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Community => Adventure Related Talk & Chat => Topic started by: Jakerpot on 27 Jan 2009, 00:49

Title: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 27 Jan 2009, 00:49
Hi guys! I will like to know, did you like more games with score? Like Ben Jordan, or games with no score?
I prefer games with no score because i dont like "collectables" kind of things.
And You?
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Matti on 27 Jan 2009, 01:13
I don't like scores either. It makes adventures look like non-adventure-games and it's unnecessary too. I don't want to know how far I've got in the game either (like a score of 87/100). But as far as I can remember I haven't ever played an adventure with a score (except one of the larry-games many many years ago I guess).
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 27 Jan 2009, 01:27
yeah, i played leisure suit larry games too.
They are very funny  :D
but the score system its too boring... I dont want to investigate everything, just play and finish the storyline!
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: GarageGothic on 27 Jan 2009, 01:31
I don't really like scores, because it always makes me feel that I missed out on something unless I score every single point there is to score. I especially dislike games where you have to perform some arbitrary action, often in almost easter-egg like fashion, to gain those last elusive points. On the other hand, I don't think it's a bad thing to give the player a suggestion that he has missed out on something and may want to replay the game. I just prefer the way it was done at the end of The Colonel's Bequest, where you were given hints to what tasks you might have skipped.

What I do enjoy however, is games with more tangible "collectables", especially if they unlock some bonus feature in the game. As long as it doesn't feel like busywork, I certainly don't mind hunting for hidden items or taking photos of all the creatures. Sometimes it can even offer gameplay variety, if you're stuck at a specific puzzle, maybe you could take a break and go hunting for some of those comic books that are hidden throughout the game world?
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 27 Jan 2009, 03:44
hum, thats ok, i agree with you, but searching for points, isn't my kind, just if have a reward. I wont re-play a game just for points, unless them unloack something or i really liked the game.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: matt on 27 Jan 2009, 03:59
i hate game where you all you have to get the points.
BUT some points like the master points in test drive are really good.
I only like points if you get them for time playing at high speeds and thing like that and then once you get to a certain amount it gives you something.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 27 Jan 2009, 04:24
Well, you are talking about POINTS, we where discussing about SCORE, but its OK, points are cooler than scores  ;D
I really like point systems, like money and the Gamescore on Xbox360  ;)
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Helme on 27 Jan 2009, 10:27
I think game scores simply feel artificial.

@Garagegothic
Sound like your thinking of 'Beyond good & evil'. This game has a cool system of collectables to unlock new areas.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: InCreator on 27 Jan 2009, 10:37
I think that few games (not adventures) have got it right. Manhunt, for example. Score lets you unlock concept art, initial level designs, etc. Why not? Of course, in Manhunt it was a bit different, and depended also on how you played.

In an adventure game, it could work if score is not awarded for every move, but for finding special things, which presumes deep exploration from player's part.

I'd like a system like this. If game is so good you want to see how it was made, all the sketches, developer commentary, etc, you WILL be motivated to look for hidden score. There could be in-game instant rewards too, like jokes and funny situations or whatever. Take Monkey Island 2 for example. After having that LONG "philosophical" discussion about tree color with hermit on Dinky Island, wouldn't it be cool to have a background sketch unlocked as reward? And maybe something cool or funny would also happen after the dialogue?

But classical scoring system leaves me unimpressed. Many times, you do not get full score at the end, which kind of takes away of joy finishing the game. What for?
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: on 27 Jan 2009, 11:32
Score is great if it is more than just a simple number, and that's why I like games like Legend of Kyrandia and Indy 4. In both games the score ties in with the game logic: Kyrandia has you playing a mischieveous jester, and you get score for doing whacky, evil things. Indy has the "IQ" score, rewarding you for "playing Indy style".
So in such a way, score is great, and as InCreator said, when a high score unlocks some extras, all the better. I'm trying to do the this in my WIP, there *is* score, and if you get lots of it a "special ending" is unlocked.

