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Community => Adventure Related Talk & Chat => Topic started by: Dave Gilbert on Thu 08/08/2013 23:13:05

Title: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Dave Gilbert on Thu 08/08/2013 23:13:05
Hi all. Over the last few years I have received a number of emails from AGSers inquiring about us publishing their game. I am taking a break from publishing this year (our new baby has a way of sucking up a lot of our time and energy), but I have noticed a number of common issues in the games that are sent our way. These issues aren't mistakes exactly, but rather things you have to consider when you want to bring a game to a commercial standard. When I give feedback to the developers, I've found myself often giving the same bits of advice. So I thought I'd share the most common of these issues with the community. If you're thinking of going commercial, it might be of some use.

Quick disclaimer: I learned these common mistakes the hard way - by making them myself! :) You'll see examples of these mistakes littered throughout our entire catalog.

1 - Avoid DirectDraw like the plague. Always use Direct3D. DirectDraw isn't supported anymore, and the results are mega unpredictable. On a good chunk of computers (usually modern laptops), the game will freeze at startup. There are various ways of fixing the problem, but the solutions vary from computer to computer and it's impossible to troubleshoot them all. Release a commercial game that uses DirectDraw by default and be prepared for a ton of tech support emails you won't be able to answer. You can tell your players to "Switch to Direct3D" but the steps for doing that are not intuitive. And if your game is on Steam, it's REALLY a pain. So it's best to avoid it altogether. Make sure your game runs smoothly in Direct3D and release it in that mode.

2 - Avoid the 3:4 aspect ratio (320x240, 640x480, 800x600). If it's not too late, go widescreen (320x200, 640x400, etc). I've noticed a LOT of AGS games sent my way are in the 3:4 ratio. It might be a nostalgia thing, or it might be because AGS starts that way by default, but it causes many problems. On many monitors, the image will stretch across the screen and look ugly. And as with DirectDraw, the solutions vary from computer to computer (and monitor to monitor). Even if the game plays fine, your players will still think you are crazy for releasing a game in 2013 using 3:4 aspect ratio, and get annoyed that they have to play with big black bars on the side of their monitor. I know this because Resonance and the earlier Blackwell games were made this way. It's not a major deal-breaker like DirectDraw is, but it's something to consider.

3 - The oldschool Sierra interface, with different icons for walking, looking, talking and interacting. We all know it. We all love it. Sadly, nobody outside of the narrow niche of old-school Sierra players understands this interface. For everybody else, it's not intuitive at all. It's frustrating, fiddly, and very hard to tutorialize. Plus from a purely practical standpoint, it will be very difficult to port the game to other platforms that don't have a right-click button! So do try and avoid it.

4 - Avoid long intros. This is subjective, but it's an issue that I see cropping up many times (and in my earlier games). Let your players discover your world by exploring it. You don't need to tell them everything right at the beginning. The player wants to PLAY. They aren't going to process a major infodump during the first five minutes of the game. Count the pieces of information you are giving the player in the opening cutscene. If it's more than 5, EDIT IT DOWN (my personal rule - your mileage may vary). This isn't dumbing down your game. It's allowing the player to discover these things on their own. Have faith in your world and the player's desire to explore it.

5 - Are you planning an episodic series? Please reconsider. Unless your name is Telltale, the customer faith in episodic games just is not there yet. Nobody wants to get invested in a story that they don't think will be finished. And let's face it, 9 out of 10 times that is exactly what happens. If your game title ends with "chapter 1", "part 1", or (worst of all) "episode 1"; it sends the message: "this is a short game with a cliffhanger ending that will only continue if the first part sells well enough." There are definitely exceptions to this - Cognition being the most recent one - but it's already hard enough to get people to buy an indie adventure game. Why make it harder for yourself?  A stand-alone game with sequels is better, but still difficult (see: Blackwell).

Anyway, that's it! Keep in mind that this is all subjective, based off my own experience in making and selling commercial AGS games. I might change my mind about any of this stuff a year from now!
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: CaptainD on Thu 08/08/2013 23:20:56
Thanks for sharing Dave!   Good advice and food for thought - especially about the episodic game format.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Gribbler on Fri 09/08/2013 00:29:19
All noted down in my "How not to release a commercial AGS game" book. Thanks!
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Radiant on Fri 09/08/2013 00:35:28
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Thu 08/08/2013 23:13:05
3 - The oldschool Sierra interface, with different icons for walking, looking, talking and interacting. We all know it. We all love it. Sadly, nobody outside of the narrow niche of old-school Sierra players understands this interface. For everybody else, it's not intuitive at all. It's frustrating, fiddly, and very hard to tutorialize. Plus from a purely practical standpoint, it will be very difficult to port the game to other platforms that don't have a right-click button! So do try and avoid it.
This I find most interesting. So what would you recommend? Since you talk about platforms without a right mouse button, I'm guessing "left click to act, right click to look" is not the best choice either. So what would work best? Single click? Verb coin? Lucasarts verb-buttons-at-the-bottom? Something else?
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Trapezoid on Fri 09/08/2013 00:35:45
If Direct3D supported 256 color mode and didn't ignore resolution when scaling down characters, maybe I'd be okay with it.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Scavenger on Fri 09/08/2013 00:56:03
Quote from: Trapezoid on Fri 09/08/2013 00:35:45
If Direct3D supported 256 color mode and didn't ignore resolution when scaling down characters, maybe I'd be okay with it.

Direct3D is the reason why that happens? I thought I just had the settings messed up in Winsetup. It really spoils the experience of playing 320x200 games when the characters scale at a different resolution. Real unprofessional looking, and ugly to boot.

And I don't really have any choice but to use DirectDraw myself, and that's disappointing, since I love using 256 colour mode. Surely there's another way to render it?
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Dave Gilbert on Fri 09/08/2013 01:43:22
Quote from: Radiant on Fri 09/08/2013 00:35:28
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Thu 08/08/2013 23:13:05
3 - The oldschool Sierra interface, with different icons for walking, looking, talking and interacting. We all know it. We all love it. Sadly, nobody outside of the narrow niche of old-school Sierra players understands this interface. For everybody else, it's not intuitive at all. It's frustrating, fiddly, and very hard to tutorialize. Plus from a purely practical standpoint, it will be very difficult to port the game to other platforms that don't have a right-click button! So do try and avoid it.
This I find most interesting. So what would you recommend? Since you talk about platforms without a right mouse button, I'm guessing "left click to act, right click to look" is not the best choice either. So what would work best? Single click? Verb coin? Lucasarts verb-buttons-at-the-bottom? Something else?

I was mostly referring to how you can right-click to cycle through the verb icons, which negates most of the frustration many people have with them. If you can't right-click, it becomes twice as annoying. :) A verb coin with a few actions is the way to go, if you want to plan ahead for a touch-screen interface.

Quote from: Trapezoid on Fri 09/08/2013 00:35:45
If Direct3D supported 256 color mode and didn't ignore resolution when scaling down characters, maybe I'd be okay with it.

Well to be fair, if you were going to write a commercial game you wouldn't want a native 256 color game anyway. Like with DirectDraw, it can act REALLY unpredictably on modern hardware. Gemini Rue, for example, was a native 16 bit game! That's unheard of in 2013. It caused more technical issues than I can list. The same for 256 color games.

As for scaling characters, yes this can be annoying. For Primordia we had to render out a whole new set of scaled-down walking animations for the characters that needed them. A bit of a pain, but it was either that or lose over 1/3 of our audience. When you're making a commercial game, that takes priority. For freeware it doesn't matter!
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: DBoyWheeler on Fri 09/08/2013 01:53:59
Perhaps a Kyrandia-style interface might be good too?

I also like for the dialogue parts how Discworld used graphics to denote what the discussion would be about.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Armageddon on Fri 09/08/2013 03:46:20
No one has written a module to fix the Direct3D scaling? seems like that wouldn't be impossible. I really don't want to use it for my MAGS game because of the scaling issue. I guess I'll just have to draw the graphics with no scaling in mind.

It would be great if you could talk about getting on Steam without going through Greenlight, but I'm sure you've signed some NDA that prevents you from that. :P
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: dactylopus on Fri 09/08/2013 04:32:33
Thank you for sharing!  This is all very valuable information, and I'm sure it will be useful to many of us.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Babar on Fri 09/08/2013 04:47:33
I believe Primordia at least had to go through Greenlight. Most of the Blackwell games came out before Greenlight was a thing?

But yeah, thanks for this very interesting information!
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: qptain Nemo on Fri 09/08/2013 07:28:12
You said it's all from your own experience. What about number 5? Have you attempted making an episodic series which then failed?
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Radiant on Fri 09/08/2013 09:59:48
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Fri 09/08/2013 01:43:22Gemini Rue, for example, was a native 16 bit game! That's unheard of in 2013. It caused more technical issues than I can list. The same for 256 color games.
Is that simply a matter for the "Change Color Depth" menu option in AGS, or did you mean something more than that?
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Snarky on Fri 09/08/2013 10:23:36
Quote from: Armageddon on Fri 09/08/2013 03:46:20
No one has written a module to fix the Direct3D scaling? seems like that wouldn't be impossible. I really don't want to use it for my MAGS game because of the scaling issue. I guess I'll just have to draw the graphics with no scaling in mind.

