Do you think Adventure Games should be more serious?

[miguel]

Insofox: I agree with you there.

VinceTwelve: I still could not download, neither your version, but from reading that thread I got the idea of the game's   quality. I guess it is a good example of what not to do with adventure games.

[Emerald]

It depends what you mean by serious. If you mean 'down-to-earth' as opposed to the wild antics of MI or DoTT then I would personally say yes. Most of the time I find the best humour actually comes from serious stories and situations. I hate things which are ingratiatingly 'zany'. However, going the other way can be bad too -- like someone said previously, being too 'dark and gritty and real' can just become obnoxious. It's good to a point, but after a while you just start to think "c'mon, real life isn't that moody/dark/depressing/melodramatic..."


Take The Longest Journey for example -- there were always these humourous undertones (most of Crow's and Flipper's lines were gold, as well as the social commentaries), and there was plenty of bizarre stuff -- but it also had a solid, atmospheric story and a brilliant way of capturing your imagination. It was just serious enough to make it seem real, but light enough to make it fun.

Now take Fahrenheit -- the first half of the game was brilliant because it was about real people having their real lives affected by this odd mystery. It was serious, and suspenseful and all that, but in a somewhat lax way (like in real-life... everything's less dramatic in real life). Then, the real people turn superhuman, the mystery disintegrates into bullshitery, and the emotional 'glue' that held the whole thing together just fizzled away, causing it all to fall apart in the second half.



I guess what I'm trying to say in all this is that emotional seriousness is far more important than th).ematic seriousness. I reckon you could have the most ridiculous premise ever, but if the characters are believable, then the story will be (to take another example, Jaws)

[Vel]

I urge each and every person who has not played The Last Express to do so. It is a perfect example of what adventure games - as an art form - should be.

[ma2003]

Heres my opinion.

ALL games should become more serious. In order for video games to be more serious, designers (mainly commercial game designers) will have to start thinking serious with serious subjects. (drugs, love, sex, life, death etc). Video gamers will have to start appreciating and buying serious forms of games.

That is the only way I can see video games in general, start to become a full-on, artform. I don't see why its bad to have drugs in a video game, as long as it actually contributes to the story. (I yet have to wait for a game with a character that constantly uses drugs, in order to keep him sane and calm)

Do I think Adventure Games should be more serious? Yes and No. I feel adventure games have reached a certain peak of seriousness already, in terms of aesthetics, story, character depth(some games aren't so good with that). Its like an FPS....with all there amazing graphics, amazing character models, amazing gun play and AI, you'd expect the story to push boundaries, have a moral (like The Matrix, or recently the Iron Man movie which had some slight anti-war themes). All FPS games have the unlimited capability to create a stunning story and make-you-think story....but most of them continue to be about World War 2, Apocalyptic Destruction, Aliens, and Zombies and monsters. Adventure games are the same.

Seeing a Medieval Type Adventure Game bores the crap out of me. Didn't they make those games like, fifteen years ago?

More Games should start tinkering with new ideas, surrealism, comedy, black comedy, philosophy, and unconventional gameplay ideas and off-beat ideas.

The last thing that I believe should be added in games is a moral of a story. Most games that I play, FPS, Adventure Games, RPG stuff...all tend to leave me empty by the end of the game. Video games have merely become "Square One is the starting point, reach Square Ten to finish the game." By the time the game ends, it doesn't leave me thinking about the game, and why I had the motive to play the game in the first place, and complete it.

Story in my opinion makes interaction of a game more unique compared to how a movie delivers a story. In a game, you can search for the story yourself (talking to characters, learning more about history and story) In a movie, the story is layed out in front of you. Which is, in my opinion, makes Games (especially Adventure and Adventure-Influenced games).

Honestly though, I'm so glad AGS EXISTS. I have many ideas that I've always wanted to create. I've learnt so much about AGS recently, and that my vision for a video game is slowly coming closer to reality.

[blueskirt]

I really don't know what my opinion is on that matter. I like serious games as much as the next guy but if Portal proves us anything, is that you don't have to discuss about sex, love, drug, life and death to be successful, well written games that mesh with innovative gameplay mechanics are still awesome. Also, a lot of scifi novels discuss about serious subjects or philosophy, you don't need a modern days setting to do that.

