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Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: BarbWire on Sun 30/08/2020 14:20:33

Title: Where is everybody
Post by: BarbWire on Sun 30/08/2020 14:20:33
Hi whoever may be here

Is it just me or is the footfall on AGS slowing to a trickle,
resembling a western street at high noon.

Certain people do post quite regularly, but others seem
to have vanished completely.

I realise, of course, that circumstances change and the
longer serving members have other commitments that
take priority.

Also, there are some fantastic games scheduled for 2021
which will keep their writing teams occupied for the next
few months.

It would be nice to see games discussed more (After all this
is what AGS was designed for) rather than time being taken
up playing guessing games etc.

Please don't take offence at anything I've written, and if you
don't like anything I've said just ignore me.






Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Mandle on Sun 30/08/2020 23:58:59
Quote from: BarbWire on Sun 30/08/2020 14:20:33
It would be nice to see games discussed more rather than time being taken
up playing games

(laugh) (laugh) (laugh)

(Yes, I paraphrased it without permission for "comedic" effect.)

I have also noticed less and less posting by long-time members but know the reasons in some cases: Yes, new life commitments, commitments to ongoing full game projects, etc.

Perhaps you should start a new thread kicking off the kind of game discussion you would like to read and participate in, or revive one of the older threads?

Not being snarky here. It's a serious suggestion.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Lantern Bearer on Mon 31/08/2020 01:02:15
Maybe everyone's been cooped up for too long and have gone outdoors, the end of summer's fleeting especially given the past few months quarantined. I think the forum will come back in time but for now I'd like to believe everyone's out somewhere enjoying themselves before the long, dark days of winter arrive again.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: BarbWire on Mon 31/08/2020 12:34:28

Hi Mandle

I like your suggestion and will give this some thought.

What I find strange is that some games receive rave
reviews, when they first appear in the Completed Games
Announcements, but these very quickly fizzle out.

Nobody writes any follow ups, after playing the game,
reporting on likes, dislikes, what could be improved etc.

It would be nice if the gaming community provided enough
Player Ratings (Yellow cups) so that AGS Panel Ratings (Blue cups)
can then be awarded.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: BarbWire on Mon 31/08/2020 12:40:57

Hi Lantern Bearer

To be honest I think even less people were on AGS while
being cooped up. I would have thought gaming was the
ideal way to pass the time. I suppose they were too busy
exercising, baking or uploading videos to Tik Tok.  :)

Now that they can get out, and in many cases return to
work, maybe they will start to play games again, for
relaxation.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Pogwizd on Mon 31/08/2020 13:42:13
Quote from: BarbWire on Mon 31/08/2020 12:34:28
What I find strange is that some games receive rave
reviews, when they first appear in the Completed Games
Announcements, but these very quickly fizzle out.

Nobody writes any follow ups, after playing the game,
reporting on likes, dislikes, what could be improved etc.

I often play AGS games long after they were released when they already are on the second (or further) page of the forum. So when that happens I don't really want to bump the topic back to the top. But that's me.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: heltenjon on Mon 31/08/2020 14:06:18
Quote from: Pogwizd on Mon 31/08/2020 13:42:13
Quote from: BarbWire on Mon 31/08/2020 12:34:28
What I find strange is that some games receive rave
reviews, when they first appear in the Completed Games
Announcements, but these very quickly fizzle out.

Nobody writes any follow ups, after playing the game,
reporting on likes, dislikes, what could be improved etc.

I often play AGS games long after they were released when they already are on the second (or further) page of the forum. So when that happens I don't really want to bump the topic back to the top. But that's me.

I second that, but I get that the developers wants the feedback, so perhaps we shouldn't be afraid to bump it. I tend to stay away from the threads concerning games until after I've played them for spoiler reasons. And if I'm a beta tester or proofreader, I don't really feel it's my place to give a rave review on the site - but maybe I'm being too cautious.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: BarbWire on Mon 31/08/2020 14:51:01

Hi Pogwizd

Surely it doesn't hurt to bump games to the top,
if you think they are worthy.

That way the game won't be missed by people
who probably just glance at the first page.  :)
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: BarbWire on Mon 31/08/2020 14:58:26

Hi Heltenjon

It doesn't hurt to bump. It just shows that the game
deserves to be played.

I agree that developers welcome feedback, and it doesn't
always have to be positive. Constructive criticism is fine,too

There may be something that doesn't work as it should, or
some other error that nobody else has noticed. These can
only be fixed if the developer is aware of them.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Darth Mandarb on Mon 31/08/2020 15:38:51
Quote from: BarbWire on Mon 31/08/2020 14:51:01Surely it doesn't hurt to bump games to the top,
if you think they are worthy.

That way the game won't be missed by people
who probably just glance at the first page.  :)

Umm...

Quote from: Games in Production Forum RulesDO NOT dig up old threads!!
If you're interested in an old thread* about a project don't post asking about the progress.  Send a PM to the game's author.  If the project has been cancelled and/or abandoned there's no point in bumping the thread!

I don't think there's any rule about "necro" posting in the Completed Games forum though (if that's what was meant)?

Though I've been considering loosening that restriction a bit because I too have noticed the severe decline in forum participation (I remember times, years ago, when I would login and the "users online" area would be HUGE... now it's rare to see maybe 5 others online).

I worry that the AGS forums have become too... elitist. Too stringent. Too unfriendly and new users are put-off by it. I have seen so many times where a new user posts an honest (innocent) question that has, admittedly, been asked countless times and they get hammered down for daring to ask! Or a slight rule violation brings down the wrath of the community! A little on-the-nose coming from me (for my strict enforcement of the GIP rules) but I've loosened up a LOT in recent years. We want to expand our beloved community. Not chase people off with draconian rules and attitudes. A few years ago I had a conversation with somebody (I think it was on pixeljoint) and they specifically mentioned they love AGS (the program) but can't stand the attitudes of the community.

I also think it's possible that because programs like Unity, Game Maker, Godot, etc have done a better job staying modernized (while maintaining the ability to be "retro") and work on modern platforms (Android, iOS, etc) while AGS still really only works on PCs. People want their games to be seen by a lot of people and the PC gaming market isn't what it even just 10 years ago.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: BarbWire on Mon 31/08/2020 16:29:42

What an honour! Lil ol' me being addressed by Darth Mandarb.  :)

I wasn't really refering to necro posting, more to games that have slid
from top placing, but are still deserving of comments.

The reason I started the discussion was mainly because of the apparent
lack of interest in the platform. As you rightly say there are times when
there can be a handful of people posting.

On the whole I think the community is friendly. However, there is the
odd occasion when a comment might cause unintentional offence.

It is true that after spending, sometimes years, producing a game
the developers want it to be seen , but apart from Gamejolt and Itch I.O
there are no other sites to upload to. There is such a large turnover on
these sites that a game can vanish in the blink of an eye.

As far as I'm concerned the PC will always be the prefered platform for
serious gamers, and AGS rules.  :-D
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Laura Hunt on Mon 31/08/2020 16:37:32
Another issue I see is that there are very few people who bother replying to technical/scripting questions. These days it's mostly Crimson Wizard, Khris and Cassiebsg, with sometimes Snarky or morganw popping in. I try to give as much as I can back to the community and I've managed to help quite a few new users with basic questions, but my knowledge is still very limited. I fear that the day a couple of these people say "fuck this, I'm out", AGS will be truly and definitely dead :(
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Adeel on Mon 31/08/2020 17:26:11
Thanks for asking the tough question, BarbWire.

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Mon 31/08/2020 15:38:51
Spoiler
I worry that the AGS forums have become too... elitist. Too stringent. Too unfriendly and new users are put-off by it. I have seen so many times where a new user posts an honest (innocent) question that has, admittedly, been asked countless times and they get hammered down for daring to ask! Or a slight rule violation brings down the wrath of the community! A little on-the-nose coming from me (for my strict enforcement of the GIP rules) but I've loosened up a LOT in recent years. We want to expand our beloved community. Not chase people off with draconian rules and attitudes. A few years ago I had a conversation with somebody (I think it was on pixeljoint) and they specifically mentioned they love AGS (the program) but can't stand the attitudes of the community.
[close]

This. This is the exact reason why I've been put off with this community.