Isn't this fixed in the betas?
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Dave Gilbert on Fri 09/08/2013 11:31:16
[WARNING! Long post ahead!]

Quote from: Armageddon on Fri 09/08/2013 03:46:20
It would be great if you could talk about getting on Steam without going through Greenlight, but I'm sure you've signed some NDA that prevents you from that. :P

Nope! No NDA. I'm free talk talk about it and often do. :)

When we released Gemini Rue, we knew we had a hit on our hands. It was the first game we launched that seemed to have "hardcore" gamer appeal - RPS loved it, as did Giant Bomb, among others. When it became the #5 rated PC game on Metacritic that month, I figured we were a slam dunk for Steam. I got all the information together and sent it to them, only to receive their boilerplate rejection letter in response.

I KNEW something was up. They never tell you their reasons for rejecting a game, so I couldn't ask them why. All evidence seemed to point that this was a game that the Steam audience would love, but for some reason they weren't accepting it. Something wasn't coming across in my pitch to them, so I hired a PR guy named Joe who could walk into their office during Casual Connect and make the pitch for me.

Joe told me an interesting story. During the meeting, the subject came up that Gemini Rue was an IGF nominee. Steam had NO idea that the game was an IGF nominee, DESPITE ME PUTTING IT ON THE SUBMISSION APPLICATION THREE TIMES!! They obviously never read the thing.

As for Blackwell, they also kept rejecting that. It submitted the whole series to them three times and only got their boilerplate rejection. After Gemini Rue got accepted, I tried pitching Blackwell to them again but again it got rejected. In the end it was Indie Royale to the rescue. The games appeared on one of their early bundles, back when Simon Carless was involved. The Blackwells were the only Indie Royale games WITHOUT Steam keys, and that looked bad, so Steam accepted the games purely on those grounds.

With EVERY game we submit to Steam, we have to do a version of this dance:

Puzzle Bots: Submitted to Steam. Steam rejects it. It got into the PAX Prime showcase and had a good showing. Steam accepts it.

Resonance: Submitted to Steam. Steam rejects it. We submit preview copies to every major press site under the sun and beg for preview coverage. The preview coverage is substantial and glowing. Steam accepts it.

Primordia: Submitted to Steam. Steam rejects it. They suggest going to Greenlight. We put the game on Greenlight and the game shoots up to the #47 spot in two weeks. The game becomes one of the prime examples of "What's wrong with Greenlight?" whenever the subject comes up. In the end, Steam accepts it.

As of now, we have eight games on Steam. Nine if you count Emerald City Confidential (which was a work-for-hire thing). I had hoped by this point that they would just whitelist me for any future game we do. About a month ago I asked them if I could have an app ID for our upcoming game so we could incorporate the Steam functionality early instead of at the last minute like we usually do (because, you know, they never accept us until the last minute).

The response? "We will review it and let you know." And so the dance begins again...


TL;DR: We knew the games were Steam-worthy, and it was just a matter of convincing them. That and we are aggressive, stubborn bastards.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Armageddon on Fri 09/08/2013 11:43:28
Didn't Steam remove their non-Greenlight submission page though? It kind of sucks that these "AAA" publishers get their stuff on Steam no questions asked and Valve won't even tell you what's wrong with your game. :( I guess it's not practical to make an indie game that doesn't win competitions and expect to get a Steam pre-order page before release.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Dave Gilbert on Fri 09/08/2013 11:47:00
Quote from: Armageddon on Fri 09/08/2013 11:43:28
Didn't Steam remove their non-Greenlight submission page though? It kind of sucks that these "AAA" publishers get their stuff on Steam no questions asked and Valve won't even tell you what's wrong with your game. :( I guess it's not practical to make an indie game that doesn't win competitions and expect to get a Steam pre-order page before release.

I think they did. Fortunately I have a relationship with one of the dev managers at Steam and I just submit all my games through him. But even still, I have to prove myself each time!
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Andail on Fri 09/08/2013 13:27:13
Thanks for some good advice.
I made sure to reduce the non-interactive segment of my intro, until you virtually start controlling the character right away.

The only point my game fails at here would be the 320x240 ratio - which sucks I guess but it's not really possible to change now. I have to say I'm less worried about the "4:3 ratio in 2013? Outrageous!"-response than pure functionality issues, since most people looking into point-n-click games in 320x resolution probably aren't too bothered by the game looking old fashioned...
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Dave Gilbert on Fri 09/08/2013 17:03:36
Quote from: Radiant on Fri 09/08/2013 09:59:48
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Fri 09/08/2013 01:43:22Gemini Rue, for example, was a native 16 bit game! That's unheard of in 2013. It caused more technical issues than I can list. The same for 256 color games.
Is that simply a matter for the "Change Color Depth" menu option in AGS, or did you mean something more than that?

Yes, Josh selected 16 bit from the color depth menu. This turned Gemini Rue into a native 16 bit game, which had a lot of conflicting issues with modern hardware.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Fri 09/08/2013 18:04:22
Quote from: Scavenger on Fri 09/08/2013 00:56:03
Quote from: Trapezoid on Fri 09/08/2013 00:35:45
If Direct3D supported 256 color mode and didn't ignore resolution when scaling down characters, maybe I'd be okay with it.

Direct3D is the reason why that happens? I thought I just had the settings messed up in Winsetup. It really spoils the experience of playing 320x200 games when the characters scale at a different resolution. Real unprofessional looking, and ugly to boot.

And I don't really have any choice but to use DirectDraw myself, and that's disappointing, since I love using 256 colour mode. Surely there's another way to render it?

Regarding 256 color games on D3D. JJS suggested implementing a cross software/d3d graphics mode that draws everything using software renderer on a temporary bitmap, then blits it over d3d texture.
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?issue=325.0
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Anian on Fri 09/08/2013 18:04:48
Maybe an almost unimportant question, but it sometimes really bugs me - is it better to go 16:10 or 16:9? Or is not really that important between those two? I really have no idea what the majority of people have/prefer.

3d games basically don't have this problem at all because they do whatever you set the camera to do, but is there like a trend amongst gamers?
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Fri 09/08/2013 18:12:28
Quote from: Anian on Fri 09/08/2013 18:04:48
Maybe an almost unimportant question, but it sometimes really bugs me - is it better to go 16:10 or 16:9? Or is not really that important between those two? I really have no idea what the majority of people have/prefer.
I found that apart from 4:3/widescreen holywars there are also 16:10/16:9 holywars in the Web :)

Personally I do not see any advantage of 16:9 over 16:10, but it seems that 16:9 monitors are more popular (I may be mistaken). 16:10 provides a bit more vertical space.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Tenacious Stu on Fri 09/08/2013 18:17:46
Really Awesome post Dave. Some useful pointers there. Also some nice insight into the steam submission process. Your next submission letter to should just start with:

WE ALREADY HAVE 8 GAMES ON STEAM, CAN YOU ACTUALLY READ THIS EMAIL PLEASE!

Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Anian on Fri 09/08/2013 18:44:37
First of all, how rude of me to forget, thanks mr. Gilbert, informative and useful as always.

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Fri 09/08/2013 18:12:28
Personally I do not see any advantage of 16:9 over 16:10, but it seems that 16:9 monitors are more popular (I may be mistaken). 16:10 provides a bit more vertical space.
Yes, I do realize that, but if I already have a 16:9 monitor (or if I had the other), there's not really that much for me to do about it now. Web pretty much figured it out with putting huge areas on either side of the screen and everything else being pretty much adaptive.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: DBoyWheeler on Fri 09/08/2013 20:25:07
Yeah, about that no Sierra-style GUI rule...

Perhaps a possible exception to the rule here could be in the style of Space Quest VI, where the Walk, Talk, Interact, etc. buttons are not hidden but in plain sight along with the inventory thing.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Fitz on Fri 09/08/2013 21:28:15
Wow, there's definitely some food for thought. Some things I had doubts about -- and some I never even knew.

I'm wondering about wide-screen vs. 4:3, though... AGS 3.2.1.11, which is what I'm using, has the 16:10 wide-screen resolutions for 320 and 640 -- but the next available resolutions, 800 x 600 and 1024 x 768, are both 4:3. For the project I'm planning/preparing for right now, I'd prefer a high resolution, at least 800 x 600. Should I reconsider and settle for something less?

Also, as far as the GUI is concerned, I think the interface in Primordia -- left for walking and interacting, right for looking - works perfectly. The only gripe I had with the overall interface is there aren't -- or don't seem to be -- any key shortcuts, and you have to wait for the drop-down menu to slide down each time and theeeen choose map/inventory/etc. It goes against the simplicity of the cursor GUI's.

Primordia also made me realize that you're totally right about episodic games. I have this idea for a story consisting of three parts. I was thinking about dividing the whole thing into three episodes, because each part takes place in a completely different setting AND employs different game mechanics. BUT it'd still make sense to make it one big game divided into acts instead.

