Bush Dilemma

[Darth Mandarb]

Yeah, I'd like to say that I'd like the electorial college thing gone, it seems like my vote dosen't mean crap here in Idaho...But there must be a good reason for it?

There was a good reason for it.  It gave small population states an "equal" (proportionally) ammount of influence on the election.  It was designed in a time when people didn't have radio or TV and if the president didn't campaign in their area they'd have no real clue who he was.

Now, with mass media, it's a tool corrupt politicians can use to put the wrong man in office.

It made NO sense what-so-ever that a state can have the majority of the popular vote going to Gore yet somehow  still go to Bush because of the electoral college.  There's NO sense/logic in that at all and in my opinion makes voting completely useless.

We have the technology to tally EVERY single vote that is cast and actually elect the person who gets the most.

That's how it should work.

[MrColossal]

then again DM, always always always oppose any voting system that doesn't have a paper trail.

especially one for president of [insert country]

[remixor]

Bush is ANYTHING but a conservative.

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I second that.

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Seriously, Jackhammer, what the hell are you talking about?

[MrColossal]

i think he means that he isn't conserving anything

[Las Naranjas]

He might be confusing Conservative with conservative and perhaps even old skool Conservatism because of the radical Conservatism that led those that invent and promote the use of misleading floating signifiers to term this school of thought, such as it exists in any comprehensible form, Neo-Conservatism.

[MrColossal]

or he's being witty

* MrColossal checks the density of the ags forums

hey it's going up!

[TheYak]

* MrColossal checks the density of the ags forums

hey it's going up!

And again with confusing dual-meaning words.  I've got a hunch we've got some natural politicians here.

[Nacho]

Bah....  don´t want to enter in this conversation because I can´t, I am not really aware of the U.S. politics.

I am quite conservative, because in my country the "good old socialists boys" came saying that they were going to create 1,000,000 employes. What happened after 12 years of socialism? Spain had 8,000,000 of unemployed (22% of the population) and the highest rate of corruption in history.

Now, with the "fascists" popular government, the uneployment rate is at 9%, and Spain is said to be the 8th economy in the world.

In my country, socialism=lie to the people with good intentions to get corrupted once in the government. (And bad, awful management...)

In the U.S. is different, the republicans and democrats are not so radicalised in his economy management, and sometimes the differences can just be seen in their attitudes and way of behave.

What I am saying is that I would probably have vote Kerry/democrats in the next elections, and I would haven´t voted for nobody 4 years ago (If I were american).

But if I haven´t voted for nobody, I wouldn´t be heavily complaining because I didn´t use my chance to decide when I had my change. That´s democracy.

People is so used to it that they´re relaxed when they´re in front of a ballot box... Voting has to be an exercise of reflection. It is funny when somebody complains with long posts about politics and when you ask him:
"What did you do when you had your opportunity? Who did you vote for?"
They ask:
"I didn´t vote"
(This is not refered to Jackhammer, of course, I am talking in general... I am thiking that probably Jack wasn´t old enough when the previous elections)

I´ve been told before that I am quite conservative. And I told also before that voting should be an exercise of reflection. Aren´t this sentences contradictory? If you´re conservative you should allways vote conservative... Well, no. None of the systems is perfect and sometimes is necessary to change the management system to another. As you can see, I am envolved in politic in my country, I can express my oppinion... But expressiong your oppinion without having voted of being foreign is, at least... dare.

[Andail]

The dangerous thing is that many americans tend to think Bush is just a humourous figure, a harmless moron who, by a quirk of nature, ended up in the white house, end of story.
They say "Come on, he's just a nice countryside boy who got a job too complicated for him, give him a break! He's quite fun after all!"
"Anyone would make mistakes in such a stressful position!"
"He means well, deep inside."

I think this is the dangerous thing; people wave him off as harmless, childish but entertaining, quite handsome, not worse than any other president candidate.

Please don't patronise him. Support him rather than think of him as harmless.
I myself think he's actively made the world a worse place to live in, by a number of decisions, and cannot think of him as a hilarious jester.