We've got an infamous member who, in the name of "helping the beginner", likes to pound on the noob and tear him to shreds. If it really bothers him, why doesn't he let others answer the questions and let it be? Because he can't let go of his "kingdom", of course. Apparently no mod has been willing to tell him to tone down his toxic behavior or sod off. Many users have complained about this, but their complaints went unheeded.

Then we have users (especially a certain mod) who really love to jump down the throat of anyone who dares to post even a slightly differing opinion. This very vocal (and very hostile) minority has chased off even the longtime members from this community. Well done, guys. Now y'all can happily live in your echo chamber.

The forums have been in decline for a long time, but nobody wants to admit that. Those old-timers who have remained are unwilling to change. It seems they've resorted to let the community go to waste.

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Mon 31/08/2020 15:38:51
Spoiler

I also think it's possible that because programs like Unity, Game Maker, Godot, etc have done a better job staying modernized (while maintaining the ability to be "retro") and work on modern platforms (Android, iOS, etc) while AGS still really only works on PCs. People want their games to be seen by a lot of people and the PC gaming market isn't what it even just 10 years ago.
[close]
Yes. This is definitely the reason why many AGS Devs have moved on to other game engines. AGS just doesn't cut it anymore, unfortunately. I know at least one dev who moved on to another engine because he didn't want to fight with the AGS engine to make it compatible with other platforms, especially when the other game engines support multi-platform out of the box. Kudos to those who make AGS work on other platforms, but not everyone has enough resources or programming aptitude to do it.

As much as I love PC and PC Gaming, the reality is that most of the people would rather play games on other platforms, if possible. And point-and-click adventure games tend to lend themselves quite well to "point (your finger)-and-touch" on mobile devices. Mobile gaming is a big market that can't be ignored.

I love and respect all the hard work that Crimson Wizard and others have done to build and maintain AGS, but it seems like they're fighting a losing battle. Unless AGS radically changes, it will continue to lose out.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: milkanannan on Mon 31/08/2020 18:38:17
I think we have to admit that we are an ageing community of people that share a hobby whose glory days were 25 years ago. Point and click hasn't really been anywhere near the mainstream since then, so we're pretty niche. Perhaps updating AGS to tap functionality would attract a new generation of adventure game makers, but my guess is this isn't actually what the core of this community wants. (I don't mean to speak for anyone else, but this is what it looks like to me.)
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Khris on Mon 31/08/2020 19:04:11
Quote from: Adeel on Mon 31/08/2020 17:26:11We've got an infamous member who, in the name of "helping the beginner", likes to pound on the noob and tear him to shreds. If it really bothers him, why doesn't he let others answer the questions and let it be? Because he can't let go of his "kingdom", of course. Apparently no mod has been willing to tell him to tone down his toxic behavior or sod off. Many users have complained about this, but their complaints went unheeded.

Can you show a specific example of this?
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Mandle on Tue 01/09/2020 01:08:57
168 Guests, 6 Users (0 Buddies)

Most Online Today: 175. Most Online Ever: 823 (08 Jul 2020, 09:37)

So yeah, there are tons of people who are here as casual viewers, probably mostly looking for answers to technical issues for their AGS projects, but not members or not logged in.

I was surprised to see that Most Ever Online was July of this year.

I think this shows that interest in the engine itself is not shrinking, but interest in participating in these forums is.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: newwaveburritos on Tue 01/09/2020 01:50:21
I'm very new here and I've definitely spent a lot more time reading the forum than posting or interacting.  Most of the questions I've had been answered already.  The community here has been pretty great in terms of answering questions but I think part of what you're saying is that this place shouldn't just be a place where people's technical questions get qanswered so who knows?  I get what you mean about the snobbery but it didn't dissuade me at all.  But nobody wants fifteen people asking everyday wanting to get spoonfed  from the manual.  Although I suppose that might be better than the alternative where people abandon AGS altogether.  I don't think that's in danger of happening.  It's still get a huge support system that made me feel comfortable in picking it.

Personally, though I don't really post in as many internet forums across the board as I used to so I don't necessarily think it's just this place.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Click'd on Tue 01/09/2020 02:30:24
Well, BarbWire...

Your first post was over a year after you registered, and then there are month-long breaks, once for over a year yet again. I'm not saying this to attack you but for perspective.

What do you even want to have discussed more about games? Dissecting every last bit of released, or leaked (, or rumored) information won't help anyone. At least in my case that would be really tiring instead. I tend to stay away from hypes so I don't already feel like I have seen everything the moment the game comes out.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: LimpingFish on Tue 01/09/2020 02:52:53
Hmm. A lot to take in.

To be honest, people equating the perceived lack of forum activity with some (largely imagined) upswing in heavy-handed moderation, are...wrong? I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. The most high-profile moderation interventions of recent times largely concern actual violations in forum policy, or were attempts by the moderators to introduce updated rules to address these changing times.

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Mon 31/08/2020 15:38:51
I worry that the AGS forums have become too... elitist. Too stringent...Too unfriendly and new users are put-off by it. Or a slight rule violation brings down the wrath of the community!....We want to expand our beloved community. Not chase people off with draconian rules and attitudes.

Hi, Darth. As we've discussed in the past, I know you largely consider the hazards of an"open" forum as a necessary evil within a vital community, but could you elaborate on these points? Especially in regards to "unfriendly".

Quote from: Adeel on Mon 31/08/2020 17:26:11
Then we have users (especially a certain mod) who really love to jump down the throat of anyone who dares to post even a slightly differing opinion. This very vocal (and very hostile) minority has chased off even the longtime members from this community. Well done, guys. Now y'all can happily live in your echo chamber.

Uh...wut? That's a pretty bold claim. I presume you have multiple examples and proof to back-up your argument?

People seem to be throwing nebulous descriptions like "hostile", "snobbery", and "draconian" around as though they're largely accepted as accurately representing how the community is run. You're welcome to your opinions, of course, but if all you've got to go on is, for instance, our unwillingness to tolerate anti-trans rhetoric, or our desire to limit the spread of conspiracy theories or "alternative facts", then maybe the problem isn't as rampant as you think.

Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Retro Wolf on Tue 01/09/2020 07:45:54
I've always tended to post little, I've been a member since 2009 and only made over a thousand posts, compared to other members that is not a lot. I tend to check the forum daily though.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Scavenger on Tue 01/09/2020 09:20:55
I'm still here, I'm just not working on any AGS games right at this moment, I decided to take a break to write Sega Genesis games instead for a while to beef up my knowledge of C.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Hobo on Tue 01/09/2020 11:19:27
Haven't some of the discussions moved over to Discord? Either to the AGS one or developers own channels, also I think there are several other smaller Discord channels that have a bunch of AGS people. And I guess social media has taken over some of the traffic over the years. Smaller forums seem to be more like notice boards these days rather than places for socialising or big discussions.

But I wouldn't really draw a direct line between the forum activity and AGS engine usage/quality. I feel like thsese last few years have been one of the best in terms of great AGS games, both commercial and free.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: BarbWire on Tue 01/09/2020 12:13:14
Whoa! Who would have thought that asking a perfectly simple
question, would result in the discussion getting a bit heated in
places. 8-0

Also, I was wondering if people play a game that may involve
puzzle solving, quest solving etc. and get stuck, do they
give up on the game rather than suggesting to the devs
that perhaps a SKIP button could be added.

As I have already said, I love being a member of the AGS
community. Some brilliant games are being produced, and
I would hate to think that I could play a part in its downfall.  :(

Click'd, you are quite right, it did take a while for me to start
posting, because I didn't think people would find anything I had
to say very interesting.

I did, however, play several games and leave comments for a
Player Rating, so that a yellow (or is it orange?) cup could be
obtained, thereby resulting in a much deserved, Blue Cup.