As for intros, I don't think lenghty introductions are such a bad thing, especially if there's a good balance between the talking and visuals without the narrative, where you can just sit back and watch. I might've over-done it with the dialogues in Gray's intro -- but there's still plenty of non-stop action, and you gotta love that music ;) Aaaanyway... letting the player PLAY from the get-go -- and revealing the story bit by bit, instead -- is definitely a good idea. A model example of that is "Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis" - see for yourselves here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMp70vd7yP0). That's also the way I've decided to go about it this time, it feels natural with the story that I have in mind, with the player's own actions setting everything in motion. Also, I don't think I can do another five-minute intro :P
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: qptain Nemo on Sat 10/08/2013 08:21:36
Quote from: Fitz on Fri 09/08/2013 21:28:15
Primordia also made me realize that you're totally right about episodic games.
And Cognition and Kentucky Route Zero make me doubt the absoluteness of it. I know it's problematic and there are people who lack faith in that, but I don't think it should be labelled as a path of doom.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Armageddon on Sat 10/08/2013 08:35:32
Kentucky Route Zero did it right though, you buy the whole series, not each episode. There are also no deadlines because he's doing it in hiss spare time, he just releases them when they are done.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Lewis on Sat 10/08/2013 10:11:14
A really great thread, and I would echo all of Dave's points. I was thinking of doing something similar so decided to add my own to the mix - hope that's okay, Dave!

***

Grow a thick skin
When you decide to sell a creative work instead of giving it away for free, that apparently means you're saying it's okay for people to be really nasty to you. Get ready for horrible comments about your game, your graphics, your sound, your puzzles, your mother - no matter how awesome your game is. Richard & Alice has a Metascore in the 70s, but we've still seen people say they think it's disgusting that we dared to charge money for something so appalling. You quickly learn to ignore the outliers, and do the sensible thing, which is...

Listen to people whose opinions you respect
Do you have a keen gamer friend? Give your game to them, ask them to play it and give you some honest feedback. Is there a journalist who tends to agree with you about most games? Send them a preview build and pay attention to what they write. If these people have criticisms - the people you've selected because you think they're right about things - then for heaven's sake do something about it.

If you're using plugins, test on loads of machines as early as possible
Half-way through Richard & Alice's development, we realised that a plugin we were using made the game not work properly on some machines. It was too late to stop using this plugin, so we had to find a workaround. It was really annoying. If you're using a plugin, test it on all the graphics modes and all the setups you can possibly get hold of before you make the call to use it.

Kill every element of your GUI that isn't 100 percent necessary
Kind of echoing Dave's point about the old-school Sierra interface here, but I'd take it a step further and advise stripping it back as much as humanly possible. Get rid of everything you feel comfortable getting rid of, then keep getting rid of more stuff. Where possible, allow the player to do everything they might possibly want to do in no more than two clicks. Most things should only take one. Put the inventory on the game screen, and make it unintrusive. Create simple, easy-to-navigate menus that make logical sense and don't bury options unnecessarily. Limit the number of interaction buttons to two at the most. It's easy to think of complex interfaces as being indicative of complex games. They're not. They just distract people from the lovely things you've made. Strip it back, wherever possible.

Test early, test often
Yes, everyone's heard this one before, but it really is true. Have people read your design document. Have people look at your script and offer feedback. As soon as you have a working puzzle in-game, get someone to sit down and play it. Watch them in silence. Even better, stick them in a room on their own and film them playing it (Splash Damage's Ed Stern gave me this fantastic piece of advice). People will try to do what you want them to do if they feel they're being guided too much. Give people the game, and let them play it naturally, and see what happens. It will be agonising. But it will show you exactly where the problems with your game lie. Fix them, and give it to a new tester. Repeat the process. Keep doing this throughout the project. Your game will be better for it.

On a related note...

Testers almost always know when something doesn't work. Testers almost never know what to do to fix it.
When working with a larger number of testers, you'll start to notice some patterns. Some people just report on glaringly obvious bugs. Other people report on everything, from game design to dialogue to the exact shape of a character's nose. Whatever the level of detail, it's worth remembering that, if more than a couple of people point out the same flaw, you should probably do something about it. But be very wary of taking testers' advice on what exactly to change and what would work better. Fresh pairs of eyes are invaluable in spotting problems, but in my experience someone close to the project usually needs to pose the solution.

Make a team member responsible for managing your project
Possibly the lead designer / director, but if that's you, and you don't have much experience coordinating a project, do consider getting someone else to do it. This person will be responsible for nagging everyone else. They'll shout at you for trying to add new features or content at the eleventh hour, they'll set deadlines, and they'll generally get on people's nerves a good few times. But having a single person responsible for pulling everything together is, in my experience, vital if there are more than two of you working on a game. Someone needs to have the primary responsiblity of making sure this thing gets released. Try to do that democratically and you can end up with lots of things falling apart.

Start marketing immediately
This is particularly true if it's your first game. The benefit of having a solid group of people who are real evangelists for your game is extraordinary - but building up to that point took us multiple times as long as we expected. When we made Richard & Alice, we were both going into it as relatively well-known games journalists in the UK. We thought that would be enough. But - as I said at AdventureX last year - it isn't, because while people might like our writing, for all they know our game might be shit.

Start a dev blog the second you open the AGS editor. Make Facebook and Twitter accounts and add people ruthlessly. Keep talking about what you're doing and, hopefully, by the time release rolls around, you'll have a handful of people itching to play it and recommending it to others.

Learn how to do business
A sad but true one for my final point. When money becomes involved - whether you're selling your game for £30 or 30p - people will try to take advantage of you, and people will mess you around. You need to become savvy to this. You need to learn how to negotiate, and how to push back without putting people off. When you've poured every ounce of creative energy into a project for years, only to have a partner try to rip you off or a distributor try to impose ridiculous restrictions on when/where/for how much you can sell your game, it can be incredibly demoralising. Remember it's nothing personal, let it wash off you, and try your best to come out of the conversation getting what you need for your game to do well.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: qptain Nemo on Sat 10/08/2013 10:58:20
Very interesting advice, Lewis. I really should get around to playing R&A.  :-[
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: CaptainD on Sat 10/08/2013 20:59:47
Thanks Lewis, some real food for thought there.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: DazJ on Fri 30/08/2013 20:20:40
Excellent points all around but Direct3D causes nothing but problems in terms of object walk-behinds etc, making it completely unusable.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Dave Gilbert on Fri 30/08/2013 20:24:05
Quote from: DazJ on Fri 30/08/2013 20:20:40
Excellent points all around but Direct3D causes nothing but problems in terms of object walk-behinds etc, making it completely unusable.
Really? How so? I use object walk-behinds all the time.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: DazJ on Fri 30/08/2013 20:28:51
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Fri 30/08/2013 20:24:05
Quote from: DazJ on Fri 30/08/2013 20:20:40
Excellent points all around but Direct3D causes nothing but problems in terms of object walk-behinds etc, making it completely unusable.
Really? How so? I use object walk-behinds all the time.

It's always been like that for me, even on different machines with different setups. DirectDraw works flawlessly but Direct3D is a different story. A search on the forums brings up similar problems. I'm guessing it must be down to hardware.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Andail on Fri 30/08/2013 20:39:35
Does it have to do with the default driver setting?
I never have problems with my own game - it has direct3d as default driver and I never get objects appearing in front of characters, but recently I played a game where I had to change driver to direct3d (default was directdraw) and I got just that problem.

I really hope people won't have that problem when they play my game, because it looks disastrous and is an immediate game breaker.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: DazJ on Fri 30/08/2013 21:39:44
Quote from: Andail on Fri 30/08/2013 20:39:35
Does it have to do with the default driver setting?
I never have problems with my own game - it has direct3d as default driver and I never get objects appearing in front of characters, but recently I played a game where I had to change driver to direct3d (default was directdraw) and I got just that problem.

I really hope people won't have that problem when they play my game, because it looks disastrous and is an immediate game breaker.

It seems like something's not quite right with the driver then :/
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: StillInThe90s on Sat 31/08/2013 05:20:55
Thanks a lot Gilbert & Lewis & folks! Very interesting read.
@Andail: It appears that baselines and  things like IgnoreWalkbehind works differently in direct3d & directdraw. So a game designed and buggtracked with one driver may have issues if running with the other. At least that is my experience and is probably also what happened to that game you played.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Dave Gilbert on Mon 02/09/2013 14:54:10
Regarding the DirectDraw vs Direct3D thing. It's not a matter of what the developer finds easier/better to use, it's what the end user will experience.

The game won't even run on a significant percentage of PCs if it is distributed in DirectDraw mode.  What will happen is the game will launch and freeze on the very first screen. Sound will play and the mouse may-or-may-not move (it varies) and the user won't be able to do anything.  DirectDraw is so antiquated that a number of computers don't bother supporting it properly. It happened most often on laptops running Windows 7, but desktop users reported the issue as well. There are various ways of troubleshooting the problem, but they vary from computer to computer.

This was a huge problem with Gemini Rue, since the game could only run in DirectDraw mode thanks to its use of the snow/rain plugin.  We got several complaints about this, but it wasn't until the game launched on Steam that the complaints turned into a tidal wave. Every day they came, and there was very little I could do about it.  After months and months of wrecking our brains trying to sort out why the game wouldn't run (and logging swaths of complaints in the interim) we eventually just bit the bullet and re-wrote the snow/rain plugin to work with Direct3D.  There have been no complaints since.