Indie adventure games' graphics, musics and writing have been pushed as far as what Sierra, LucasArts and the other giants offered in the golden days of adventure games. Before we move the story aspect to the next level, I'd rather if we moved gameplay to the next level, by designing new ways to solve puzzles (not unlike what Dave Gilbert did with The Shivah), trying new verbs and interfaces (not unlike Loom and Full Throttle), blending genres a bit or by trying completly new things (Uplink, Portal, Penumbra...), because if the folder with 50+ unplayed indie adventure games that is located on my hard drive tell me something, it's that after 6 years of indie adventure games, I'm tired to be fed stories bundled with gameplay mechanics that haven't evolved a single bit since Monkey Island 2 (and sometimes with no gameplay mechanics at all), save for a few exceptions, which remains what they are, exceptions.

There's nothing wrong in making a traditionnal point and click adventure game that play just like Monkey Island, but if all that is done is traditionnal point and click adventure games that introduce nothing new gameplay speaking, this genre will never go anywhere.

More importantly, adventure games are about using your gray matter and creativity in order to overcome problems and situations, if we can find new ways to replace or reduce this "item on other things", "clue collecting" and "dialogue tree" gameplay mechanics, with mechanics that still require gray matter and creativity rather than reflexes, we'll open up new story possibilities that were incompatible, or didn't fit well with only "item on other things", "clue collecting" and "dialogue tree" mechanics.

[The Meek Geek]

  You make some interesting points. I personally LOVE to play Adventure Games. They remind me somewhat of the classic Choose-Your-Own-Adventure Books etc of the 80's.

Like other genres of video games (and movies too!), there should be Adventure Games with ESRB Ratings on them to warn parents and sensitive gamers if the games have brutal violence, mature content, nudity, disturbing scenes, etc.

Personally, I don't enjoy playing brutally violent or vulgar games, however, I do enjoy a thrilling Adventure Game where the hero embarks on a dangerous journey where one false move good mean his/her death. I don't fully enjoy adventure games where there is no real sense of danger, sorry. I love the thrill of knowing that hazards are "real", so to speak. The occasional battle is nice. Something like the Indiana Jones Adventures, King's Quest, or Ben Jordan etc...

[passer-by]

I'd like to see more serious games, but I don't like the word "should" in your question.
Inspiration is what it is. When forced, it is not inspiration anymore but commanded creativity.

The maker defines the character of a game. Anything that is out of character is badly made, if you ask me. games are not an exception.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I think the genre lends itself to more lighthearted gameplay than others, probably in part due to the laid-back nature of item collection and puzzle solving.  There's no reason to impose a specific tone for adventure games, though.  There are plenty of serious games out there, both commercial and freeware.

[The Meek Geek]

Similar to what you guys are saying...

There should be no hard and fast rules for Adventure Games.
1. If the Game Creator wants a Family Friendly Puzzle Adventure, that's fine.
2. If the Game Creator wants a Thrilling Danger Filled Quest, that's good as well.
3. If the Game Creator wants an Adventure Game for Mature-Adult Audiences, that's his/her right.

All I'm saying, there should be special Game Ratings for each kind to warn parents and sensitive Gamers.

And, from the list above, I prefer #2.

[Stupot]

It depends what you mean by 'serious'... if you mean 'attempting to tackle mature and difficult issues (such as racism, drugs and the rest)' then I don't think adventure games are really the best way to address those kind of things.  Games that try to do that end up looking like they were made for 'Channel 4 Schools',  or those pathetic 'Social Education' classes we had to have in school where they taught us how to put a condom over a test tube.

But if by 'serious' you mean 'isn't childish' then I think there are already plenty of games that do that, and these are my favourite kind of games, but sometimes it's nice to relapse into chilishness... I mean it's the nostalgia for primarily childish games that brought most of us here in the first place

[The Meek Geek]

Heh. Ditto man. If I want a lecture on "serious" things like that, I'll google up a website, Wikipedia  or go to a Library. Personally, I play Adventure Games, to escape from reality, not experience it better! LOL!

[InCreator]

Less politically correct I say! More adult audience (and I don't really mean porn here)!
KGB is most serious, and therefore best - adventure game, ever.

if you mean 'attempting to tackle mature and difficult issues (such as racism, drugs and the rest)' then I don't think adventure games are really the best way to address those kind of things.

Adventure games are more or less interactive novels. Why couldn't be content as various as in novels?
A story is a story. A book is a book. There could be anything written there. How is adventure game SO different?
And what could be BETTER way to address "those kind of things"?! A RPG or shooter or fighter where immense is broken when player delivers his attention to stats or equipment or damage bars instead of diving into plot?
Or... what else? I really don't understand this. What could ever work better than adventure genre?

All we get is one kids' game after another. Or a horror game that's still too childish. Blood & gore doesn't make things mature, despite what rating givers say. Ideas do.