Long may AGS continue to bring pleasure to the masses.  ;-D
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Darth Mandarb on Tue 01/09/2020 15:45:53
Quote from: LimpingFish on Tue 01/09/2020 02:52:53Hi, Darth. As we've discussed in the past, I know you largely consider the hazards of an"open" forum as a necessary evil within a vital community, but could you elaborate on these points? Especially in regards to "unfriendly".

I have noticed unfriendly behavior in the treatment of new members (as I mentioned in my previous post) as well as general unfriendliness towards any member who holds views that don't align with the broader views of forum goers. There's a general sense of suppressing unpopular opinions. Almost no effort is made to engage in civil discourse they are just brow-beaten into silence. No room for discussion or understanding.

We aren't quite an echo chamber here yet but I see it looming on the horizon.

Now I'm not defending the right to sing the praises of national socialism and the Nazis I'm more condemning the self-righteous attitudes and, equally abhorrent, behavior exhibited in response to it! There's a sense of it being acceptable (even noble) to exhibit the very behavior you're condemning so long as the thing you're condemning is generally considered to be "bad".

Maybe I'm just overly sensitive? Maybe I'm biased? I am always willing to have my mind changed on the matter but, so far, I've only seen more and more of the same. The end result is an old-time member who rarely engages with the community and only, really, comes around to check on the GIP.

Makes me sad.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Adeel on Tue 01/09/2020 16:08:43
Quote from: LimpingFish on Tue 01/09/2020 02:52:53
People seem to be throwing nebulous descriptions like "hostile", "snobbery", and "draconian" around as though they're largely accepted as accurately representing how the community is run. You're welcome to your opinions, of course, but if all you've got to go on is, for instance, our unwillingness to tolerate anti-trans rhetoric, or our desire to limit the spread of conspiracy theories or "alternative facts", then maybe the problem isn't as rampant as you think.
Way to go, LimpingFish. Nice of you to paint all the users' grievances as "they won't let me write anti-trans rhetoric or alternative facts". Very nice tactic.

Sorry, but if you guys have already made up your mind that everything is fine and dandy, who am I to change that? You all ask for examples, yet you all seem to have conveniently forgotten the several-pages' long threads over the past years. Nothing ever came out of those. Why would I waste my time digging them up and linking here when nothing is gonna happen now?
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: eri0o on Tue 01/09/2020 16:27:23
There have been some conversations here on the forums that made me uncomfortable. This combined with a misunderstanding that happened on discord cemented that I need to take a break. I am though progressing on my game a lot more and will have my first batch of testers playing it in two weeks.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Stupot on Tue 01/09/2020 16:43:03
Let’s not forget that we’re communicating in a very out-dated mode of messsging where the page resets every time you post. I mean, it’s amazing we get any newcomers at all, let alone new regulars.

And the old regulars stop coming for all sorts of reasons. Family, work, life. Others like Grudislav still pop their heads in from time to time but they’re actually making a career out of it and no longer have time for foruming.

Also, this is a rather left-wing place and has not been a very hospitable environment for people with views to the right of that, so we’ve lost a few members that way. Personally, I think there should be one separate board for socio-political discussions and arguments. Let them get as heated as they go but just ban it from everywhere else on the forum (especially MAGS), unless it really is genuinely relevant to that topic.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: eri0o on Tue 01/09/2020 16:52:59
I don't think this place is left wing at all. There's also a lot of anti-science that is bundled together with anti-knowledge. Want to run a successful game company? Well, this is not the community to get any useful input because the ones with no idea bullied out the people who could provide insight or guidance. Mentorship is out of question.

If anyone can reach a local community it will probably will be much more useful.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: ToeKnee on Tue 01/09/2020 17:41:43
I love the goldmine of these forums!!... and I suspect I am like many, that read them over and over...
If you need help there's pretty much every question you may have will have answers, many answers some times, before (often in various ways until the solution lands with the poster)!!
So 'help' may often not be needed... when you consider that the forums are so extensive = possible reasons that there are lots of views but less chatter in the Forum/s as a percentage of the viewing rate.

Also, I have been reading items for nearly 20 years! but only recently (re)joined since changing providers on my old Email address left me out for many years.
I am happy to still be classified as a newbie though and in that context - I must say I haven't seen anything I would call alarming about the behavior or responses in these forums and I have read many thousands of posts and their replies...

There does seem to be a somewhat 'tentative' approach to an open / flowing forum dialog so I wonder if front ending conversations with 'I THINK' or use the word 'CONSIDER' etc... de-personalises it? Plus, if you are the questioner then its always a great idea to thank the post respondents.... Their time and effort and often CODE writing for the Original Poster must be given thanks.
- The skills and the sharing that some of the 'AGS Rockstars' do is commendable and wonderful.

I am about to release a (COVID19 lockdown timeframe) created game with a new slant on old Adventure gaming style I am really interested in all feedback on - and I will say I think I can take tough talk about things that should be obvious that I have missed etc (feedback re-worded as 'offerings' is a good idea!).... however it is always nice if people post with a context of care and support!
This group is AMAZING!
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Ali on Tue 01/09/2020 17:45:19
I think it's weird for BarbWire to lament the decline of the forum, while recently being really unwelcoming to a new member making an honest mistake (https://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=58335.msg636624898#msg636624898). But I don't think that's new. Helm wasn't particularly nice to me when I joined. What I have noticed in the last years is increasing prevalence of conspiracy theories with a sprinkling of ethno-nationalism. But I think efforts to tackle that make the forum more, rather than less welcoming. I still think the tech support is faster and more helpful than any other site I've visited.

But, if we're being honest, the forums are less busy because they are forums dedicated to a 2D game engine that specialises in adventure games.

Quote from: eri0o on Tue 01/09/2020 16:52:59
Want to run a successful game company? Well, this is not the community to get any useful input because the ones with no idea bullied out the people who could provide insight or guidance. Mentorship is out of question.

Perhaps I missed this? Who's been bullied out?
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: VampireWombat on Tue 01/09/2020 18:06:25
I personally have been using Discord to communicate with people more than the forums the last few months. And I admit, I also have been moving away from using AGS. Ironically it did start with 3D donut posts in the AGS Discord. I do still check the forums multiple times a day, but I have stopped posting as much...

As for the bullying of Anna that Ali mentioned, I don't think she took it took it too hard. I joined the Kapia Discord a couple of weeks ago and joked about how badly things went. Though I do doubt she'll likely be a regular around here. Which is a shame since she is pretty nice.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Radiant on Tue 01/09/2020 18:39:12
Quote from: Ali on Tue 01/09/2020 17:45:19What I have noticed in the last years is increasing prevalence of conspiracy theories with a sprinkling of ethno-nationalism.
That's precisely why I don't stick around. I have not personally witnessed the efforts to "tackle" that, but such topics are flat-out prohibited in certain other forums I frequent.

(although I do check the competitions forum monthly, to see the new MAGS rules on the off chance that I have time for a MAGS; and I have an adventure game in the plans that I want to work on this year)
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Snarky on Tue 01/09/2020 19:05:40
Quote from: Ali on Tue 01/09/2020 17:45:19
I think it's weird for BarbWire to lament the decline of the forum, while recently being really unwelcoming to a new member making an honest mistake (https://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=58335.msg636624898#msg636624898).

Reading that thread, it seemed to me like a joke that didn't come off. But in that case, the decent thing to do would have been to explain once it became clear that it was being taken seriously.

Quote from: eri0o on Tue 01/09/2020 16:52:59
Want to run a successful game company? Well, this is not the community to get any useful input because the ones with no idea bullied out the people who could provide insight or guidance. Mentorship is out of question.

I can only imagine that this is in reference to m0ds? Interesting take, if so. (Otherwise I have no clue what this could be about.)

Quote from: Radiant on Tue 01/09/2020 18:39:12
Quote from: Ali on Tue 01/09/2020 17:45:19What I have noticed in the last years is increasing prevalence of conspiracy theories with a sprinkling of ethno-nationalism.
That's precisely why I don't stick around. I have not personally witnessed the efforts to "tackle" that, but such topics are flat-out prohibited in certain other forums I frequent.

