard wired to create faith?] and how one can induce near death experiences on a medical table without killing anyone. I wish I could point you to a specific podcast but they have over 90 of them and the newer ones are better than the older especially after getting Rebecca Watson in on it.

Randi.org is another place I frequent, again it's mostly about pseudoscience but there's so much there about everything that it's worth it. Check out his investigations into Peter Popoff and other faith healers.

Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris was good, sort of a primer to The End of Faith if you don't feel like reading an entire book...

The God Delusion by Dawkins is something I just finished up on. If you read up on Cargo Cults that might help put things in perspective too. Entire religions springing up seemingly out of no where with outrageous beliefs and customs all within the last 40 years! Amazing!

If you ever do give Dawkins a chance and you find yourself flinching at his frank demeanor, think back to any time you've heard a fundementalist say so and so was going to hell for all eternity because they hold a seperate belief.. That's insulting.

Religion be damned! I'm becoming a Pastafarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastafarian)!

Seriously, I'm a Christian, and although Christians tend to disagree with the LDS/Mormon church/cult, monkey_05_06 is actually the only person who has posted that I agree with. Kudos.

Now there is something else I'm wondering.
As Erenan asked; "Why ethics?"

Most of us think that if a good God exists, He would judge us with our morals more importantly than our worships and religious necessities; don't we think that way? God wants us to be good people.
But why? Why we suppose the morals to be so important?
I think it is just because we can't think of something else to be judged with. Only the worships/religious works and the moral actions. Does someone in world think that God will judge people according on how much they jump with scissors in their hands ("OK, you have jumped with scissors 6 hours per day, you may go to Heaven") how many apples they ate instead of oranges ("You have eaten 50,000 oranges but only 20,000 apples! Go to Hell!") or something else unreasonable to judge you can even imagine?

Why we believe we will be judged by our moral actions is because there is nothing other reasonable act (except worship) to do.

And another point:
How can we be sure God is really good?
I have an aphorism: "God is not evil, Evil is God."
Of course I can't prove my aphorism, but it is what I believe. How can we be sure God won't send us ALL people to Hell; if he is able to burn the people eternally who were good, but not believing in true religion?

God judges people on their actions, but actions aren't what's going to get you into heaven. Salvation is sort of like the cake, and good actions are like the icing, etc. Once God redeems you, you can't be 'unsaved'. Sure, you can distance yourself from God, maybe even turn your back on Him (like Raggit and a few others have), but eventually God will probably. I had an uncle who passed away about 4 years ago, who was brought up as a Christian, going to church, etc. but after his childhood didn't really follow any of that. In his 70s, he found out that he had lung cancer (from smoking too much). His wife was a nominal Christian, and she got him to talk to a minister. Over the next few years, he'd talk on a regular basis with the minister, and soon after that he came back to Christianity, and was baptized. Now, this guy had lived a not so great life- smoking, drinking, frequent cussing, etc. He didn't let that stop him from being baptized. 2 years after being baptized, he passed away. Sure, he probably won't get rewarded for good deeds, but he's in heaven. Doing good deeds are supposed to complement faith- not the other way around. If you have faith in Jesus/God, blah blah blah, then you can go to heaven, no matter what you've done. If you also practice good actions, you'll be rewarded after you die. So if you have faith without good deeds, you're not really pleasing God as mush as you should. If you have good deeds without faith, you're not going anywhere special in the afterlife. 

Quote from: Gord10
Most of us think that if a good God exists, He would judge us with our morals more importantly than our worships and religious necessities; don't we think that way? God wants us to be good people.
But why? Why we suppose the morals to be so important?
I think it is just because we can't think of something else to be judged with. Only the worships/religious works and the moral actions. Does someone in world think that God will judge people according on how much they jump with scissors in their hands ("OK, you have jumped with scissors 6 hours per day, you may go to Heaven") how many apples they ate instead of oranges ("You have eaten 50,000 oranges but only 20,000 apples! Go to Hell!") or something else unreasonable to judge you can even imagine?

Corporate mega-churches have turned Christianity into just another 'religion', where everyone has to wear their WWJD bracelets, put on their fish symbols on their cars, only listen to 'Christian' music, and then God will bless them. God judges people (I think) based on how they have served those in need. In Matthew 25 (I forget which verses, too lazy to look 'em up), after Christ is judging the nations for their deeds, He says, "Have run the race, and kept the faith? Have you clothed Me when I was naked? Have you fed Me when I was hungry? When I was thirsty, did you give Me something to drink? When I was a stranger, did you invite Me in? When I was sick, did you visit Me? and in prison, did you come to Me?" To which the judged people reply, "Lord, when did we see you naked, and hungry, and thirsty, and a stranger, and sick, and in prison?" And Jesus replies, "Whatever extent that you did these things to the least of people, you did it to Me."

So in other words, whatever we did to/for other people, is also what we are doing to Jesus, and that's what our actions are going to be judged upon.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 14:50:15
And Jesus replies, "Whatever extent that you did these things to the least of people, you did it to Me."

Yeah, that is an excellent quote. Of all bible passages, that's one of my favourite.

It's nice to hear somebody talking sense, Steel Drummer.   :)

If more Christians spent time in helping the needy and being compassionate instead of judgemental, I would feel a little different.

However, I do have to give credit to the church (Seventh-Day Adventists) that I was raised in and departed from.  They DO put a lot of effort into distaster relief (which I participated in, only half-willingly, though.  I was just sort of dragged there by my parents.)

And they also stock up food for poor families and the homeless.  Every church member brings some food items, and they put them all into a big food pantry and distribute it. 

That is the kind of behavior I think that they SUPPOSED to have, but all the time their doing that, they're also very fundamentalistic, and many times have a holier-than-thou attitude, because THEY go to church on Saturday instead of Sunday, and THEY don't eat meat, and THEY don't wear any jewelry, and there's no excuse for anybody who doesn't abide by Adventist doctrine if  "God's truth" has already been shared with them.

7th Day Adventurist? What do you think of the 7 Days series?

Jess and I have a common desire that churches [when not being used for mass prayer] should be houses for the homeless. You've got this huge building that pays no taxes just sitting there being useless most of the day why not open the doors and let homeless people stay in each and every one of them! I think churches in NYC go so far as allowing homeless people to sleep on their steps.

My favourite Bible quote is one of the following.
Jesus saying, "You have chosen wisely...do this and you will live." Just because it's so out of character. It's like a quote from a movie trailer.

That, or "God does not like that." from Leviticus 18. Just because it's so out of place in the passage and has been, quite blatantly, added into the passage at a later date.

Since we're talking about religious backgrounds now, I might as well share mine. My parents haven't been to church since they were little children, with my dad being an atheist and my mum being agnostic. My mum doesn't bother with church or anything because she thinks that if there is any god, then living a good life is enough. Which she would be doing anyway.

I remember being in primary school, and being taught about Jesus and various miracles. I really wish I could remember how I reacted to it all. I think I took it as... something that was learnt. Like history or English. I remember reading it, learning it, drawing the pictures, and then not feeling anything else about it. My first memories of thinking about religion in a meaningful way would be a Christmas carol service, when I began to think "What the hell?"

I didn't quite follow why everyone was getting so excited. I mean, I'd prayed for bikes and magic powers a bunch of times and that didn't happen. When I moved into grammar school, I chose to go to a catholoc school. However, this is because it is right next to my house  :D .

Hilariously, I'm top of the year in RE. Apparently, believing in god can seriously impair your ability to... know anything about god. Being in Northern Ireland, religion is usually a big thing. I'm happy to be able to say that I went to a Protestant primary school, currently go to a Catholic grammar school, and feel nothing. It also makes me all nice and cross-community.

My attitude towards religion today is quite apathetic. I don't parade my atheism, and they don't try to convert me. On the one hand, religion does some good things for society. It makes worthless people feel good about themselves and gives hope to people in dire situations. It has its dangers as well, for instance when people try to infringe liberties on the basis of religion, but I guess I'll have to deal with those.

I don't think Christians should just drop their beliefs instantly, because I tell them to. But I would like if they had studied their faith in the same depth I have. I have a ridiculously happy life, and I have tremendous inner peace. You know, all that stuff you're supposed to only get from churches.

I grew in a Catholic family and was a good Christian until I really read the Bible and saw really how primitive and naive were the foundations of what was my ethic, my guide to life.

Declaring I didn't believe "all that bullshit", politeness in not my virtue, only brought me many discussions and problems at home and school. It was a religious school too.

I started looking different sources making  own errors, taking own conclusions to elaborate my ethic, one I could believe. It was a hard job, and after all the mess I have more or less the same ethics as my parents.

And not only that, I can do nothing to stop a President bombing peoples houses 'cos God told' him.

So kids, don't read. You'll only suffer more.

Quote from: Mr Flibble on Sat 28/04/2007 17:24:18
Hilariously, I'm top of the year in RE. Apparently, believing in god can seriously impair your ability to... know anything about god. Being in Northern Ireland, religion is usually a big thing. I'm happy to be able to say that I went to a Protestant primary school, currently go to a Catholic grammar school, and feel nothing. It also makes me all nice and cross-community.

Most kids in a Christian school are turned off from hearing about God because the Bible is treated more like a textbook than a guidebook for living.

Quote from: MrColossal on Sat 28/04/2007 16:54:39
Jess and I have a common desire that churches [when not being used for mass prayer] should be houses for the homeless. You've got this huge building that pays no taxes just sitting there being useless most of the day why not open the doors and let homeless people stay in each and every one of them! I think churches in NYC go so far as allowing homeless people to sleep on their steps.

That's true, but the churches should also be ministering to the homeless. It seems like churches nowadays are scared to tell anyone about Christ for fear of offending someone. Yet..

Quote from: Raggit on Sat 28/04/2007 15:57:56

If more Christians spent time in helping the needy and being compassionate instead of judgemental, I would feel a little different.

A lot of Christians are hypocrites, especially concerning music. They feel that if a band doesn't mention God in every song then it's bad to listen to. Or if it's not a 'CCM' or a 'Christian' band, then it's bad. That's really, really, hypocritical. What's wrong with jazz music? Half of the songs don't even have vocals in them! And the 'Christian' music scene looks just like the secular one. If I didn't know a band was 'Christian' (so called, at least), then I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. For example:
P.O.D. (A 'Christian' group)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/22/Pod-new.jpg)
Rage Against The Machine (secular group)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fb/Ratmband.jpg)

Quote...because the Bible is treated more like a textbook than a guidebook for living.

I can't agree that's a bad thing.

QuoteThat's true, but the churches should also be ministering to the homeless.

No, they'd be taking the homeless in because they act like Jesus wants them to. Forcing something down their throats in return is the opposite.

QuoteIt seems like churches nowadays are scared to tell anyone about Christ for fear of offending someone.

They're worried about offending people, except there was that one time when the Pope compared atheists to satanists.

Quote

QuoteAnd Jesus replies, "Whatever extent that you did these things to the least of people, you did it to Me."

Yeah, that is an excellent quote. Of all bible passages, that's one of my favourite.

But, why is the image of Jesus needed here? Can't you look at someone else and see another human being that's equal to you?

Quote from: Damien on Sat 28/04/2007 19:10:38

Quote...because the Bible is treated more like a textbook than a guidebook for living.

I can't agree that's a bad thing.

So you think being overly legalistic is good?

Quote from: Damien
No, they'd be taking the homeless in because they act like Jesus wants them to. Forcing something down their throats in return is the opposite.

Telling someone that the only way to be saved is through Jesus isn't 'forcing it down their throat', it's telling them that they need forgiveness for their sins. Opening up a church and letting them in is great, but that doesn't grant them salvation.

Wow... this is getting as off-topic as......... (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=25725.0)

Except longer, and with more topics. This is, hands down, the most interesting thread I've ever seen.

hahaha.

It's so funny that people still believe in god and jesus.

It's so primitive, it really is. It's so unbelievably primitive and silly.

silly people.

I love hearing religious people argue and try to convince people, including themselves, that god is real. You have no idea, being religious and actually believing yourselves... you have no idea how funny and stupid it looks to anybody with half a brain. Anybody with a bit of "cop on" as they say in Ireland...

In this day and age, that people still believe in invisible fairies in the sky is pretty sad.

QuoteSo you think being overly legalistic is good?

No, because laws are like religion and gods - human products. And humans make mistakes.

QuoteTelling someone that the only way to be saved is through Jesus

Is it? You're saying this as it's a fact. And why? Because the book with the cross says so.

I guess you believe this to be 100% true. Now, imagine you were born on Islam territory. There would be another truth for you and you would swear in it like you do now.

Besides, that's just what I was talking about (forcing it down).

Jesus did not die for me.
Do not pray for me, I'll be fine.
I was not a product of sin and wasn't born in one so stop using scare tactics on me.

QuoteOpening up a church and letting them in is great, but that doesn't grant them salvation.

No, a steady job and a place to live is their salvation.

I think it's the fear that's instilled at a young age that keeps people believing, even if it's just a tiny little pinprick of "belief" at the back of their minds.

A sense of "I don't believe in God...not really...I mean, I don't believe in him, but..." that keeps people from totally separating themselves from the pseudo-faith impressed upon them by organized religion.

So what do you believe? Random creatures evolving from primordial ooze after a random bang that happened in the universe? How could God not exist? Everything in creation is so complex, it couldn't have happened randomly. Scientists have barely even scratched the surface of the human body, let alone anything else. Less than 20% of species have even been discovered yet.

Quote from: Meowster on Sat 28/04/2007 19:29:17
hahaha.


It's so funny that people still believe in god and jesus.

It's so primitive, it really is. It's so unbelievably primitive and silly.

silly people.

I love hearing religious people argue and try to convince people, including themselves, that god is real. You have no idea, being religious and actually believing yourselves... you have no idea how funny and stupid it looks to anybody with half a brain. Anybody with a bit of "cop on" as they say in Ireland...

In this day and age, that people still believe in invisible fairies in the sky is pretty sad.

Yeah... Fairies. Right. It's pretty sad not to believe in a God. Give some reasons why it's so primitive. 

Quote from: Damien
Quote
So you think being overly legalistic is good?

No, because laws are like religion and gods - human products. And humans make mistakes.

Quote
Telling someone that the only way to be saved is through Jesus

Is it? You're saying this as it's a fact. And why? Because the book with the cross says so.

I guess you believe this to be 100% true. Now, imagine you were born on Islam territory. There would be another truth for you and you would swear in it like you do now.

Besides, that's just what I was talking about (forcing it down).

Quote
Opening up a church and letting them in is great, but that doesn't grant them salvation.

No, a steady job and a place to live is their salvation.

It baffles me how quick you people are to reject God and Jesus Christ. Why not reject Allah? Buddha? Shiva? Guru Nanak? 

Quote
Jesus did not die for me.
Do not pray for me, I'll be fine.
I was not a product of sin and wasn't born in one so stop using scare tactics on me.

Well, at least blasphemy against Christ is forgivable by Him. But blaspheming the Holy Spirit... that's another issue. All of you- so stiff necked! Why do you all curse in Christ's name? Why not Allah's?

Quote
Is it? You're saying this as it's a fact. And why? Because the book with the cross says so.

I guess you believe this to be 100% true. Now, imagine you were born on Islam territory. There would be another truth for you and you would swear in it like you do now.

Islam kills itself off with blatant contradictions. In some places it takes an almost biblical stance on violence, then it says to beat your wife.

QuoteIt baffles me how quick you people are to reject God and Jesus Christ. Why not reject Allah? Buddha? Shiva? Guru Nanak? 

I believe that the people you are referring to here do this. They recject religion! And I support them fully.

QuoteYeah... Fairies. Right. It's pretty sad not to believe in a God. Give some reasons why it's so primitive. 

What I believe is the reason for religion is that people did not know what were happening. Different happenings in nature that seemed confusing and unexplainable (maybe even magic) would have screwed with their head to believe that what they saw was over-natural and they would eventually start praying to someone/something for the good things to keep happening and for the tornadoes and stuff to piss off.

[Well, at least blasphemy against Christ is forgivable by Him. But blaspheming the Holy Spirit... that's another issue. All of you- so stiff necked! Why do you all curse in Christ's name? Why not Allah's? ]

Your god and holy spirit can go to hell for all I care. Because they all exist in your head! This counts for all gods. No matter who made them up.

Quote
What I believe is the reason for religion is that people did not know what were happening. Different happenings in nature that seemed confusing and unexplainable (maybe even magic) would have screwed with their head to believe that what they saw was over-natural and they would eventually start praying to someone/something for the good things to keep happening and for the tornadoes and stuff to piss off.

Haha! :D Magic??! That's kid's stuff. You seriously are telling me that you are an atheist, yet you believe in magic. 

Quote from: vict0r
Your god and holy spirit can go to hell for all I care. Because they all exist in your head! This counts for all gods. No matter who made them up.

So if they don't exist, how can they go to hell?

Vict0r, why don't you go to hell, and then see what you think of God. And while you're at it, read the Bible. Get some answers about life, instead of believing in magic, like something straight out of a Disney film.

QuoteSo what do you believe? Random creatures evolving from primordial ooze after a random bang that happened in the universe?

Yes, evolution, among other things.

QuoteHow could God not exist? Everything in creation is so complex, it couldn't have happened randomly.

And where did He came from?

QuoteScientists have barely even scratched the surface of the human body, let alone anything else. Less than 20% of species have even been discovered yet.

And that's your argument? We know little, so there must be a God?

QuoteIt baffles me how quick you people are to reject God and Jesus Christ. Why not reject Allah? Buddha? Shiva? Guru Nanak?

Being an atheist surely includes not believing in those, too.

QuoteWell, at least blasphemy against Christ is forgivable by Him. But blaspheming the Holy Spirit... that's another issue. All of you- so stiff necked! Why do you all curse in Christ's name? Why not Allah's?

Why do you assume it matters to me? Also, I see no cursing.

QuoteIslam kills itself off with blatant contradictions. In some places it takes an almost biblical stance on violence, then it says to beat your wife.

I agree, but that wasn't my point (but you already know that). Let me ask you again, do you agree that if you were born on Islam territory, in an Islamic family, you would be 100% with that religion, as you are now with Christianity?

QuoteSo what do you believe? Random creatures evolving from primordial ooze after a random bang that happened in the universe?

Evolution and natural selection is not random and the only people who say it is are religious people trying to disprove it. You don't understand the science behind it, sorry.

QuoteIt baffles me how quick you people are to reject God and Jesus Christ. Why not reject Allah? Buddha? Shiva? Guru Nanak?  

I reject God, Jesus, Allah, Buddha, Thor, Zeus, Loki, Shiva, Guru Nanak, The Dalai Llama, Sylvia Browne, Pat Robertson, Deepak Chopra, anything that was on the old TV show In Search Of, ghosts, the supernatural, the holy spirit, the resurrection, the transubstantiation, a soul, sin, uh... Baal? Anything else you want me to reject?

And who said anything about quick? You say it as if I haven't given any thought to religion or the supernatural. I've thought long and hard about it and I realize [not believe] that it's all crap and useless to me.

QuoteIslam kills itself off with blatant contradictions.

I'm not, and I hope no one else does, going to get into a "oh yea? the bible says this terrible thing!" "Oh yea, Islam says this terrible thing!" because it's pointless. It'd go one forever and you don't care.

Jesus did not die for me either. If he did I never asked him to. I also never asked this supposed God to create me. Maybe I was happier not being created. Maybe I was nothing not being created and if I was nothing than I was neither sad or happy so what's the point of creating me? If I gave someone out of the goodness of my heart 20 bucks and they turned around and bought me something with it I'd be pissed. If I gave someone 20 bucks and told them that the only thing they can do with that money is buy me something, I'd hope they'd give it right back and tell me to piss off.

QuoteOpening up a church and letting them in is great, but that doesn't grant them salvation.

Basically what you want to do is bring a homeless person in, give them something to eat, give them a shower, maybe a new pair of pants and then say "Oh by the way, you will burn in hell for all eternity unless you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior." Holy shit like their life isn't bad enough!