About news and wiki: This is simply personal preference. Games could be about ALL kind of things, crossing nothing out because "there's too much of it on tv". It's more like your pick which mood you like in your game. I personally would trade one "tv-thing" call of duty 4 for hundreds of other non-modern-setting games. Simply because I saw MP5 submachine gun on TV, never really held one, and plasma blasters & rocket launchers of other games simply leave me bored. Some people DO like reality.

And keeping drugs/etc in or out of the game... Honestly, I don't give a shit. I leave parenting (and choosing games for kids) to actual parents and would be really happy if they'd keep the f**k out of video game making, in return. I decide what I put into my game, and if someone sees it dangerous, well, don't play it.

[TwinMoon]

Totally agree with InCreator there.

I would love to see a political game - why does it all have to be sf and non-realistic detective settings?

[InCreator]

About political games overall (not adventure) -- the situation is hopeless. I play Shadow President, Hidden Agenda and Conflict: Middle East Political Simulator - all games pre-windows era, and quietly cry. For last 10 years. (If you ever wanted a hint on politics sim, I just named gold... and they're abandonware)

Nobody haven't made a decent political game in a decade. Revolution:Republic was total suckage, I won't even start on this dumb US election game of this year, and Supreme Ruler is a mix of non-existing gameplay and really bad JPG of world satellite map. There is some good games of historic eras but none of ours.

There is no realistic, yet enjoyable political games besides first three I named.
Unless I make one, there won't probably be one.

[Makeout Patrol]

It doesn't have to be a political simulator - all it needs is to have some political rhetoric in the narrative. Take Beneath a Steel Sky, for instance - it's a serious, mature game, it makes statements on class relations, environmental issues, corporate capitalism, and other such topics, and is above all an enjoyable, engaging game.

Humor and maturity are absolutely compatible. I would love to see more games make interesting, progressive statements about social and political issues, and I think most other gamers would, too, as long as the points aren't made with sledgehammers.

[blueskirt]

Adventure games are more or less interactive novels. Why couldn't be content as various as in novels?
A story is a story. A book is a book. There could be anything written there. How is adventure game SO different?
And what could be BETTER way to address "those kind of things"?! A RPG or shooter or fighter where immense is broken when player delivers his attention to stats or equipment or damage bars instead of diving into plot?
Or... what else? I really don't understand this. What could ever work better than adventure genre?

Totally agree with InCreator there.

I would love to see a political game - why does it all have to be sf and non-realistic detective settings?

First, you are confusing adventure games with visual novels. Adventure games aren't interactive stories. Adventure games are a blending of puzzle solving and stories telling. You talk about immersion, but tell me, how would adventure game genre, in its current state, with its puzzles that stick out of nowhere, dialogue puzzles, fetch quests, downtime when you are stuck and what not would be any different from action or RPG genre, tell me.

You talk about immersion but if most adventure games nowaday have unserious, comical or investigative stories that's because the current puzzle solving gameplay mechanics blend more in that kind of stories, just like the mechanics of RTS or FPS blend more to action, war or violent stories. Games aren't books. In a game, the story and the gameplay must go hand in hand.

I am tired of this self brainwashing that the adventure game community in general did to itself in the last decade by repeating the magical sentences that "Adventure games are interactive stories", "Adventure games tell stories" or "If it tell a story, it's an adventure game" in a vain attempt that it become the definition of an adventure game. Do adventure games have the monopoly on featuring interactive stories? Last I checked the magical "interactive/telling stories" definition also applied to RPG, it also applied to recent years FPS, it also applied to countless of other games in countless other genres. Adventure games are not interactive stories, they're a blending of puzzle solving and stories telling, they're games where you use your brain to overcome the various problems you are facing and progress in the story.

If adventure games were about telling stories, why the heck did they add all those puzzles to the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy game, why not just take the book and add interactions to it? If adventure games is the best genre to tell stories, where are the full blown action, violent or war stories? Has it ever occured to someone that "use gun on guy", "use gun on other guy" is probably the stupidest puzzle out there? You don't see that kind of stories because adventure games have this whole puzzle solving aspect which totally conflict with the story itself. The mere fact that lot of stories cannot be told in adventure games because they conflict directly with the current gameplay mechanics should be enough to destroy that silly idea that adventure games are the best video games genre out there to tell stories.