Promotion of conspiracy theories associated with fringe or extremist movements is lately prohibited on these forums as well. And yes, this does probably drive some members away.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Ali on Tue 01/09/2020 19:24:29
Quote from: Snarky on Tue 01/09/2020 19:05:40
Quote from: Ali on Tue 01/09/2020 17:45:19
I think it's weird for BarbWire to lament the decline of the forum, while recently being really unwelcoming to a new member making an honest mistake (https://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=58335.msg636624898#msg636624898).

Reading that thread, it seemed to me like a joke that didn't come off. But in that case, the decent thing to do would have been to explain once it became clear that it was being taken seriously.

Yeah, I was uncertain and the lack of an explanation threw me. I hope it was a joke!

I'm not sure it's fair to say that m0ds was bullied out, bearing in mind the bullying behaviour he exhibited before he left. I take no pleasure in criticising m0ds, but I do think it was he who changed and not everybody else.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: BarbWire on Tue 01/09/2020 19:27:41

I really have opened a can of worms here, and I don't like it.
The atmosphere is becoming toxic. Recriminations and grievances abound.
I can't see how any of this has any bearing on my initial post.

Ali, thank you so much for directing people to the remarks I made about
the Anna2for2 post. I did not do this maliciously, but had read Darth Mandarbs
comment, saying 'I'm guessing this isn't being developed with AGS. I thought
it unfair that games not made using the AGS engine should be showcased on
the site. I still don't think it should be allowed. Everybody is entitled to an
opinion and this is mine.

Vampire Wombat, You have a strange idea as to what qualifies as bullying.
I doubt that Anna has been scarred for life by my remarks and appreciated
the fact that Laura took her side. As you say she is probably a very nice person
and I wish her well.

I am now bowing out. Thank you and goodnight  :)


Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Ali on Tue 01/09/2020 19:40:53
I'm sorry if I offended you by remembering something you wrote a month ago that was relevant.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Khris on Tue 01/09/2020 19:55:02
That post (https://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=58335.msg636624889#msg636624889) was really something, and the fact that it wasn't a joke makes it even worse.
Just wanted to second that (and everything else Ali has said), especially since I've been called out in an extremely dishonest and cowardly way by Adeel.

edit: I'm reading this (https://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=58391.msg636625887#msg636625887) as confirmation that it wasn't a joke
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Cassiebsg on Tue 01/09/2020 19:58:58
Uhm, I took it as a joke too... you saying it wasn't?  8-0
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: RetroJay on Tue 01/09/2020 20:45:09
Quite Frankly... Who cares!
For a simple question that has turned into this crap is bollocks.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Snarky on Tue 01/09/2020 20:55:22
Happy Festivus!

(https://twobirds.ignotainment.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2019/12/e5b20e35ea5fd804c8a5d079b876e7865c9802f8.jpeg)
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Darth Mandarb on Tue 01/09/2020 22:38:52
So any forum members who have concerns about the state of things around here are a joke and should be made fun of?

We feel this is acceptable behavior?

Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Snarky on Tue 01/09/2020 22:56:30
I wasn't making fun of any forum members or their concerns, but joking about the general tenor of the thread, after multiple posters (including the thread starter) complained that it had deteriorated into a general airing of grievances. If you think that's "unacceptable behavior" I guess we have another one to add to the list.

I would also say that the thread has indirectly answered the original question: one reason why there's less activity here is that many of the forum regulars simply don't get along with each other.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Darth Mandarb on Wed 02/09/2020 00:28:38
I get what you're saying. You feel that you can't get along with some forum members and that you meant no insult with the festivus image.

Can you see how your response (w/ the image) could be interpreted as insulting and/or dismissive though?

Even if it wasn't your intent can you at least acknowledge the possibility that some might see it as such regardless of how sure you are that they should have seen it your way?
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: LimpingFish on Wed 02/09/2020 00:34:09
Quote from: Adeel on Tue 01/09/2020 16:08:43
Way to go, LimpingFish. Nice of you to paint all the users' grievances as "they won't let me write anti-trans rhetoric or alternative facts". Very nice tactic.

Then please, air your particular grievance. This is the first I've heard of your apparent upset with your experience here, and, despite what you may think, I'm more that happy to discuss it in a friendly manner. :)

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Tue 01/09/2020 15:45:53
I have noticed unfriendly behavior in the treatment of new members (as I mentioned in my previous post) as well as general unfriendliness towards any member who holds views that don't align with the broader views of forum goers. There's a general sense of suppressing unpopular opinions. Almost no effort is made to engage in civil discourse they are just brow-beaten into silence. No room for discussion or understanding.

Thanks for replying. I agree totally with you that aggressive behavior towards new members is unacceptable. Having said that, I honestly don't believe many of the subjects I've moderated to be open to debate in a way that would please both parties. I've moderated everything from Recruitment and CGA thread violations, spam, and bots, to the posting of bigoted views regarding race and gender. I've also moderated conspiracy theory threads and the posting of blatant false COVID-19 information. In the cases of run-the-mill thread violations, I've engaged with the users in question, as these situations can usually be rectified. But when it comes to bigotry and the spread of misinformation, I honestly don't consider there to be two sides to the argument. I don't believe I've ever become aggressive, though, as I'm not a fan of confrontation.

But if the argument is that when somebody posts a controversial opinion or view, and offended people post in a aggressively towards them, that moderators should step in and reprimand these offended users, then I'd be open to discussing that. I don't personally like it when someone shouts "Nazi!" or tells someone to fuck off, as I feel that it brings nothing to the situation except more antagonism.

Quote from: Ali on Tue 01/09/2020 17:45:19
Perhaps I missed this? Who's been bullied out?

Beats me. Apparently someone has. As you said, the only name that's been mentioned is m0ds. Personally, I liked m0ds, having met him a couple of times in IRL. But he seemed to become very disillusioned with how people viewed AGS in general (not simply how the forums were being run), and while some heated debates took place, I too can't say he was bullied out. As far as I could see from any posts he made, he chose to leave.

Again, a number of people in this thread are equating the disappearance of longtime members with how the forums are run, or due to an upswing in "leftist" moderation, as some open secret. To that I say...

Spoiler
(https://frinkiac.com/meme/S07E23/268083.jpg?b64lines=IFRoYXQncyBzcGVjaW91cwogcmVhc29uaW5nLCBEYWQu)
[close]

Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Stupot on Wed 02/09/2020 01:52:43
The irony of it all is that this is a thread asking ‘Where is everybody?’ and suddenly, loads of AGSers have come out to comment on it. So everybody is obviously still here. But instead of commenting with pleasantries and suggestions of ways to boost forum participation, we’ve descended into bickering. I think that answers the question.

Let’s start by changing the tone of this thread.

Quick, somebody start a Bake Sale (https://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=44684.msg597106#msg597106), or a chain story (https://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=41138.msg544208#msg544208) or a workshop (https://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=34542.0), or another Swarm Game (https://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=43700.msg581536#msg581536)
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Jack on Wed 02/09/2020 02:48:27
Quote from: eri0o on Tue 01/09/2020 16:52:59
I don't think this place is left wing at all.

Gotta disagree with this. Left wing is the norm in society, and this place is further left than that, ending up on the extreme left. An example would be against forum rules, but suffice it to say that if some people have convinced themselves that black is white, you'd be called a monster for disagreeing with them. This would be because you have offended someone and their sacred beliefs. Images are conjured up of people with extremely fragile psyches who would be harmed by someone disagreeing with them. And the statistics do seem to support this, but most of these fatal incidents happen on zebra crossings. (<-- That was a joke). Censorship and an intolerance for differing views characterises the extreme ideology.

Anyway, I don't think this is exactly the fragility that causes reduced forum participation. Others have correctly stated the main reasons: The forum itself is an older format (which is actually a good thing), the engine has gone from being one of few to one of many, it's for a niche genre. The reduced participation I have a problem with is when people I like stop posting. Some people I don't like have stopped posting for the same reason. They do this because of a very bad habit that people in the west have: When we encounter something that we really don't like, even if it's attached to something we really do like, our impulse is to throw up our hands in disgust and walk away. We do this with everything, and it has cost us the civility and prosperity of all of our countries, because we do not participate in our governments.