It's boring, though, just to have the old "pick up treasure, get points" routine of the old days of Zork.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 27 Jan 2009, 19:18
Yeah, when making my RPG game on Rpg Maker i added a system to give Kharma point's, like on fable, that you would gain points by doing good thinks like disarming a bomb (a.k.a. Fallout 3) or loss points by killing them all *Evil Grim that Should Have on Smile Bar*
J-
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Vince Twelve on 27 Jan 2009, 19:47
I'm using score in an different way in Resonance.  I'm not sure how popular it will be.  You can read all the details here (http://xiigames.com/2007/11/26/resonance-developers-diary-6/) with a follow-up here (http://xiigames.com/2008/01/23/vince-is-a-good-listener/).

Basically, you get points for doing things in the game.  Some of them are things that you have to do to progress the game, some of them are optional puzzles or tasks, and some of them are easter-eggy things.  There are plenty of points to get throughout the game.  However, your point counter only holds a max of 99 points, so there's no point in worrying about missing some here or there.

The points are used to rewind the game when you die.  If you die in an obvious manner, doing something you clearly shouldn't be doing, like manhandling a live power cable, it will cost a large number of points to rewind and undo your error.  If you die by failing to accomplish something that is difficult, like a timed puzzle or something, it will only cost a small number of points to rewind (allowing you to try multiple times).  If you die and don't have enough points to rewind... game over.

Of course, for people that don't like that idea, there will be two alternative game modes:

-Infinite Rewind, where you can just rewind as many times as you want, and points never play into it.
and
-No Rewind, where it's just like a regular adventure game.  No points, no second chances.  If you die, you'd better hope you saved recently.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: ALPHATT on 27 Jan 2009, 19:56
I like score in the old sierra games.
You don't have to find every single secret to play through the game but you can see how much you did find, and keep replaying till you have max score(or not =P).
Wich adds to the replayability value wich is a very low in adventure games.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Gord10 on 27 Jan 2009, 20:00
Another disadvantage of the score system is implying the game's end is near if the game shows the maximum score. For example, if you have 94 points in a game that has maximum score of 100, you start expecting the game to end soon.

I dislike the point system, because I feel myself punished for missing a little detail of the game in the end if I can't get the maximum score.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: MoodyBlues on 27 Jan 2009, 20:07
I usually don't pay much attention to scores in adventure games.  I just like the little sound that plays when you get points. :D
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 27 Jan 2009, 22:40
I liked your system Vince Twelve! I would play the Infinite mode!  :D
In Mansion Break (a game that i'm creating) there will be "checkpoints" little messages displaying an message asking if you want to save. You can remove that option from the options menu. Vince, asking about Resonance; how did you figured the short time memory (is this the name ???) ? It's genious! And you should have A LOT of work with that don't you?
Talking about SCORES again:
I don't like SIERRA style of score. Because i try not to search for them, but when i know i'm finishing the game and look to a 5 of 100 bar i really piss off  ;D
I just imagine that i'm not able to get the points but then i remember that i'm just playing and not searching for that damn points!
continue comenting!  :)
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: TheJBurger on 27 Jan 2009, 23:54
Another disadvantage of the score system is implying the game's end is near if the game shows the maximum score. For example, if you have 94 points in a game that has maximum score of 100, you start expecting the game to end soon.

Or the opposite happens. I seem to recall in Space Quest 3 towards the very end of the game I had something like 250/500 points, and by completing the last puzzles I had about an extra 200 points tacked on. It made the game's ending pop out of nowhere by surprise, which I guess was a good thing?

For score, I don't really mind it either way. Yes, it can feel like you've missed things after you've completed the game, but it can also be used as a player motivator after every puzzle. In Pleurghburg, it made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside after taking a picture of a corpse thanks to hearing the "score added!" sound.

And I really have to second GarageGothic's suggestion. I love optional puzzles in adventure games, because it helps break up the linearity while not forcing you to complete them. The extra side-quests in Reactor 09 and Duty & Beyond made the game much more fun whenever you got stuck on the main quest. And if you didn't know how to solve the puzzles--no biggy, since you could just go back to the main storyline.

Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 28 Jan 2009, 01:05
Good point, side puzzles... I think i can add it to my game  ;)
Well, 200 points for a puzzle... before i reach the puzzle i will thought i skipped too many things!
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Stupot on 28 Jan 2009, 01:21
Having scores in a game suggests the possibilty of playing the game again to try and beat your score, or get full points.  That's okay in games with the replayability factor, but to be honest, I rarely play adventure games more than once because there are so many to get through.

(I might replay a game I haven't played for ages, but that's purely for nostalia, not because I want to try and do better than last time.)
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Eggie on 28 Jan 2009, 01:29
I think Michael Land's score for Monkey Island is very effective.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 28 Jan 2009, 01:43
I just replay a adventure game, if i played 1-2-3 years ago. Just like URU: Ages Beyond Myst. Great game. VERY Challenging, but i completed it... with some help... of some sites...
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Galen on 28 Jan 2009, 15:06
I think Michael Land's score for Monkey Island is very effective.
I hope that was posted as a joke. :s
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Babar on 28 Jan 2009, 15:11
I also liked Charles Deenen on the Lord of the Rings score!
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 28 Jan 2009, 16:19
Never played that game babar  :P
And the race game points systems, as need for speed underground, where you earn points winning races and spend them unlocking things and buying them with money to put in your car.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: LimpingFish on 28 Jan 2009, 19:39
Score isn't bad.

Swank is probably better.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 28 Jan 2009, 20:15
What you mean with Swank?  ???
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Galen on 28 Jan 2009, 20:36
What you mean with Swank?  ???
A varient of the slang term "loot" meaning money.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: LimpingFish on 28 Jan 2009, 21:43
...

I'm obviously too much of a degenerate for this thread.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Domino on 28 Jan 2009, 23:11
What you mean with Swank?  ???

SCORE with Hilary Swank.  Yes, I would like.  :)
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: miguel on 28 Jan 2009, 23:37
I personally like games with a visible score or with the option to check what is the score I have achieved.
It makes things clear to me as a player. I'll explain:
   - if I get points out of conversations then I'll know that what NPC's say is actually important to solve a given puzzle;
   - if I get points out of examining a candle that sits between fiver other on a shelf at the back of a room then I'll know I'll have to carefully search for clues;
   - if I get points out of combining objects then I'll know I should try so and not just find places where I can use them;

In a way it helps me finding out what type of adventure game I'm playing.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 29 Jan 2009, 00:19
Oh, Swank  ;D
Well, i was playing Guitar Hero World Tour, and it have a rank system. I like Rank Systems because estimulate you to play to achieve a new rank, like the tittles on Guild Wars (THE Best MMORPG in the World) that are show after your name, so other players can see your achieves. The STEAM achievements (that are a jackass copy from 360) are cool too, because other players can see you achieves and can invite you for a match or inviting you for a clan. I don't know how that applies to adventure games, but these are points-like systems like scores.
J-
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: blueskirt on 29 Jan 2009, 01:55
The sole games I remember caring for the points were the Indiana Jones games, as points were mostly for alternate solutions rather than useless actions and your score was carried with you even when you died, reloaded a previous savegame or restarted the game. It really added an incentive to find all those alternate solutions to puzzles. Otherwise points don't really bother me and it doesn't spoil me how far I am in the game as generally solving the last puzzle in a game earn you 50 times more points than every other puzzles in the game, at best they make the games seem longer than they actually are.

You know what I miss now? That little sound that was played in the late Sierra games when you solved a puzzle and earned a point, man, that sound was so great to hear when you were stuck on the same puzzle for a long time.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 30 Jan 2009, 00:56
i got scared when i got my 1 point in Ben Jordan (Max sound)  ;D
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Galen on 30 Jan 2009, 07:58
I personally like games with a visible score or with the option to check what is the score I have achieved.
It makes things clear to me as a player. I'll explain:
   - if I get points out of conversations then I'll know that what NPC's say is actually important to solve a given puzzle;
   - if I get points out of examining a candle that sits between fiver other on a shelf at the back of a room then I'll know I'll have to carefully search for clues;
   - if I get points out of combining objects then I'll know I should try so and not just find places where I can use them;

In a way it helps me finding out what type of adventure game I'm playing.