While it IS true that the player can just switch to D3D mode, it is difficult to explain that to them in a concise and simple manner (opening up the game's folder and clicking on setup is NOT intuitive). And be prepared to do so several times every day!  Even if you include the info in a readme or a technical FAQ or something, I know from experience that nobody ever reads those. Instead, here's what will happen: they will download the demo, get the freeze, and then go "meh." Then they will either delete it and forget about it, or go onto their favorite game forum complaining that the game doesn't run (and getting agreements from everybody else who had the same problem). I know this will happen, because it happened to Gemini Rue. A LOT. :)

So believe me when I say that it's not totally arbitrary when I insist that a commercial game be created with Direct3D mode in mind.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: on Mon 02/09/2013 18:00:57
This has been my week so far. Yesterday I located your "switch to high performance" solve for laptops, but is there a specific resolve for Win 7 games freezing up on a desktop machine (for a game that does not have the option to switch between directdraw & direct3d in winsetup). Re: Downfall, so you've probably had some of these questions over time too Dave?

It's still pretty important (and a sad fact about AGS IMO) that it's necessary to get everything right before release. If you distribute with game breaking errors, or can't add something on easily enough in the future, you're going to gain some wrinkles soon enough... Something really needs to exist to help patch AGS games, EXE files in particular - because replacing an entire game (re-distributing a large game to many people for example) is just clunky and not great for (small) commercial enterprises. Yet customers expect it because they've seen gigantic VG corporations do it. Mind you I know nothing of the 'patching' world and quite how those things actually work. All I know is that I'm faced with logistical nightmares because there is no known way of patching a game at this point. And when a game needs to be fixed and is available across multiple stores...well, may as well just get the shotgun out now TBH :P
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Knox on Mon 02/09/2013 18:02:48
For me Im a bit worried about the "no sierra-style interface". I really like that interface, and really hate the 2-click one. I find it a lot more satisifying personally to be able to choose different kinds of interactions instead of 1 click for move and one for all interactions.

As a work-around, it is a good idea to offer 2 or more different interfaces and let the player choose?
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Ali on Mon 02/09/2013 18:49:49
Quote from: Mods on Mon 02/09/2013 18:00:57
Something really needs to exist to help patch AGS games, EXE files in particular - because replacing an entire game (re-distributing a large game to many people for example) is just clunky and not great for (small) commercial enterprises.

I don't know if it's practical for a commercial release, but I've used Clickteam's Patch Maker (http://www.clickteam.com/patch-maker) with AGS. Of course, it breaks save games, but the patch worked.

Quote from: General_Knox on Mon 02/09/2013 18:02:48
For me Im a bit worried about the "no sierra-style interface". I really like that interface, and really hate the 2-click one. I find it a lot more satisifying personally to be able to choose different kinds of interactions instead of 1 click for move and one for all interactions.

This might be off topic, but I think the Sierra interface is a really terrible idea, and it excludes all but the most committed nostalgia-phile. I think Vince Twelve's "Why your Game is Broken" article from a few years ago was the best case against it. Imagine an operating system, he suggested, which required you to 'Listen' to sound files 'Look' at photos and 'Read' documents, rather than just double-clicking on each of them. It would baffle and enrage people.

I was depressed to find playthroughs of Nelly Cootalot: Spoonbeaks Ahoy! (as well as several comments across the web) in which people can't get the game working because they don't understand the verb-coin interface. It was an embarrassing reminder that times have moved on...
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: on Mon 02/09/2013 19:07:19
Quote from: Ali on Mon 02/09/2013 18:49:49
Quote from: Mods on Mon 02/09/2013 18:00:57
Something really needs to exist to help patch AGS games, EXE files in particular - because replacing an entire game (re-distributing a large game to many people for example) is just clunky and not great for (small) commercial enterprises.

I don't know if it's practical for a commercial release, but I've used Clickteam's Patch Maker (http://www.clickteam.com/patch-maker) with AGS. Of course, it breaks save games, but the patch worked.

Now *that's* useful! Going to give it a shot. Thank you :)
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Dave Gilbert on Mon 02/09/2013 19:09:37
The weird thing with patchmakers is that since AGS bundles the whole game into one big EXE, the patch-file is only negligibly smaller than the full game itself! Although if you are using VO files than it's definitely worthwhile.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Dave Gilbert on Mon 02/09/2013 19:18:24
Quote from: Mods on Mon 02/09/2013 18:00:57
This has been my week so far. Yesterday I located your "switch to high performance" solve for laptops, but is there a specific resolve for Win 7 games freezing up on a desktop machine (for a game that does not have the option to switch between directdraw & direct3d in winsetup).


Sadly, nope! The high performance trick only works about a third of the time with laptops. For desktops, I have no idea. There are lots of possible solutions and some of them might work for a specific customer, but it's a really long and tedious process to troubleshoot each one. As I am sure you are discovering! Like I said, it's much easier in the long run to create a game that doesn't need to run in DirectDraw in the first place. This is why I avoid plugins like the plague! :)

Quote
Re: Downfall, so you've probably had some of these questions over time too Dave?

Downfall was created with an older version of the engine that CAN'T switch to Direct3D. It would have to be recompiled with the latest version of the engine and tested to make sure it works properly in that mode.

Quote
It's still pretty important (and a sad fact about AGS IMO) that it's necessary to get everything right before release. If you distribute with game breaking errors, or can't add something on easily enough in the future, you're going to gain some wrinkles soon enough... Something really needs to exist to help patch AGS games, EXE files in particular - because replacing an entire game (re-distributing a large game to many people for example) is just clunky and not great for (small) commercial enterprises. Yet customers expect it because they've seen gigantic VG corporations do it. Mind you I know nothing of the 'patching' world and quite how those things actually work. All I know is that I'm faced with logistical nightmares because there is no known way of patching a game at this point. And when a game needs to be fixed and is available across multiple stores...well, may as well just get the shotgun out now TBH :P

Patching is a royal PITA, if only because it breaks save games. And if your game is on Steam, it's even a bigger pain. You upload a patch and it automatically updates everybody's game, whether they want it or not. All your players will wake up that morning and discover that their savegames no longer work, and you will spend several days fielding complaints.  You will need to create new savegames for them and give them the link - another royal PITA. So my best advice is to only upload a patch when it's REALLY worth it - e.g., just before a major sale or promotion. Definitely don't do it AFTER! :-D

Quote
For me Im a bit worried about the "no sierra-style interface". I really like that interface, and really hate the 2-click one. I find it a lot more satisifying personally to be able to choose different kinds of interactions instead of 1 click for move and one for all interactions.

Is your game freeware or commercial? If it's freeware, who cares? :-D If it's commercial, you might want to think about streamlining it.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Trapezoid on Mon 02/09/2013 20:03:41
Quote from: Ali on Mon 02/09/2013 18:49:49This might be off topic, but I think the Sierra interface is a really terrible idea, and it excludes all but the most committed nostalgia-phile. I think Vince Twelve's "Why your Game is Broken" article from a few years ago was the best case against it. Imagine an operating system, he suggested, which required you to 'Listen' to sound files 'Look' at photos and 'Read' documents, rather than just double-clicking on each of them. It would baffle and enrage people.
Imagine an operating system with no context menus.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Trapezoid on Mon 02/09/2013 20:16:19
And AGS's graphics driver issues need to be fixed, badly. When DirectDraw works, it works like a proper low-res game should. It does not do this:
(http://i.imgur.com/S9g4tDR.png)
(If HTML5 (http://www.effectgames.com/demos/canvascycle/) can display 256 color in your browser, why can't AGS in a window?)

And this pixel-size incongruity:
(http://i.imgur.com/H7bifcv.png)
There MUST be a fix for that. Shouldn't it simply be rendering a 320x200 screen and displaying it at 2x/3x?
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Dave Gilbert on Mon 02/09/2013 20:27:16
The issue with that screenshot is that Ed is scaled down, and in Direct3D mode it tends to smooth out the edges. In other locations where he is full-sized he would be displayed completely fine. It's hard to notice the smoothing in that image, at least for most people. It's REALLY noticeable when the characters are scaled down a lot, but most of the time it's hard to notice unless you are a big pixel art purist, which it appears you are! :)

I do "get" why most people prefer DirectDraw, but with AGS the way it is now it can only be Direct3D for practical commercial purposes. Unless you don't mind losing around 1/3 of your sales. :(
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Trapezoid on Mon 02/09/2013 21:00:07
I wonder if you could make an autohotkey launch program which runs the game, detects if there's a "no DirectDraw" error, changes the config file, and tries running the game again.

Edit: Maybe not, since you say the game will run, just with horrible bugs. Hmm.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Dave Gilbert on Mon 02/09/2013 21:13:02
Yeah, the game runs but not much else. :)

You can read the whole DirectDraw saga (the discovery of the issue, and our crazy attempts to solve it) over on the WEG forum. (http://www.wadjeteyegames.com/forum/index.php?topic=874.0)
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: DazJ on Mon 02/09/2013 21:15:40
It's all very well with people saying create your game in Direct3D if it's commercial, but when there's so many glitches with walkbehinds/tinting, it's simply not a viable option. Why is there issues with the Direct3D walkbehinds/tinting?
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Dave Gilbert on Mon 02/09/2013 21:21:12
Quote from: DazJ on Mon 02/09/2013 21:15:40
Why is there issues with the Direct3D walkbehinds/tinting?

Short answer: Because AGS. :)

Longer answer: Computers and hardware change, and AGS hasn't really kept up. I love using it, and it gets so many things right. But what it gets "wrong" is sometimes so aggravating that I'm tempted to switch to another engine.