Take this advice from a South African whose nation's history clearly illustrates this lesson: Running away solves nothing. You can keep moving, you can trek across an ocean and then a continent in search of peace, but eventually they find you where you live and they claim that for England too.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Reiter on Wed 02/09/2020 03:36:14
Well, now... An interesting question.

  Part of it, of course, is that forums are decidedly 'old-hat' today. They do not generate the sort of involvement and traffic that they used to. If it is not a social media entity or at the very least available on Reddit, it seems it is simply not on 'the radar' any more.
A shame, I think, since I rather detest what social media has become, and prefer the simplicity of a good old-fashioned forum such as this before Discord, although I cannot deny its utility. Nonetheless, I think that the age of the little forum is not yet over, and we must remember that the sort of person that would appreciate the sort of games that AGS is chiefly built to provide may also be the sort of person that would not object to using an old-fashioned forum.
Of course, every site and community must some day face that the big days are over, and settle for being smaller than it was. I think, however, that it is possible to keep the lights on regardless.

  Another part of it is the particular niche-ness of our niche. In a world of free or at least reasonably priced game making software, AGS is an oddity. While you can do all sorts of things with AGS if you can imagine how, it is chiefly meant for a very specific sort of game; an old-fashioned two-dimensional point-and-click adventure game. A genre that is both a small niche and a rather limited gameplay medium.

But! Let us not sell AGS short! It is an extraordinarily useful little tool, tirelessly improved and documented by skilled and dedicated enthusiasts.
It is very robust in its simplicity, for while it cannot do much besides its purpose, it does it very well. The fact that a dunderhead like myself can make heads-or-tails out of it speaks for itself. All you need to get started is AGS and Microsoft Paint. While I hope to learn and 'advance' to other engines (such as Godot) to explore other genres, the simplicity of AGS will always ensure its place. I am quite sure other AGS novices would agree.
It must be noted that the platform limitation is a reason as to why AGS will likely become a pure hobbyist tool, rather than a versatile professional adventure game maker. There will, of course, be exceptions, but I fear that it will simply not be able to keep its place as a competitive development kit. Still, I think it and the community can thrive.
We are chiefly amateurs. We work out of love. This matters, ladies and gentlemen. A small fish in a vast pond can be none the less scintillating. A sudden 'mass' appeal and usage of AGS is as likely as us all receiving knighthoods, but I do think that people will keep discovering it and using it, particularly if they are helped along the way. A certain shyness is an inevitable aspect of any community, but it can be overcome.

  However, I must make a note of the general atmosphere, as discussed previously. It is in decline, and that is no doubt another reason why there is a particular slump in community life at the moment.
It cannot be denied that there are some tensions and disagreements here, and although I am not long enough in the tooth to truly tell if it has gotten 'worse', I must say that it s e e m s so. Or rather, tempers fray more easily, and the disagreements turn sharper and nastier.

This is a small club. We cannot help but to tread on each other's corns now and then. It is always like that in any community. However, I fear that the present environment means that disagreements are easily taken too far, and ties cut too readily, and animosities established. Things get uglier than they need to.

Now, a v e r y important point to consider: The rather unpleasant atmosphere that has developed here is not just an AGS community difficulty. This is very important to remember. It is not a problem specific to us, here. It is everywhere. All across the dataweb, and in ordinary company. It is a vast phenomenon, at present, and it is reflected here, as anywhere.

It is as it is, this pervading atmosphere at the moment. Quarrelsome and tense. Tempers fray and rows are kicked up. Legitimate grievances becomes insurmountable differences.
This is a bad year, this two-thousand and twentieth. A lot of tensions and worries, and quarrels old and new, all served nestling on a bed of a world epidemic. We are under belligerent and disruptive stars, at present. No wonder that we are rattled and irritable. However, I do believe that it will get better, eventually. The general atmosphere will 'cool off', and our little habitat will reflect that, too.
What may be important up until then, is to keep a clear sense of our grievances, so that we do not lose something that cannot be regained, something we may come to regret later. It is not my place to say 'play nice', and that is not the point. It may, however, be more important now than ever to keep a cold head, and be prepared to let a disagreement be, for a while.
Grievances do require taking out of the cupboard for some airing, otherwise they might mould. But it is a rather stormy day, at present. It may be better to wait.

  As for specific solutions, I regret to say that I can think of none, other than making games, discussing games, having some fun forum games... Helping where we can to keep the AGS tools and the culture around them useful and pleasant. Doing what we do, and what we like.

As for me, I think that I shall try to become a more reliable poster. A little word, here and there. Worry less about the content, as it were, as if I were billed by the letter. They say one should be the change they want to see. This little forum, like all little forums, is a habitat well worth spending some time on.
I am of little help in technical matters, but I think that I shall keep an eye on the questions forum more, too. Do my bit. Perhaps invent a few games and jollities of my own. Be the change, etc.
As far as I have seen, the AGS community has always run a rather tight ship, although it has been merrier than now. I think that we can turn it into that merry ship again, particularly when the bad weather subsides.

After all, we have soldiered on to September, have we not? Eight done, four more to go.

As always, do forgive the mammoth post. It keeps escaping. I shall have to buy it more hay. Further, I do appreciate the amusing fact that I came galloping in time to post in a thread that made me question why I so seldom post.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Ponch on Wed 02/09/2020 03:55:19
Sometimes real life just gets in the way our online lives. After being a constant presence on these forums for years, I drifted away for a long time. Recently, I have returned and was thrilled to find that this blue corner of the interwebs just as nice as I remember it being. Trolls are rare on these boards and I've always found the tone here to be quite polite if just a little bit chilly to newbies. Many of the old forums I use to haunt are dead or on life support, but this place is still standing and nicely populated. That makes me happy.

As for grievances, I hate candy sprinkles. Don't like them on cakes. Hate them on donuts. I was in Iceland when I turned 21 (the last good birthday for Americans) and what should have been a perfect, brightly-lit in late evening sort of day was marred by the birthday cake my sergeant made for me. It had tiny candy sprinkles on it. I smiled and thanked her. I got drunk with my team as tradition requires, but inside I wept chalky-sweet, brightly colored tears. There. I've finally got that off my chest after carrying around the pain for nearly 27 years. I feel so much better now. Thanks, AGS Forums, for giving me a chance to finally grieve.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Adeel on Wed 02/09/2020 05:12:45
Quote from: LimpingFish on Wed 02/09/2020 00:34:09
Quote from: Adeel on Tue 01/09/2020 16:08:43
Way to go, LimpingFish. Nice of you to paint all the users' grievances as "they won't let me write anti-trans rhetoric or alternative facts". Very nice tactic.
Then please, air your particular grievance. This is the first I've heard of your apparent upset with your experience here, and, despite what you may think, I'm more that happy to discuss it in a friendly manner. :)
Thank you, LimpingFish. You're a nice person.  I've always been grateful about the games you've gifted me (and others) in the past.  :)

It's funny you ask me to "air my grievance" right after when your fellow mod makes a "joke" about the very same thing (but then backpedals when confronted by Darth).

This might be the first time you've heard about my "upset" as you put it, but I've been unhappy for a while now. And no, my unhappiness has nothing to do with not being allowed to express my 'right-wing', 'conspiracy theories', 'anti-science' views. I'm a left-leaning person myself. Can't believe I've to clarify that, because otherwise, I'd be labelled "just another guy who hates he can't post his nut-job views".

To be honest, I was very hesitant to post even a word here, knowing the reaction that'd come out. I only posted after Darth's post, encouraged to see that I'm not the only one who sees the problem in the attitudes of the users.

I've been in this community for 7 years now, and I've seen a lot of stuff that has gone down over the years. I've been friends with many people here (and still keep in touch with some of them on Steam, IRC, Facebook from time to time). Several users have been disillusioned with the way things are run here. They have told me so and others in private. It's just that no one wants to confront people or air their dirty laundry in public. No one wants to be "that guy". I didn't want to become "that guy" either, so I've kept quiet and drifted away from the forums myself. I still tend to browse the forums now and then (without logging in). I've seen the sorry state of affairs of the forums nowadays. When this thread popped up, I thought maybe I should post and give my opinion on why it is so. But, like I said, I was very hesitant to post here.