You could do the zelda thing and just play a jingle.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: bspeers on 30 Jan 2009, 22:46
Score in Edge of Reality is used for many of the jokes, and also to track secret items/extra puzzles.  Plus, the only way to get anywhere near full points is to find the alternate ending.  Then, there is a sequence where you have an amount of time equal to your score to escape.  Basically, score plays an integral part to the plot, puzzles, writing and gameplay.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: miguel on 30 Jan 2009, 22:50
"You could do the zelda thing and just play a jingle."
 :(, lost in translation there. Sorry crazy.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Galen on 30 Jan 2009, 23:01
In the legend of zelda series of games when you complete a puzzle or unlock a game a small musical sound (jingle) is played.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: miguel on 30 Jan 2009, 23:10
Ok I get it, I guess it has the same effect, yeah.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 02 Feb 2009, 01:32
Ok, but BJ scared me a lot. o.o
Do you like finding secret itens, such as coins, on the rooms, and then use them to unlock extras? If yes say YES! If no say NO! I will decide if i want to put this on my game.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: rbaleksandar on 04 Feb 2009, 12:58
I don't like scores either. It makes adventures look like non-adventure-games and it's unnecessary too. I don't want to know how far I've got in the game either (like a score of 87/100). But as far as I can remember I haven't ever played an adventure with a score (except one of the larry-games many many years ago I guess).

 No Sierra? No Indy?  :o
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 05 Feb 2009, 18:37
I never played Indi too. And, well some others... on SCUMMV.
I`m remembering a very good game, its kind of old, it comed on a magazine with dink smallwood together, it was a cartoon like one, you where a bold boy with a dog, and in the begining you should give the grapes to the guard, so you could pass. You could travel along the world, and the world where divided into layers, comming from the surface to the center, you could travel to other layers any time ( i think).
Can you remember the name of that game?
And also, i LOVED Twinsey`s Odyssey. It`s one of the greatest adventure games i ever played. And it doesn`t had score  :D

No one know the name?
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 11 Feb 2009, 02:15
no one?
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Gilbert on 11 Feb 2009, 02:48
It sounds pretty much like Torin's Passage, and it has scores. (As far as I remember scores would be deducted if you use the comprehensive hint system, but you can always cheat by restoring a game after reading the hints. :=)
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 11 Feb 2009, 06:08
TORIN`S PASSAGE! This is THE game! Thank you very much! I will get a way to get this game *evil grim*
i played many years ago (not maaaany, bu many) and wanted to play it again.
J-
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: TandyLion on 17 Feb 2009, 05:36
Speaking of points. I was watching my girlfriend play Mortal Kombat earlier in the week, and she had to spent Koins (basically points) to unlock a series of bonus content. From Music, to Gallery Pictures, Characters, etc.

I was curious if anyone has thought (or put into practice) a similar application for Adventure Games. Not specifically where you have to 'spend' points, but more something where certain actions in-game unlock certain achievements from the Main Menu screen. Stuff like:

-Special cut-scenes that reveal the fate of miscellanious NPC's.
-Origin stories of your villain.
-Additional Costumes for your character.
-An separate interactive room just for your character.
-A Bible of your 'world', possibly including Character lineage, a world map, etc.

I think the benefit of this would make the games a little more cinematic, something I think is lacking in a few titles. I think it would be amazing to re-play CutScenes from a title, or even some hidden scenes that might not fit with Game play, but the player might enjoy seeing. For an example, if you beat QFG1 as a Thief, you maybe get access to the Darts Mini Game from the Main menu.

Thoughts?