If you believe that their life is terrible but their AFTERLIFE is what you're more worried about, why don't you go to Iraq and try converting people there? You go, maybe you'll convert some people and you'll probably die. You die, you go to heaven. Not a big deal is it? I'm always confused why deeply religious people aren't out in war torn areas all the time running into mine fields to save children, taking bullets for doctors trying to remove shrapnel from a soldiers head or any other heroic action. If you die you go to heaven! AWESOME! You did some good for the world and now you're in heaven, right?

Also, why do religious people cry at funerals of loved ones?

I am a very happy human being. I am an animal brought about by natural selection and evolution who has a super girlfriend for 6 or so years, a family that loves me, a job that I love, a cat that explodes with cuteness, an apartment to live in, enough money to more than get by and the only thing that scares me is losing my harddrive in a crash. I'm not afraid of the bogeyman or ghosts or sin or the devil. Humans have a fear of the unknown, sure, but not a fear of make believe.

My life is great but I don't think a true believer will ever accept that.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 20:15:34
Haha! :D Magic??! That's kid's stuff. You seriously are telling me that you are an atheist, yet you believe in magic. 

Dude :P They would see it as magic stuff.. Misunderstanding there.

QuoteVict0r, why don't you go to hell, and then see what you think of God. And while you're at it, read the Bible. Get some answers about life, instead of believing in magic, like something straight out of a Disney film.

I'm actually reading the bible. How much I read at the time varies, but I am reading it. If I were to go to hell I would prolly not grow too fond of your god for sending me there.



And I don't believe in magic. As I said, I'm quite against organized religion.

QuoteSo if they don't exist, how can they go to hell?

As I believe that they only exist in your head (both god and hell), it could go to to hell there.

QuoteMy life is great but I don't think a true believer will ever accept that.

:)

Seeing as how I'm an atheist, or at least agnostic, I will indeed curse Allah, and any other deities you may care to name. But what you said about Buddha...

Okay, everyone, listen up:

BUDDHA IS NOT A GOD. BUDDHISTS DO NOT THINK HE IS GOD. BUDDHISM DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A GOD. IT DOESN'T ADDRESS THE ISSUE.

Buddhism is a religion in name only. It's more like a way of life.

PS: I do become really angry when people start arguing about religion, because I used to do the same with people in person. I once even did it on a Christian talk show on the radio. But I have grown up [some] since then. It's just that Christians usually misrepresent atheistic arguments, and I find it rather unfair. If anything I say comes off as personal, I would like to say right now that it isn't.

Quote from: MrColossal on Sat 28/04/2007 20:22:54My life is great but I don't think a true believer will ever accept that.

It's because they'll get the last laugh! Just you wait! When we all die, you'll go to HELL because you were a good person who didn't thumbs-up to Jesus whenever you did something nice!

Burn, Mr "I think my life is so good"!

quick reply to Orator:

Can I reject the silly idea of perfect enlightenment and being tempted by demons?

Quote from: Ghormak on Sat 28/04/2007 20:33:18
Burn, Mr "I think my life is so good"!

Indeed! You're not so Colossal now, are ya?!






:=

Quote
Give some reasons why it's so primitive. 

An specific example of an specific Religion. Not so much years ago the Catholic Church made a revision of their Catechism, they don't do this often and is an important text. They still condemned Homosexuality.

And what is the basis for that? A text that in the next paragraph condemns mixing wool and leather, eating pork and going to Church with a harmed testicle. A bit later this book recommends killing your son in public if he is lazy and eats too much.

That text (Was it Deuteronomy?) is a bit too primitive for my taste to be taken seriously as an basis for my ethics.

But the problem, as I see it, is not the Bible alone, is this idea that something can be right without need of analysis or discussion.

Quote from: MrColossal on Sat 28/04/2007 20:22:54
I also never asked this supposed God to create me. Maybe I was happier not being created. Maybe I was nothing not being created and if I was nothing than I was neither sad or happy so what's the point of creating me? If I gave someone out of the goodness of my heart 20 bucks and they turned around and bought me something with it I'd be pissed. If I gave someone 20 bucks and told them that the only thing they can do with that money is buy me something, I'd hope they'd give it right back and tell me to piss off.

Actually Islam has an explanation for this issue:
Every souls were created by God before the start of time  (I may know the 'time' of the creation wrong; just sure it was before the creation of the Earth and human being).
God asks every soul "Do you want to live and accept my rules for the Earth life?" and the whole souls accept it. But we all forget these events when we get born.
This is why we are not allowed to think in the "I also never asked this supposed God to create me." way.

My personal thoughts about this:
If such an event really happened; it is not so different from having sex with a 13 years old girl with mental illness. "But she really wanted this, it is not rape!!!"

Quote from: MrColossal on Sat 28/04/2007 20:34:25
quick reply to Orator:

Can I reject the silly idea of perfect enlightenment and being tempted by demons?

Sure can!

But don't reject the existence of historically documented persons. It's unhealthy.

(I'm not a Buddhist, see. I just thing Buddha's a nice guy. Same as Jesus, really...)

EDIT:

Quote from: Ghormak on Sat 28/04/2007 20:33:18
Burn, Mr "I think my life is so good"!

When I first read it, I interpreted it as you being like Kelso, and going 'BURN!' Which would be awesome.

Instead, I see you are really more of a Fred Phelps 'BURN, SINNER, BURN!' type guy.

This discussion just went downhill. So sad.

The Orator, I'm not all that knowledgeable about Buddhism, and I realise that it's mostly just a way of life, but I'm sure that they worship Buddha. I've seen them sit down in rows infront of a statue and chant continuously: "I seek refuge in Buddha".

Just something to note, but if someone talked/preached about God the amount some people in this thread went to bash religion, they'd be shot down in flames for "pushing religion down everyone's throats".

Quote from: Babar on Sat 28/04/2007 20:47:12
The Orator, I'm not all that knowledgeable about Buddhism, and I realise that it's mostly just a way of life, but I'm sure that they worship Buddha. I've seen them sit down in rows infront of a statue and chant continuously: "I seek refuge in Buddha".

Well, that's not very nice of them! Buddha asked not to be worshiped!

Quote from: Babar on Sat 28/04/2007 20:47:12
Just something to note, but if someone talked/preached about God the amount some people in this thread went to bash religion, they'd be shot down in flames for "pushing religion down everyone's throats".

That's exactly why I stopped arguing about this with other people. I felt so hypocritical. I'm just here to clear out errors in arguments.

Quote from: The Orator on Sat 28/04/2007 20:41:20Instead, I see you are really more of a Fred Phelps 'BURN, SINNER, BURN!' type guy.

Haha, no. Fuck god.

Do not confuse disagreeing with bashing.

Quote from: Ghormak on Sat 28/04/2007 20:56:22

Quote from: The Orator on Sat 28/04/2007 20:41:20Instead, I see you are really more of a Fred Phelps 'BURN, SINNER, BURN!' type guy.

Haha, no. Fuck god.

Oh, yes. In hindsight, I didn't expect Fred Phelps to call anyone Mr 'I think my life is so good!'

Sorry!

oh boy!

Lovely!

A creationist! ;D

Ah well...

I can certainly accept some kind of "magical" (<-notice the "") force somewhere, somehow (don't care, don't ask) who ... well helps me when I need it and doesn't mind if I pisses him (see? a male god! yup! ;D ;D ;D) off...

On the other hand, I totally refuse to do anything with religion, whether this is budhism (a religion, yup), christianity, moronism, whatever. Exactly because there are chances that the ancient Greeks had it right in the first place, I don't want to waste my chances... (ok, not serious here, but definately, there's no way a sinlge religion will have it right!).

so I take my chances alone. being nice, helpful, masterbating a lot, with pron, having sex with my wife and no one else (it wouldn't be... nice :p) and not screwing up anybody, at least to my knowledge...

That's about it for me :D

Quote from: Ghormak on Sat 28/04/2007 20:33:18
It's because they'll get the last laugh! Just you wait! When we all die, you'll go to HELL because you were a good person who didn't thumbs-up to Jesus whenever you did something nice!

You know what the funny thing is? If there is a heaven and hell, I'd rather go to hell because that's where everybody I know is going to be ;)

I know (and I'm effin' serious) 2 christians, 1 muslim and 3 agnostics. Everybody else is an atheist, and that's tens of people in my direct neighbourhood. Religion is pretty much seen as being backwards here, which is a direct consequence of 44.4% of the Dutch population saying of themselves that they're Atheist (Cahtolicism is second at 27%). We don't discuss religion unless it's about the *cough*US*cough* or the *cough*muslims*cough* which we're told we should be afraid of, but really aren't.

Religion is a non-issue for me and I gotta say, my life is full of good things and good people. I am, and I'm not trying to sound arrogant, a good person and I help whoever needs it if I can. If not believing in an invisible man up in the clouds is going to mean that for some reason I'm not worthy to deserve a reward in the afterlife, ENTIRELY regardless of my actions otherwise, God's got his priorities all f'ed up. Honestly.

Quote...and not screwing up anybody...

Bingo!

Quote from: MrColossal on Sat 28/04/2007 20:22:54
Jesus did not die for me either. If he did I never asked him to. I also never asked this supposed God to create me. Maybe I was happier not being created. Maybe I was nothing not being created and if I was nothing than I was neither sad or happy so what's the point of creating me?

Jesus died for everyone, whether you wanted Him to or not.

Quote from: MrColossal on Sat 28/04/2007 20:22:54
Evolution and natural selection is not random and the only people who say it is are religious people trying to disprove it. You don't understand the science behind it, sorry.

You know what? Before Darwin, and even during Darwin's time, scientists still believed in creation- even those who didn't believe in a particular god.

I have a quote from Bob Marley that really disproves evolution (and I'm paraphrasing it here): 

"If evolution exists, then why aren't monkeys changing into people nowadays?"

Ghormak (regarding your Buddhism comment): Christianity is a way of life too, but people have gotten so legalistic that it's become a 'religion'. 

Tartalo: Catholicism is not really true Christianity. For one, the Roman Empire just took all the old god and goddess worship stuff and put it into a biblical mindset. That's why they're praying to Mary; before the Roman Catholic Church was formed, they prayed to Venus (or any other female goddesses). Catholicism is a really wacked out view of Christianity, to say the least; always revising their theology (most of which is just made up, or else taking the Bible out of context)- recently the new pope said that hell is no longer a state of mind, it's a real place. The Bible already established that fact. 

About the Deuteronomy thing: most of those laws no longer apply any more. That book was included in the Bible to show what the original laws were like (and I think the book you meant was Leviticus, which has the laws). After Jesus came, He introduced a freer, kind of 'religion of love' belief in God. Animal sacrifices were no longer necessary, and people could eat 'unclean' animals. 

Orator:

Quote(I'm not a Buddhist, see. I just thing Buddha's a nice guy. Same as Jesus, really...)

Yes, Buddha probably had some good things going for him, morally, but with any of these 'faith' founders: Mohammed, Gautama, etc.- None of them claimed to be God's son, or even asked to receive worship. The only one who did was Jesus. A lot of people nowadays hate Christianity because of a stereotyped view of the American 'MacJesus' sort of Christianity, but that's not what it's really like. Televangelists are sleazebags.   

One thing that bugs me the most about people (especially on these forums) is not that they follow a different faith than I do- it's when they say that there's not a god of any kind, and they reject any sort of faith- bashing it constantly. 

Quote from: Babar
Just something to note, but if someone talked/preached about God the amount some people in this thread went to bash religion, they'd be shot down in flames for "pushing religion down everyone's throats".

That is incredibly true. It only proves that there is a god, because those who preach Him get bashed, but those who reject Him don't.

Quote from: nikolas
steel drummer,

don't tell me that you are honestly trying to prove the existance of god in a forum like AGS..

Yes, and I'm being outnumbered by those who believe in evolution mumbo-jumbo. I'd rather join sides with a Muslim than someone who held the views of MrColossal or Nikolas (or almost anybody here).

steel drummer,

don't tell me that you are honestly trying to prove the existance of god in a forum like AGS...???

QuoteIf evolution exists, then why aren't monkeys changing into people nowadays?

Because evolution usually takes an extremely long time?

And please answer my earlier post with misunderstandings cleared up. Don't just try to mock me because you thought that I believed in magic.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 21:05:27

Quote from: Babar
Just something to note, but if someone talked/preached about God the amount some people in this thread went to bash religion, they'd be shot down in flames for "pushing religion down everyone's throats".

That is incredibly true. It only proves that there is a god, because those who preach Him get bashed, but those who reject Him don't.

Wait, so you're argument proves that racism is valid, because for the most part racists are bashed, and people who aren't racist are not.

EDIT: Please don't think I'm bashing religion. I don't think that does any good, especially on the Internet. I just had these ideas and wanted to share them. Feel free to offer me spiritual advice.

Once upon a time there was a huge, blue teapot orbiting the Earth. No person on the Earth could see the blue teapot, and nor had they ever touched it. However, each and every one of them steadfastly believed that the teapot was there, and silently protected them.


I love that little story as an analagy for Religion  :)



How about this? Please read this if you're just skipping through this thread, because I think I have a good point. How many people in the world join a religion through their own initiative? I mean, if you took a group of people at birth and locked them in a cage, and told them to think about life, d you think they would be visited by god? Depending on how much you taught them about science, they might think the sun was a conscious entity. A god, if you will. How else could it move in the sky?

Oh wait, people did believe that didn't they. Relgious people, can you understand my point here? Religion is something you adopt when you have no idea what's happening. Those people in the cave would possibly invent beings akin to your own gods, when trying to explain the world. They would never say "Oh of course, it was Jesus." Not if you didn't tell them. So I'm sorry, but it's just something you were told. Like if I told you that you could eat lead and that it would be fortuitous to do so. If I told you that from an early age, you'd believe it just as steadfastly.

Until you stopped, observed the world, and analysed the facts, of course.

Don't tell me you're trying to prove the existance of god through Bob Marley?

Also, you really have no idea how the science works, and that's ok. No one ever taught it to you probably. But if you have no desire to learn then you have no ability to speak on the subject so I'd stop.

And saying god doesn't exist is not bashing.

People who believe in UFOs are also constantly "bashed" by real scientists, does that mean UFOs are real? How about White Supremecists? They're always being bashed for being wrong.

Anyway, I'm mostly interested in other people's growth out of religion, any other stories?

QuoteLet me ask you again, do you agree that if you were born on Islam territory, in an Islamic family, you would be 100% with that religion, as you are now with Christianity?

Take your time.

QuoteJesus died for everyone, whether you wanted Him to or not.

It doesn't work that way. You can't assume everybody believes in this. I don't care, but a member of another religion would be offended.

Quote"If evolution exists, then why aren't monkeys changing into people nowadays?"

Remember this quote?

QuoteEvolution and natural selection is not random and the only people who say it is are religious people trying to disprove it. You don't understand the science behind it, sorry.

QuoteThat is incredibly true. It only proves that there is a god, because those who preach Him get bashed, but those who reject Him don't.

Actually, it proves nothing. You just wrote it as a fact, but that doesn't make it one.

Quote
Vict0r, why don't you go to hell, and then see what you think of God. And while you're at it, read the Bible. Get some answers about life, instead of believing in magic, like something straight out of a Disney film.

haha Vict0r believes in Magic? You're the one who thinks a magical being came along and magically created everything using magic...!

Quote(from Colossal)

I am a very happy human being. I am an animal brought about by natural selection and evolution who has a super girlfriend for 6 or so years, a family that loves me, a job that I love, a cat that explodes with cuteness, an apartment to live in, enough money to more than get by and the only thing that scares me is losing my harddrive in a crash. I'm not afraid of the bogeyman or ghosts or sin or the devil. Humans have a fear of the unknown, sure, but not a fear of make believe.

I respect you 1 billion percent for this paragraph and I'm not even sure why.

Anyway.

god eh.

Why bring people in the world for the sole purpose of worshipping you?

Selfish. And gay!

QuoteSteel Drummer of religion bashers:

That is incredibly true. It only proves that there is a god, because those who preach Him get bashed, but those who reject Him don't.

That's not proof. In the same way, I could say that my boyfriend is GOD because I get bashed for talking about him all the time, but people who don't talk about him all the time, don't. Logic? I think not. Although my boyfriend IS actually god, so I guess it sort of is!

QuoteMohammed, Gautama, etc.- None of them claimed to be God's son, or even asked to receive worship- Jesus did.

It's really sad and pathetic, needy and selfish that Jesus asked to receive worship.

Where are you from, steel drummer? I'm guessing some kind of middle american state...

Quote from: Damien
And that's your argument? We know little, so there must be a God?

And your (and just about everyone else's) argument is "We know little, so there is no God."

vict0r: Stop mocking Christ and I'll stop mocking you.

Quote from: vict0r
What I believe is the reason for religion is that people did not know what were happening. Different happenings in nature that seemed confusing and unexplainable (maybe even magic) would have screwed with their head to believe that what they saw was over-natural and they would eventually start praying to someone/something for the good things to keep happening and for the tornadoes and stuff to piss off.

You want me to give it to you straight? Why are people so quick to disprove God? I have never heard any of you disprove evolution, or humanism, or scientology, and whatever else there is that doesn't follow a god.
So what do you believe happens after you die, if heaven and hell are a state of mind? 
Seriously, what's the point of reading the Bible if you condemn organized religion, and God, and all that stuff? Why are you reading it?

Quote from: Damien on Sat 28/04/2007 21:16:34

QuoteLet me ask you again, do you agree that if you were born on Islam territory, in an Islamic family, you would be 100% with that religion, as you are now with Christianity?

Take your time.

It is time.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 21:18:38

You want me to give it to you straight? Why are people so quick to disprove God? I have never heard any of you disprove evolution, or humanism

And there is a very good reason for this...

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 21:05:27

Quote from: nikolas
steel drummer,

don't tell me that you are honestly trying to prove the existance of god in a forum like AGS..

Yes, and I'm being outnumbered by those who believe in evolution mumbo-jumbo. I'd rather join sides with a Muslim than someone who held the views of MrColossal or Nikolas (or almost anybody here).

You've GOT to be kidding me! You quoted me, on the post BEFORE MINE??? hihi

what exactly are my views? That I believe in a god, that could very well be your god, or a muslim god (who btw shares pretty much you opinions as well, you ignorant!). Or that I want to be nice. In that case you don't want to be nice...

*ahem* steel drummer (god I hate this nick, why was yoda so bad??), disaproving god, comes with the awful things that religions comes with, and along with the ignorace, as there is no proof. Science provides proof. That's the difference..

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 21:18:38
Seriously, what's the point of reading the Bible if you condemn organized religion, and God, and all that stuff? Why are you reading it?

Well, I can't speak for vict0r, but what I have read of the Bible I have read for academic interest. I read the Bible for the same reason I read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, but that doesn't mean I believe that Vogons destroyed the Earth.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 21:18:38

You want me to give it to you straight? Why are people so quick to disprove God? I have never heard any of you disprove evolution, or humanism, or scientology, and whatever else there is that doesn't follow a god.

So what do you believe happens after you die, if heaven and hell are a state of mind? 
Seriously, what's the point of reading the Bible if you condemn organized religion, and God, and all that stuff? Why are you reading it?

You've never heard ME disproving those things personally, but there are a lot of people who do. You're trying to disprove evolution right now in fact. So what's your point exactly, Steel Drummer? you're just as quick to attempt to disprove evolution as we are to attempt to disprove god... don't pretend you're not.

As for what happens after you die... it's so funny that you bring that up. That's something that very religious people always bring up when they've been forced to back down by logical arguments... they start to panic and want to know what happens when you die. Basically, that's what religion is all about isn't it... feeling better about death. The whole concept focuses on what happens after you die. It's all so pointless and meaningless.

religious people are so scared about dying, and it makes no sense... if they truly believe in god...

Quote from: The Orator on Sat 28/04/2007 21:25:59

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 21:18:38
Seriously, what's the point of reading the Bible if you condemn organized religion, and God, and all that stuff? Why are you reading it?

Well, I can't speak for vict0r, but what I have read of the Bible I have read for academic interest. I read the Bible for the same reason I read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, but that doesn't mean I believe that Vogons destroyed the Earth.