Frankly, I don't have the time or energy to post back-and-forth detailed responses. There's no point. You can dismiss all my posts as the ramblings of a madman or "specious reasoning". Everything is fine and dandy, after all.

And Khris, I tried to be nice with you by not mentioning your name. You can try to justify all your toxicity however you want. But it won't change the fact that you've spewed a lot of vitriol in the past.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Snarky on Wed 02/09/2020 06:21:03
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Wed 02/09/2020 00:28:38
Even if it wasn't your intent can you at least acknowledge the possibility that some might see it as such regardless of how sure you are that they should have seen it your way?

Yes, apparently. So to be clear: As far as I'm concerned, people are welcome to air any concerns or grievances they have.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Mandle on Wed 02/09/2020 06:59:59
We're all going to have opinions specific to ourselves, whether they be about politics, religion, gender-roles, or whatever!

But we are here to make and enjoy games.

If someone makes a game with an outlook you don't agree on, then just don't play it. You don't HAVE to mount a campaign to drag their game through the dirt and expose it as the "atrocity" you see it as.

Same goes for opinions posted on these forums. If they offend you then just move on.

This is not Twitter where everything has to be a battle to the death of people over their opinions.

Come on, guys, this is AGS, where we come to get away from all that.

As far as the moderation goes. Yeah, I was scared of Snarky and Khris at first. I saw their (sometimes harshish) posts and was a bit intimidated, until I asked myself why they were here and why they were doing what they do. And the answer was because, despite a zero paycheck, they want AGS to succeed as a game engine.

And I have interacted with both of them and never had any real problems. Mostly I gained knowledge, or at least a frame of reference for how far certain posts here should go, which is also fine. There is no "Freedom of speech" clause when you enter the AGS forums. If you step over a line, you will be informed. If you don't like where that line is drawn, then just remember that this is a site about making and playing games. This is not intended as a site to stage radical societal change.

Sure, I saw Khris telling Jack to "Shut up" in many threads because he doesn't like his views. But I never saw Khris use his Mod powers to silence those views.

Grow a thicker skin, people. Nobody is ever going to agree with you 100% on your opinions. Stop arguing about them. If you don't agree with someone, then just ignore them, Don't play their games. Whatever.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Gilbert on Wed 02/09/2020 07:12:44
Quote from: Mandle on Wed 02/09/2020 06:59:59
Sure, I saw Khris telling Jack to "Shut up" in many threads because he doesn't like his views. But I never saw Khris use his Mod powers to silence those views.

Errr... Khris is not a moderator here.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Mandle on Wed 02/09/2020 07:23:34
Quote from: Gilbert on Wed 02/09/2020 07:12:44
Quote from: Mandle on Wed 02/09/2020 06:59:59
Sure, I saw Khris telling Jack to "Shut up" in many threads because he doesn't like his views. But I never saw Khris use his Mod powers to silence those views.

Errr... Khris is not a moderator here.

Sorry, my bad. I still doubt he would have used said powers in this way though if he had them.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: rongel on Wed 02/09/2020 07:56:07
Just a quick note in defense of AGS. This forum is one of the very few sites that I follow daily. I've been working on my game for five-six years already(!) and constantly visited the forums. The main reason is to get technical advice, either by reading old posts, or sometimes by starting a new thread. And I have always been surprised how quickly I get an answer! So without the forums, I would have gotten nowhere. The interest that people have showed my game is also very much appreciated, and has been a needed motivator.

I feel a bit bad that I don't post here more often, or give technical advice myself (well, I think there are people who are much, much better at that). I try to stay far away from heated arguments, or conflict situations here, I don't have time for that, and nobody has ever managed to change someone's views with online discussion. Also english is not my native language and in today's (overly?) sensitive atmosphere, one typo, or a bad joke could cancel you out before you even noticed that you made a mistake.

So while I may seem inactive, I follow closely what happens here, and wish AGS best of luck in these difficult days! Now, back to making games!  :=
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Babar on Wed 02/09/2020 08:12:12
This place definitely is more left-wing than other places I frequent on the web as an avid gamer and game developer.  Personally, I don't mind that, but I could be biased  :=, as so many other places I frequent are so virulently right-wing (I hate that sort of political/economic division to describe it, though- transphobia and xenophobia aren't supposed to be political positions).

Anyways, since we're airing grievances:

That TK guy is too nice! I mean, as a newbie, I might have felt him and ScummBuddy and Necro and Gilbot and TerranRich and Radiant (all too nice!) were a bit sharp (the original Khris! :grin: ), but I probably wouldn't have learnt AGS without them
Same for that Necro guy. Always promoting smoking and being a reptile by making it look cool in his avatar, but still, helping me in AGS
And that MrColossal. Acting like such a huge guy, but at least helping me out with those awesome tutorials. Without him and miez and ildu and DarthMandarb (WHERE IS THAT DAMNED STAR WARS GAME? I'VE BEEN WAITING OVER A DECADE) and Farlander, I'd be even more of a pixel-art idiot than I am now.
And m0ds for making music that was just too good! People got the wrong expectation of my game with that stuff!
And Evil and Peter Thomas and miez again and even Tanker for giving my my first experience working on a game in a team. WHY WOULD YOU SUBJECT ME TO THAT?!
And Iqu/Ian/Squinky the First for hosting my first site for so many years. Why would you allow me to inflict that on the internet?
And Custard and Vel and Al_Ninio and AGA and BOYD and FSi and the lot for making me stick with IRC. It's 2020, and I'M STILL THERE!
And ProgzMax for being good in art, music AND scripting. Sure, you may have helped me in all those things, but it's unfair on the rest of us!
And Scotch for spending several hours helping me set up and get OpenCV running way back when. Sure, I thanked you in my Thesis acknowledgements, but why would you let me think that gesture recognition was the future of computing?!
And Opo Terser for randomly showing up in C&C Lounge, dumping an incredibly beautiful fix to whatever was being asked for criticism, specifying that it was done in MSPaint, and then disappearing. Why make the rest of us feel so inadequate?!
And bicilotti for burning in the image of breakfast in bed from a bald, velvet-bathrobe-clad italian stallion into my head forever
And Matt for never giving me that signed pixel-art that he promised
And Ali for confusing me into thinking "Hey, another muslimbro on the forums, I'm not alone!". SO MANY YEARS I WAS DISILLUSIONED
And Ghost for keeping me up so many late nights due to different time zones, with help and conversations (I miss you, buddy)
And CrimsonWizard for constantly dragging AGS forward and making me need to constantly learn it again.

To be honest, there are far too many of you that I have grievances with. It's because of all of you I've been trapped here since 2003. Otherwise, I'd have bounced when AGS dumped the Interaction Editor.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Fitz on Wed 02/09/2020 09:06:43
Wow, I just realized that it was 10 years ago (to the day!) that I started on my first AGS project - and joined the forums a couple weeks later. I'm still here, checking in a few times a month at least, just to see how things are and feast my eyes on some pixel eye candy. I hardly ever play anything these days anymore, I'm perpetually either too busy or too tired for an intellectual challenge of this kind - especially since my work these days is all about problem-solving anyway. But I've made some good friends here - and co-workers, too, who've helped me get my games done (coding tips, seriously amazing music, and the beta testing; props especially to Tabata!), and who asked for help in theirs (including my first voice-acting gigs!). The spirit of helping out just out of kindness helped me restore some faith in humanity. I owe the AGS engine a lot, too. It was my introduction to programming, and helped me greatly to learn the logic of code: the need for structure, the neatness. It made a life-long dream of making my own video game possible. Served me quite well as a video-editing software, too! Finally, a couple years down the road, the experience gathered in AGS helped me get into web design. It's a whole new world, and a beast of its own, but at some base level the environment seemed familiar - and really fun!