There's a thread over on the Tech forum about this issue, which explains why the walkbehind issue happens and how to avoid it: http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48907.0

As for tinting, what problems are you having there? Sadly there are some DirectDraw features that Direct3D just can't do. :(
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: cat on Mon 02/09/2013 21:25:07
My sister could not play some of the bakesale games because her old laptop didn't support Direct3D (roll)
So probably it would be a good idea to support both modes...
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: DazJ on Mon 02/09/2013 21:28:21
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Mon 02/09/2013 21:21:12
Quote from: DazJ on Mon 02/09/2013 21:15:40
As for tinting, what problems are you having there? Sadly there are some DirectDraw features that Direct3D just can't do. :(

I'm primarily referring to region light levels, not tinting (my fault - I always confuse the two) - The light levels simply don't work in Direct3D but work flawlessly in DirectDraw.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Dave Gilbert on Mon 02/09/2013 21:32:32
Quote from: cat on Mon 02/09/2013 21:25:07
My sister could not play some of the bakesale games because her old laptop didn't support Direct3D (roll)
So probably it would be a good idea to support both modes...

I used to have this problem too! Older computers don't support Direct3D, while newer ones don't support DirectDraw. But the older ones are getting fewer and less relevant. And while a Direct3D game can be switched to DirectDraw mode with relatively few problems (assuming the computer can run DirectDraw), the reverse is rarely true. It's impossible to create a game that uses DirectDraw features which can also be run in Direct3D, so if you just focus on Direct3D you should be (theoretically!) fine.

Quote
I'm primarily referring to region light levels, not tinting (my fault - I always confuse the two) - The light levels simply don't work in Direct3D but work flawlessly in DirectDraw.

Really? I use region light levels all the time as well! Now I'm really confused.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: DazJ on Mon 02/09/2013 21:34:51
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Mon 02/09/2013 21:32:32
Really? I use region light levels all the time as well! Now I'm really confused.

Exactly, it's odd. This is why I'm wondering if it's down to hardware. We'll know for sure tomorrow because I'm conveniently expecting a graphics card being delivered so we'll have a better idea.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: StillInThe90s on Mon 02/09/2013 23:10:54
Would a launcher window with simplified setup help some of the user end driver-confusion? Something like big start buttons saying "run with direct3d" and "run with direcrdraw". Or would that only make things worse? I think Trapezoid made some little ahk script that wrote its own ags config file. Right?

Is the plugin issue a plugin-only thing or should we have second thoughts about modules as well? I tested helios123's (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=41448.msg547936#msg547936) rain/snow module in D3D just now and it seemed ok...
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Dave Gilbert on Tue 03/09/2013 00:07:54
The problem with that is that the average user will have no idea what DirectDraw even IS. When I first started having issues with DirectDraw and called tech support, even THEY were surprised I was still using it. They even recommended I use dosbox. :)
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens on Tue 03/09/2013 05:25:36
This is actually really good advice, Dave, particularly the issue with resolutions.  You've just convinced me not to make another game in 3:4 aspect ratio.  I had a feeling widescreen was so accessible now that gaming warehouses like steam were actually culling the herd based on resolution, though it's obvious some games still slip through Greenlight (I'm pretty sure Hammerwatch uses a 3:4 aspect ratio with resizing).

Quote
    Something really needs to exist to help patch AGS games, EXE files in particular - because replacing an entire game (re-distributing a large game to many people for example) is just clunky and not great for (small) commercial enterprises.

I would list this as the single greatest flaw in ags; the lack of any kind of pre-conceived patch system in the engine for people having to fix bugs post-release.  To fix this would take considerable work, not the least of which would be going through the entire savegame code and rewriting large sections of it, which probably isn't very likely and would break compatibility with earlier ags builds.  AGS is a lovely engine for personal labors of love but at this point, in my honest opinion I just wouldn't use it for a commercial release.  I've personally seen some of the angst Dave's had to endure with each game and each specific problem that was just a result of some ags legacy issue that goes unresolved and more often it happens the less your fanbase is going to tolerate excuses.  In the end you are better off finding an engine you can license (and request patches and improvements to) that is being officially developed if you want to make a commercial product.  Yes, it costs money but you often have to spend money to make money. 

Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Tue 03/09/2013 08:19:54
Quote from: Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens on Tue 03/09/2013 05:25:36
I would list this as the single greatest flaw in ags; the lack of any kind of pre-conceived patch system in the engine for people having to fix bugs post-release.  To fix this would take considerable work, not the least of which would be going through the entire savegame code and rewriting large sections of it, which probably isn't very likely and would break compatibility with earlier ags builds.

Hmm, I already rewrote savegame code from scratch for 3.4.0 alpha build ;). The old savegame format had data loaded in an order that prevented correct initialization of unlimited number of items in the rooms... so I had to do this. The compatibility with savegames made by older ags builds is important only for minor versions of the engine (updates), in my opinion. For instance, 3.2.1 could only read savegames down to 3.1.something, IIRC.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Snarky on Tue 03/09/2013 08:24:34
Quote from: Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens on Tue 03/09/2013 05:25:36In the end you are better off finding an engine you can license (and request patches and improvements to) that is being officially developed if you want to make a commercial product.  Yes, it costs money but you often have to spend money to make money.

Or find someone you can hire to fix the specific issues with AGS!
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Monsieur OUXX on Tue 03/09/2013 12:26:20
On Indiana Jones and the Seven Cities of Gold, we implemented an implicit fix to the "patching breaks saved games" thing.
We have a system of automated teleportation (for debug purposes), that brings the player to key places of the game, with all the needed inventory items. I suppose everyone does that, but we really made it natural (there's a gui as soon as you start the game, asking you where you want to start it -- also we have A LOT of those checkpoints).

It would be extremely easy to hide that gui somewhere in the final release (like "press Ctrl+D to make it appear") that would display a text box where the player has to enter a code to access the corresponding checkpoint. The codes would be known only to us.
It's pretty much what old consoles did, when you had to enter a secret code to access a level.

Therefore, when Dave wrote "it's a pain to release saved games to rescue players who got their saved games broken by patches", we wouldn't be impacted by that issue: what we would do, is publish this on the game's forum: "the patch broke your saved game? Well, press Ctrl+D and enter the following code in the textbox to access that part of the game". Needless to say, we wouldn't reveal the existence of that Gui nor the exact code to enter unless the need for it arose.


Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: qptain Nemo on Tue 03/09/2013 12:31:55
I would call that a hack rather than a fix... :)
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Calin Leafshade on Tue 03/09/2013 12:42:15
In my latest AGS game I am experimenting with not using the AGS save system at all.

Using Lua (i know, lol) one can serialized data *in lua* so you can save a file that looks like this:

Code (lua) Select

return {
characters =
{
    { -- Character 0
      Room = 3,
      x = 5,
      y = 6
    },
    { -- Character 1
      Room = 1,
      x = 180,
      y = 25
    }
  },
  rooms =
  {
    -- now save the room states
    -- In our new lua based system rooms are global and so they can be changed and accessed at any time
    {  -- Room 1
      objects = {
        { -- object 0
          x = 60,
          y = 85,
          visible = false
        }
        -- and so on
      }
    }
  }
}


Then you just load that file as a lua file and it returns an object already formatted for you which you can distribute to the various objects automatically.

This is quite simple to set up and guaranteed to be future proof since you can assume default values for new variables not contained in the save file. You can even save a game version number to the save so you can handle the logic manually.

I find this approach to be better simply because adventure game states are actually very simple. Usually its just a couple of object/character positions, the inventory and a handful of state variables. Also, the whole process can be automated fairly easily by having a "game state" object where you put game state variables:

Code (lua) Select

gameState = {}
gameState.hasSeenEventOne = true

--then we can just serialise this object as well.
--This approach also makes it easy to track the game state.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Dave Gilbert on Tue 03/09/2013 12:42:44
Agreed. It's a hack, and not the best solution either. When you take achievements, multiple paths, and various states of the game, it becomes a massive muddle. Not only that, but you will have to test each save point (from the point it starts till the end of the game) to make sure it works properly.  It's much more preferable to play through the game once and make savefiles as you go - that way you know for sure that they all work.  There's also the logistics of telling everyone about the hack. Answering emails and telling them about the hack, or answering emails to give them a link to new save files - same thing. :)

Neither of these methods solve the core problem, though. Short of re-writing how saves work, it's difficult to get around.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: KodiakBehr on Tue 03/09/2013 12:55:14
Thanks Dave, solid guidance here.

Had this particular post been around last year, I probably could have avoided a lot of headaches.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Radiant on Tue 03/09/2013 13:36:26
Quote from: Monsieur OUXX on Tue 03/09/2013 12:26:20
We have a system of automated teleportation (for debug purposes), that brings the player to key places of the game, with all the needed inventory items. I suppose everyone does that, but we really made it natural (there's a gui as soon as you start the game, asking you where you want to start it -- also we have A LOT of those checkpoints).
That only works if your game is fairly linear, though. If you have five or six puzzles that can be solved in any order, I don't think a menu like that would help.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Tue 03/09/2013 13:39:21
I was thinking there could be a "states list" with checkboxes (to mark which checkpoints were passed/puzzles solved).
Too bad AGS does not have built-in "checkbox" control :-\.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Monsieur OUXX on Tue 03/09/2013 14:29:17
Yes, I didn't think of such modern wizardry like achievements. (even though we're very close to addressing branched puzzles with a finite state machines system).
I only mentionned that minimalist, obvious option because I think that, despite what Dave says, it could help avoiding a short period of panic for both players and developers after all the saved games get broken.


Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Tue 03/09/2013 13:39:21
Too bad AGS does not have built-in "checkbox" control :-\.
We wrote a module for that! Dod you want it? ;) (just kidding -- it does exist, but it's so ugly we'd never share it with anyone!)
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: donkeymilk on Mon 16/09/2013 22:39:23
I totally agree with the points you made Dave.
I'm a game player(as opposed to game maker!)and while as you say the old style methods of playing the game by having to click on a talk icon first or the hand icon and then move that click over to whatever you are doing ingame is really frustrating and puts me off playing some games.
I think peoples brains have become rewired to expect a more fluid way of progressing in the game.
It's like Sam and Max(Telltale),where you hold the click and Sam starts running along,clever.
The 320x200? what is that?It's never worked on any ags game i've played and i don't understand why it's there (prob.just my computer eh?).I always have to fiddle with the options or usually use the next available working option which is 640x400
Anyway, these are just some things I've noticed, as a bog standard game player.
Keep making great games ,thanks

P.S.. When are we getting a new follow up,i miss joey and the gang!(primordia was great too!)
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Radiant on Mon 28/10/2013 11:49:08
Related to these issues, I'm curious what people's experiences are with distributing as an installer EXE vs distributing as a ZIP?
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Calin Leafshade on Mon 28/10/2013 11:54:41
I generally wont bother with an AGS game thats distributed as an EXE. That might seem petty but it just annoys me and most AGS games are on a knifes edge anyway with regards to whether or not i'll give them a shot.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Dave Gilbert on Mon 28/10/2013 12:12:27
As a whole, most prefer EXEs to ZIPS. You'd be surprised how many people don't know what ZIPS even are!
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Radiant on Mon 28/10/2013 12:40:26
Interesting, thank you. Do you have recommendations for a (preferably freeware) tool that makes EXE installers?
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Mon 28/10/2013 12:47:06
Quote from: Radiant on Mon 28/10/2013 12:40:26
Do you have recommendations for a (preferably freeware) tool that makes EXE installers?
For AGS betas I use InnoSetup (http://www.jrsoftware.org/isinfo.php) :)

Also, regarding EXE vs ZIP: I have nothing against EXE if the game is full-length, because it usually automatically creates icons for easy launching. I prefer to have zips for shorter games, that may be passed in couple of hours to couple of days period. Simply a matter of convenience.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Snarky on Mon 28/10/2013 13:56:44
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Mon 28/10/2013 12:12:27
As a whole, most prefer EXEs to ZIPS. You'd be surprised how many people don't know what ZIPS even are!

I think this is another of those things that separates Wadjet Eye's "casual" general audience from more computer-savvy (or just AGS-savvy) players. Zips are easier and less hassle if you're familiar with them, you get to control where the files end up, and they're not going to clutter up your menus or registry. And it can be reassuring just to see the usual AGS files, as opposed to an installer EXE that's going to do god knows what.

But if you don't have a clue about any of this stuff, obviously an EXE is better. And since this is a thread about going commercial, you have to assume most of the audience is going to be clueless. (It might still be worth providing ZIPs as an option, though.)
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: qptain Nemo on Mon 28/10/2013 14:23:42
Quite a dilemma. I suppose some kind of ideal solution would be an installer that is also recognized by archivers as a self-extracting archive so you can just open it with them and extract stuff wherever you want. Then you can just add a note that points that fact out so experienced users can take advantage of that fact if they wish.
Or am I just being a perfectionist and overcomplicating everything again?
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Mon 28/10/2013 14:42:45
Why not allow users to select which file format to download? E.g. download as installer, download as archive.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Snarky on Mon 28/10/2013 16:11:29
Yeah, but the archive version should be a tarball distributed inside an ace file, to ensure that only qualified users go down that path. (When I worked as a set-top box developer, that â€" or something much like it â€" was how we put the software package onto the boxes, for some bizarre reason.)
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Monsieur OUXX on Mon 28/10/2013 16:29:01
Quote from: qptain Nemo on Mon 28/10/2013 14:23:42
Quite a dilemma. I suppose some kind of ideal solution would be an installer that is also recognized by archivers as a self-extracting archive.

Yes. There is nothing that annoys me more than an installer that gives me a CRC error when, instead of double-clicking it, I right-click on it and select my beloved "extract here".
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: qptain Nemo on Mon 28/10/2013 17:06:24
Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Mon 28/10/2013 14:42:45
Why not allow users to select which file format to download? E.g. download as installer, download as archive.
No big reasons but: it requires you to provide two links (per platform?) all the time and doubles the storage space. Still, it's probably the optimal solution in most cases. Though...

What about big games? Let's say the game is 1 Gb or more. Would any experienced usersâ,,¢ still want a separate archive version?
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Radiant on Tue 29/10/2013 14:27:16
An issue is that if I release a game as a zip, Enhanced Saved Games won't work (unless there's a way to do the windows registry operation from within the game somehow).
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Monsieur OUXX on Thu 31/10/2013 23:30:23
Quote from: Radiant on Tue 29/10/2013 14:27:16
An issue is that if I release a game as a zip, Enhanced Saved Games won't work (unless there's a way to do the windows registry operation from within the game somehow).

You could make that Registry edit happen in a .bat file (e.g. "finish install.bat"):
- the installer runs it automatically
OR
- the player who just unzipped the game must run that batch file manually.

Maybe you could find a way to check from within the game if the player ran the .bat file, and if not, to display a message saying to do it.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Radiant on Fri 01/11/2013 00:43:23
Quote from: Monsieur OUXX on Thu 31/10/2013 23:30:23Maybe you could find a way to check from within the game if the player ran the .bat file, and if not, to display a message saying to do it.
Interesting. Is that possible?
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: on Fri 01/11/2013 17:19:15
Dave is definitely a pioneer.

New Lessons Learned: How to break BMT Micro.

http://www.reddoorbluekey.com/features/interviews/hackers-stole-30000-blackwell-deception-steam-keys-dave-gilbert-responds/

(laugh)
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Dave Gilbert on Sat 02/11/2013 23:03:23
Also known as: how NOT to do a free giveaway.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Fitz on Sun 03/11/2013 00:12:36
Just to take your mind off the heavy topic -- and pester you about another annoying topic - I have a question to you, Dave: I'm playing Resonance right now, and the resolution in it is 640x480 (and so was Primordia, if I'm not mistaken). Have people reported any problems there? I remember you recommending wide-screen to avoid trouble with 4:3 ratios being displayed incorrectly on laptops, etc. The reason I'm asking is I'd love to make something BIG (and possibly commercial) in  hi-res, and 800x600 is the closest to what I'd be willing to settle for. Alas, there is no wide-screen alternative. So... should I reconsider? I've already made one game in 800x600 and got no complaints so far -- but I have no idea whether it's because no one had any or no one bothered. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Dave Gilbert on Sun 03/11/2013 00:18:24
Resonance was 320x240 scaled up to 640x480. Primordia was 320x200 scaled up to 640x400. There weren't many major complaints, but they have been vocal. The most annoying issue that it's hard to know how a monitor will react to it - sometimes it will stretch the image to fit the widescreen format. It's not a deal breaker by any means, but it definitely does look... odd in this day and age.

It's a shame that AGS doesn't support high-resolution widescreen resolutions yet. Is that in the works with the new update?
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Igor Hardy on Sun 03/11/2013 00:59:59
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Sun 03/11/2013 00:18:24
It's a shame that AGS doesn't support high-resolution widescreen resolutions yet. Is that in the works with the new update?

There's a perfectly working HD version of the newest AGS beta. I tested it for my 720p game I started on an older custom build done by Skygoblin. I also got to scale the game screen to different sizes (so that it could fit on the image from an 1024x768 projector for instance) and so far runs flawlessly.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Fitz on Sun 03/11/2013 12:05:41
Just downloaded and tested the 3.3.0 beta (that's the one you're talking about, right?) and the only new available resolution is the 1024 x 768 you mentioned -- which is still 4:3, not widescreen.

Dave, was there a particular brand/model of laptops that had this issue, or was it the graphic card (hi-end vs. integrated)OR system issue (Vista vs. Win 7)? I think I could try asking people (here or GameJolt), whether anyone had these issues with Monty. Also, in case I ever go commercial, the most fair thing to do, I think, would be to release a demo of the game -- which would allow the potential player/buyer to test whether it works on their system, OR whether they can handle the weird display.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Dave Gilbert on Sun 03/11/2013 12:16:07
Sadly, I don't know! As with the DirectDraw issue, the results vary from computer to computer and I don't really have the time or resources to troubleshoot them all (my method of dealing with it now is to avoid the problem in the first place!) But like I said, it's not a deal breaker. It didn't stop Resonance from being one of our best-sellers in 2012, but I think it got a lot of leeway because of how old-school it looked. For a game as high-res as you want to go, people might not be as forgiving.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Snarky on Sun 03/11/2013 12:26:38
Quote from: Fitz on Sun 03/11/2013 12:05:41
Just downloaded and tested the 3.3.0 beta (that's the one you're talking about, right?) and the only new available resolution is the 1024 x 768 you mentioned -- which is still 4:3, not widescreen.