Same here. I read the bible to understand more about it. I think it is an interresting read, but not more than Harry Potter or any other fictional book.
As for what happends after we die.. I think that we disappear. Just as that. I believe that the life we have is the only one we get. Someone would find this depressing, but I find it rather delightful as I know I have to make the best of what I have right now.

EDIT: Evolution can be prooved. Religion can't...

No, saying God doesn't exist isn't bashing. But what about calling God bullshit, silly, primative, can go to hell ;D ?

Perhaps "bashing" was the wrong word. If someone propounded the "Truth about God" to the extent that the opposite is occuring here, they'd be shot down in flames for pushing religion down peoples throats.

Hence, "religious" people must stay silent, or joke lightheartedly when someone attacks their religion, or fear the risk of being ostracised from the community a la Rharpe.

THIS TOPIC IS MOVING TOO FAST!

And BTW, Steel Drummer, I'm sure it's all very noble, what you are doing, but it's not really working here, see? I mean, you are not only attacking non-religiousness right now, but also attacking Evolution, Catholicism and Islam. You should dust your sandals and walk out (concerning religion) for now. No offense (and I really mean this), but learn a bit, and then come back (if you so wish).

Quote"If evolution exists, then why aren't monkeys changing into people nowadays?"

Humans didn't evolve from monkeys, monkeys and humans share a common ancestor millions of years ago.  Get it right.

QuoteHence, "religious" people must stay silent, or joke lightheartedly when someone attacks their religion, or fear the risk of being ostracized from the community a la Rharpe.

Or they should just post with a dose of "IMO", not sending everyone who disagrees to hell.

Also, if you're going into a debate, you should be prepared to answer people's questions instead of ignoring them, and just choosing to answer the ones you can.

No one told Rharpe to leave. He wasn't banned. I also believe he more moved on to his own website than he felt he had to leave here but I might be wrong.

I'm not going to follow SteelDrummer around and post attacking him on other threads. If he asks for art crit and I feel I have something to say to help I'm not going to dig into him for being religious also.

Someone choosing to stay silent on their beliefs because they're afraid of being judged on them isn't something only the religious have to deal with. SteelDrummer probably thinks I'm an amoral jerk who has no basis in reality and would never seek me out as a person if he ever needed anything because of my atheism. He took a stand and let everyone know what he feels, so did I. I'm sure there are other people who read what I wrote and draw the conclusion that I have no idea what I'm talking about and now regard me as an idiot who is going to hell. If this community were slightly different maybe I'd feel ostracised and I'd feel like I had to leave.

Anyway, I agree that the thread is moving too fast. I think atheists want more than anything [sometimes] to talk about religion because it's looked at as something you just don't question of someone else "Oh never question someone's faith!" so when given the chance things tend to go a bit quick.

Like I said, I'm so much more interested in people's growth away from God than what steeldrummer believes but I feel that's a pointless redirection of this thread now.

Quote from: Damien on Sat 28/04/2007 21:20:07

Quote from: Damien on Sat 28/04/2007 21:16:34

QuoteLet me ask you again, do you agree that if you were born on Islam territory, in an Islamic family, you would be 100% with that religion, as you are now with Christianity?

Take your time.

It is time.

If had been born in an Islamic territory, I'd probably be dead by now because of one of the following:
1. I'd have been chosen during childhood to suicide bomb somewhere.
2. I'd have seen the evils of Islam, spoken against them, and been killed.
3. I'd have been sent off to war at a young age, and been killed.

North America and Europe give so much freedom that we're able to argue back and forth about religion without the government threatening us. 

Quote from: Meowster on Sat 28/04/2007 21:17:54
Where are you from, steel drummer? I'm guessing some kind of middle american state...

I'm from Jamaica.

Quote from: Meowster
Long Paragraph about dying

But you never actually explained what you and your lugubriously atheistic colleagues believe about death. 

Quote from: Mr Flibble
How about this? Please read this if you're just skipping through this thread, because I think I have a good point. How many people in the world join a religion through their own initiative? I mean, if you took a group of people at birth and locked them in a cage, and told them to think about life, d you think they would be visited by god? Depending on how much you taught them about science, they might think the sun was a conscious entity. A god, if you will. How else could it move in the sky?

But people in Old Testament Bible times actually could have faith in God, and experience him personally. They didn't just listen to what they were told. Those were the people who tried to discover God, and learn about Him.   

Quote from: MrColossal
Don't tell me you're trying to prove the existance of god through Bob Marley?

And you're trying to disprove God through the notion that humans came from monkeys, and monkeys came from ooze laying around for 100 years. You know, that ooze could have been sperm from God masturbating... That could be how animals were created. No. Never mind. I'm not gonna go there.

Quote from: MrColossal
Also, you really have no idea how the science works, and that's ok. No one ever taught it to you probably. But if you have no desire to learn then you have no ability to speak on the subject so I'd stop.

"If I was educated, I'd be a damn fool."
-Bob Marley

Anyways, Meowster/Yufster, you wanted to know my point exactly?

I follow God, not evolution.
I believe that Jesus is the only man that is worthy to worship.
The majority of people in this forum hate god, religion and anything spiritual.
(although the statement 'Holy Spirit and Jesus can go to hell' is sort of an oxymoron if you don't believe in hell)


Everything I've written in this thread has been related to those three ideas.

Quote from: Damien on Sat 28/04/2007 21:44:19
Or they should just post with a dose of "IMO", not sending everyone who disagrees to hell.

Heheheheh...like someone who mentions that God is primative and silly? Where's the IMO there?
To someone who believes such, it's not IMO. It's truth. Anyhow, every post on these forums should be taken with a  dose of IMO. Automatically. Because that's all it is. Besides, if someone doesn't believe in the existence of hell, what does it matter if another person has judged them to be worthy of it?

BTW, I didn't say that Rharpe was banned. I just meant that he's been ostracised.....I mean: "He's being all Rharpey..Hahahahhahah!". If he posted anything in GenGen, it's unlikely he'd be taken seriously.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 21:50:39
If had been born in an Islamic territory, I'd probably be dead by now because of one of the following:
1. I'd have been chosen during childhood to suicide bomb somewhere.
2. I'd have seen the evils of Islam, spoken against them, and been killed.
3. I'd have been sent off to war at a young age, and been killed.

Oh, I forgot to say. I'm a dead person. So do the people in my own and other Muslim countries.


Edit: Yodaman111111, why don't you just admit you would be a Muslim with full faith if you had been born in an Islamic terriority?

QuoteIf had been born in an Islamic territory, I'd probably be dead by now because of one of the following:
1. I'd have been chosen during childhood to suicide bomb somewhere.
2. I'd have seen the evils of Islam, spoken against them, and been killed.
3. I'd have been sent off to war at a young age, and been

So you are actually saying that everyone who is Islamic is dead?

And once again you choose to ignore my post. Very annoying.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 21:50:39
(although the statement 'Holy Spirit and Jesus can go to hell' is sort of an oxymoron if you don't believe in hell)

You don't seem to understand; he was using irony. It was a joke! It's like saying 'It's times like these I thank God I'm an Atheist."

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 21:50:39
I follow God, not evolution.
I believe that Jesus is the only man that is worthy to worship.
The majority of people in this forum hate god, religion and anything spiritual.
(although the statement 'Holy Spirit and Jesus can go to hell' is sort of an oxymoron if you don't believe in hell)


Everything I've written in this thread has been related to those three ideas.

Ok.

1. Fair enough, no problem here.
2. Fari enough no problem here either.
3. What? Huh? How? When?

Ok. You can choose to listen or not (it happens to everybody):

you are showing a great ammount of ignorance. Regarding almost eveyrthing you post. your opinion is your opinion and I have absolutely no problem with it, as all my posts show. But please stop bullshiting in every post you make in this thread. What is this about islam? I have friends from islam and are fantastic people! It's not about liberal mind or whatever (which you probably don't know wtf means really), but it's more about being fair and think for yourself!

That was a yes/no question, no need for prejudices.

Quote.like someone who mentions that God is primitive and silly?

And I said that...    where?

QuoteBut you never actually explained what you and your lugubriously atheistic colleagues believe about death.

The only thing we know about death are proven facts. The body shuts down, energy passes from one form to another.

QuoteGod through the notion that humans came from monkeys, and monkeys came from ooze laying around for 100 years.

QuoteHumans didn't evolve from monkeys, monkeys and humans share a common ancestor millions of years ago.  Get it right.

QuoteI believe that Jesus is the only man that is worthy to worship.

I believe no man is worthy to be worshiped. We're all the same.

QuoteThe majority of people in this forum hate god, religion and anything spiritual.

Majority? A majority of people from these forums aren't replying in this thread.

Quotealthough the statement 'Holy Spirit and Jesus can go to hell' is sort of an oxymoron if you don't believe in hell

It was quite clear that statement (and the one about magic) were not serious, but feel free to keep holding on to it if you need to.

I was an angry anti-religious person, and thought that anyone believing in God was stupid...

It surprises me that adult and intelligent people believes in that, but I don' t think they are stupìd now... now I tend to think of them as "weak" or "naive". Not a big deal... I have a lot of intelligent friends who smoke, and that is also a show of weakness... I must have zillions of shows of weakness as well! Nobody is perfect...

Still, there is a pitty that some people need a pre-medieval tale to find an spirituality that can be found in sport, culture, art, philosophy or self-knowleadge... And a pitty that their children are blackmailed in this "action/reward" philosophy (Be good, and you' ll go to Heaven...) Believing in "God", for me, is simillar as believing in any other superstitions like Tarot, ghosts, UFOs or magicians... but my opinion about "religious" people have changed a lot.

I think that "Religion" is a tool, and as a tool, it can used propperly or not...

If believing that there is something "real" in the Gospels makes people to have spirituality, be humble, donate to the poor people, etc... so, be it! If that makes someone to kill an abortist doctor, or detonate a bomb-belt in Tel Aviv, well... I don' t think religion has much to see in those cases. There will be allways idiots, and they will allways find a cause to practise their idioticy.

So, unless they don' t try to convince me, or while they don' t use religion in a bad manner, I am ok.

Quote(and the one about magic)

Well... Yes and no :P I kinda phrased it badly. But no, I don't believe in magic. What I meant was that natural phenomenons might have been seen as such to the founders of the first kinds of religion.

Quote from: Damien on Sat 28/04/2007 22:03:42
And I said that...    where?

You misunderstand. I wasn't talking about you. I'm your friend. Or at least, I am not your enemy. You are random internet person #364.

About religious upbringings, both my parents are muslim by name (although my mother was baptised as a Roman Catholic. Maybe she is both?), but they didn't really practice. Up until I was about 15, I was pretty much the same. At the time, I got to thinking, what's the point of this facade if it's not really who I am? So I started looking at things, studying things, etc. Admittedly, I may not have been very thorough, if I found one thing wrong with some idealogy, I dismissed it. Anyhow...by the time I was 18-19, I came back to Islam, and started practicing it properly. And here I am!

I suppose it's not the story of moving away from religion that you wanted to hear, but there you have it!

Quote from: vict0r on Sat 28/04/2007 21:53:54

QuoteIf had been born in an Islamic territory, I'd probably be dead by now because of one of the following:
1. I'd have been chosen during childhood to suicide bomb somewhere.
2. I'd have seen the evils of Islam, spoken against them, and been killed.
3. I'd have been sent off to war at a young age, and been

So you are actually saying that everyone who is Islamic is dead?

And once again you choose to ignore my post. Very annoying.

I'm not saying they're all dead, I'm saying that there's a good chance I'd be dead. And people in some Islamic countries are having children more often than in North America (some Islamic countries even allow polygamy). 

Quote from: Nikolas
1. Fair enough, no problem here.
2. Fari enough no problem here either.
3. What? Huh? How? When?

Okay, maybe not spiritual, but 8/10 posts I've read (in this thread) have held views condemning organized religion and God.

Quote from: Nikolas
you are showing a great ammount of ignorance. Regarding almost eveyrthing you post. your opinion is your opinion and I have absolutely no problem with it, as all my posts show. But please stop bullshiting in every post you make in this thread. What is this about islam? I have friends from islam and are fantastic people! It's not about liberal mind or whatever (which you probably don't know wtf means really), but it's more about being fair and think for yourself!

I don't have a liberal mind because I don't agree with the postmodern view of 'all religions are equal, and all gods can save you'.

Islam: Islam may have some good aspects in it, but I'm sorry, I just don't agree with killing those who won't convert to Islam (that's what the Koran teaches, believe it or not). I don't hate Islamic people; I'd treat any of them the same as a fellow Christian- but it's their religion I hate. Same with gays. I got the forums in an uproar a while back when I said I hated gays. I don't hate them I hate their lifestyle. There's a major difference there. Islam is a religion built around violence. Constantly being fed the idea that 'If people don't comply with your beliefs and what you tell them to do, rape them, murder them, bomb them, kill them. And above all, kill the Jews.' The main reason I hate Islam is because of their contempt for Jews. Even if some may not kill a Jew personally, they still don't mind when a Jew's life is taken.  EDIT: Ah, Gord10, so that's why your games feature so much blood... ;)

Why can't we all worship one God? If we can't worship the same, true God, then why can't we at least live at peace with one another?

I guess we can't, with Islam's views on other religions.


MrColossal: I don't hate you as a person; you'd probably be a perfectly normal and decent guy if I met you; but I strongly disagree with your views on God and Christianity. Just because I attack your beliefs, doesn't mean I'm attacking you specifically. 

QuoteHumans didn't evolve from monkeys, monkeys and humans share a common ancestor millions of years ago.  Get it right.

I don't care about 'getting it right', because I'll never believe that perverted theology anyways. The reason that so many of you believe in evolution is not because of your own free thought, it's because it was taught in schools. You say that I'm not thinking on my own, just because I was born in a Christian nation, but the same can be said of you and evolution.

Quote
Well... Yes and no Tongue I kinda phrased it badly. But no, I don't believe in magic. What I meant was that natural phenomenons might have been seen as such.

Maybe if you had worded it better, you and I wouldn't have had that argument.

Quote

I don't care about 'getting it right', because I'll never believe that perverted theology anyways. The reason that so many of you believe in evolution is not because of your own free thought, it's because it was taught in schools.

Okay, don't worry about "getting it right", but building strawmen out of evolutionary theory in order to make it easier for you to dismiss doesn't win you any points.

It's not theology anyway.  It's science.  Biology, specifically.  The acceptance of evolution and a belief in God can be mutually exclusive.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 22:19:53
The reason that so many of you believe in evolution is not because of your own free thought, it's because it was taught in schools.

We were taught religion in school. But I still don't believe in God (and I even got good grades in religion!).

QuoteThen why can't we at least live at peace with one another?

Because of people like you. Just as that.

EDIT: Have you ever heard of the christian crusades, Steel Drummer?

QuoteI don't care about 'getting it right', because I'll never believe that perverted theology anyways. The reason that so many of you believe in evolution is not because of your own free thought, it's because it was taught in schools.

In primary school we were taught creationism.

I still don't buy it.

Also, Steel Drummer, it is quite rude to completely throw evolution out the window and refuse to even research it, while expecting others to be understanding of your beliefs. If you refuse to research a topic properly, perhaps you shouldn't use it in your arguments. I'm sure you wouldn't appretiate someone saying Jesus taught with a knife and iron fist and when you corrected them they responded with how you responded about evolution.

Well Vict0r, believing that Religions are the REAL cause of the "religious" wars, is an naive as believing in God...

Where you serious about it when you said that "Religious people are the cause of wars"?

S.D.:

About Islam: I am (officially) an orthodox crhistian and yet I find what you say extremely offensive!

Really, just stop talking abuot Islam. you are taking the 0.00001% of the islamic population and make judgement on that!

what if I told you that the Ko che guy (Viginia killings? 33 of them?) was a christian! How would you feel? What about the crusades and all the stuff that all religions have done over periods of time... You have been greatly misinformed and still try to pass your ill informed views as facts...

Sorry mate, but I just can't except what you say about Islam (or the teaching in scholols part but so many posts already, no need to even mention it furhter)

@Nacho: I believe that power-hungry people hiding behind religion is the reason for alot of the "religious" wars. In some degree, this is how alot of religion works nowadays too. Using fear of a god to make soldiers/crusaders/missionaries.

So, yes. To some degree i believe that "religion" is a catalysator of wars.

And don' t you think that these maquiavellic power-hungry people causing wars (who you do tell are hiding behind religion, I don' t really know...) would find another "place" to hide behind and another "cause" to make the idiotics masses to act? I honestly believe they would...

They still do.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 22:19:53
I don't care about 'getting it right', because I'll never believe that perverted theology anyways. The reason that so many of you believe in evolution is not because of your own free thought, it's because it was taught in schools. You say that I'm not thinking on my own, just because I was born in a Christian nation, but the same can be said of you and evolution.

OH MY GOD (HA HA HA irony)

This officially makes you more ignorant about evolution than I am about christianity. I've read the bible, I've read it all the way through multiple times. back when I was supposed to and later to refresh my memory so I could at least debate religion, while knowing what the bible actually says. I don't believe in God, and I don't think Jesus deserves more worship than the beer I'm currently drinking, but at least I *know* what I'm talking about. I researched and I learned and I read and I understand what the bible says.

The bible is basically a book of morals and principles, packaged with stories that place them in a certain context, so they are easier to pass through onto others who can't read and are generally easier to understand.

It's like a spelling bee, where you ask whether the word can be used in context. It's for understanding.

I do NOT hate God. If he exists, I'm sure he'd be an okay dude who I could enjoy a beer with, but as I don't *believe* in him, and therefore I would be paying for 2 which I'd both have to drink, and I'd look all sad and lonely sitting at the bar with two beers.

Regardless, you *should* research evolution. You don't have to believe it, as I don't have to believe in God, but if you want to show that you think evolution is wrong, at the very least know what you're talking about.

Because nobody's going to take you seriously on the topic of evolution, knowing that you know nothing about how it actually works.

Quote from: Nacho on Sat 28/04/2007 22:45:26
(who you do tell are hiding behind religion, I don' t really know...)

Well, this is mostly the crusades. Most modern wars is not religion-based.

Quote from: Nacho on Sat 28/04/2007 22:45:26
And don' t you think that these maquiavellic power-hungry people causing wars would find another "place" to hide behind and another "cause" to make the idiotics masses to act? I honestly believe they would...

Of course! Religion is opium for the crowds. I say religion, but anything can be used. Any cause or similar...

EDIT: Good post voh. I feel the same way!

Quote from: Nikolas on Sat 28/04/2007 22:36:08
Really, just stop talking abuot Islam. you are taking the 0.00001% of the islamic population and make judgement on that!

To be honest; I must say I agree with the SteelDrummer's thoughts about "Jihad". It is not the 0.00001% of the islamic population; but much more. I can even say I believe that people like me and Babar are the minority of the population.

Quote from: Gord10 on Sat 28/04/2007 22:52:55
To be honest; I must say I agree with the SteelDrummer's thoughts about "Jihad". It is not the 0.00001% of the islamic population; but much more. I can even say I believe that people like me and Babar are the minority of the population.

And I am glad there are people like you and Babar, because you guys show it's more of a cultural thing than purely a religion thing :)

I was taught religion in school, and science and evolution at school. I was taught both, and each class contradicted the other on a daily basis.

I realise that evolution is the closest thing to the truth: we see it in action every single day for heavens sake.

When do you see the work of god in action?

religion class, to me, always just seemed silly and a waste of my time... it's like learning and analysing the Never Ending Story or something... okay it was good to learn about other peoples religions because obviously they're very important, but since I'm from Ireland, there was always a pressure to force catholism on me, which I disliked... had it been purely about learning other peoples beliefs, it may have been okay...

It's so amazing to me, that religious people steadfastly believe in their god and yet never have an encounter with him in their lives. The only thing they know about this god is what they've been TOLD. He never contacts them, encourages them, speaks to them, gives them anything, gives them any sign he's there... and yet they defend him in the face of everything... it's ridiculous. I dunno, I really am amazed that people like that still exist.


