New text adventure!

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

HELM USE LESS QUEST 1.0!!!11


"Use find use'self in an 18" x 25" r00m.  SEXY SPACE BABES stand in a c0rner next t0 the PYRODRIVE 9000 X-Ray Machine.

LOOK SEXY SPACE BABES

"OmG H3LM, THEY'RE HAWT!"

TOUCH SEXY SPACE BABES

" 'USE NAWTY!@!1LOL!"

USE SEXY SPACE BABES

"J00 did NOT just USE that V3RB!"

USE PYRODRIVE 9000 ON SEXY SPACE BABES

"OMG 'USE HAX0R!  J00 USE the PYRODRIVE 9000 ON the SEXY SPACE BABES, revealing their innermost...Innards...H3y, they're all guyz!  'USE TEH ROFLEND!"

[Radiant]

Wooo. So what you're saying is that famous IF games such as Zork, A Mind Forever Voyaging and Slouching Towards Bedlam, generally considered the cream of the crop among fans, appear underdeveloped?

Wait... Did I say that? I can't find where I said that.

a parser that rejected "use" would appear underdeveloped.

Zork, AMFV and Bedlam all reject "use". So does S101, and iirc nearly every other game by Infocom or Legend. FYI.


Anyway,

Let's agree to disagree on this one.

Wait, are you actually saying you've never used a phone before, Radiant?  Never used a bicycle pump on a flat tire?  You actually haven't used anything?  :

Nope. I'm not using a keyboard to type this, either.

Oh and yes I agreee with Helm.

[Ali]

use sun tan lotion (rather than e.g. "apply sun tan lotion to me")

whereas I use with using use in there for that for example, and generally not carpet-using 'use' for an IF engine, I can use of a lot of obfuscated uses for sun tan lotion in an adventure game, so that uses for something as far as 'obvious' uses goes. Obvious in real life sure, but adventure games are not real life. The game design has to gentle use the themes of the game and the appropriate commands to be used. In real life I don't 'use bed' either, nor do I use 'north' but it's an IF convention for a reason.Ã,  It uses and uses some things (inventive and specific usages of things) and it uses some others (pointless-clickery-type USE MY MOM ON DOOR LOL). Exceptions use where an application of something can IFingly be use by the generic USE, but exceptions don't use a strong case. YUS.

I feel used.

I do agree though. I felt some of the classic IFs should have allowed me to 'use key on door', but I wouldn't want the flexibility of a text parser to be stripped away by disallowing exciting verbs like and examine, exhume and crunch.

[Erenan]

Zork, AMFV and Bedlam all reject "use". So does S101, and iirc nearly every other game by Infocom or Legend. FYI.

You're missing the point, Radiant. I'm not saying that those games are bad. I'm just saying that "use" should be acceptable if it's clear what the player wants to do. The parser should be the player's means of interacting with the game world, not another obstacle in that game world.

[Radiant]

You're missing the point, Radiant. I'm not saying that those games are bad. I'm just saying that "use" should be acceptable if it's clear what the player wants to do. The parser should be the player's means of interacting with the game world, not another obstacle in that game world.

My point is that the most widely used and highly praised parsers in the world fail this criterium you're proposing. The dichotomy should be obvious.

[Goldmund]

The beauty of IF lies in the fact that it is never obvious what you can do with an item.

[lo_res_man]

I think "use" can have a place, but only for the "default" uses,(such as use phone, use shower,)and almost never for solving a puzzle. as well more complex synonyms should be included ,as in "use phone" should be equivalent to "answer phone" , but "use phone" should not be equivalent to more complex things, "use phone" shouldn’t mean "dial 555-1493"
just because Infocom's parser is so great, that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement, especially in games for beginners,
btw, has anyone used the AGS parser engine to good effect?

[Goldmund]

If you include "use" in your parser, be sure to include these commands as well:

- live
- be happy
- solve puzzle

And, last but not least:
- win game

It's only consequential.

[lo_res_man]

Use doesn't have to be that simple, it can add to the interactivity, or it can detract from it. if its the only word used, (OR NEARLY) yes it can be a bugaboo, but if its only part, and not used for puzzles, it can make the game world a less frustrating place. A verb that can be used on practically anything, (but never anyone) so that if you are extremely frustrated, and you want to see some new text, besides the ones you’ve seen over and over again, just USE something, I find a computer telling me use is a naughty word is a greater destroyer of my suspension of disbelief, then using something, maybe it will turn a light on, maybe it will turn on the radio, maybe it will get you killed, but at least does something. its good for those stressful moments when you want to kill the parser. Like when YOU ARE A TOTLE NEWBIE!

[Kweepa]

The beauty of IF lies in the fact that it is never obvious what you can do with an item.

That's true.
However, for some objects there's an obvious use. Think of it like the right click in the LucasArts games. It never solves a puzzle for you. It just does the basic obvious interaction.