He's talking about this build: http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=49014.0
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Fitz on Sun 03/11/2013 21:46:53
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Sun 03/11/2013 12:16:07
For a game as high-res as you want to go, people might not be as forgiving.

Yeah, people get MAD when things don't work right. I remember Bulletstorm getting a whole load of 1's on Amazon for using the wretched GFWL -- which admittedly sucks, and I myself almost gave up on the game trying to get GFWL to basically work, but the game itself was a blast, actually. Same thing happens on GameJolt -- where games are free, so there's no reason to get this mad. The problem is you can't expect all people to tinker with some settings in some file in some folder somewhere like back in the days when you had to set up your sound card in every game, know your IRQ, DMA and whatnot, and know your way around autoexec and config.sys. Hell, I wouldn't count on everyone to notice the suggestion to play the demo first -- because there have been times when I myself have clicked my way blindly through some forms, only to notice I bought the wrong thing and it said it right there on top, in caps.

So yeah, best to make the experience as smooth as possible for the user. I'll try the link that Snarky posted, see how that works :) Thanks!
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: StillInThe90s on Mon 04/11/2013 01:15:53
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Sun 03/11/2013 00:18:24Resonance was 320x240 scaled up to 640x480. Primordia was 320x200 scaled up to 640x400.
Possibly stupid question (it's pretty late over here), but why upscale? What are the benefits?
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Armageddon on Mon 04/11/2013 01:35:00
Quote from: StillInThe90s on Mon 04/11/2013 01:15:53
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Sun 03/11/2013 00:18:24Resonance was 320x240 scaled up to 640x480. Primordia was 320x200 scaled up to 640x400.
Possibly stupid question (it's pretty late over here), but why upscale? What are the benefits?
Retro pixel boners.

Also it would be so small you'd never be able to click on anything and everything would be a pixel hunt and the text would be hard to read.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Snarky on Mon 04/11/2013 09:21:46
Two ways to understand the question, Armageddon:

Q1) If you run the game fullscreen (as most games are set to by default), it fills the screen regardless, so why upscale?
A) Not all computers/screens can set 320x200/240 resolutions, and even if they do the results aren't always great (the graphics either appear blurry or just in a small part of the screen). By turning on one of the upscaling filters in AGS, you get better compatibility. (3x and 4x might look even better depending on your screen.)

Q2) Why does Wadjet Eye do that thing (in some of the Blackwell games, at least) where the graphics are pre-scaled, so the game is actually running in a higher resolution than it looks even without an upscaling filter?
A) Mainly to be able to display text in higher resolution, I believe. Plus, the oldest Blackwell game(s) are from before AGS supported filters. I agree that it's an odd choice. (Interestingly, the beta version of Resonance did the same thing, but not the final version.)
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: EliasFrost on Mon 04/11/2013 11:27:18
I upscale my game only because the mouse sensetivity is based per pixel and not resolution, so for a 320x200 game the sense is very choppy while a 640x400 is a lot less choppy. It's also so that I can fit more text on the screen on 640x400 than on 320x200.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Trapezoid on Mon 04/11/2013 18:19:38
If you don't like low-res text and mouse movement, don't make a low-res game. >:(

Also, I've said it before, AGS needs to abolish fullscreen mode and just upscale the game image to the user's current screen resolution. Most screens these days are designed to look good at one specific resolution and nothing else.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: EliasFrost on Mon 04/11/2013 19:12:41
It's a lot harder for one person to develop high-res games than it is to use low-res pixel art upscaled. Technically it's higher resolution since the assets are upscaled to a higher resolution.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: donkeymilk on Sat 09/11/2013 17:10:20
Quote from: Fitz on Sun 03/11/2013 21:46:53
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Sun 03/11/2013 12:16:07
For a game as high-res as you want to go, people might not be as forgiving.

Yeah, people get MAD when things don't work right. I remember Bulletstorm getting a whole load of 1's on Amazon for using the wretched GFWL -- which admittedly sucks, and I myself almost gave up on the game trying to get GFWL to basically work, but the game itself was a blast, actually. Same thing happens on GameJolt -- where games are free, so there's no reason to get this mad. The problem is you can't expect all people to tinker with some settings in some file in some folder somewhere like back in the days when you had to set up your sound card in every game, know your IRQ, DMA and whatnot, and know your way around autoexec and config.sys. Hell, I wouldn't count on everyone to notice the suggestion to play the demo first -- because there have been times when I myself have clicked my way blindly through some forms, only to notice I bought the wrong thing and it said it right there on top, in caps.

So yeah, best to make the experience as smooth as possible for the user. I'll try the link that Snarky posted, see how that works :) Thanks!
I reckon it's an extremely important thing to get right ,as there is a huge amount of games released regularly and your casual user would quickly move on to something that doesn't give them any issues.
If u want to sell your game commercially and be successful,it's those casual users you need to satisfy.
The majority of people here ,probably don't mind too much if a game requires a bit of fiddling with to get working.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: donkeymilk on Sun 10/11/2013 22:38:41
Quote from: qptain Nemo on Mon 28/10/2013 14:23:42
Quite a dilemma. I suppose some kind of ideal solution would be an installer that is also recognized by archivers as a self-extracting archive so you can just open it with them and extract stuff wherever you want. Then you can just add a note that points that fact out so experienced users can take advantage of that fact if they wish.
Or am I just being a perfectionist and overcomplicating everything again?
Problem solved!!
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: StillInThe90s on Mon 11/11/2013 23:15:34
Quote from: Snarky on Mon 04/11/2013 09:21:46
Two ways to understand the question, Armageddon:

Q1) If you run the game fullscreen (as most games are set to by default), it fills the screen regardless, so why upscale?
A) Not all computers/screens can set 320x200/240 resolutions, and even if they do the results aren't always great (the graphics either appear blurry or just in a small part of the screen). By turning on one of the upscaling filters in AGS, you get better compatibility. (3x and 4x might look even better depending on your screen.)

Q2) Why does Wadjet Eye do that thing (in some of the Blackwell games, at least) where the graphics are pre-scaled, so the game is actually running in a higher resolution than it looks even without an upscaling filter?
A) Mainly to be able to display text in higher resolution, I believe. Plus, the oldest Blackwell game(s) are from before AGS supported filters. I agree that it's an odd choice. (Interestingly, the beta version of Resonance did the same thing, but not the final version.)
Thanks. I guess I meant both. :)
Are there any other reasons for using upscaled graphics instead of filters, other than the ones mentioned? - If you don't want high res text, and things like that.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Uhfgood on Sun 08/12/2013 05:32:31
I'm kind of curious about something.  Please forgive me as I don't know the inner workings of how save games and patching and all that works.  I'm just wondering why there's a problem with loading saved games that "break" with newer patches.  How come the game can't detect that you have an old save, and convert it appropriately to one that doesn't break the engine, and do it seamlessly so it looks like to the player that it worked as it always did?

I'm not assuming that it would be easy or simple, I'm just asking how come you have such a problem reading old save games and converting them to the new format?

Also another suggestion (which I hope doesn't make anyone angry, again I'm not assuming it will be simple, easy, or quick to make) but why not start working on a rewrite of the engine that fixes the issues outlined here, that will take care of the resolutions and d3d and what not (maybe open-gl support, and backup support in direct draw or whatever).  No change in the editor, but starting with the engine a complete rewrite which would allow 8-bit palletized color all the way up to 32-bit (maybe even some support for 4-bit color [16 color palettes] -- not that it would be native but it could be faked), any resolutions or aspect ratios you might need, etc...  Later you could add other scripting languages too so that programmers versed in whatever you used (say lua) would be able to use AGS?  Again I'm not saying this would be easy, simple, or quick to make, but why not start on that, that works with the existing editor and scripting language.  Would eventually solve a lot of problems and allow a lot more people to use it (maybe you don't want that many more people using it).

Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk or make anyone angry, I'm just curious.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Sun 08/12/2013 13:47:03
Quote from: Uhfgood on Sun 08/12/2013 05:32:31
How come the game can't detect that you have an old save
It sort of can. If contents do not match, it tells user that savedgame is incorrect and stops loading.
But there's no "game version" property, so no way to tell whether this save belongs to different version of same game, or just broken.

Quote from: Uhfgood on Sun 08/12/2013 05:32:31
and convert it appropriately to one that doesn't break the engine, and do it seamlessly so it looks like to the player that it worked as it always did?
From technical side, the biggest problem is the script data. At this moment it is stored as a single large chunk, and there's no way to tell which variables are these, are they same variables as the game expect, or different ones. Therefore engine can only check if the size of data match.
From logical side, there's probably larger problem of "conversion". First of all, it is not engine that should define how to process it, beause it knows nothing on specifics of your game, it's all just random pieces of data for it. It is the game developer that should define conversion rules, meaning there must be appropriate tools for doing so in the Editor, and engine should have means to read and execute these rules.
For example, if you changed the script variables, should removed variables just be lost, or their values copied to new ones? What if some variables have to be initialized somewhere in the midst of the game, but the player already passed that point and their initialization will never be triggered?