Where has this brainwashing gotten us to? With all this emphasis on stories, character development, narration, people have completly forgotten or ignored the gameplay aspect of adventure games, that puzzle solving is still the bread and butter of adventure gaming. When was the last time you played Day of the Tentacle or Monkey Island 1 and 2 and paid attention to the brilliance of the hints and puzzles instead of the story? It's because we spend so little finding new puzzle solving mechanics that we're stuck in unserious, comical or investigative stories in the first place. If we want to move this genre forward, if we want to stop telling comical, unserious or investigative stories in adventure game, we need to update the puzzle mechanics, we need to find new way to present puzzles so they don't completly stand out like a tree in a field and so puzzles aren't completly stupid and unimaginative like "This object is out of reach", "This door is locked" or "I need to bake cookies for my dad, let's decypher my mom's recipe!" that generally involve keys, rocks, sticks, ropes, tools or following the police procedures.

That's the problem serious stories in adventure games are facing. Either the puzzles are imaginative and creative but completly stand out of the story and feel tacked on. Either the puzzles fit in the story but are so stupidly unimaginative they aren't fun at all to solve or just plain too easy. And in many cases, they're both unimaginative and completly stand out, like those Myst kind of contraptions used as a crutch to slow down the player progression or add some difficulty to the game. Heck, I played some indie "adventure" games where so much emphasis was put on the story that the games featured no puzzles at all. Is that were people want this genre to go to?

That's pretty much it. I could go on and point out how Full Throttle, with its special action verbs and its puzzles subtly hidden in its action sequences, is a shining example of how new puzzles mechanics would greatly improve the range of stories adventure games can tell, but I think I am spending far too much time voicing my opinion for a genre I barely play or care for anymore these days, plus I'm out of forum post typing juice.

[DazJ]

I really don't see the point in this discussion, sorry. Why SHOULD adventure games be serious? Surely it's the player's choice when they buy/download a game as to whether or not they want to play a serious or funny game? There's a whole spectrum of games out there to choose from.

[blueskirt]

I really don't see the point in this discussion, sorry. Why SHOULD adventure games be serious? Surely it's the player's choice when they buy/download a game as to whether or not they want to play a serious or funny game? There's a whole spectrum of games out there to choose from.

The same could be said for the Cursor Confusion thread. It's not a useless discussion. The future of this genre rests in the hands of the game makers rather than the players, but I think we should be free to state our opinion on the current state of adventure games, what turn we hope the community will take next and what would be better for the genre, in hope it will inspire someone to try something different.

Also, this player's choice argument works for books, movies and other medias that actually have a whole spectrum to choose from but we don't swim in enough in serious games for this argument to apply. When it come to serious game, I can remember Passage, Hush, Virtual Silence, Cloud, The Graveyard... that's pretty much it. The last one is not really a game and none of them are adventure games.

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[Lady_Seph]

I agree with you Darth Mandarb when you say"I make the games I want to make", but would elaborate, I'd only consider making a game that I'd personally want to play too. It doesn't really matter if it looks like MI or is something more serious.

When you're involved in producing a game commercially you have far more practical constraints on what you can do. In fact as it turns out you have very little creative freedom and never enough time to produce something that you're satisfied with. This is because because the man paying your wages is telling you what to do. His shareholders tell him what to do. Unless it's "financially viable"  it just doesn't get produced no matter how original or creative your concept may be.

The commercial gaming world is just not as diverse as it used to be 15 years ago and is now pretty much owned lock stock and barrel by a few giant companies. With few exceptions (only Portal springs to mind recently) independently developed commercial games are few and far between. It didn't used to be this way but times have changed and diversity in gaming has been diminished away as a result.  Big business discovered that vast amounts of money can be made churning out the same game over and over to adrenaline junkies and they will buy them because they are addicted. What is produced is dictated by sales figures, pure and simple.

Things are looking somewhat more optimistic recently with the success of Nintendo branching into the casual gaming market, and producing and supporting the production of a whole glut of games that do not pander to the generally recognised gamer demographic of a 16-25 year old male. However, true creativity will always come from gamers themselves not a bunch of suits sat around a board room table.

Places like this are so very important. Over the past two years played games from AGS that I'd consider to be far better than any adventure games currently available commercially. There is a wealth of imagination and talent here I'm always telling people about it!

If people do not make games that they personally enjoy playing then where will diversity come from if not here and places like here?

Sadly there is no room for pure creativity in the world of commercial gaming. You're just expected to produce something hopefully bug free to a deadline, ship it then repeat.

I'd really like to produce my own game but I don't know if I'm brave enough yet, I'm a bit rusty. There's a game lurking inside me somewhere, but I just don't know if I should let it out  :o

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