Steel Drummer, I'm really curious... how are you so certain that god exists? How do YOU, personally, know that he exists? And if the answer is that the world is too complex to have created itself... how do you KNOW that ANOTHER god didn't create the world? How are you sure that your religion is the ONE?

If the faith is well placed, and it gives them hope, strength and guidance, then I don't see the harm. I've needed that myself in the past. (Being an open minded non-religion centric person thinga-mabob)

The thing that offends me though is the belief that other people who don't believe the same as you, will go to hell. It offends me. I think it's an absolutely disgusting thing to believe, and anybody who DOES blieve that should be utterly ashamed of themselves. Somebody could be a wonderful person, and yet suffer in "hell" for eternity because they don't WORSHIP some second-rate, cruel, pointless little god. I mean, let's pretend for a second that that is even a realistic idea. It's shit.

I went to a catholic school, and most people there believed in god. They had a nice view of religion though... God, in their eyes, created everything and watched over everyone, and if someone died, he wouldn't be judgemental and all  hell and fury and fire on them...  he'd take them to heaven and look after them for eternity. In fact, they didn't even believe there was a hell... God was just like a parent who looked after all of his children. That is a much nicer view of god in my eyes. It's a nice, warm, comfortable idea, and that concept of god is truly someone worth liking.

I remember one girl joined the school once... she was a missionary from Brazil. She told a lesbian girl in my class that she'd go to hell unless she changed her ways. I became friends with this girl (I'm a friendly person in real life, believe it or not... you might not guess it from my forum behaviour eh?). I became friends with her because nobody else would, and I felt sorry for her being left out and alone...

After a few weeks, she told me that I would go to hell unless I followed christ or whatever, and asked me to come home and have her parents teach me about him. When I said no thanks, she told me mournfully that I would burn in hell forever. She ACTUALLY SAID THAT. And expected me to be her friend.

and that's what I don't understand... she looked around her and saw that many of her lovely friends were going to burn in hell for eternity... people that she KNEW were good, and she KNEW were lovely.... and she "knew" that they were going to burn in hell forever and yet she worshipped the god that would do that to them!?!??

Anyway... people can believe in god and I really don't mind that. But this idea that people who don't go to hell or are in any way inferior to you? Haha. Bullshit.

Steel Drummer,

I know exactly how you feel right now.  You're totally surrounded here by people who don't share your views, and you're trying to defend what you believe is the absolute truth.  (Note the word "believe")

We all have different beliefs.  The difference between you and me is that I don't think you're fundamentally wrong for what you BELIEVE and that you're going to go to some place of eternal punishment and damnation.

I remember trying to "witness" to people on these boards back when I still believed in God and Jesus, and all it did was stir up debate, which is not always a bad thing.  Though I know it upset me far more than it upset anybody else, because I was a fundamentalist Christian, and fundamentalists Christians are put into position, by the very nature of their religion, where it's all or nothing.  I would encourage anybody who has an all or nothing attitude towards ANY idea, philosophy, religion, whatever, to think it through really objectively, and see if there's any holes in the logic anywhere.

I was raised to think independently about everything else EXCEPT religion.  I knew HOW to think for myself, I just never dared to apply that same logic and power of mind to my religion, because it was where I had staked everything, including "eternal life."

I was very defensive because I was afraid of finding those holes, and finding that I was wrong.  But now, I can admit that I was wrong, and I've grown as a person because of it.  (Note:  I said that I was wrong, not you.)

And I could very well be wrong now.  Because we cannot prove the existence of God, a creator, or intelligent life beyond us.  Nor can we disprove it, so I say, to each his own. 

I love how christian people have a hard time accepting that atheists lead happy lives. My absolute favourite though was being accused of 'not being fun' because I don't believe in gods.

Actually, what I'd like is for a shift in the burden of truth really. People that say they believe in a god, I want them to explain to me in detail what this entity is, and what it does. 'Cause I've never heard a definition of a God that made any sense at all.

Now I know, people say 'sense? I don't need no sense, I have faith in God!'. But if you can't even explain what your god is, what you're basically saying is 'I have faith in faith!' Good going.

Quote from: Babar on Sat 28/04/2007 21:52:23
Heheheheh...like someone who mentions that God is primative and silly? Where's the IMO there?

This is the second time you mention and I think I was the one who said "bullshit" and primitive.

I used these words telling a personal experience because they expressed with few words that it was a conflictive transition. Sorry if I offended you (too).

Anyway I hope that you agree with me that at least some of the examples I posted are "primitive" / unnacceptable / right word here / from the current point of view. And you are right Steel Drumer, religions abandon partially texts but keep still as the word of God some of them.

What worries me is this "word of god", dogma, thing you can't question because it's like it is. To most of people it only helps them to be good persons, but sometimes some get worried if the neighbor is having oral sex with her wife, or deny that humankind sharing knowledge for thousands of years can arrive to a better understanding of the world than our ancestors, or even worse, purify the brothers with fire. Why?

Having own principles that you can explain makes you being a good person easier, but as long as you are, like most, a good and reasonable person that doesn't interfere in other persons life in a disturbing manner, I don't really mind if some of your principles have as a basis a "God likes it"

Quote from: Nikolas
S.D.:

About Islam: I am (officially) an orthodox crhistian and yet I find what you say extremely offensive!

Really, just stop talking abuot Islam. you are taking the 0.00001% of the islamic population and make judgement on that!

what if I told you that the Ko che guy (Viginia killings? 33 of them?) was a christian! How would you feel? What about the crusades and all the stuff that all religions have done over periods of time... You have been greatly misinformed and still try to pass your ill informed views as facts...

Sorry mate, but I just can't except what you say about Islam (or the teaching in scholols part but so many posts already, no need to even mention it furhter)

So you're more offended by it than a Muslim? Like I said before, I don't hate Muslims, I hate their beliefs. Are you offended by that? 

I know that the so called Christians' started the Crusades. Those were started to gain power, not for any religious reasons, and Christians also killed Jews during the Crusades- on top of that, in a certain village they had pillaged, they devoured the flesh of those they had killed (even women and children), so yeah- the crusades were kind of a blow on Christianity.

Quote
Steel Drummer,

I know exactly how you feel right now.  You're totally surrounded here by people who don't share your views, and you're trying to defend what you believe is the absolute truth.  (Note the word "believe")

We all have different beliefs.  The difference between you and me is that I don't think you're fundamentally wrong for what you BELIEVE and that you're going to go to some place of eternal punishment and damnation.

I remember trying to "witness" to people on these boards back when I still believed in God and Jesus, and all it did was stir up debate, which is not always a bad thing.  Though I know it upset me far more than it upset anybody else, because I was a fundamentalist Christian, and fundamentalists Christians are put into position, by the very nature of their religion, where it's all or nothing.  I would encourage anybody who has an all or nothing attitude towards ANY idea, philosophy, religion, whatever, to think it through really objectively, and see if there's any holes in the logic anywhere.

I was raised to think independently about everything else EXCEPT religion.  I knew HOW to think for myself, I just never dared to apply that same logic and power of mind to my religion, because it was where I had staked everything, including "eternal life."

I was very defensive because I was afraid of finding those holes, and finding that I was wrong.  But now, I can admit that I was wrong, and I've grown as a person because of it.  (Note:  I said that I was wrong, not you.)

And I could very well be wrong now.  Because we cannot prove the existence of God, a creator, or intelligent life beyond us.  Nor can we disprove it, so I say, to each his own. 

So essentially you're saying I need to 'grow out of myself', and turn my back on God? Look, why doesn't everyone just forget whatever comments I said, and get back to the innuendo that this thread was known for.

They ate the flesh of women and children? What? Literally?

Having Faith about somthing when there is no evidence to prove its existance does not prove your devition to God. It mearly shows the rest of us how gullible or stupid you are.
I can understand people in poor countries with no education believing in "God" but why the hell do Educated people still insist in believeing?
I wouldnt have a problem with small community based chruches that promote family and help out the local communities, if it wasnt for the religious stuff that is.
Large international Churches are as bad as Large international Corperations. They have the same agenda, to keep us poor and sick so we look to them for help. To get rich at our expense. They want things to be like they were 500 years ago when the church basically had controll of entire countries or most of Europe.

If someone wants to believen in a particular Religion, i wont attempt to convince them otherwise. To do so would make me as bad as a Jehovas Witness or one of those other morons who go around attempting to recruit you. If they cant see the truth themselves, then i dont see much hope for them anyway.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 22:19:53
(some Islamic countries even allow polygamy).

You say that as if it's intended to be shocking. To me it's not shocking, I personally am not interested in polygamy, but if someone is in love with more than one person and they can find a working relationship between the 3 people involved (or more) than why stop them? Also, the Koran states that if more than one wive would cause trouble or unease than the man should stay with just one wife. It's not like polygamy is compulsory.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 22:19:53
Okay, maybe not spiritual, but 8/10 posts I've read (in this thread) have held views condemning organized religion and God.

And 10/10 posts of yours are coming off as condemning science and other religions.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 22:19:53
I don't have a liberal mind because I don't agree with the postmodern view of 'all religions are equal, and all gods can save you'.

That is not at all what a liberal mind is about. It's not about saying all religions will save you, a liberal mind is just about accepting people for who they are no matter what their belief system or lifestyle. Being open minded and caring is what constitutes a liberal mind.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 22:19:53Same with gays. I got the forums in an uproar a while back when I said I hated gays. I don't hate them I hate their lifestyle.

Someones lifestyle is a part of who they are, so to me, it just appears you hate them.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 22:19:53
I don't care about 'getting it right', because I'll never believe that perverted theology anyways. The reason that so many of you believe in evolution is not because of your own free thought, it's because it was taught in schools. You say that I'm not thinking on my own, just because I was born in a Christian nation, but the same can be said of you and evolution.

See my above mention of your posts condemning. I grew up a christian, learning science and religion. I was taught religion more than science, but I see more truth in science. And you come off as amazingly naive with this remark.

That's all I have to say for now really, everything else I'm thinking, others have summed up.

Meowster (and others who think that evangelizing to others is wrong): How can you say that you find it offensive to tell others about God and Jesus, yet you don't mind offending Christians with your "Fuck God" and your "go to hell, Jesus" and your "I don't need Jesus' forgiveness. He didn't die for me. Damn him" nonsense. But when I share my views with you, you act like I'm committing murder. (Most of you probably think that murdering someone isn't that bad, either, just like you think polygamy isn't bad)

I don't really care what you think about my religious views because I'm probably never going to agree with any of you on any religious/social issues. I don't think there's a single person who has posted in this thread that would agree with me about my views on heaven and hell. Or homosexuality.

Quote from: Meowster
They ate the flesh of women and children? What? Literally?

No, I was using a metaphor. ::) Of course they did!

Quote from: Cameron
You say that as if it's intended to be shocking. To me it's not shocking, I personally am not interested in polygamy, but if someone is in love with more than one person and they can find a working relationship between the 3 people involved (or more) than why stop them? Also, the Koran states that if more than one wive would cause trouble or unease than the man should stay with just one wife. It's not like polygamy is compulsory.

What's shocking to me is how loose everyone's morals are. Premarital sex is one thing, but now you people are saying polygamy is okay? I shudder to think what would happen if you entered into politics...  :P

Was that double-sarcasm?

Did they eat human meat?

PS don't paint everyone with the same brush. I didn't say polygamy is ok. Nobody else did. Just one person.

And he didn't say he was interested in it. He said if other people want to do it and they're okay with it, then what business is it of his? Can you not see the sense in what he says?

Did they cook the meat first or did they eat them raw?

For fucks sake SD, pardon the swearing but you are amazingly frustrating. You come of as so naive, and there is quite a "holier than thou" attitude coming off of you (quite appropriate phrase that). You've chosen your belief and you look down on everyone else posting in this thread as backwards fools that believe in "mumbo-jumbo." Sure we might share the same beliefs, but most of the people here have been willing to discuss what they believe, where as you just shut yourself off and leave a bad impression of what religious people are like. And you're saying my morals are loose? Because my morals allow for people that are in love to live happy lives? You astound me! Christianity is meant to show a message of love? Is this only a conditional message?

EDIT: And the crusades arent the only holy wars. Anyone remember this little war we're having called Iraq: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article317805.ece

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sun 29/04/2007 02:09:14
Meowster (and others who think that evangelizing to others is wrong): How can you say that you find it offensive to tell others about God and Jesus, yet you don't mind offending Christians with your "Fuck God" and your "go to hell, Jesus" and your "I don't need Jesus' forgiveness. He didn't die for me. Damn him" nonsense. But when I share my views with you, you act like I'm committing murder. (Most of you probably think that murdering someone isn't that bad, either, just like you think polygamy isn't bad)

You're being just as strong with your views as everyone else is with theirs. Don't be silly.

No seriously, I can't possibly figure out why on earth, once this thread got off topic, into religion, for some reason, it suddenly got very very very extremely utterly boring and no longer worth reading and it still gained 4 pages over a night! It's very unusual. well I hope you get something out of it. I won't, and most probably nor will anyone.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sun 29/04/2007 02:09:14
What's shocking to me is how loose everyone's morals are. Premarital sex is one thing, but now you people are saying polygamy is okay? I shudder to think what would happen if you entered into politics...  :P

Sorry, the way you say "premarital sex is one thing".... can you tell me what you think is morally wrong about pre-marital sex?

QuoteNo seriously, I can't possibly figure out why on earth, once this thread got off topic, into religion, for some reason, it suddenly got very very very extremely utterly boring and no longer worth reading and it still gained 4 pages over a night! It's very unusual. well I hope you get something out of it. I won't, and most probably nor will anyone.

Some people clearly are still getting somethign out of it, if you're not then you shouldn't really post just to let everybody else know you're not interested.

You're twisting what I said. People aren't going to happy together if they're living with more than one wife. The wife, especially, wouldn't be happy. A marriage is supposed to be between one man and one woman. Not three men and one woman, or one man and 6 women.

So you're saying I'm naive because I believe in Christ, and I'm not swearing my head off in every post? I don't think I'm holier than anyone else- everyone sins, everyone is made in the image of God, everyone should be treated equally. I don't care how many people I offend- I'll say it fifty times if I have to- Jesus Christ is the only way to receive eternal life! 

Quote from: Meowster
Sorry, the way you say "premarital sex is one thing".... can you tell me what you think is morally wrong about pre-marital sex?

Well, the Bible says it's wrong to do. But if you're like most people who don't follow the Bible:
It can give you STDs, it could get you pregnant- having sex is like sharing your body with someone else, and if you don't marry the person you're having sex with, then the true purpose of sex is gone. Having sex after marriage is more joyful.

And, for the last time- they ate human flesh!

... The true purpose of sex is not gone if you're not marrying that person. You're sharing yourself with a person you love, in the course of your life you can love more than one person, and sex with them will be just as special. And if you wait for sex til after marriage it wont be more joyful, it'll most likely be dissapointing and painful. There are precautions for STDs. The fact that I enjoy pre-marital sex does not mean I'm some kind of slutty guy that runs around having sex with everyone and everything. People can be happy together, have you studied any cases of polygamy? I haven't but I'm sure there will be cases where people are happy, and there will be some that aren't. But why put a stop to those that work? And you're also ruling out gay and lesbian marriages, which I think should also be allowed. You're saying love between anything other than one man and one woman is impossible, I think you're horribly wrong on this point. Swearing does not make me naive, and I apolagise for that swearing, but you frustrate me. Everyone is made in the image of god. God sins? God can be gay, lesbian, bi-sexual? If everyone is a part of his image than there must be those sides to god. God planned out everyones lives according to your religion, so he planned gays. So this "perversion" is god's will.

Having sex after marriage is not more joyful, necessarily. There's absolutely no reason to believe it would be.

As for STDs, pregnancy etc... you can still get pregnant or catch an STD from having sex with somebody AFTER marriage.

There is a difference between having pre-marital sex in loving, trusting, long-term relationships, and being slutty/sleeping around. I do believe that you should only have sex with somebody you're serious about, and that you know and trust and are in love with. That's something I've always believed, and it was contrary to the beliefs of other people my age when I was growing up. I was considered a "late starter" and even teased about the fact I didn't want to have sex with guys when I was in school or college.

The fact is, I'm still with the person I lost my virginity to. We've been together for two years now and live together, have long-term commitments such as buying cats and a house together... he's the love of my life. I don't have STDs, neither does he. He has been with other women before he was with me, he doesn't have any STDs. We use condoms, and I've never been pregnant, but we've agreed that if I ever did become pregnant than we'd keep the child. But we're still very careful nonetheless as we don't want to be parents yet (I'm way too young for that...!)

There's nothing morally wrong or loose about that, is there? I mean, I am experiencing the most beautiful and loving and caring relationship I've ever known, it means a lot to me. I don't know what is morally wrong about it. Maybe you can explain why my relationship is a sin, and a bad thing?

Also, why did they EAT the humans?

Christians, man. Should all be raped in the face repeatedly with spiky knuckledusters for the rest of eternity.

Not nice to hear someone say that, is it.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sun 29/04/2007 02:09:14
(Most of you probably think that murdering someone isn't that bad, either, just like you think polygamy isn't bad)

That is an entirely offensive assumption. So I'm going to respond in the only way possible - hey, some priests rape choir boys - that must mean all Christians think that's okay!

QuoteI don't really care what you think about my religious views because I'm probably never going to agree with any of you on any religious/social issues. I don't think there's a single person who has posted in this thread that would agree with me about my views on heaven and hell. Or homosexuality.

I'll even up the ante on that. I'm entirely okay with homosexuality, contraceptives, abortion, euthanasia and definitely with premarital sex. Does that mean you should agree with me? No!

Does that mean you get to tell me I'm a low-life because I don't agree with you? Yes!

Do I have to care and/or agree with that, or even give it a second though (therefore invalidating your calling me a low-life for thinking those aforementioned things are acceptable things)? Hell no!

You thinking and saying something is different from other people caring about what you're saying and/or thinking. Or on a less harsh level, which is what's going on in here, it means that people might not want to agree with you. Obviously we're trying to have a debate here, but you have said many things that just make me go "ARGH" and frustrate me, symbolizing through the internet that which I dislike severely about religious people. I quote.

QuoteSo if you have faith without good deeds, you're not really pleasing God as mush as you should. If you have good deeds without faith, you're not going anywhere special in the afterlife.

You're saying 'you', which translates into 'us', because obviously we're not down with faith in God.

QuoteJesus died for everyone, whether you wanted Him to or not.

I didn't want him to, and I didn't want him not to. I am indifferent to the matter, and therefore feel no need to indulge him.

QuoteOne thing that bugs me the most about people (especially on these forums) is not that they follow a different faith than I do- it's when they say that there's not a god of any kind, and they reject any sort of faith- bashing it constantly.

I find it awkward that it angers you. We are staunch disbelievers (well, most of us, seemingly) and yet we aren't getting angry at you for saying evolution doesn't exist, or that God most definitely exists and that we owe Jesus because he did something we didn't ask for. We're interested in debating, but you then start with, and I quote.

QuoteThat is incredibly true. It only proves that there is a god, because those who preach Him get bashed, but those who reject Him don't.

Nazis get bashed, so Hitler was right?

QuoteYes, and I'm being outnumbered by those who believe in evolution mumbo-jumbo.

You're the one with the God mumbo-jumbo, so why shouldn't we get a crack?

QuoteI have never heard any of you disprove evolution, or humanism, or scientology, and whatever else there is that doesn't follow a god.

I don't have to disprove scientology because it's a crock of shit. Humanism is a philosophical means of finding right and wrong through rationalism, which is pretty much what we're doing, so why disprove something which we agree with? Same for evolution.

QuoteWhy can't we all worship one God?

Because some of us don't want to believe in any god at all.

QuoteI don't care about 'getting it right', because I'll never believe that perverted theology anyways.

Perverted? Theology? I'll just leave the perverted as it is (read what I said about your comment on lugubriously atheistic people below) and comment on theology. Evolution isn't a theology. It's a well-supported scientific theory. It has proof. It does not necessarily clash with God. If God is so all-powerful, why couldn't he have orchestrated evolution to work the way it did? Maybe the bible's story of creation was symbolical. Who knows, nobody was there when God created it - 'we' came after.