Quote from: Uhfgood on Sun 08/12/2013 05:32:31
Also another suggestion (which I hope doesn't make anyone angry, again I'm not assuming it will be simple, easy, or quick to make) but why not start working on a rewrite of the engine that fixes the issues outlined here,
I am tearing between laughing and crying... No, sorry, I can't talk about this... :~(

Here are some links...
The future of AGS (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=44047.0)
The future of AGS Part 2 (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=45149.0)
The future of AGS III - The plan (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=45572.0)

But... I'd advise you to NOT read these. You can get crazy.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Uhfgood on Sun 08/12/2013 16:35:49
Thanks for taking the time to answer, just interested is all.  Considering AGS was started by Mr. Jones in 1997 it's probably long overdue for an overhaul :-)  Not underestimating the amount of work it takes (as I'm a programmer by trade).
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Sun 08/12/2013 16:42:37
Quote from: Uhfgood on Sun 08/12/2013 16:35:49
Thanks for taking the time to answer, just interested is all.  Considering AGS was started by Mr. Jones in 1997 it's probably long overdue for an overhaul :-)  Not underestimating the amount of work it takes (as I'm a programmer by trade).
Well, the answer is really "because no one got enough free time and/or dedication". It is difficult to add anything else to this.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Uhfgood on Mon 09/12/2013 02:51:11
Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Sun 08/12/2013 16:42:37
Quote from: Uhfgood on Sun 08/12/2013 16:35:49
Thanks for taking the time to answer, just interested is all.  Considering AGS was started by Mr. Jones in 1997 it's probably long overdue for an overhaul :-)  Not underestimating the amount of work it takes (as I'm a programmer by trade).
Well, the answer is really "because no one got enough free time and/or dedication". It is difficult to add anything else to this.


Fair enough :-)

BTW I read through each of those threads (sometimes skimming, sometimes not)

A lot of politicing I've gotta say!
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Eric on Mon 09/12/2013 03:17:09
Quote from: Uhfgood on Sun 08/12/2013 16:35:49Considering AGS was started by Mr. Jones in 1997

Off-topic, but thanks for posting this today. Got m'self a free Steam key for The Cat Lady thanks to you!
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: on Mon 17/03/2014 16:19:47
I have a new one to add. If you intend to have your game translated, or even if you don't but still want to go commercial with your AGS game -

DON'T USE SCI FONTS! EVER!!!!

Not for speech, not for mouse pointer text, not for GUI's - get rid of all SCI fonts immediately.

TTF fonts all the way. SCI fonts don't have accented characters (unless you've found a special SCI font that does, please tell me!!).

SCI fonts look good in English, they look good retro - but they are totally useless in the commercial world (especially if you're considering EFIGS). When it comes to translation all your SCI fonts will need to be replaced or the game will need to be programmed to load different fonts when a language is selected, it gets messy - especially if that results in an update for your players - those actions now mean all previous save games are destroyed. The easiest and most sensible thing would be to have never used an SCI font in the first place.

You'll need to figure out anti-aliasing issues for yourself, make it work with TTF, it can be a little tricky...but not impossible. UNLESS of course anyone has any inside info? I remember some talk of ways to create your own SCI fonts or update them. I only have ONE ttf font that works similar to an SCI font (good for low res) and has accented characters, I'd be grateful to know if anyone else has some ttf fonts like that too.

A secondary test is to write some accented words in your game, whether you intend to use them or not, see what your fonts are capable of beyond English. Yes of course this can be all done by a publisher or someone else at a later stage, but for those who really want the look of their game (the fonts create part of that look) to be the same throughout, under all eventualities, may heed these warnings :)

There, that's my tip for the week :P
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Radiant on Mon 17/03/2014 17:21:04
Quote from: Mods on Mon 17/03/2014 16:19:47I only have ONE ttf font that works similar to an SCI font (good for low res) and has accented characters
Please share?
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: StillInThe90s on Mon 17/03/2014 18:26:50
@Mods: Sorry for being slow and ignorant but I didn't quite get all that...
Are the fonts that comes in WFN-files SCI fonts, or something else?
And why is SCI a bad idea when going commercial, if you don't plan on translating?

Anyway, I second Radiants request.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Baron on Tue 18/03/2014 04:28:28
I remember lots of empty or empty-ish slots in Radiant's SCI Font Editor and am now wondering what keys/symbols I'd have to type to trigger them.  Are some of these reserved for accented characters?  Is there a map of what script/symbol/code triggers what slot, outside of the obvious A-Z, a-z, 0-9, and punctuation?  Unless they are actually standard accent codes it's probably not worth the hassle for translations, but it might be handy if you want to add your own accents/symbols without replacing underused punctuation as I've always done (Who ever uses a "tilde" in-game, anyway? ;) )
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Gurok on Tue 18/03/2014 05:50:22
Quote from: Baron on Tue 18/03/2014 04:28:28
(Who ever uses a "tilde" in-game, anyway? ;) )

I don't use it for tilde, but on a US keyboard, I find it cool to map it like so:

Tilde - opening double quote
Backtick - opening single quote
Quote - closing single quote
Double quote - closing double quote

Mods, does this advice still apply if you're using sprite fonts? If so, why?
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Tue 18/03/2014 07:50:43
Quote from: Mods on Mon 17/03/2014 16:19:47SCI fonts don't have accented characters (unless you've found a special SCI font that does, please tell me!!).

WFN fonts can have up to 256 characters (in fact its format supports any number of characters so far as total data size is less than 64 KB, but you won't be able to access the ones beyond 256, because AGS strings are single-byte char strings).
Here's one with accented characters: http://www.file-upload.net/download-7988307/MMM-Fonts-WFN.7z.html
You can also make one with this Editor plugin: http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48527.0


Quote from: StillInThe90s on Mon 17/03/2014 18:26:50
@Mods: Sorry for being slow and ignorant but I didn't quite get all that...
Are the fonts that comes in WFN-files SCI fonts, or something else?
WFN is font format made for AGS. AGS cannot directly use SCI fonts, so Editor converts them to WFN.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Monsieur OUXX on Tue 18/03/2014 17:25:08
Quote from: Mods on Mon 17/03/2014 16:19:47

TTF fonts all the way. SCI fonts don't have accented characters (unless you've found a special SCI font that does, please tell me!!).

(...)

You'll need to figure out anti-aliasing issues for yourself, make it work with TTF, it can be a little tricky...but not impossible. UNLESS of course anyone has any inside info?

I have compiled all useful info about fonts into this : http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/wiki/Fonts
Most issues are on the verge of being resolved, with the new "fake SCI" fonts type (and its twin brother, the WFN type), that introduces 256 char instead of 128, and work with AGS 3.3.x or higher -- and Rulaman's tools to manipulate them.
One could argue that 256 chars is still obsolete technology, but it's good enough for most international apps.
The article also address anti-aliasing issues with TTF fonts.

I recommend everyone reads the final part (the 4 possible font strategies), it's very instructive, even for AGS veterans.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Tue 18/03/2014 17:38:11
I don't like the "fake WFN" term. There's nothing fake in it. The format is all the same (really) it's just that AGS was told to calculate actual number of chars based on available data rather than use "128" constant.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Monsieur OUXX on Tue 18/03/2014 17:57:13
Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Tue 18/03/2014 17:38:11
I don't like the "fake WFN" term. There's nothing fake in it. The format is all the same (really) it's just that AGS was told to calculate actual number of chars based on available data rather than use "128" constant.

Well OK, but 256-chars WFN fonts are mostly converted from "fake SCI" fonts (and I believe those do exist, as opposed to genuine 128-char SCI). That's how it was introduced to me originally by the few-who-knew. At the time (only 6 months ago!), there was no reference document to clarify anything, so I assumed a lot :D

I'll correct the term in the wiki page. This will all become part of the past, with native 256-char support.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: StillInThe90s on Wed 19/03/2014 00:30:17
Thanks Crimson.
I still don't get why SCI would be bad practice in english only games, though.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: on Wed 19/03/2014 17:31:12
They wouldn't, and didn't say it's a problem for English only games. It's the making a (commercial) game under the pretense it'll only ever be "English only" that's more "the problem". However, it's probably mostly applicable if you have some idea that you'd like to see your game in one/all of the euro languages at a later date. Also the fact that if you DO need to do a font overhaul, old save games will be defunct, and no customers particularly enjoy that notion. That issue may have been addressed in more recent versions of AGS than 3.2.1 I'm not sure. But to think you just 'import a font' and that's it as far as fonts and your game are concerned is naive, especially if you're going commercial and want to please some european players. I'm no good at remembering to make sure of this either, but hope to from now on. Make a good AGS game and it will likely be sought after in a translated format, to at least one additional language :)

Now, if AGS could have a "Make my game Russian" button - that'd be very useful!!
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: StillInThe90s on Thu 20/03/2014 18:53:42
Ah. I thought maybe there was some technical issue that I didn't get.
Thanks Mods.

Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: abstauber on Mon 24/03/2014 06:58:47
Is 32-bit really the way to go? It seems to be a little overkill as I hardly use more than 32 colors at the moment.
Once upon a time, 32bit was the "evil" setting in AGS, that caused massive slowdowns and gave you merely nothing in return.
Title: Re: Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues
Post by: Andail on Sun 30/03/2014 20:09:23
In addition to Mark's notes about fonts, here's a related one: Avoid image-based texts like the plague! This is a rather obvious rule of thumb, but I was totally oblivious to the side effects. The problem, of course, is that those images (e.g. close ups of items with words written on them) will have to be re-painted for every language and programmed to appear in the right place. So, stick to overlays and labels as much as possible!