So if you ever feel like sticking to a genre that had its glory days in the early 90's is niche, know that there's a guy out there programming 3D objects/animations and vector graphics in pure HTML (and occasionally PHP loops) - in WordPad! What kinda troglodite freak does that? And that was back in June or so. You don't even wanna know what I'm doing right now! (wrong)

As for grievances:

Quote from: Babar on Wed 02/09/2020 08:12:12SO MANY YEARS I WAS DISILLUSIONED

All disillusionment pales in comparison at my horror at the discovery that this isn't really Chicky:
(https://i.gifer.com/KOLy.gif)
Years and years of gathering the guts to confess love - only to discover the object of my undying affection was in reality a Jemaine Clement lookalike  :~(
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Privateer Puddin' on Wed 02/09/2020 09:29:46
Quote from: Fitz on Wed 02/09/2020 09:06:43
All disillusionment pales in comparison at my horror at the discovery that this isn't really Chicky:
(https://i.gifer.com/KOLy.gif)

See also Eric (Mr Colossal)'s old avatar
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Slasher on Wed 02/09/2020 10:08:28
I just wish for everyone to get on.... We all say things and make mistakes at time... we're only human...

I myself have much patient's with newbies and always answer questions as best I can. However, some do not take good advice and the thread can end up in a row...

Khris is a great scripter who does not suffer fools gladly and gets annoyed when people won't listen... This is Khris.... He really is an ok guy...All in all I don't like seeing tensions rising..

Regarding freedom of speech  etc etc, then maybe a 'no holds barred' forum would cover this if people wanted it and it was allowed... One could let off steam...

I have been coming here for years and occasionally you do get an odd awkward... but that's life.

Whilst some forums may not be to everyone's cup of tea there is one for everyone...

Whist AGS is around, long live the forums...


Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Mandle on Wed 02/09/2020 10:45:38
Okay, it seems initial question was answered.

We're all still here.

Now maybe we should just all fuck off and get back to AGSing.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Darth Mandarb on Wed 02/09/2020 14:40:06
My work here is done...
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Ali on Wed 02/09/2020 16:03:34
Quote from: Babar on Wed 02/09/2020 08:12:12
And Ali for confusing me into thinking "Hey, another muslimbro on the forums, I'm not alone!". SO MANY YEARS I WAS DISILLUSIONED

Not the direction I thought this thread was going! Sorry for not being a Muslim, everyone.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Cassiebsg on Wed 02/09/2020 20:13:50
There's still time to change and convert!  ;)

if (!muslim) player=muslim;
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Jack on Wed 02/09/2020 20:50:06
Damn, Reiter. That was a nice post. Others made nice posts too, but that was a lot of text and it was time well spent to read.

Quote from: Babar on Wed 02/09/2020 08:12:12
And bicilotti for burning in the image of breakfast in bed from a bald, velvet-bathrobe-clad italian stallion into my head forever

do not want
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: LimpingFish on Thu 03/09/2020 01:33:31
Quote from: Adeel on Wed 02/09/2020 05:12:45
I've been in this community for 7 years now, and I've seen a lot of stuff that has gone down over the years. I've been friends with many people here (and still keep in touch with some of them on Steam, IRC, Facebook from time to time). Several users have been disillusioned with the way things are run here. They have told me so and others in private.

That saddens me, as I would never like to think myself capable (not that you're accusing me) of causing somebody to leave the community. And I feel safe in saying none of the current moderators would be happy to feel that way either. If that is the case, though, all I can offer is my willingness to talk about it with these users. If their leaving was for reasons I can help with, then I would certainly like to do so.

Quote from: Slasher on Wed 02/09/2020 10:08:28
I just wish for everyone to get on.... We all say things and make mistakes at time... we're only human...

Indeed. One of the things I admire about my fellow moderators, when faced with a controversial situation, is their willingness to first look for a diplomatic resolution, and only initiate mod powers as a last resort. Bad situations rarely go beyond post deletions and warnings, though (very!) occasionally it can lead to a temp-ban.

But, yes, I too would like everyone to get on. :)

Quote from: Fitz on Wed 02/09/2020 09:06:43
All disillusionment pales in comparison at my horror at the discovery that this isn't really Chicky:

You think that's upsetting? Try being mentally unable to refrain from reading every single forum reply in the imagined voices of every single forum avatar!  8-0

Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Ponch on Thu 03/09/2020 01:45:49
Quote from: LimpingFish on Thu 03/09/2020 01:33:31
You think that's upsetting? Try being mentally unable to refrain from reading every single forum reply in the imagined voices of every single forum avatar!  8-0
Dude, I know EXACTLY what your avatar sounds like!  :=
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: LimpingFish on Sun 06/09/2020 02:55:51
Quote from: Ponch on Thu 03/09/2020 01:45:49
Dude, I know EXACTLY what your avatar sounds like!  :=

I hope it's like classic, Tex Avery Droopy Dog (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDSTIUMHq_Q).

EDIT: Also, it's Saturday night, so I'm drunk. My avatar sounding like Droopy will probably strike me as a lot less funny in the morning.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Mandle on Sun 06/09/2020 10:03:28
Quote from: LimpingFish on Sun 06/09/2020 02:55:51
My avatar sounding like Droopy will probably strike me as a lot less funny in the morning.

Did it?
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Dualnames on Tue 08/09/2020 11:22:27
Babar, unacceptable that I wasn't mentioned with the mosque burnings and all that.

On my side, I've been more productive and less active on the forums, it happens guys. Between my personal thingies and working on Strangeland there's fewer time to spend on AGS forums, I do love this place a whole lot, it will always have a special place in my heart, no matter what, still in my locked tabs, will never leave it. <3
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: LimpingFish on Fri 11/09/2020 01:36:48
Quote from: Mandle on Sun 06/09/2020 10:03:28
Quote from: LimpingFish on Sun 06/09/2020 02:55:51
My avatar sounding like Droopy will probably strike me as a lot less funny in the morning.

Did it?

Can't tell. I'm still drunk...
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Blondbraid on Fri 11/09/2020 10:16:22
So I spend half the summer away on vacation and take some time getting back on the forums because I have lots of other stuff to catch up on,
paired with art block keeping me from working on new AGS projects and keeping up with the engine, and now I feel like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/E1knL3h.gif)
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: the_schut on Sat 12/09/2020 12:39:45
Guess we outweighingly all agree that classical point n'click adventures are the most boring thing ever existed. They simply jangle with their linear clunkiness between annoying puzzles and unavoidable dialogues speedclicking. And that's why there is so little, if at all, feedback for authors even here (since no one can be bothered to play them).

So what has been the secret success secret of this forum: It's communion. One could find many likeminded people here, dedicated to their dreams they want to self-express. Originally this lame genre was an ok'ish purpose in the 90's for writing, composing tracks or pixelating. Don't get me wrong, each of these artsy disciplines are still great for itself. But foremost, it has always been great fun to hang out here, with these rare 2,3% people on the playful scale. Most of them rather outsidey snowflakes, but decent. Like you and me.

Yet with holding on this tediously boring game concept until today, less and less usable "really good friend" material can be found here. Increasingly unable to connect to soulmates, people got angry and bitter. And moved away to other shores, a lucky few with their friendships established here.

Though not me. I gonna stay here and endure. In case anyone humble and smart seeks an honest friend, don't hesitate to PM me, so I can send you the questionnaire.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: BarbWire on Sat 12/09/2020 14:51:49

To The_Schut

Point n' click adventures, the most boring thing that ever existed?
I think not.

Endless games have been made using this format and I never tire
of them. 

What is the point of talented AGSers investing a great deal of time,
and effort, into producing these games if most people share your opinion.

I know that nowadays players prefer simplicity and can't be bothered with
anything that requires too much brainwork or exploration, but if you want
an entertaining experience, then look no further.

Snowflakey, but decent , I do agree with. May it always be so.  :-D
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Blondbraid on Sat 12/09/2020 15:57:20
Well, every single word The_Schut posted in the above comment just look like a bad attempt at trolling the AGS forums to me.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: milkanannan on Sat 12/09/2020 16:12:02
How dare you judge the legitimacy of a user that’s been here a whole nine days!  (laugh)
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: BarbWire on Sun 13/09/2020 13:35:01

I thought the same as Blondbraid, until I read the amusing comment
made by Milkanannan.