QuoteBut you never actually explained what you and your lugubriously atheistic colleagues believe about death.

Lugubriously atheistic? Tone down the judgment, my friend, Jesus doesn't like it when you judge people. "Do not judge", Matt. 7:1, unless I've translated that wrong (from Dutch).

QuoteThe majority of people in this forum hate god, religion and anything spiritual.

*sigh* Yes, you're entirely right. Most of us hate God. If we ever see him we'll kick him in the shin. No, wait, that's not true. If I ever see God I'll be the first to admit I was wrong, but I just don't see that happening. You hate atheists, we don't hate theists.

All you have proven is that you're a religious zealot who canNOT accept the fact that others believe differently (be it Allah, JHWH, nothing, the flying spaghetti monster or Tyr, god of Tuesdayism) yet is pissed off that others come across to him as not being accepting of his belief.

You, kind sir, are a hypocrit. I'm not saying you shouldn't believe. I'm saying that you need to believe whatever you want to believe, as it's not in any way going to encroach on my way of life. I am a proud atheist, with a good job and a good study underway, art, love, family and friends all around, and generally having a ball in this lifetime.

And if not believing in your god makes you think I'm a bad person, and if thinking many of the things I've said in this specific post are, imho, correct or at least have a point makes you think I'm a bad person?

Then by Tyr, let me be bad.

EDIT: Thank you [cameron], for raising a good point. I am also all in favour of allowing same-sex marriages.

As long as it's between consenting adult humans who are aware of the various risks involved I don't see why it's anyone's business.  It's not my kink, but hey, if they're happy.

The true purpose of sex is to pass on our genes and make lots of babies.  It also plays a large part in forming emotional bonds.  It's also fun.

Plus the scary-things of unwanted pregnancy and STDs don't go away when you sign a piece of paper.

Quote from: [Cameron] on Sun 29/04/2007 02:37:15
... The true purpose of sex is not gone if you're not marrying that person. You're sharing yourself with a person you love, in the course of your life you can love more than one person, and sex with them will be just as special. And if you wait for sex til after marriage it wont be more joyful, it'll most likely be dissapointing and painful. There are precautions for STDs. The fact that I enjoy pre-marital sex does not mean I'm some kind of slutty guy that runs around having sex with everyone and everything. People can be happy together, have you studied any cases of polygamy? I haven't but I'm sure there will be cases where people are happy, and there will be some that aren't. But why put a stop to those that work? And you're also ruling out gay and lesbian marriages, which I think should also be allowed. You're saying love between anything other than one man and one woman is impossible, I think you're horribly wrong on this point. Swearing does not make me naive, and I apolagise for that swearing, but you frustrate me. Everyone is made in the image of god. God sins? God can be gay, lesbian, bi-sexual? If everyone is a part of his image than there must be those sides to god. God planned out everyones lives according to your religion, so he planned gays. So this "perversion" is god's will.

God didn't plan those people to be the way they are. Their sexuality is by choice. They choose to have surgery to change sexes. I'm tired of hearing Christian bashing, and religion bashing, and an overall contempt for God and other gods, so why not just get back to topic, here. I already said this once before, but maybe you'll listen if I say it again. I, for one, won't participate in this thread until the topic changes, and hopefully that will keep the argument down (everyone was arguing against me, if I remember correctly). I'm not a hypocrite, and as I've said many, many, many, many times before, I don't hate the person, I hate the religion. I accept the fact that others believe differently, I'm trying to change the fact, if you catch my drift.

If Christianity is true, and Jesus really is the only way, then when I die, I'll be up in the clouds mocking you all.

One last thing: If condemning people's beliefs is wrong, then I guess that condemning Hitler is wrong?

Big up de positive vibrations, yo.

If you don't hate the people, but the religion, and since atheism technically is the lack of religion, you surely love atheists as your brothers? ;)

Thats SUCH a christian tone to be taking. Sitting up above us mocking us all. Doesn't Christianity teach you to be accepting of others? A religion is part of who someone is, so yes, you do hate them. You hate an integral part of them. Sexuality is not a choice, you don't just wake up and think "hmm... you know what? I think I'll be gay," it's just something that you are. It is a part of who you are. So, you do hate them as well.
Christianity is meant to spread a message of love, so far you've stated you hate two large portions of the world, and you also want to stop love between gays and polygamist.
A good solid day of god's work is done.

Edit: Steel, we aren't condeming. You are. You've condemned every religion, different sexualities and lifestyles.

Quote from: voh on Sun 29/04/2007 02:49:24
Then by Tyr, let me be bad.

voh, that sentence, paired with that kickass Dick van Dyke in your sig, make you my bestest friend.  ;D


Cameron: I would like to take issue with you saying that sexuality and theology (partially) make up who you are. I'd say that my being straight and an atheist have little bearing on my personality or my character, the two most defining things of 'who I am.' For instance, if I were gay, I think Independence Day and Jurassic Park would still be my favorite movies, and I'd still love listening to George Thorogood. If I were gay, I doubt I'd suddenly become a stoner or a sk8er boi or a Hollister-wearing prep. And I think being an atheist takes the entire 'religion' chunk of 'who you are' and leaves it empty, as opposed to being different.

Certainly, these things are interesting statistical elements, and I suppose technically sort of make you who you are, but they are hardly defining.

The Bible says that the gay lifestyle is wrong. Even if you don't follow the Bible, it doesn't seem natural- I mean, two men sleeping together?

Quote from: Helm on Sun 29/04/2007 00:49:32
I love how christian people have a hard time accepting that atheists lead happy lives. My absolute favourite though was being accused of 'not being fun' because I don't believe in gods.

Heh. Not easy to admit that there could be people in the outside world who are actually much happier than you, when you know they don't need to carry the burden which has been inflicted to you (or you inflicted yourself), a burden made of guilt, fears, misplaced feeling of responsibility, imposed rituals, forced abstinence, frustrations, masochism (heroism...),  a burden you want to believe is absolutely essential for your future happiness in this world (and for everyone else too)

It is more reassuring and resting for the mind to see those people as poor beings trying so hard to seem happy when they obviously are not, looking for happiness in all the wrong and easy ways (of pleasures essentially)... And to think your burden simply is a test which will prove your loyalty to God.

I mean, look at Job.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sun 29/04/2007 02:54:10
God didn't plan those people to be the way they are. [...] Even if you don't follow the Bible, it doesn't seem natural- I mean, two men sleeping together?

Yeah, he had certainly not envisaged it. What a surprise it must have been for him.

QuoteIf Christianity is true, and Jesus really is the only way, then when I die, I'll be up in the clouds mocking you all.
Big up de positive vibrations, yo.

Certainly Jesus would approve and mock us all, while standing at your side.



edit : just wanted to point out the story Meowster used to illustrate one of her previous post in this topic, here (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=30976.msg398269#msg398269), which illustrate what we could call "the job syndrom". Depressing story, as she said.

Orator: I wasnt stating they would change you entirely, I just mean that they are a part of you. It's like saying blonde hair is wrong and you hate it. That hair color doesn't define the person, but you still hate a part of who they are.
Steel Drummer: It' doesn't seem unnatural. If people are in love, who cares what sex they are. I'm bi-sexual, so you're saying that a part of me is wrong and you hate me. It's not a choice I made. It's who I am. What's more natural than a human being?

I'm fine with the fact you're bisexual. I don't hate you.

And Cameron, blonde hair does define the person. Blondes (females) are stupid bimbos. :D

SD--While I am certainly...hmm...how shall I say...disgusted with the thought of putting my penis into...well, where it goes in that sort of scenario, I can say I'm not against any two people doing whatever they want together.

[Cameron]--Gotcha.  ;)


(But of course, everyone knows blonds are stupid.   ;))

Damn, SD beat me to the punch!

SD

I want people to have the RIGHT to do what they want within reason.
If 2 guys want to have sex, thats their decision, not "Gods", not some Church.

I believe people should be free to do what they want, as long as they arent harming other people.
I believe people should be abel to believe what they want, as long as they arent trying to force their beliefs on others.

This is the basis for law in any free society, unfortunatly some Governments cant stay out of other people business, and some laws restrict your freedom, but atleast they try and make a reson for it. Unlike the Church who expect people to live a certian way because some Non-Existant being said so, or some guy wrote about it 1800 years ago in a different society and time.

I know your going to tell me God Does exist.. to that i say PROVE it. There isnt even any real proof of a Historical Jesus, so good luck proving the existance of God.

Did someone say having sex after marriage is more joyful??

Not according to my grandfather.  There's a reason his face droops and he has massive forearms.


Bt

Quote from: Blackthorne on Sun 29/04/2007 04:50:57
Did someone say having sex after marriage is more joyful??

Not according to my grandfather.  There's a reason his face droops and he has massive forearms.

S***, I think we're relative... :=

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sun 29/04/2007 02:54:10God didn't plan those people to be the way they are. Their sexuality is by choice. They choose to have surgery to change sexes.

I'm sorry, Yodaman, this is simply wrong.  And quite uninformed.  Gay people didn't just wake up one day in their teens and think, "Hey, I think today, I'll try sticking my penis in another guy's butt."  There is a legitimate nature vs. nurture argument that can be had concerning homosexuality, but there is no gay-is-a-choice vs. gay-is-who-you-are argument.  Gay people have feelings -- real, romantic, sexual feelings -- for people of their same sex and don't have any feelings of the kind for people of the opposite sex (of, if bi-sexual, they have feelings for both sexes).  There was no choice involved for them, and no matter how many heterosexual people tell you otherwise, it's not going to change that fact.

As for gay people choosing to have surgery to change sexes... That was one of the most ridiculous statements in the context that you wrote it.  Yes, some people choose to undergo sexual changes, but they were gay (those that even are gay), not by their own choice, long before deciding to undergo the surgery.  And the vast majority of gay people would never even consider such a procedure.  You... just... wow.  Do me a favor and don't say anything that ridiculous again.

So, if god hates gay people, and will send every one of them to hell, then god is a real ass hole.  He's condemning people that he created to eternal suffering for something that they had no choice over.

Not to mention the suffering that many gay people endure for their entire lives thanks to "good" Christians like yourself making them ashamed of themselves and even hate themselves for the feelings that they have no control over.  You push them to the sidelines of society, insult them without shame, and even go so far as to fight to put laws in place that take away their right to pursue happiness, one of their "god-given" rights.  Shame on you for causing such hate and for placing the blame for doing so on your god, rather than realizing that the real hate lies inside you.

Love the sinner, hate the sin is something you say a lot, Yoda.  But your words and actions are not words and actions that I could believe anyone would say towards someone that they love.  The fact is, you hate the sinner too, and just saying otherwise can't hide that fact.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sun 29/04/2007 03:11:05
The Bible says that the gay lifestyle is wrong. Even if you don't follow the Bible, it doesn't seem natural- I mean, two men sleeping together?

I would challenge you to find a single argument against homosexuality that doesn't loop back to "because the bible said so."

I don't think that having sex with a really ugly or fat woman seems natural, does that mean that god hates fatty-lovers too?

What on Earth is this about marriage and stuff huh?

I already told you: I got married, so to stop having more children but the plan failed and I had one! ;D Now I'm considering a divorce or something, just to stop my wife bearing more children, but I have hunch that the problem is the.... unprotected SEX![/u]! WOW! Who said that?

For one last time yoda:

You didn't see me condemn anything you believe. I don't care about your beliefs tbh. Furthermore I have never swore against god/ christ/etc and nobody else in this thread I believe... Now the part that some people decide to believe that Jesus did not die to save them is THEIR business alone and have every right!

Honestly, just learn a few things, grow up, mature, and have a printed version of this thread to see how you feel after a few years. And this has nothing to do with age at all! I do this all the time and look back at threads I had debates about and see how stupid I've been (or right at some points and wronged etc). Try that, really!

You just don't know what to keep and what not!

* You think that god exists which is fine, and that paradise and hell exist, ok, and that sin exists and so on, ok.
* Why do you bother if someone is shagging 3 girls or 2 boys? what is your problem exactly?
* what do you care that I had sex before I married my wife? What is this problem?

The above are not issues that are danger to society. On the contrary a rape or paedofily is something that IS a danger and IS morally wrong. but the 1st part is that counts, otherwise morality cannot be defiened (and I would definately be morally condemned already).

So you may argue all you want, but a gay couple is not a danger in society, while a rapist is. This is why people distinguish between those two (for example).

But really, stand back, read the whole thread at some later point and see what you've written... And what the other members have written... also thank you for answering me all the way (although by some incredible sight, you've chosen to bypass some of my points, but either way...)

People, especially Steel Drummer, need to be able to differentiate in a religion, what is the spirituality of it and what was simply fabricated by someone in the Middle Ages to keep everyone nice and controlled.

QuoteThe Bible says that the gay lifestyle is wrong. Even if you don't follow the Bible, it doesn't seem natural- I mean, two men sleeping together?

Oh, and do you know what else is unnatural?  Using the internet, shaving, having pets, listening to music, keeping the time with a watch. 

The natural world does none of those things, yet there are plenty of examples of homosexuality in the animal kingdom. 

Anyway, I firmly stand by my belief that:

QuoteAs long as it's between consenting adult humans who are aware of the various risks involved I don't see why it's anyone's business.

Quote from: Hammerite on Sun 29/04/2007 10:06:42
People, especially Steel Drummer, need to be able to differentiate in a religion, what is the spirituality of it and what was simply fabricated by someone in the Middle Ages to keep everyone nice and controlled.

Seconded.

Really the issue with this thread right now is all of YOU guys. Not Steel Drummer. Steel Drummer is like 14, uninformed, extremely opinionated and very very easy to have his opinions argued for the drivel they are.

And what do you all do? Instead of ignoring him and his constant stream of idiocy, you put on your professor glasses and educate a child on matters of religion, sexuality, and ethics. For 7 pages. Nice going boring up the thread, everybody. I'm glad to read it.

Yeah, I was gonna jump into this debate with some hardcore heathen viewpoints as soon as someone worth debating showed up.
But it was only Steeldrummer all the way....so now I almost feel more inclined to back Steeldrummer up just for the heck of it.

The last evolution thread featured me & I was being pretty hardheaded with my anti-religion.   It was important for me at the time because it helped me flesh out my own opinion.  I'm still battling inside with the contradictions religion infused within me.  Some of you might feel the same way.

But tag teaming Steel Drummer shouldn't be encouraged.  I see that now.

I probably would have rejected atheism if I had ever been attacked by atheists.   As a matter of fact, I had no contact with any atheists (so far as I knew) until I got to college.   This helped me because the hypocrisies I grew up with solidified the discoveries I made throughout college.  This method is pretty important for anyone who grew up with religion.  "Personal deprogramming."   Think of religion as a band you used to like.   Say you used to be the biggest Dave Matthews fan... but now you've moved on.   A friend of yours asks you "hey doesn't Dave Matthews Suck!??!"   You agree with him but secretly deep down a part of you finds his horrifying voice appealing.


colossal:  praying to God in order to fly.   I once wrote a letter to Jesus and buried it outside in the snow.  The next day I was horrified to see that the letter hadn't been delivered.  The paper was soggy and the ink trails still contained my message, "dear jesus. please give me a puppy."

You're right Helm.  What is the age nowadays when it's proper to stop ignoring someone and start un-stupiding them before they do someone else harm?

I'd say the exact second their opinions show the least shred of continuity and an active mind behind them instead of being regurgitations from their church, thrown together with little thought and ment to UPSET PEOPLE.

You're just feeding a troll. You're not saving yodaman.

Quote from: Helm on Sun 29/04/2007 13:34:49
You're just feeding a troll. You're not saving yodaman.

Of course, the first applies fully in this case! It's pretty obvious and I am quite guilty of it as well. (note that it was also Babar in the discussion .

But about the 2nd. If anyone is able to enter a religion and believe so strong, and have such strong thoughts at the age of 14, he sure is ready to hear the other side as well. while the Internet or any forum is not in the same position as parents/family/school, if those 3 can influence a kid, then why can't anyone try and influence them the other way around, at any age, and especially at the age of 14, where his mind is getting, or already is, ready to rebel...

Well he'll rebel. Against us because nowdays it's cooler to be a theist on the 'net than secular.

I am all for helping someone see other points of view the exact second he says he's willing to listen. Not when they say 'I am not interested in researching something I condemn'.

Why can't this thread be about religious upbringing and not telling yodaman how stupid he's being?

In an attempt to move back on track:

My own personal religious upbringing has been fairly secular.  Both my parents were pretty adamant that they would love me no matter what religious path I took, and tried their hardest to impose no doctine on me.  Of course I was exposed to the entrenched Christianity that is part of British culture and history, through prayers in primary school to attending church services for the harvest festival due to my involvement with the Brownies when I was young.  I never really thought much about religion, or what it meant to me until I reached secondary school age, where religious education classes took a more diverse approach, I remember spending a year studying Islam and researching creation myths and the tennets of other religions.  Whilst I agree in principle with many of the morals that these religions support, the whole idea of a creator seemed fairly remote to me and through my interest in science I came to the conclusions that the belief in a god wasn't necessary to find the world fascinating and complex and wonderful to live in.  I guess you could say I'm an atheist by default, though interacting with those who hold religious beliefs and trying to understand their reasoning seems to baffle me and cement the lack of belief.

I can understand the reasoning behind why my parents (particularly my dad) wanted me to have a secular upbringing.  My great-grandparents on my dad's side were Jews that came over to England just before/after WW2.  Their son, my grandfather, converted to Christianity, married my grandmother and went on "spiritual journeys" around the world during the '60's, whilst my dad and his siblings were growing up.  They did all sorts of fun things like trying to summon out the devils from the eyes of my cousin who suffers from airborne allergies, and took in homeless people off the streets and filled their house with them.  Because of the interference of religion in my dad's childhood, separating him from his parents and creating conflict between his siblings and his parents, he was pretty adamant in not letting such things happen to his own kids.

QuoteGod didn't plan those people to be the way they are....
If Christianity is true, and Jesus really is the only way, then when I die, I'll be up in the clouds mocking you all.

If god didn't plan them, then he's not all powerful. Also, sitting up in the clouds mocking people who are burning for eternity.... not very nice. That immediately makes you a worse person than me in that you would enjoy seeing many other people suffering for the rest of existence, while you live it up in luxury. I would never, ever condone such a thing.

Anyway,

We can change this thread a bit to be about  religious upbringing because I'm certainly curious to hear about other peoples religious upbringing... particularly steel drummers at this point :D


My parents never spoke about god. They were agnostic, but just never ever put their views of religion upon me... not on purpose, just because it never occured to them. I learned about religion through school.

I always took it to be a kind of silly story that OTHER people believed in, I guess because I'd grown up without having to believe that a magician magicked up the entire planet, so when I DID learn about it and had a little bit of a mind of my own, I chose to reject it based on so, so many ridiculous things about the whole story.

I did, in primary school, get bullied for not believing in god and told I'd go to hell etc. Once, the priest (who used to visit the school every week) asked me to sit on his lap and I said no. He tried to coax me on and said, "Ah come on, don't be shy!" but I refused because he was a strange old man and it was embarrassing to sit on his lap in front of the whole class, because he always used to rub peoples faces and hair and stuff. Afterwards, the people in my class told me I'd go to hell for being disrespectful. My parents told the school that I wasn't to EVER be present in the room with that priest again and that when he visited, I should go to the school library. My teacher agreed, but every time the priest visited from then on, she'd still keep me in the room...

My parents took me out of that school and home educated me until secondary school. Incidentally, a huge number of children in my primary school were sexually abused by the local priest. where I used to live is one of the most prevalent areas of Ireland for child sexual abuse by the clergy.

In secondary school however, I guess people were a bit grown up, and it was a different part of Ireland too... so they were a lot more relaxed about their view of god. IE he's just a loving parent who sits in heaven and waits for all his children to come to him so he can party with them. They also believed in evolution, and said that they can't be sure exactly how god created the earth and when he did it, but they believe he's there. Surprising for a bunch of Catholic people, but it was the nicest concept of god I've ever known. They also all went to church of their own accord on Sundays, so it wasn't like they were only half-heartedly believing in him... it was really just what they believed a good god to be like.