[EDIT] I should clarify that. I don't think "use" should be as pervasive as right click. Only when it makes sense, as previously explained.

[Erenan]

My point is that the most widely used and highly praised parsers in the world fail this criterium you're proposing. The dichotomy should be obvious.

They're not perfect. Just because they're the most widely used and highly praised parsers in the world doesn't mean they can't be improved. What? Is saying that a sin or something?

[Exorph]

But if you use the word USE only when you're certain what verb you actually mean, then why can't you just type in that verb instead?

[Erenan]

You could type either verb, of course. The point is that if the parser understands what you want to do, it shouldn't punish the player just because he used a FORBIDDEN VERB!!! :o

[Khris]

Here's a quote from Inform's Designer's Manual:

[attribute]Ã,  Ã, Matches any object in scope which has the given attribute. This is useful for sorting out actions according to context, and perhaps the ultimate example might be an old-fashioned “use” verb:

Verb 'use' 'employ' 'utilise'
Ã,  Ã,  * edibleÃ,  Ã,  -> Eat
Ã,  Ã,  * clothingÃ,  -> Wear
Ã,  Ã,  ...
Ã,  Ã,  * enterable -> Enter;

I think that ultimately it's the designer's decision how to include "use", if at all.
Surely we all agree that guess-the-verb situations are evil, but including "use" is pretty much the opposite.

IMO, a decent parser should allow "use deodorant", but reject "use iron rod".
People use deodorant all the time, but nobody uses an iron rod, instead people hit things with it, jam it in sliding doors, stick it in small holes or pry open coffins with its flat end.
"Use key in door" is inappropriate, too, the player should have to "unlock door with key".

An IF game is supposed to be an interactive novel, not a left/right click game ported to text only.

[Radiant]

They're not perfect. Just because they're the most widely used and highly praised parsers in the world doesn't mean they can't be improved. What? Is saying that a sin or something?

No, the point is that most fans of the IF genre disagree with you that this would be an improvement, or this simple change would have been made long ago.

Many IF games, including most infocommies and legend games, even reject "look tree" because you didn't specify if you wanted to look AT, UNDER or IN the tree. And most people don't mind.

it shouldn't punish the player just because he used a FORBIDDEN VERB!!!

Code: ags

> Use key in lock
Your character has performed an illegal operation and will be terminated.
You die.
You scored 0 out of 42 points in 519 moves, giving you a rank of n00b luser.
Would you like to restart, restore, undo or quit?
> use undo button
#&*( Segmentation fault, core dumped.

Surely we all agree that guess-the-verb situations are evil, but including "use" is pretty much the opposite.

Agreed. Any good text adventure has such a large vocabulary that verb-guessing isn't an issue. It is often cited as a problem with text adventures, but in reality that's a straw man as it has never been a problem with any decent text parser, and only comes up with a few amateur-made games, or the far less versatile verb+noun parser of old Sierra games.

And, last but not least:
- win game

Monkey Island has that command

Code: ags

> use the Force, Luke
What do you want to do with the Force?

[Erenan]

No, the point is that most fans of the IF genre disagree with you that this would be an improvement, or this simple change would have been made long ago.

Regardless of what you and most of the other fans think, I believe that accepting "use" in select cases where it's clear what the player wants to do would be an improvement. But this isn't going anywhere. We disagree, and neither of us are ever going to give up any ground. Let's stop.

[lo_res_man]

I heartily agree, lets stop, lets discuss some of our fave IF adventures, wwhat we liked, what we didn't like, but lets not start a war.

[Radiant]

We disagree, and neither of us are ever going to give up any ground. Let's stop.

Yeah, ok.

As lo_res suggested, let's instead discuss some of our fave IF adventures... anyone familiar with the Spellcasting series? The magic system is quite nice.

[Kweepa]

I finished 101 and enjoyed it immensely. (When I read Harry Potter it reminded me a lot of the university.)
201, I got stuck wandering around the (island/resort?) with not enough direction, so I gave up.
That was 12 or so years ago though. So long ago that I don't even remember the magic system.
On the other hand, I remember pretty well the Enchanter magic system, and I played that series longer ago than 1994. I thought it was great - then again, it was my first magic system. *Misty eyes*

[Radiant]

You should give 201 another try; it's the best in the series imho. 301 was good as well (but extremely difficult) only the plot twist for the last chapter is about as bad as the ending of Monkey Island II.

The magic system is in fact the same as with Enchanter (except that you don't need to memorize things, you just cast them from your spellbook). That's because Legend was founded by some ex-Infocommies. S101, of course, features a wide array of improbable spells such as whale summoning. One of the funner spells was in S301, which had a 'spell mutation' spell. For instance, you had the Frimp spell of levitation, and could mutate it into the Frump spell of legislation. You could even mutate 'spell mutation' into 'shell mutation'

Oh yeah and I love Enchanter and Sorcerer, but found Spellbreaker entirely impossible.

Happy frotzing!