I wish I'd thought of checking the credentials of The_Schut.

He obviously doesn't know what he's talking about and is a few pixels
short of a completed image.  (laugh)
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Darth Mandarb on Sun 13/09/2020 13:41:31
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Mon 31/08/2020 15:38:51I worry that the AGS forums have become too... elitist. Too stringent. Too unfriendly and new users are put-off by it.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: the_schut on Sun 13/09/2020 13:57:39
Very sorry for putting established people off here. Of course the wording was overexaggerated, just to state a far edged point of view which may is not totally invalid. And yet I still stand by that core message:

The community aspect here is by far the strongest point for me. Still is, and should be emphasized.

Yet the typical gameplay (interface, puzzle design,room-based) of adventures (derived from those text/image hybrids of Legend Interactive interfaces) is clearly something to revisit. Even established veterans like Charles Cecil sorta agree on the shortcomings of it. How to achieve such needed non-linearity and compelling narrative design for the semiprofessional allrounder is a adifficult question, both in theoretical mechanism as well as codewise implementation .

But ok, I am a dumb and an ignorant troll.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: BarbWire on Sun 13/09/2020 15:02:28

Sorry, Darth, I don't want to prove your view that AGSers are an
unfriendly bunch.

Let's all grow thicker skins.  :)
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: BarbWire on Sun 13/09/2020 15:13:27

To the_schut

Everybody is entitled to express an opinion, and shouldn't take
it to heart if other people don't agree with them. it is, for the most
part, just harmless banter. A way to give your fingers a good workout
on the keyboard etc.

If dumb and ignorant trolls are like you, then they can't be all bad.

Let friendship reign.  (laugh)
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: the_schut on Tue 15/09/2020 09:20:42
Thx for clarifying. Right, everything said here should be taken with a grain of salt, since it's only a hobbyist forum. And you are a woman; gonna try to be my best.  :=
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: BarbWire on Tue 15/09/2020 09:44:37

Your post actually made me laugh.  (laugh)

Hope we can be besties now.  :)
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Blondbraid on Tue 15/09/2020 20:20:42
Well, with the following replies, I'm willing to give the newbie the benefit of the doubt for now.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Mandle on Wed 16/09/2020 12:36:01
@the_schut:

Did you also know that the included template for AGS being about creating point-and-click adventure games can be disregarded and that you can make whatever kind of game you like with this engine?
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: BarbWire on Wed 16/09/2020 14:22:41
Good on you, Blondbraid.

We will be a shining example for everybody else to follow.  :)
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: BarbWire on Wed 16/09/2020 14:28:07

Very true, Mandle.  (nod)

Take a game like 'Tales of Jayvin' (Shameless plug here)
It can only be played using keyboard or controller.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Blondbraid on Wed 16/09/2020 16:17:00
Quote from: Mandle on Wed 16/09/2020 12:36:01
@the_schut:

Did you also know that the included template for AGS being about creating point-and-click adventure games can be disregarded and that you can make whatever kind of game you like with this engine?
Well, it still has to be in 2D (although I've seen some clever coding to give the illusion of 3D in some projects),
but other than that I've seen people make both arcade shooters, fighting games and racing games in the AGS engine.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Mandle on Wed 16/09/2020 16:26:11
Quote from: Blondbraid on Wed 16/09/2020 16:17:00
Quote from: Mandle on Wed 16/09/2020 12:36:01
@the_schut:

Did you also know that the included template for AGS being about creating point-and-click adventure games can be disregarded and that you can make whatever kind of game you like with this engine?
Well, it still has to be in 2D (although I've seen some clever coding to give the illusion of 3D in some projects),
but other than that I've seen people make both arcade shooters, fighting games and racing games in the AGS engine.

Well, yeah, if, as an indie game dev working on your own, you want to make a game in full 3D then go Unity or Unreal Engine, and be willing to compete with Triple-A studios and pour the next 5 years of your life into the game, only to then realize that the technology has already outpaced you.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: BarbWire on Thu 17/09/2020 16:16:20

It's amazing how this thread has morphed since I first posted.

It reminds me of a story, I once heard, about soldiers in the trenches. (WW1)

An order arrived saying 'Send reinforcements we're going to advance.' This
was passed, by word of mouth, and by the time it reached the last in line,
he was told....'Send three and fourpence we're going to a dance.'   :)

If only. This is, of course, a bad joke.

Anyway, judging by the amount of replies, I should say that my original post
has been, well and truly, indirectly answered.







Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: milkanannan on Fri 18/09/2020 00:19:44
Off topic: Barbwire, what’s up with the formatting of all of your posts?
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Mandle on Fri 18/09/2020 00:27:03
Quote from: milkanannan on Fri 18/09/2020 00:19:44
Off topic: Barbwire, what’s up with the formatting of all of your posts?

I'm guessing they are using their device zoomed in for larger text size?
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: FormosaFalanster on Fri 18/09/2020 01:53:56
Quote from: Mandle on Wed 16/09/2020 16:26:11


Well, yeah, if, as an indie game dev working on your own, you want to make a game in full 3D then go Unity or Unreal Engine, and be willing to compete with Triple-A studios and pour the next 5 years of your life into the game, only to then realize that the technology has already outpaced you.

This is actually an excellent reason to keep doing retro-looking games: they cannot get more out of fashion than they already are.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: BarbWire on Fri 18/09/2020 18:22:44

Milkanannan

I don't know whats so strange about the formatting.
It's easier on the eye, almost like poetic verse, and
my personal choice. I like to be different.

So there.  :P
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Stupot on Fri 18/09/2020 23:42:52
I don’t know what what’s so strange about the formatting.
It’s easier on the eye
Almost like poetic verse,
And my

Personal choice.
I like
To be

Different

So there!  :tongue:
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Jack on Sat 19/09/2020 01:01:39
(https://img.devrant.com/devrant/rant/r_1407520_GB8AG.jpg)
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: BarbWire on Sat 19/09/2020 09:05:58
Ha, Ha, Ha!   I haven't laughed so much in ages. Please keep 'em coming. Just what's needed in these dark days.  (laugh)
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: Mandle on Sun 20/09/2020 01:18:27
Quote from: FormosaFalanster on Fri 18/09/2020 01:53:56
Quote from: Mandle on Wed 16/09/2020 16:26:11


Well, yeah, if, as an indie game dev working on your own, you want to make a game in full 3D then go Unity or Unreal Engine, and be willing to compete with Triple-A studios and pour the next 5 years of your life into the game, only to then realize that the technology has already outpaced you.

This is actually an excellent reason to keep doing retro-looking games: they cannot get more out of fashion than they already are.

Exactly my thoughts! Most players also do not bring unrealistically high expectations with them as well, so a quality low-or-no-budget game can really make an impression.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: BarbWire on Sun 20/09/2020 13:21:47

Hi Mandle

I would like to thank you for answering my first post constructively.

Also, you have steered the topic back on course, when things have got
heated or silly.

I think it is time for the mods to lock this, now, as i feel it has run its course.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: SinSin on Sat 17/10/2020 18:51:59
SinSin here long time lurker, very occaisional commenter.

Its a tricky one to answer without saying whats already been said. I've met a few AGSers overs the years and can honestly say that everyone I have met IRL  from here have been awesome and out of those only 4 or 5 remain here these days.

I suppose some people move on and find other less complicated hobbies. Others don't get time to post these days as their lives got busy. As for me the reason I tend to lurk and not respond is down to me over thinking absolutely everything I want to write. I also had it in my head for a long long time that I wasn't enough of an intellectual to contribute, some people here are coding geniuses others are incredible artists whereas I am marginally good at a few of the things here.

I have been around for 15 years and hope to start getting some content out soon. As for posting who knows maybe I'll try offering my 2 pence everynow and then.
Title: Re: Where is everybody
Post by: BarbWire on Tue 20/10/2020 16:13:22
Don't worry about contributing SinSin. It took me a while to pluck up the courage to post, but once I did
I enjoyed the experience.   So, please do offer your 2 pence now and then.
I look forward to seeing the fruits of your labour, in the near future.