FTw.

Thanks you two, I hope we hear more stories instead of trying to pick apart the feces of a child for the duration of this thread.

It's definitely true that we've already got fifty or so threads exactly like the kind of thread this was becoming.  I still hope that Yoda can read the posts directed at him with something other than immediate dismissal.  I don't think he was posting just to be a troll. [EDIT] Though responding to him will likely have just as much effect as responding to a troll.  Still, if the only harm in trying is making a thread boring...[/EDIT]

I was raised and baptized Methodist.  I asked a lot of questions when I was a kid.  I was nine when I told my parents that I just didn't understand why god would be so mean to us.  My family changed to Unitarian and later to the Unity Church.  We had a gay pastor which was pretty cool.  He was about the nicest guy I've ever met.  I still never could make the idea of god work within my personal belief system, and so as soon as I had the ability to decide for myself whether or not to go to church or not, I told my parents that I wasn't going to go any more.  I was in highschool.  Maybe 16ish...

Since then, I've been atheist.  The only time I involve myself in religious discussions is when I start to hear ignorant comments about homosexuality, which is a topic that has always pushed my buttons.  I have a lot of gay friends, and none of them has done anything to deserve the kind of hate and pain that they've all experienced at some points in their lives.

Now, I've married into a culture that has polytheistic practices, and I willingly take part in them.  I regularly pray to ancestors, fire gods, home gods, and the gods of the north, south, east, and west.  It's quite interesting to see the people here going practicing a religion that is about respect, and doesn't involve converting anyone or damning anyone to eternal pain.  And every time a jehovah's witness knocks on my door here, it's jarring to be ripped out of the zen that I've worked myself into.

The first time this happened, I was shopping and this Japanese woman came up to me and asked me in Japanese if I spoke English.  I said that I did, so she switched to English and introduced herself as a Jehovah's witness and handed me an English brochure that she "happened" to be carrying around.  I stood there open mouthed, surprised that this was happening in Japan.  She noticed my incredulous look and said, ominously, "Yeah... We're everywhere."

if the only harm is making a thread boring:

Yes that is the only harm. Go ahead if you think it's worth it to dictate ethics and religion to an unwilling insulting 14-year-old on the internet. He needs you to be his father. I can't do anything about it.


I am interested in what you say about a religion of respect. Are you talking about some japanese religion? Most religions I know make a point out of segregating the non-believers from the believers and treating the former with disdain... to say the least. What's the religion's specifics?

Quote from: Helm on Sun 29/04/2007 14:02:09
Thanks you two, I hope we hear more stories instead of trying to pick apart the feces of a child for the duration of this thread.

Well put!


There are times when I resent the way I was raised in a church and with the teachings that we're right, they're wrong.  But I think it has ultimately done me some good in teaching me to think for myself and take control.

I can't help but feel that my atheism has drawn lines in the sand between me and everybody I know.  (Except for a few who think like I do.)  Nobody really shuns me, but I know that they view me differently now, as not one of them, and as somebody who is in desperate need of saving.  

And what must they think of my dreams to move to California and be a film score composer!  Such worldy evils!

All in all, I'm in kind of a scary place where I'm going to be own my own sooner than later, and I'm leaving behind everything I was taught that was for my own safety and happiness, as in being told that if I'm ever scared or confused I should just talk to Jesus and he'll guide me through whatever is going on.  Now I actually have to work things out logically in my head instead of breathing prayers.  It's all good, though.   :)

Quote from: Vince Twelve
I would challenge you to find a single argument against homosexuality that doesn't loop back to "because the bible said so."

It's a sick, perverted lifestyle where two men stick stuff up each other's asses and get STDs. That's the main reason why AIDS is spreading (and because of premarital sex/multiple partners).   

In the Bible, the two cities of Sodom and Gomorrah practiced sexually perverted acts like these, and they were burned down by God because the people wouldn't repent. A lot of countries have now legalized gay marriage. Don't you think something like that could happen again?

You're probably dismissing this as "Steel Drummer's bigoted religious point of view", or else getting offended I'd say such a thing.

Well, I have a modern day example of an incident like this.

All of you probably remember Hurricane Katrina. A week before the hurricane hit New Orleans, the city was planning a 'gay pride week', sort of tourist attraction event. Then the hurricane struck. Well, you know the rest of the story.


I don't see why all of you are so adamant on arguing with me. You've heard my views, you've dismissed them, you've seen that I won't change my views, and now you're supposed to let it go and get on with your lives, and off of this subject. I must say I agree with Helm to some degree (not the 14 year old part). You people should just stop trying to defend your atheism/post-modernism/liberalism, I'll stop trying to defend God/Jesus, and we'll let God and "ism's" battle it out on their own, okay? What makes you think someone is 14 if they criticize homosexuality and atheism? 

Quote from: Helm
Why can't this thread be about religious upbringing and not telling yodaman how stupid he's being?

Exactly.                                     

Quote from: Helm

I am all for helping someone see other points of view the exact second he says he's willing to listen. Not when they say 'I am not interested in researching something I condemn'. 

I see yours and everyone else's point of view. The question is, why don't you see mine? As soon as I state my opinion, you (not you specifically, just in general) say 'Fuck that', or 'Fuck God', or 'Go to hell, Christ', or 'You're just a bigoted asshole'. I haven't said anything like that about Allah, or Buddha, or whoever. I would, however say it about the various 'isms', because they don't even believe in any sort of deity. I'd be quicker to criticize a atheist than a Muslim, or a Hindu.

The best way to get this to move on, Steel Drummer, is to take the advice that was given to your several pages back to stop posting in this thread regarding others' arguments until you've done the research and grown a little bit.   

And 'grown' for you, means learning to stop getting help from God and becoming an atheist- which is how you've grown.

Well, that's how I've grown, but not how you have to grow.  Mainly, I'm just saying that you need to learn to learn a little more about the other side before you jump into debates on the internet.

So, anyway, on with the upbringing stories.

(Which means we shouldn't discuss our religious differences here anymore.  I don't need/want a god, bible and savior.  I'm happy with my life as a whole.  I respect your beliefs and rights to have them, and I'm sorry if I ever sounded like I was condeming your beliefs.)

Fair enough. I just don't know how many people will actually change topics.

Quote from: Raggit on Sun 29/04/2007 16:16:48
So, anyway, on with the upbringing stories.

I don't know for certain but I think my parents were a bit divided on how much religion to instill upon my brothers and me.  My mother was raised in a Baptist household where church was a big part of their lives. My father never talked about religion much at all.  I think he merely complied with my mother's ways in order to keep the peace.  But his indifference towards organized religion set a precedent for us.  We stopped going to church not because we stopped believing but because we would rather stay home Sunday morning and watch the Adam West Batman show.   After years of coercing us to get ready for church my mother finally threw in the towel.  We continued to say grace with dinner but not much else.  Each of us continued to dabble in prayer and attending youth groups organized by our church but independently we were each moving towards athiesm.  We never flaunted our athiesm to our mother out of respect.  I'm not sure she knows even now that we're all athiests.

Although I've rejected the bible as being the word of God, I do believe it contains some wise proverbs and interesting parables.   Exodus is a great story regardless of whether you take it as fiction or non-fiction.  Jesus is quite a noble character and speaks pearls of wisdom. 

As an adult, I simply don't require religion to get through life.  I've sometimes asked myself "What if I'm wrong?".   I hate being wrong.  Even if God welcomed me into Heaven with open arms, I'd still be upset with myself for getting it wrong my whole life. 

My mother was raised with the catholic way of believing, and my father was raised in a Dutch Reformed belief. One thing you need to know about is pillarization. It's a phenomenon in the Netherlands and Belgium, where catholics would have their catholic schools, papers, television stations, sporting clubs, dance schools, ice cream salons, etc. The protestants had their own of those, and then there were smaller clubs which grouped together, amongst which were the socialists, the non-believers, etc (sometimes seen as two seperate pillars). So Dutch and Belgian society was segregated (in a vertical sense, so no "we're better than you so we get all the snazzy thing", but while everybody had the same opportunities, you did NOT mix) based on religion. This system broke down in the 60's, and suddenly protestant children would go to catholic dance schools, catholics read protestant papers, and generally the lockdown on belief was released.

Protestants marrying Catholics was a social no-no. Any religious person marrying a non-religious person was a no-no.

My parents grew up in all of that, and decided early on that the segregated lifestyle they'd been born into was not for them, and they denounced their beliefs. They raised me in a secular sense, but through school I was infused with religion. I wouldn't call myself a Christian, not even one that lost faith, but I am a well-educated atheist, raised as such. My grandparents were fervent catholics, but they understood that things had changed and the reaction to the pillars was to break them down and just treat everybody truly equal. That's one of the reasons the Netherlands is such a historically tolerant place. Even the pillars couldn't stop the Dutch from kicking it over and saying "bah to that!" :p

Like I said before, I've spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out what it was that made people want to believe in a god, and I've read the bible a couple of times. Sadly, a long while back, while I was reading it again, my bag was stolen, so I currently only have a tiny (hardly readable) Dutch travel bible, heh.

I'm understanding of the fact that people believe, but I react harshly whenever a religious person tries to tell me I'm bad because I don't believe, or that I'm worth less in the world than them due to it. Really harshly. I don't go out of my way to tell religious people that God doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned, and that I think they might be wrong, so where do they get the right to tell me he does exist, and tell me in no uncertain ways that I am wrong?

So what I do is simple. I allow them to explain. And then I poke holes, and poke some more, until the only thing they can say is "You're an asshole" or "God works in mysterious ways", and I sit back and smile. I haven't won, but at least I've shown them that doubt is to be had. If I can get a religious person to think critically about their belief and base their support in it on their OWN view of it, rather than the peer-pressured view, I've reached my goal.

That's one thing my parents always taught me, and I'm proud to have gotten the message :)

I was raised without really bringing up the whole god issue. It wasn't until I was about eight or nine, when I read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, that I randomly quoted the Babel fish story at dinner. My mom, surprised, looked at me and said 'So you don't really believe in God, huh?' Well, I had never thought about it before. 'No,' is said. 'I suppose I don't.'

Well, years pass and I for some reason become more and more adamant about my atheism, going as far as reading the Skeptic's Annotated Bible (which I still occasionally do for good laugh), and debating with a Christian talk show host live on the air at the Minnesota State Fair.

Well, then I realized I was just being a jerk, and so I stopped arguing with people about it and started arguing against having it matter.

monkey_05_06: I ran into some Mormons while biking down Robert St yesterday, and they were actually quite polite and well-dressed, so I politely declined their offer to bring me to church one of these days, but hinted I might look up their philosophy on the internet. We shook hands, bade each other a nice day, and went our separate ways. If you are this polite in your mission to the Death Star, I am all for it!

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sun 29/04/2007 15:50:40

Quote from: Vince Twelve
I would challenge you to find a single argument against homosexuality that doesn't loop back to "because the bible said so."

It's a sick, perverted lifestyle where two men stick stuff up each other's asses and get STDs. That's the main reason why AIDS is spreading (and because of premarital sex/multiple partners).   

In the Bible, the two cities of Sodom and Gomorrah practiced sexually perverted acts like these, and they were burned down by God because the people wouldn't repent. A lot of countries have now legalized gay marriage. Don't you think something like that could happen again?

You're probably dismissing this as "Steel Drummer's bigoted religious point of view", or else getting offended I'd say such a thing.

Well, I have a modern day example of an incident like this.

All of you probably remember Hurricane Katrina. A week before the hurricane hit New Orleans, the city was planning a 'gay pride week', sort of tourist attraction event. Then the hurricane struck. Well, you know the rest of the story.


I don't see why all of you are so adamant on arguing with me. You've heard my views, you've dismissed them, you've seen that I won't change my views, and now you're supposed to let it go and get on with your lives, and off of this subject. I must say I agree with Helm to some degree (not the 14 year old part). You people should just stop trying to defend your atheism/post-modernism/liberalism, I'll stop trying to defend God/Jesus, and we'll let God and "ism's" battle it out on their own, okay? What makes you think someone is 14 if they criticize homosexuality and atheism? 

Quote from: Helm
Why can't this thread be about religious upbringing and not telling yodaman how stupid he's being?

Exactly.                                     

Quote from: Helm

I am all for helping someone see other points of view the exact second he says he's willing to listen. Not when they say 'I am not interested in researching something I condemn'. 

I see yours and everyone else's point of view. The question is, why don't you see mine? As soon as I state my opinion, you (not you specifically, just in general) say 'Fuck that', or 'Fuck God', or 'Go to hell, Christ', or 'You're just a bigoted asshole'. I haven't said anything like that about Allah, or Buddha, or whoever. I would, however say it about the various 'isms', because they don't even believe in any sort of deity. I'd be quicker to criticize a atheist than a Muslim, or a Hindu.

So you're immune to STDs if you're married and heterosexual?

And how can you say that homosexuality caused Hurricane Katrina? if you're going to say that God caused the hurricane because of a gay pride festival, then maybe an alternative theory is that God wanted to kill a big bunch of a black people, so I suppose you support the Ku Klux Klan in that case, do you?

It's the teaching of religious matters, in schools, as fact that I have a problem with. Religion isn't about facts, and memorising pslams and bible passages isn't going to benefit you in any spiritual way.

Teaching religion in school is close to ritualized brain-washing. Conditioning young people to be more receptive to the "accepted" faith of their community.

All organized religions have an agenda, and all organized religion is simply a form of control.

You shouldn't need a middle-man to converse with your chosen God, nor should this middle-man have the right to demand some form of homage or propitiation in your God's name.

If a God is indeed all-seeing, all-knowing, and all-powerful, why should it need to subjugate those whose only wish is to be loved by it?

If there is only one true God, why would it allow those it has created destroy each other in the name of false Gods?

Before you accept a faith, unconditionally, shouldn't you be entitled to ask these questions?

Hammerite, when somebody plays the I agree with Fred Phelps card, that, if nothing else, should tell you that this is a person you cannot argue with.

Quote from: Meowster on Sun 29/04/2007 13:55:29
In secondary school however, I guess people were a bit grown up, and it was a different part of Ireland too... so they were a lot more relaxed about their view of god. IE he's just a loving parent who sits in heaven and waits for all his children to come to him so he can party with them. They also believed in evolution, and said that they can't be sure exactly how god created the earth and when he did it, but they believe he's there. Surprising for a bunch of Catholic people, but it was the nicest concept of god I've ever known. They also all went to church of their own accord on Sundays, so it wasn't like they were only half-heartedly believing in him... it was really just what they believed a good god to be like.

FTw.

I like this view on God a lot. If I were to buckle down and decide I believed in God, this is the view I would have.

I'd like to share my religious upbringing, since I find it interesting. My mother was raised Catholic, and while she may not be Catholic any longer, she definately believes in God and has a lot of faith in God's plans for the world. She believes in karma, evolution, and doesn't let her belief in God conflict with her belief in science. My dad is more or less lacking in any real faith system at all, for the most part. If he's a spiritual person, he definately doesn't show it. Neither of them ever tried to force their beliefs on me and taught me to make my own choices on what I believed.

I have only been to church once in my entire life, when I was in elementary school and spent the night at a Catholic friend's house. It was a bizarre experience to me, because my parents never really talked about religion. I remember being completely lost during Sunday School, not knowing any of the subject matter they were discussing. The whole Jesus wafer thing was lost on me too, and I was disappointed that we only got one wafer.

My mother always talked about God, so I had a vague idea of who He was, but I never really understood the concept. It wasn't until I was in 8th grade that I learned about religion. I went to a school that was mostly mormons, and before school started, they would all go to a special class at the mormon church across the street. I was friends with a mormon kid named Andrew, who was dating my friend Paula at the time. One day after the class at the church, Andrew came right to school and broke up with Paula, because she wasn't mormon and he learned at church that morning that anyone who wasn't a mormon was going to hell, and he didn't want to date anyone who was going to hell. This exchange colored my impression on the whole religion thing. It seemed really sad to me that people let religion control their whole life like that. The more I learned about the control people let their religions have over them, the more I disliked the idea of being part of a religion.

For a few years I called myself an atheist, but I found the whole viewpoint depressing, though I was a teenager and I didn't really have a proper idea of what atheism was. I tried Buddhism for a while, because the gentle beliefs of Buddhists appealed to me, but again, I lacked the knowledge to follow it properly. This seemed to be the same for every religion I tried in my teenage years, so eventually I gave up on the whole idea of religion, preferring to make my own belief system.

Now, I would consider myself somewhat of a spiritual person, but I refuse to put a name to my spirituality. I believe that there's more to the universe than we know about, some sort of cosmic force that equates to the concept of God. I believe in karma and a necessary universal balance, which is something I gained from my mother. In our hardest times growing up, she has always said "It will work out for us." and it always has. But I also believe that you make your own destiny and that karma will only work in your favor if you make the effort.

So, that's it for my Serious Post of the Year. Now I'm going back to insulting people randomly.

Yeah I like now though I consider myself a rational, positivistic person mostly, I have a very strong inner belief that 'it'll work out for me/my family in the end'. I don't attribute this to anything than blind optimism, which I believe to be a safety switch/brain function that stops me from killing myself when I go through a bit of depression or somesuch, rather than any sort of 'spirit' or other higher entity.

I know I kinda missed the premarital sex bandwagon, but I'd like to say as long as two adults who take adequate protection and are willing to accept responsibility for their actions can have a one night stand or something like that. Of course, that could just be my raging teenage hormones talking.

Quote from: Helm on Mon 30/04/2007 02:43:48
Yeah I like now though I consider myself a rational, positivistic person mostly, I have a very strong inner belief that 'it'll work out for me/my family in the end'. I don't attribute this to anything than blind optimism, which I believe to be a safety switch/brain function that stops me from killing myself when I go through a bit of depression or somesuch, rather than any sort of 'spirit' or other higher entity.

I don't think of it as a spirit or a higher being of any type. That'd be sort of silly (no offense, God Friends!). Just a sort of... force of nature, like the wind or stars or atoms or adorable kitties or whatever. Nothing mystical about it, I'm sure there's a rational, scientific explanation behind it. It's just an explanation that we can't figure out at this point in time. Maybe someday in the future there will be a formula for God!

I don't believe in the Christian God any longer, but I still have some hope that maybe there is something more interesting to the universe's origins than something completely materialistic. And when I say more interesting, I mean specifically to me, because there are plenty of people who find the idea of the universe existing without someone having caused it to be much more interesting. In general, I find personal interaction more interesting than natural phenomena. I like science and all that jazz, yeah, but in fiction I like character driven plot. So I think that inclines me toward the idea that the universe is the result of a personal action. It's a romantic idea for me. Of course, I'm simply inclined towards this. This doesn't mean that I believe it is true. What I believe is that I really don't have a clue about how the universe got to be existing.

Quote from: Fee on Sun 29/04/2007 01:56:18
Having Faith about somthing when there is no evidence to prove its existance does not prove your devition to God. It mearly shows the rest of us how gullible or stupid you are.
I can understand people in poor countries with no education believing in "God" but why the hell do Educated people still insist in believeing?

I have to say, I'm amazed at how strongly some of you are attacking religion and the people who believe in it. I know a few people, both Christian and Muslim, who would punch you squarely in the face if you said something like that to them.

Why is it so hard to accept that some people want to believe in a higher power? I've known a couple of people who have suffered an unexpected personal tragedy, and as a result have turned to religion for some comfort. When the people close to you aren't able to help, what's the harm in believing in God to help you get through the bad times?


As for religious upbringing, I was one of those kids who was brought up by two quite strongly Christian parents, and dragged along to church every Sunday without fail. However, I had a rather short attention span and was unable to concentrate for the length of a service, so whatever message the vicar was trying to get across was lost while I was fidgeting and complaining about how uncomfortable the seats were.