(So while not on the same topic of Score/Points, I thought I'd created enough topics so far for one week, lol. )
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 17 Feb 2009, 15:51
We already discussed about that, some adventure games (old ones) have some bonus content to unlock.
Now, i want to talk about the best adventure game i have played in my whole life:

RETURN TO MYSTERIOUS ISLAND
This game is almost perfect! It`s, it`s, it`s awsome! :D it`s a fuc**** game!
If you have oportunity, play it!
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: TandyLion on 18 Feb 2009, 06:12
I know it was mentioned, lol. I want to know if the common opinion of bonus content is favorable, or needless fluff. I personally think if the story is solid enough, its a fantastic addition.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: GarageGothic on 18 Feb 2009, 12:12
I think bonus content is a great idea if delivered in a way where the player doesn't feel cheated that he missed out on some of it because he forgot to click on some obscure item. The CSI games unlock production artwork and video interviews if you complete a chapter with full points, and if I remember correctly Fahrenheit also had some kind of system where you could spend points on unlocking special features.
Most recently I played a Sherlock Holmes themed hidden-object game where you had to find a Sherlock Holmes cap during each of the 12 cases to unlock a mini-game in the main menu. But as it turned out it was just a Mastermind clone that delivered about three minutes of entertainment before I decided to uninstall the game. So keep in mind that the "value" of what you unlock has to correspond to the trouble you went through to find it.

I think the best AGS implementation of this so far was in Blackwell Unbound where you could take polarpoid photos of the main characters in the game (not really a puzzle, you just have to remember to do it) to unlock production artwork, outtakes from the voice recording sessions and a music player.
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 04 Mar 2009, 00:50
well, i don`t the have any artwork to add as a unlockable  ;D but, what kind of content may i put to unlock?
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: TandyLion on 07 Mar 2009, 07:31
Poems, or diary entries of main or secondary characters? Cheats? Not game-breaking Cheats but maybe different costumes for the character?
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 07 Mar 2009, 14:49
diferent costumes? yeah, cool, or maybe you can play as a new character! But with the same dialogues, just a new cloth (a monkey! or a bannana!).
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: TandyLion on 10 Mar 2009, 06:16
No one phrase sticks out in my mind when it comes to puzzles. Its from the Puzzle Theory article common to link lists.

"When I break out a new amateur adventure game, I expect humour but hope for animations."

And I think that's true. The adventure game world should take a tip from modern commercialism when it comes to their game play. People will be dedicated, if there is something to play for. "150 Pokemon? No Problem, gotta catch em all after all."

Who here hasn't had a collection of some insignificant possession that was truly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, but you still HAD to have it. That special limited edition comic, that mint trading card, owning every season of your favorite show. We're collectors and we enjoy the feeling, the instant gratification over what our actions yield us. Even if the reward itself isn't something tangible, we still feel satisfied. Examples are in every Genre, the Super Bad BFG in any shooter, the game breaking Magic weapon/spell in any given rpg, getting your player to level 99 (which serves really no purpose for the vast majority of games).

I feel that it the best type of rewards in a game play are something that give you that gratification, something to make the player feel "I did it, those hours of toiling paid off!". I think cut scenes, character animations, additional costumes, playable characters are all fun additions. Personally, I enjoy the New Game+ option, or even things that the player can enjoy after the game is finished. Like a world map, or a bestiary, dictionary of your 'worlds' terms, even a "History of..." section. The player could then spend the time completing the gaps as they replayed with the new settings. Completing the Unlocked sections could then unlock other Gameplay functions.

Food for thought, I hope. Anyone else care to contribute? Thoughts?

Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 11 Mar 2009, 01:14

I feel that it the best type of rewards in a game play are something that give you that gratification, something to make the player feel "I did it, those hours of toiling paid off!".
exactly like gamescore on Xbox 360, you put you own blood in the controller, and then a window pop up "achievement unloacked " Ahhhhhhhh it's more 300 points for your gamertag  ;)
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Invalid on 20 May 2009, 22:17
scores...... they can get annoying... I guess I'm neutral
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: on 20 May 2009, 23:56
A bit like 10 year old girl screen names, eh ;)
Title: Re: SCORE - you like it?
Post by: Jakerpot on 28 May 2009, 17:01
sorry sasuke, but xXx names are a bit... ok, totally childish, just like oOo or ({}09*)_(__{})_+)( before and after the name. Ok, back in the subject; I think my game won't have any achievement, maybe extras. I wont add score to it too. As i said before, i HATE score. Just in adventure games, outside the adventure world i love scores (like Guitar Hero  ;D ). I think it shouldn't say 50/1000 but just 50. It would make it a lot nicer won't it?