The Wonders of Democracy

[evenwolf]

http://news.google.com/url?ntc=0M0B0&q=http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/09/senate.intelligence/

What's interesting about my nation's government is it's flexibility.Ã,  One year, men can do horrible acts of wrongdoing, and the next year - claim that the action was a mistake while still reaping the benefits of that action.Ã,  Blame is put on several individuals, and those individuals are expected to carry the guilt as the nation moves on into new blunder.Ã,  Ã, This way, when other nations argue "What you americans did was evil", we simply nod or heads in agreement and say "Yes it was, but don't worry- we're tossing the wrongdoers out of office- this kind of mistake will never happen again."

For your replies,Ã,  I would prefer to keep personal US / Iraq arguments down to a minimum.Ã,  Instead, I would like to discuss this dynamic ability of the US to change out its leaders with each new embarrassment.Ã,  Ã, Where will this lead?Ã, 

[Darth Mandarb]

I have this theory (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) that ALL governments throughout history were corrupt/evil/backwards whatever you want to call it.Ã,  But because there was no mass-media until the last 1/2 century nobody knew about it.

Now, with the proliferation of the media, NOTHING is secret anymore.Ã,  (by media I mean; press, internet, paparattzi, etc.)

So a government wanted war?Ã,  Big shock.
So a high gvt. official did something duplicit?Ã,  Whoa!!
So a politician lied about something?Ã,  No shit?

People who don't want the power and authority that comes with being a political leader don't become political leaders.Ã,  Those who enter politics with high ideals and morals either 1) become corrupted or 2) don't stay in office.

It's sad, but I've come to realize that it's always been this way and, sadly, probably always will be.

So ... while I think it's shitty and shady, it certainly doesn't suprise me.

A government (not just the U.S.) will do whatever it takes to A) make the country look as good as possible and B) lay the blame on others if they fuck up.

There's always a scapegoat/patsy just waiting to take the fall for those in power.

But this article seems, to me, more like simple 'saving-face' because the election is fast approaching.

[Moox]

The media is run by the government tho darth. Propaganda runs wild nowadays. The government is releasing little bits of info at a time so it appears that they arnt entirely in control rather then have supremacy.

[evenwolf]

I first pasted a nytimes article and realized no one could read it, so I'm not sure how closely the CNN one is to the other. (reading it now)

My response to your theory Darth is that I agree.Ã,  Power corrupts.Ã,  But as we've seen throughout history, power also changes hands.Ã,  Julius Caesar, Napoleon, and Hitler are only the most obvious examples of greedy men who gained and then lost power.Ã,  My curiousity reaches more toward "How long will the US's greed last?Ã,  Just how flexible is it to continuously perpertuate itself?"

People cite examples of dictatorship, communism, and why these systems are wrong but such circumstances of democracy usually fall on the individual rather than the system itself.

[Darth Mandarb]

"How long will the US's greed last?Ã,  Just how flexible is it to continuously perpertuate itself?"

I think about this often ... as more and more people get 'connected' and start opening their eyes to the problem it's going to reach a boiling point eventually.Ã,  Could the US be headed towards another civil war?Ã,  Government vs. Civilians?Ã,  Sure it's extreme ... but so was our bid for independance (taken in context of the times).

People cite examples of dictatorship, communism, and why these systems are wrong but such circumstances of democracy usually fall on the individual rather than the system itself.

That's the "beauty" of democraZy ... the true power holders can just way-lay the blame on somebody else.Ã, 

I think the president should be fully to blame for each fuck-up that happens while he's in office.Ã,  Then, come election time, if he's over the allowed amount of fuck-ups he can't run in the next election.Ã,  And if, before elections, there are over a certain ammount of fuck-ups he's impeached.Ã,  This [naive statement coming] might make him think before acting?

Even a dictatorship can work, and even be pleasant.Ã,  The problem comes in that with the power of the position the position gets taken advantage of.

Even communism *dm looks around for senator McArthy* is a good idea.Ã,  But once you put humans into the equation it becomes "bad" (subjective term).

I truely believe democracy is the greatest form of government ... I just wish it could work without people involved in it.

[Rave]

Instead, I would like to discuss this dynamic ability of the US to change out its leaders with each new embarrassment.   Where will this lead?

I don't understand what you mean by that...er....are you saying that when our leaders mess up...we SHOULDN'T  "change them out"? I thought it was a good thing. I mean, I don't really know if Bush is going to loose in this next election, but I think he needs to go. None of us can predict for sure if our next leader will (to use Darth's eloquitte term) "fuck up" big again in the future, but if its bad enough, we will throw them out too. Mabye one day a polotician will get the idea "Hmm....maybe I shouldn't lie and cheat because I'll loose my job if I do" and it will start a new trend. Who knows. But the only thing we can do is try our best to hold our poloticians responsible to their actions, or run for office ourselves.