Still, this continued until I was 14, my parents using the excuse that they weren't allowed to leave me at home on my own as a reason to drag me along. As a result of that I grew increasingly resentful of the church, and it turned from being a mild disinterest at the age of 10 to a passionate hate by the age of 14. Of course, thinking back the church did nothing to deserve this hatred, it was just a result of teenage rebellion against being forced to do something I didn't want to do.

I know that my folks are still disappointed that I don't believe, but at least nowadays they've come to accept it and moved on. End of rather dull story.

I personally don't care how the universe came to be, and I think that if there is a God, then he doesn't really care about us praising him overly (because if he wanted praise, you'd think that he'd make a few announcements, don't you?).
So in conclusion, i think that the unvierse was caused by something, and to all you OTT creationists:
who says God couldn't cause Big Bang and/or evolution?
and it is said that the big bang was caused by the collision of two elements. where did THEY come from?

As a practicing catholic, I suppose I might as well act upon instinct and type some words into my computer on this.

Firstly, a point on the magic comment - some people do believe in "magic" these days, and their religion is called Wicca. Nice religion too, and I agree with alot of it's principles. Of course, I am apparently not allowed to think this due to my faith. This, immediatly, is an example of how some people here have completly misunderstood how organised religions work. The general fact is that they don't. The church, no matter how big it is, will 90% of the time be your local holy man, and that is it. Nobody really gives a damn if your apparently the greatest sinners in the entire world, you showed up to support the community, and that's all that matters.

Secondly, I might as well poke some people in eye here for argueing heaven and hell...

If God is all seeing, all knowing, and most importantly all loving, it is logically impossible for there to be a hell of any kind. You can't be all loving and then send someone bad to hell for eternity. Hence, here's a fundamental pillar of my own personal opinion... hang on, damn. I just screwed up my own ideas with my own mental arguements. Damn religion!

Anyway... no, damn, gone there too.

Look, I can basically draw my line in the sand based on my very fundamental if-I-forget-this-I'll-probably-end-up-in-a-padded-cell belief --> By me existing, God must exist, purely due to the fact that sentient beings exist. Hence, I have no actual problems with anyone for or against religion, because for pete's sake it doesn't actually matter until we shuffle off this mortal coil, does it. Sentience proves that science cannot prove everything. Science cannot, for example, ever say what I am thinking of right now.

My personal problem is my very hypocritical views of religion in that for 1 hour on a sunday I am a 100% catholic, the rest of the week my mind is buzzing over with zen problems like "does anything I actually do actually matter?" etcetera. Very Jekkel and Hyde.

What else of value can I put into these collections of thoughts? Well, I could always go for the poke in the eye for my personal hate I suppose - the ear clampers. I try and put forward scientific proof to evangelists and I get a responce of dismissal of the question. That irks me.

What REALLY irks me is the fact that ear clampers discount their own right to free will, basically making them slaves to politics, especially in America. No offence Americans, but my usual problem with american politics in general is that thanks to ear clampers, we have GWB in office at this very moment. Add that onto the fact that many evangelist groups seem so blind to this that they carry on regardless, despite it being so obvious that they're free will is happily consisting of voting the one that their religion, not they themselves, have picked into office. Thank God religion is so much more dilute in this country...

Hmmm... I just realised that I can't actually remember what my point was. Considering that religious debate between religions is pointless and religious debate between theist and athiest only serves as a purpose to observe who can shout louder...

- Huw (I really hope I haven't inadvertantly offended anyone)

PS: God exists, and he is a giant blue muffin that I ate last week. Someone disprove me. ;)

Quote
I personally don't care how the universe came to be, and I think that if there is a God, then he doesn't really care about us praising him overly (because if he wanted praise, you'd think that he'd make a few announcements, don't you?).
So in conclusion, i think that the unvierse was caused by something, and to all you OTT creationists:
who says God couldn't cause Big Bang and/or evolution?
and it is said that the big bang was caused by the collision of two elements. where did THEY come from?

Well if there was a God, he wouldn't waste His time flaunting His power by showing that He exists. It's kind of like CJ. He's just... there

Would you agree that God flaunts his power numerous times in the Bible?

Those were different times. A lot of people nowadays have totally rejected God, and the world is a lot more corrupt than it was back in those days.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Mon 30/04/2007 23:19:54

Quote
I personally don't care how the universe came to be, and I think that if there is a God, then he doesn't really care about us praising him overly (because if he wanted praise, you'd think that he'd make a few announcements, don't you?).
So in conclusion, i think that the unvierse was caused by something, and to all you OTT creationists:
who says God couldn't cause Big Bang and/or evolution?
and it is said that the big bang was caused by the collision of two elements. where did THEY come from?

Well if there was a God, he wouldn't waste His time flaunting His power by showing that He exists. It's kind of like CJ. He's just... there

Well, SORT of like CJ.  CJ has a better disposition, and I really, really mean that.  I mean, God is all "worship me and be my friend," (since when do your friends want you to WORSHIP them?  Friendships should be equal.)  And then, if you don't worship him and be his "friend," then he damns you to Hell, and treats you like crap before you get there.

What part of God is just there?  His elbow?   His beard?   What is "there"?   I thought Jesus was the only physical manifestation... so god actually isn't there at all.

He's everywhere. Omniscient, omnipotent, etc.

"Dear God,

I love monotheism.   Thanks for coming along after thousands of years and setting everyone straight.  Silly Greeks and Egyptians!   Anyway....   so which one of you is reading this?  The son?   the father?  Or that kooky ghost?   Question:  does the ghost have to ask one of you other two to open his letters?  Or has he mastered that skill Patrick Swayze learned from that guy in the subway? OK, peace!"

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Tue 01/05/2007 00:07:31
Those were different times. A lot of people nowadays have totally rejected God, and the world is a lot more corrupt than it was back in those days.

More people believe in god now then they did in the day the bible was written. Christianity has spread far further due to missions and things like that. Also, there was far more barbaric killing, women were treated VERY badly in those days, there was far more condoned violence and public hangings/stonings etc... even for very mild crimes such as a poor person stealing some bread to stay alive.

In conclusion: in those days, the number of Christians were far less than today and those that did exist were cruel, violent, judgemental and oppressive of people such as the sick, the poor, foreign people and women. Much of the population of the rest of the world was even worse... look at the barbaric killings and disfiguring traditions that occured in many countries in "those days".

Therefore, I would argue that god flaunting his powers in the bible but not flaunting his powers now is completely without excuse. he created men to be curious and to question things around them, after all. And surely by your argument, if he's not showing his powers to people nowadays because of corruption (even though I've already pointed out that things aren't more corrupt now), that means he's effectively abandoned his creations. Decided we're not good enough any more, is ignoring us.

It baffles me that you stick up for your view of god so much, when it is one of a cruel, oppressive, judgemental, two-faced and cold-hearted god. You seem to be arguing that your god IS an asshole. I don't understand why you wouldn't defend him as being kind, forgiving and leniant... unless you've never really thought about what it is that you worship.

Tell me, Steel DRummer... do you believe in the old testament and the new testament as both being fact?

Quote

In conclusion: in those days, the number of Christians were far less than today and those that did exist were cruel, violent, judgemental and oppressive of people such as the sick, the poor, foreign people and women.

What Christians would those be? Name a few.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Tue 01/05/2007 14:49:45
What Christians would those be? Name a few.

There are so many examples of it. You know yourself how people were stoned to death and tortured etc. You didn't say if you believed in the old testament or the new testament, or both? Please let me know which you believe in.

I'm not saying your religion is evil as it is now, but you MUST understand that terrible things that Christianity has done for the world in the past. In fact, the very spread of Christianity can be attributed to the violent methods and scare tactics that Christians used to spread it. In the dark ages, Christians would burn people for being witches or for committing "heresy", an example of which was to say that the earth was round and revolved around the sun!

The fact is that Christians haven't always been the nice lovely people you take them to be now. 2000 years ago, the times were very different indeed. If you DO believe in the bible, you'll know that there are some biblical stories which involve fathers having sex with daughters, men being commanded to kill their sons (and obeying!)... men giving their daughters up to be raped instead of allowing a man to be buggered... and all of this condoned by god!

You're very naive indeed if you believe that Christians have always been the pinnacle of holiness and goodness. By the values you live by today, then it's safe to say that the Christians of today are far superior and have better morals than the Christians of biblical times.

Try reading this for a start:

http://mwillett.org/atheism/christian-civilization.htm

Quote
I'm not saying your religion is evil as it is now, but you MUST understand that terrible things that Christianity has done for the world in the past. In fact, the very spread of Christianity can be attributed to the violent methods and scare tactics that Christians used to spread it. In fact, in the dark ages, Christians would burn people for being witches or for committing "heresy", an example of which was to say that the earth was round and revolved around the sun!

I know that, and it wasn't my religion, it was those pagan Catholics.

Quote
There are so many examples of it. You know yourself how people were stoned to death and tortured etc. You didn't say if you believed in the old testament or the new testament, or both? Please let me know which you believe in.

Both.

And it wasn't Christians who were stoning people, it was Christians themselves who were being stoned. Just wanted to clarify that, as it seems you didn't do much research.

No, you're the one not doing the research. Just because there are a few examples in the bible of Christians themselves being stoned, does not mean all Christians were as good and pious and them. Read examples of how christians burned innocent people at the stake for being "witches" or believing things which have since been proven true such as that the earth is round.

Please read the link I provided.


It also shows, Christian or not, that people were arguable less "nice" back then, to put it in simple terms for you. Which nullifies your previous argument that god doesn't bother showing his existence nowadays  because people nowadays are more corrupt. I'd also like to know whether you support incest, as there are several parts in the bible where incest is condoned and I believe even encouraged by god.

I think you are speaking in place of god and I think that's an extremely sinful thing for you do be doing.

My suggestion to you, since you are such a "good christian" in your own eyes is this: read the bible. It always amazes me how many Atheists read the bible in comparison to "christians". You preach this book and live by it, and you haven't even bothered reading it. And there's no real point in denying that you haven't read it, because it's clearly evident by the way you're defending aspects of it.

It's also amazing to me that you consider homosexuality perverse, when the Bible is one of the most perverse books I have ever read in my entire life. It is disgustingly sexually perverse. If you don't believe me, SD... read it. If you choose to take those stories literally, then it is you who is perverse. Not homosexuals.


Also, Catholics are Christians. They are not pagans. Again, get your facts straight. Stop trying to separate yourself so much from the terrible acts that have been performed in the name of god.

In my understanding, the "those days" we're talking about is mostly the Old Testament, before there were Christians at all. And the Christians during the time of the New Testament by and large were actually very good to the poor and sick, and they really were the ones being oppressed. The Bible really doesn't say much about the church after that, so I can't see how God was flaunting his power while Christians were being jerks.

However, the Old Testament is full of examples where God was flaunting his power specifically because of corruption.

CORRUPTION! STOP BEHAVING LIKE I MADE YOU BEHAVE GRRR

Steel Drummer, please answer my question: do you believe everything in the old testament is fact?

Helm: Well, maybe some even bigger God was making God behave irrationally. And then maybe he smote God when God behaved irrationally. Maybe that's why he's not flaunting his power any longer.

I want to talk to the management please.

You know,

The thing is that this is an adult forum (above 16). anyone bellow that age is more than welcome, but needs to behave, or else face the consequences. M. is giving SD the consequences, and I agree with her all the way!

don't care about no trolls or anything really!

SD, is stuborn!

Same way as I would treat anyone going professional in music, or be an ammateur. I would be suportive and kind, and sujective to the ammateur, but would probably give hell to the professional... (remember manic matts music to be sold, and so on?)

So until Sd understands or shuts up, don't see any reason why the rest of the forum should stop responding really (unless grow tired of him...)

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Tue 01/05/2007 00:07:31
Those were different times. A lot of people nowadays have totally rejected God, and the world is a lot more corrupt than it was back in those days.

OK, so it's a lot more corrupt because The Old Testament's resident madman isn't causing floods, "testing faiths" and sacrificing sons?
And besides wouldn't the rejection of god call for a big biblical atrocity from Ole Godfrey?

I like my idea!

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Tue 01/05/2007 15:18:49

QuoteThere are so many examples of it. You know yourself how people were stoned to death and tortured etc. You didn't say if you believed in the old testament or the new testament, or both? Please let me know which you believe in.

Both.

So you consider all the passages that directly contradict each other as facts, too?
And do you believe that the earth is only around 6000 years old?

Just curious.

Well have you read the Old Testament, SD?

Let me show you some of the things you believe are fact:
http://mwillett.org/atheism/family.htm

There's a couple of things they've forgotten to mention in that page, such as how if a woman does not bleed the first time she has sex, she can be stoned to death by the people of the village (or perhaps cast out forever, I can't remember exactly... it was 6 or so years since I read it). Now SD, maybe you are not aware, but many women DON'T bleed the first time they have sex, for many reasons indeed. I didn't bleed the first time *I* had sex. What do you think of that?

Imagine how many innocent women were wrongly accused of and punished for pre-marital sex under gods own command!

You might want to read about Polygamy in the bible. Since you believe everything in both the old and new testament, this should prove to you that Polygamy is absolutely OK by God under certain circumstances.

http://www.quransearch.com/ntpoly.htm

Perverse, wouldn't you agree? Or do you disagree with this aspect of the bible?


I really think you should continue this argument as best you can, especially if you are very certain and very sure, and very educated, about your faith. I'm very interested to see your replies, especially as you've already said yourself that

1. You think Polygamy is perverse
2. You believe in the old and new testament
3. God himself said that Polygamy is okay under certain circumstances.



PS. look at this everyone, this is what SD claims he believes should happen to women who have been raped:

In the OT, we also see that a virgin is forced to marry her rapist: "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver.  He must marry the girl, for he has violated her.  He can never divorce her as
long as he lives.


How much of the old and new testament do you actually believe in, SD?

Quote from: Helm on Tue 01/05/2007 15:57:43
I want to talk to the management please.

What if you are the management?

Quote from: biothlebop on Tue 01/05/2007 16:38:51

Quote from: Helm on Tue 01/05/2007 15:57:43
I want to talk to the management please.

What if you are the management?

Then I guess

Religion is a creation of human nature to put a human face on the universe, You can't plead with a force of nature but you can plead with a god. The weather follows patterns but can also vary wildly, it is "capricious" and what can also do that? People. and people can try to influence other people., even ones much more powerful then them. and what are gods, really powerful beings, a fancy word for people

Do you realize that "God" spelled backwards is "Dog"?

And "Jesus" spells "Susej"?

And "Christianity" spells "Toilet Duck"?

Freaky.

Quote from: LimpingFish on Tue 01/05/2007 17:40:17


And "Christianity" spells "Toilet Duck"?

Freaky.

and just what the liminy snicket have you been smoking?

Communion wafers.

(Blasphemy! He is SO going to hell!)

Communion wafers are good! I could snack on them all day, to tell you the truth.

Actually, I've only had two in my whole life. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly.

No, they are tasty. In a bland, flavourless kind of way.

They seem to be made out of the same stuff as those little UFO shaped candies with the fizzy sherbert inside.

I'd go to church more if the communion wafers came with fizzy sherbert.

It's not some lousy candy! It's the body of Christ, you infidels!

Mmm... body of Christ

haha GarageGothic!

Wow! I can't believe it's not Jesus' body!

*munches on a wafer*

Its a symbol, made in rememberance of what christians believe be the supreme sacrafice, a diety entering human form to die for all humnity. thats a pretty special thing. wether its "REALLY" jesus's body or not is a none  issue to me.

Oh, I know it's symbolic. And out of respect for the symbolism I've refrained from taking the wafer and the wine at the service which was held when my grandmother passed away earlier this year. While some of my extended family wasn't pleased that I stayed put and didn't get up to take it, I thought it showed a lot more respect for my grandmother's chosen religion that I didn't do it, as I don't believe in the symbolism behind it.

Thankfully my parents understood, so it's all a-okay.

You know, if they supplied communion wafers with chutney dip and a coke I bet they'd get alot of people into church...

Alot of the Old Testament is contradictory and over-zealous. And probably wildly exaggerated.  And many many christians misunderstand that the Old Testament has it's vast majority consiting of metaphors...

- Huw

They only becomes the body of Christ during the act of Communion.

Prior to that point, they're just little wafers.

I wonder who makes them? Can you buy them in little bags, or does a lifetime supply arrive in a big crate?

http://www.churchpartner.com/store/customer/cat-490.html

The idea of buying communion wafers in bulk strangely appeals to me.  I've never eaten one before though.

There was this one time when a friend of mine got a paid gig playing trombone in a church service sixty miles away, and he asked me to come along for the ride so he wouldn't be bored. So I did, and I had two communion wafers because I sat through both morning services. Other than the wafers and the music and the doughnuts they gave us, it was pretty boring. And that's my brave story.

For what it's worth...

I was raised in a Methodist church, and then moved from that into a non-denominational Christian high school where I soon became one of those stupid angry Metallica fans. Looking back, I have to say that there wasn't much intellect in this high school spiritually or philosophically. Most of us, including myself, were young earth Creationists. Then, I went to university and became slightly more intellectual in my spirituality and an old earth Creationist. Then, I graduated from university and also graduated from Christianity to become a hopeful nontheist.

Quote from: Becky on Tue 01/05/2007 19:15:26
The idea of buying communion wafers in bulk strangely appeals to me.  I've never eaten one before though.

They really do melt in your mouth. A bit like Skips.

(http://www.illegaluturn.com/im/sn/Skips-PCF.jpg)

Although, not really like Skips...at all.

Gosh!


(2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

    Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house.  I will take your wives  while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor.  He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight.  You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

    Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord."  Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die.  But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." 


Summary: God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist.  And then he kills an innocent baby.

Are you sure you swear by everything in both testaments, Yodaman?

Look, there are lots and lots more:

http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm

You can look each individual story up in your bible if you like, just to be sure that website isn't lying to you. I must say, there are a few stories in there that I didn't see in my edition of the bible, but I don't have it any more... I must buy another! The above story that I posted, however, was in my edition from 6 years ago, so I can attest to that one.

Now, maybe since your God is so kind apparently, and certainly not a rapist etc etc... maybe you might consider that the people who recorded the bible and wrote it... could have done it incorrectly? Maybe they were wrong, and not really actually writing what God told them to?

I'm interested to hear your thoughts, SD.

I don't have time to do it because I'm at work, but you should probably provide more context as to what actually happened surrounding those verses, because what you've provided is all talk and no action.

EDIT: Blah, edit your post while I'm responding, why don't you? ::) ;) Maybe, nevermind.

http://www.biblegateway.com

Amazing stuff!

Check out any of the stories you like, in any version of the bible.


Kill Brats
    From there Elisha went up to Bethel.  While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him.  "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!"  The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord.  Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces.  (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

Killed by a Lion
    Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!"  But the man refused to strike the prophet.  Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me."  And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him.  (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)


Some of these bible stories are hilarious.

I can't believe you believe in this stuff, yodaman.

And like it!

You strange, violent, perverted, bloodthirsty, woman-hating monster.

Or don't you believe in it?

What's more sick, yodaman? A man having sex with another man in a loving relationship, or you and your perverse beliefs of polygamy and rape and murder?

QuoteObviously these women were repeatedly raped.  These sick bastards killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more.  How can anyone see this as anything but evil?

simple. Because a) the people they killed were infidels, therefore it's not really killing since they don't count. And b) women then knew their place and if they had a new master it didn't mean anything to them, they just fell into line, there was no rape.

Well David did get a guy killed just so he could have his wife. A common king prerogative, but what makes the old testament God kind of different is that he was higher even then kings, even a king was under the law, In almost all recorded cultures from that time, kings WERE Gods. The idea of something being higher then a kings was one of the many steps that inspired modern democracy. One thing that helped it spread though western culture was holy text that agreed with a fundamental principle of democracy, all are under the law.

In the words of Isaac Brock:

"God takes care of himself, and you of you"

Most sense-making song about this subject (IMO):
Styrofoam Boots/It's All Nice On Ice, Alright
http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=15932

While we're at it, everybody check out the Skeptics Annotated Bible, if you haven't already:  http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Just to add in a quote of Carl Sagan's I read last night:

"Why should God be so clear in the Bible and so obscure in the world?"