[Andail]

As Las pointed out, these problems tend to occur more often with super nations.
The power becomes situated too far from the people, they lose interest, people can buy power by financing campaigns, people don't care what decisions are made, the chain of responsibility gets too long and diffuse, those in power lose their sense of pride and responsibility, since their actions and the results of their actions becomes too separated.
In the end, nobody knows or cares what went wrong. They just know it wasn't their fault.

[Darth Mandarb]

In the end, nobody knows or cares what went wrong. They just know it wasn't their fault.

Well put.

Complacency can be very dangerous ...

[YOke]

just wanted to add that what we refer to as "democracy" is really called "representative democracy".
Democracy is what we believe in, that all people have a vote in what happens in their country.
Representative democracy is where all people have a vote to select one guy/gal, whom they do not really know, to speak on their behalf. Theese people rarely do what the people who voted for them thought they would do when they voted for them.

I believe that the only thing that can turn the trend of a lying, cheating world is the free exchange of information. (or The Internet as I like to call it.) That, or collective, frontal lobotomys. Don't get me wrong. I don't believe Heaven will descend on Earth when we get the free exchange of information, but it's a bigger finger in the dyke.

[Las Naranjas]

However, I clarify that by stating that small nations and their leaders would do the same if they could.

[DGMacphee]

There's been a lot of blame put the security agencies over the last few years. Before our last election, our government had an immigration "crisis" with a boat full of refugees that were throwing children overboard.

It turns out there were no children overboard, and there was mass confusion as to what the government did know and didn't know regarding intelligence reports on the matter.

Here's a website that's documented a lot of it: http://www.truthoverboard.com/

As for my personal opinion, I just hope the US history books get their story right on the whole Bush/Iraq issue.

And I'd take an extra step in saying that not only can you blame the corruption of government officials for the fall of democracy, but also the corrupters (namely, elite powers and corperations).



EDIT:

Bush's response made me laugh: http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200407/s1150855.htm

I love the title of the article: "Bush pledges intelligence reform". It's kind of ironic when you think about it.

But the part I liked was:
He told a crowd of several hundred cheering supporters why he ordered the US-led assault on Iraq in March 2003, saying the world knew ousted Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein had been trying to acquire nuclear, biological and chemical weapons.

"We haven't found the stockpiles, but we knew he could make them," Mr Bush said.

It's kind like this (read Petula's response): http://www.seanbaby.com/hostess/wonwom6.htm

I can relate to what Bush says. You see, at home, I have a set of kitchen knives I use to cut meat. However, those knives could be used to kill people if I ever go on a psychopathic rampage. Sure, there are no bodies buried in my backyard, BUT I COULD STILL GO ON A KILLING SPREE! So, the cops had better arrest me ASAP. If Matlock taught us anything, it's that a hunch is just as good as evidence when it comes to arresting young punks like me.

I mean, there are far more threatening countries that could make nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. Why not invade them based on the possiblity of making WMDs? Since Australia has a shitload of Uranium mines, I guess we'll be the first to go. See you, everyone! Next you'll hear of me, I'll be getting felt up by Lynndie England!

[shbaz]

Mabye one day a polotician will get the idea "Hmm....maybe I shouldn't lie and cheat because I'll loose my job if I do" and it will start a new trend. Who knows.

So they're worried about losing this job they have for 8 years max anyway, when they can get millions from corporate favors they gave away during a single term? loL politisians are dum.

[Rave]

.......I read your response a few times and I can't understand if your making fun of politicians, me or yourself in that post. ?

But I didn't mean only presidents/presidential candidates exclusively. A lot of our other law-makers and such are corrupted too. (Cabinet officials, CIA/FBI gov workers, Senators/Reps) and so forth. I think one of the only branches of government I have some faith and trust in is the Supreme Court. And yeah, its really crap that we have to live with politicians who are crooks and liars. And that's precisely why we need to stop being tolerant of our leaders when they act wrongly and hold them more accountable. The freedom of information can only go so far, at some point we need to enforce action for corruptible behavior. Business executives are finally starting to feel the pressure, but how do we hold the government accountable? It's somewhat of a paradox.

[shbaz]

With term limits, they aren't worried about losing their job. Especially Presidents (how many impeachments in US history?).

Just guess how many long-term business connections Bush now has with all of those no-bid contracts in Iraq. The tax cuts. Enron (dead now, but that wasn't his intention). Halliburton..