Thanks Carl!

That's a really nice quote, Colossal.

I'm hoping that, at this point, the reason yodaman is not longer responding is because he's exploded.

Quote from: Raggit on Tue 01/05/2007 20:04:08
While we're at it, everybody check out the Skeptics Annotated Bible, if you haven't already:  http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Though It's a well thought out and well meaning piece, do these people have any husiness doing this? Do creationists make a annotated "Origin of Specis"? or "A brief history of time" or issues of Scientific American?

To your first question: Of course they do. Skeptics have as much right to comment on the Bible as believers do.

I am not saying comment on, I mean a piece by piece highlighting. You can write a review on anything

Same answer really

"Of course they do. Skeptics have as much right to comment on the Bible as believers do."

Why should they not comment on each part of the bible? There are religious people who claim all of natural science, biology, archeology etc is wrong because a book says so, why can't we question that book?

Do you feel it is disrespectful?

Quote from: lo_res_man on Tue 01/05/2007 20:13:18

Quote from: Raggit on Tue 01/05/2007 20:04:08
While we're at it, everybody check out the Skeptics Annotated Bible, if you haven't already:  http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Though It's a well thought out and well meaning piece, do these people have any husiness doing this? Do creationists make a annotated "Origin of Specis"? or "A brief history of time" or issues of Scientific American?

Yes they do. Of course they do. It also points out that few christians actually READ the bible.

Piece by piece highlighting? Why not, when the things that are being highlighted piece-by-piece are absolutely disgusting and atrocious acts that no good god would condone? Why not highlight it piece-by-piece, if it educates SD a little bit. He clearly has no idea of the contents of the book he so hotly defends.

I'm not sure how yodaman will react to these posts, but if he has an ounce of decency in him, he'll be horrified to see the things he believes in without question include the murder of babies, the rape of women, slavery, etc. These are things that churches gloss over, because nobody wants to think that their god ordered the death of a baby. The catholic school that I went to taught that the old testament wasn't real, it was just a bunch of parables that were meant to be good stories or something like this. Who told them this was the case? Nobody, they decided for themselves that it couldn't be real because it was too unlike the image of god they wanted to believe in.

SD has believed in what he's been TOLD about god, but he's only been taught very select things about him. If he sits down to read the bible one day like A GOOD CHRISTIAN SHOULD, I'm sure he'll be horrified at what he sees. Perhaps when he sees god ordering babies to be murdered, women to be raped, children to be savaged... when he sees jesus encouraging polygamy... maybe then he'll reconsider how accurate the things god thinks about gay people are. Maybe he'll take a step back and think about what it is that he's REALLY believing in.

Another reason we should pick it apart piece-by-piece is this: the beliefs of Fundamentalist Christians, which are based on a 2000 year old story, are setting human rights back. Think of thinks like gay marriage, which is not allowed in many countries and American states for religious reasons. They're not harmless beliefs. They are beliefs which, for no other reason than a story from 2000 years ago, discriminate against members of todays society.

As far as the right of skeptics to go through the Bible in that way, it's important to remember that the text doesn't belong to anyone. We're talking about archaelogical documents here. Creationists and Christians in general don't really have any more possession of it than anyone else does.

EDIT: But you know, to be fair, some of the commentary in the SAB is a little stupid and uninformed.

Highlighting every piece of the Bible reminds me of something....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=E_EXqdJ4L7I


Each little phrase or quote in the Bible should be broken down by anyone trying to find spirituality.  How would anybody not have the right to do this?   Entire sects of Christianity were formed based on disagreements between tedious little fragments of language.

Skeptics have every right, and hope that more Chistians condemn us to hell while still preaching forgiveness.  Its what led me to the truth after all.

Quote
SD has believed in what he's been TOLD about god, but he's only been taught very select things about him. If he sits down to read the bible one day like A GOOD CHRISTIAN SHOULD, I'm sure he'll be horrified at what he sees. Perhaps when he sees god ordering babies to be murdered, women to be raped, children to be savaged... when he sees jesus encouraging polygamy... maybe then he'll reconsider how accurate the things god thinks about gay people are. Maybe he'll take a step back and think about what it is that he's REALLY believing in.

I've read the entire Bible, and nowhere have I read it condoning abortion, rape, or anything like that. You are making bold assumptions.

And you're lying, but it doesn't matter.

QuoteThough It's a well thought out and well meaning piece, do these people have any husiness doing this? Do creationists make a annotated "Origin of Specis"? or "A brief history of time" or issues of Scientific American?

http://www.conservapedia.com/

Quote
And you're lying, but it doesn't matter.

You're just saying that because you can't come up with an excuse for your 'Bible supports abortion and rape', crap.

This is reaching beyond senseless. Steel Drummer's 'argumentation' has begun to break down almost to a failure of language and communication. The next round of replies can very well be 'ugh ugh huh hu GOD!'.

Why do you do this? If you have no answer, why not be silent? They are making a very clear point by showing you passages in the bible you have in your own home, which condone murder and rape by the Old Testament god. What do you say to this? You say 'I didn't see any such passages in the Bible which I read!' What sort of argument is this?! The passages are right there! You're really infuriating. I know you're a child. I know you're regurgitating from what other people told you and you believed then because you have no critical faculties at this age. But you're TROLLING. You're disregarding, cheapening arguments and you don't have anything of worth to say for yourself but you keep replying.

I am formally asking the moderators of this board to enforce the age limit of the boards.

Quote
Why do you do this? If you have no answer, why not be silent? They are making a very clear point by showing you passages in the bible you have in your own home, which condone murder and rape by the Old Testament god. What do you say to this? You say 'I didn't see any such passages in the Bible which I read!' What sort of argument is this?! The passages are right there! You're really infuriating. I know you're a child. I know you're regurgitating from what other people told you and you believed then because you have no critical faculties at this age. But you're TROLLING. You're disregarding, cheapening arguments and you don't have anything of worth to say for yourself but you keep replying.

They didn't give passages from the Bible. I've read through the Bible many times, and I see none such things they speak of. I kindly asked if they would show me what they're talking about. You have nothing to say, because you keep repeating yourself in every post. I'm not going to listen to you, because to me, you're just some annoying online personality who may not even be real (that's probably what you think of me, too). 

Quote
I am formally asking the moderators of this board to enforce the age limit of the boards.

Why? You don't know how old I am.

I don't think the Bible  condones rape or murder. I could understand if you meant the Old Testament, which is chock full of war, rape,and anger.
But the sinners almost always get punished.
Though, I would like to read the passages you guys are talking about. Most times, translations get very misinterpreted, I think.
Ah, well. I live by faith, not religion. I think God doesn't think much of it, He knows I love Him.
Anywho, just my opinion. I'm not arguing "who's right/wrong"

The Bible, even the Old Testament doesn't condone murder, I'm absolutely sure of it. The Ten Commandments: Thou shalt not kill.

I don't know, but maybe, just maybe, that passage is telling us not to kill people? ::)

The Bible doesn't support rape or murder as options for people under any normal circumstances. Certainly God uses those things as tools, but it's explicitly stated that people aren't allowed to do those things unless given permission by him.

The god in the Bible has flooded the world, destroyed buildings and cities, turned people into salt, asked people to kill their children, blighted countries with plagues, killed people for breaking seemingly arbitrary rules, caused people to eat their children, etc etc. It's even stated that he's a "man of war". Which is fine, because he's God and he sets the rules. I'd assume that SteelDrummer accepts this, because he has stated he thinks his God destroyed New Orleans because they hosted gay pride parades. Lots of things he does are terrifying, and by the rules that we're supposed to follow, immoral. Which just means that his rules are different to the ones that his followers are prescribed.

You have to admit that the stories of the old testament read like typical ancient folklore though, right? They don't even have anything to teach a lot of the time, they're just historical tales about good stuff and bad stuff happening. God getting mad and killing people. God being pleased and helping people. It's not surprising that God is such a scary unpredictable force when every big event gets attributed to him.

Steel Drummer, would you PLEASE look up the bible passages mentioned here:
http://mwillett.org/atheism/family.htm
Then tell us either that you were talking b.s. and are really wrong or that the "bible" you've read was completely rewritten by the religious cult you belong to.

Scotch, there are examples that have been given of God actually ordering men to do his evil for him, such as killing all the men and raping their wives. There's another paragraph I linked to where God says that if there is one non-believer in a village/town, then everybody in the town must be killed including women and children, and everything burned, including livestock.

SD, there are two possible reasons as to why you haven't seen these stories in your bible


1. You haven't read your bible, and you're now lying about it. Sin!
2. Your bible has had these stories cut out. You're reading a very much edited version of the bible which is not how god originally wrote it/told it. I wonder if this pleases god!?



If you look at the online bible I linked you to, it has many different versions where you can look up those stories..


The fact that you don't even believe they're in the bible is shocking. You're denying what is in the bible! You're actually sinning horribly! You're denying that God said these things, even though they're in plain view in any true bible (that hasn't been censored). You're actually defying God. Are you scared?

It just goes to show that you really do know nothing about what you believe in at all, and if you had any idea of the contents of that book you swear by, you probably wouldn't believe any more.

I challenge you, SD, to look up each and every one of those disgusting, perverse stories in your bible. Right now. Otherwise you're denying that they're in there, and you're defying God. Which is a terrible sin...



I'm tempted to buy a bible on the way home and take photographs of the parts I'm talking about... only SD would probably say I'd photoshopped it to say those things or whatever...

Actually, I agree with Yodaman, I can't find any of these things in my bible either. (http://www.amazon.com/My-First-Bible-Pictures-handle/dp/0842346333)

Yeah, as I said, when God specifically gives you permission it's condoned. God breaks a lot of his rules for humans, so it's obvious he's above them. I don't think that means that people are permitted to kill of their own volition... "playing God" is generally seen as a bad thing. Only he's allowed to be a bastard!

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Wed 02/05/2007 02:18:33

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SD has believed in what he's been TOLD about god, but he's only been taught very select things about him. If he sits down to read the bible one day like A GOOD CHRISTIAN SHOULD, I'm sure he'll be horrified at what he sees. Perhaps when he sees god ordering babies to be murdered, women to be raped, children to be savaged... when he sees jesus encouraging polygamy... maybe then he'll reconsider how accurate the things god thinks about gay people are. Maybe he'll take a step back and think about what it is that he's REALLY believing in.

I've read the entire Bible, and nowhere have I read it condoning abortion, rape, or anything like that. You are making bold assumptions.

Hahhahaha Vince.

I'd also just like to point out that I'm not making "bold assumptions". I've read the Bible, and I'm pointing out things that are said in it. That's not making a "bold assumption".

As I said before, yodaman... I dare you to read your bible and compare it to the stories that have been posted up so far. Read the stories where God tells people to rape women and to fuck your dead brother's wife. They give the location of each piece of the bible they quote so it shouldn't take long to find them.



Scotch: Have you read everything that's been posted and quoted from the bible? Do you believe in everything that happened in the Old Testament?

You think that it's ok for god to order rapes, mass murders, polygamy, killing children, murdering innocent babies, shunning the innocent children of bastards for 10 generations, forcing women to marry their rapists, or killing women who are raped if they didn't scream loud enough ... You believe this stuff is true and that we should live by those morals?

yodaman does.

I've read the entire Bible, yes, a long time ago... I was bored. And you'd have to be... it's a rambling collection of exaggerated history and a lot of mythology. I don't think many of the things in the Old Testament actually happened in any form close to how they are recorded in the versons of the biblical texts that we have today, no...

And I don't know if I've disagreed with you on any point... I was just saying that what yodaman said about the Bible not promoting murder could be seen to be true, because the only general rule about murder in there is that you should not do it, at all. God doesn't follow this rule at all, of course, and he uses people as pawns in his by our standards twisted and sick games.

I don't necessarily think you're meant to see the OT God's actions as fair, kind, good, or moral... I'm not sure what Yodaman thinks of his god, but if I believed in him I'd see him as something to be feared.

Yodaman appears to have a bizarre mixture of acceptance that God is a mass murderer who kills anyone that puts stuff in the wrong hole or happens to be in the same city, as well as the idea that he's a moral creature that is doing good. Which is a bit scary.

Yeah, it's that that bothers me.

I've met plenty of Fundamentalist Christians who have sworn that everything in the old testament is true. So there are people who believe this stuff and still worship the god that they believe did it all.

Crazy.

If Yodaman is going to believe in the OT and the NT, and is going to base his morals on things that are written in those books, then he's going to have to accept what's REALLY in them, not just what glossed over tidbits he's been fed by his parents/church. As long as he admits that he can read all those parables and paragraphs and things, and accept that God did all of those wicked, wicked, horrible sinful things, and accept that if his brother dies he'll shag his brother's wife, etc etc... then fine. If he wants to live his life by such twisted, perverted morals then that's fine, I'll probably never meet him anyway.

But I find it interesting because he's already stated that he thinks things like Polygamy are perverted, and I assume he finds it perverted to order the rape of hundreds of women or the murder of 42 children... so I'll be very interested to see how he reacts to seeing how these perverted things are actually all in the bible, right there.

I'll be interested to see if he refuses to look them up in the bible for fear that he'll see the real god that he worships, or if he changes his mind and thinks it's okay to do those things after all, or if he perhaps takes a step back and thinks about how "good" his god really is.

And perhaps he'll reconsider how perverted Homosexuality really is. I mean, if God of the OT likes rape and polygamy and child murder and things, is god's opinion of homosexuality REALLY relevant?

You know in the Bible it states that if your child speaks back to you, you should stone them? I read that before... I'll try to find the location of it for you, Yodaman.

Furthermore, God says homosexuals should be put to death. If you believe God is good, and god is true, and you will do gods bidding... why don't you kill homosexuals, Yodaman? Why do you let them continue to plague the earth and make other people gay with their GAY DISEASE omg. Bit hypocritical of you, don't you think? Or are you a little doubtful over the morals in what god says...

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)


I don't want SD to be under the impression his god, as he believes in from the OT and the NT, is a good, kind, forgiving and loving and fair god. If he wants to believe in him as told by those books, then he is basically a devil worshipper. God is a jealous, angry, wrathful, threatening, cruel being, if anything.

yodaman. Read those parts of the bible. Let me know how you feel about them.

Being not so very knowledgeable about the Bible, I'd say the reason he doesn't do this is because:

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"

I think (according to most Christians I know), the Crime and Punishment parts of the OT are abrogated by that statement.

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As I said before, yodaman... I dare you to read your bible and compare it to the stories that have been posted up so far. Read the stories where God tells people to rape women and to fuck your dead brother's wife. They give the location of each piece of the bible they quote so it shouldn't take
long to find them.

I never saw any references except saying it was from the Old Testament. Do you know how long the Old Testament is? I'm not going to spend hours looking through it so I can find some stuff you guys made up. 

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"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

I don't want SD to be under the impression his god, as he believes in from the OT and the NT, is a good, kind, forgiving and loving and fair god. If he wants to believe in him as told by those books, then he is basically a devil worshipper. God is a jealous, angry, wrathful, threatening, cruel being, if anything.

God says that people shouldn't kill other people, so if homosexuals are supposed to be killed, I'll leave that to God, thank you very much. 

And you know what? God never mentions lesbians. He only says men; so when he says 'put to death', he's obviously talking about getting STDs from two men having anal sex. I know you may be saying "But the first documented case of AIDs was in the 80s", however it was only discovered then because homosexuality just started to become prevalent then. I imagine if two men had anal sex back in Bible times, they'd likely have gotten some kind of disease too. 

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But I find it interesting because he's already stated that he thinks things like Polygamy are perverted, and I assume he finds it perverted to order the rape of hundreds of women or the murder of 42 children... so I'll be very interested to see how he reacts to seeing how these perverted things are actually all in the bible, right there.

I'll be interested to see if he refuses to look them up in the bible for fear that he'll see the real god that he worships, or if he changes his mind and thinks it's okay to do those things after all, or if he perhaps takes a step back and thinks about how "good" his god really is.

I'm not afraid to see them, for fear about how 'good' God is. I actually want to see them, because I'm curious to see how much you've taken scripture out of context. Why don't you post some references, as I haven't seen any (and the homosexual reference didn't count; I mean references to rape and polygamy, abortion, etc).

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Steel Drummer, would you PLEASE look up the bible passages mentioned here:
http://mwillett.org/atheism/family.htm
Then tell us either that you were talking b.s. and are really wrong or that the "bible" you've read was completely rewritten by the religious cult you belong to.

I went to the site, and already; the first reference had been taken scripture out of context. Example: It says that "In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children" (Genesis 3:16); is saying that bearing children is a punishment. It's not. At first, it wouldn't have been. But when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, He told them a bunch of stuff, and: "In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children." 

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• Most of us would say that incest is against the interests of the family. Yet Lot, whom the Bible considers to be a very good man, had sex with his two daughters (Genesis 19:33-36); and there was no punishment for either Lot or the daughters. Indeed, it might well be argued that Lot must have had divine help in this, since he was able to perform sexually despite being both very old and very drunk! In defense of the girls, it must be noted that they had no mother to guide them, because some time earlier God got peeved and killed her (Genesis 19:26), and apparently also the two men who were engaged to marry the girls (Genesis 19:14).

But later on, Lot was killed by God.

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• In order to gain favor with a king, Abraham said that his wife was his sister, and offered her to the king for sex. This happened twice (Genesis 12:11 and Genesis 20:2). Isaac did a similar thing (Genesis 26:6-10). And Lot (Genesis 19:8) once offered his virgin daughters to be used by a mob at Sodom. (St. Peter called Lot a "righteous man", 2 Peter 2:8)

1. Lot was righteous in a sense- he lived in a terribly sinful city, and he was the only remotely righteous man there, I think that's was Peter meant.

2. Everybody sins and makes mistakes, like Abraham. God will still love them. Just because Abraham did something immoral to gain the king's favor, doesn't mean that God will give up His plans for Abraham. After all, God told Abraham that he would be the father of many nations, so you think that God would just kill him off?

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• The last of the plagues brought upon the Egyptians was the death of all their first-born children, because The Lord hardened the heart of Pharoah (Exodus 9:12, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10). Couldn't he have SOFTENED Pharoah's heart and spared all those innocent children? Maybe Egyptian families don't matter.

God did that to show Pharaoh His power, and to (hopefully) change Pharaoh's heart.

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• Jesus ridiculed his own mother in public: Woman, what have I to do with thee? (John 2:4) This, of course, was a direct violation of the commandment about honoring one's parents, which Jesus said he agreed with (Matt. 15:4 and several other places). On another occasion he refused to see his mother and brothers, answering their request with a wisecrack (Matt. 12:46-50). And when someone praised Mary, Jesus disagreed (Luke 11:27-8).

1. Jesus 'ridiculing' his mother: He said this because He didn't feel like turning the water into wine. He said 'My hour has not yet come', meaning "the time hasn't come for Me to reveal myself to everyone."

2. He doesn't answer with a 'wise crack' He's trying to teach a lesson by saying "Whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is my brother, sister, and mother." Does that sound like a wisecrack to you??

3.

QuoteAnd when someone praised Mary, Jesus disagreed

They were assuming a stance of worship upon Mary. They weren't simply 'complimenting' Mary. This verse actually is a major blow on the Catholic church, as someone says "Blessed is the womb that bore you", and Jesus says "No. Blessed rather are those who hear My Father's word and obey Him."

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• Jesus promised his followers great rewards if they would desert their wives and children (Matt. 19:29).

Jesus is telling them to forsake the 'earthly' sort of things.

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• Jesus says very clearly that anyone who wants to be his disciple must hate his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters (Luke 14:26).

Again, Jesus is saying to give up the earthly things to serve Him. My pastor had a sermon on this just last week. 

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• And then there is: For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household (Matt. 10:35-36).

Haha! This is taken way out of context. 

Jesus is saying that there will be division because of Him. You've seen it on these forums; there is a lot of disagreeing and division because of Jesus. 

I've already disproved a lot of those verses (which, by the way, were heavily taken out of context). I might post a few more later today, but I think that's probably enough.