Minimi, since I know your opinion isn't the prevailing one in Holland (I've been there myself and enjoyed hearing other ordinary hollanders' views on the issue, despite the friendliness expressed in the phrase "Amsterdam, my favourite country", coined by mr Bush) I'm not worried, just a bit surprised.

The original question is interesting though. I guess most people would have problems seeing somebody die, even if it was Hitler himself.

[shbaz]

My dictionary definition (I use a program called wordweb, usually very similar to webster, etc.)

Conservative
(noun)
1. A person with conservative ideas and opinions

(adjective)
1. Resistant to change (I can think of a lot of changes)
2. Opposed to liberal reforms (that he sort of is)
3. Avoiding excess (Not hard to see he doesn't do that)
4. Unimaginatively conventional (conventional wisdom would suggest that respecting the UN and stripping constitutional rights would be a bad thing)
5. Conforming to the standards and conventions of the middle class (I honestly see him as catering to large corporations and the wealthy)

Liberal
(noun)
1. A person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties (NOT that)
2. A person who favors an economic theory of laisez-faire and self-regulating markets (he favors that, since he's getting rid of our pollution laws and letting companies choose profit or cleanliness)

(adjective)
1. Showing or characterized by broad-mindedness (nope)
2. Having political or social views favoring reform and progress (Difficult to say, depends on whether you mean good or bad reform and progress)
3. Tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition (while he poses as being very religious I'd call spitting in the face of the world and doing whatever we want a little untraditional)
4. Given or giving freely (to companies like Halliburton and Enron)
5. Not literal (i'd change this one to not literate)


I'd say he's neither, he has the worst of both worlds. I'm speaking strictly by the dictionary definition though.

[Timosity]

This is quite funny while we're on the topic

http://transload.net/~zaphod/text/pointcpoint.html

[TheYak]

Funny, even if rather one-sided.  I, for one, stopped seeing Bush as a harmless dolt shortly after his election.  I read an post on  another forum that sounds a bit paranoid. The author wonders whether Bush would give up the presidency readily or whether he might not declare a state of emergency  or somesuch instead.  A little far-fetched, but creepily within the realm of possibility.  After all, we've only recently learned how conditional free-speech can be. "If you protest anti-terrorist activities, you are a terrorist." (Paraphrased Bush administration statement)

[taryuu]

But if I haven´t voted for nobody, I wouldn´t be heavily complaining because I didn´t use my chance to decide when I had my change. That´s democracy.

People is so used to it that they´re relaxed when they´re in front of a ballot box... Voting has to be an exercise of reflection. It is funny when somebody complains with long posts about politics and when you ask him:
"What did you do when you had your opportunity? Who did you vote for?"
They ask:
"I didn´t vote"

Can't you exercise your right as a citizen to abstain from voting?  if i don't support any candidate, isn't my denying them my vote just as valid and democratic  a decision as someone who votes for a candidate?

And as far as all the bush-bashing goes, i think a most of it is so completely juvenile and nonsensical that it doesn't even merit responding to.  

Most of the anti-bush rhetoric tries to simplify extremely complex issues into 5 word sound bites.  

bush kills thousands of afghanis
bush creates trillion dollar defecit
bush lets companies destroy environment

people have no idea how complicated all of these issues are.  by simplifying them down to nothing you create a nation of ignorant people with uniformed opinions on everything.

it's fine to criticize bush, but i agree with squinky

I really don't think Bush is as stupid as everyone claims. How did he get to be president if he's so dumb? I don't get that part..

when you just call him stupid you trivialize your argument.  i mean he graduated from harvard AND yale.  he's obviously not a mildly mentally retarded person

there are plenty of issues that you critcize bush on without broad generalizing and infantile insults.  
like his AWOL period http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/02/10/bush_credited_for_guard_drills/

or about the 28 blanked out pages of the 9/11 report
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/30/world/main565782.shtml

anyway hate bush or love bush, what he's done is not deserving of a place in the seventh santum of hell.  if you want to criticize somone you have to offer alternatives to their actions of ideas.  that's what's known as "constructive criticism"

The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.
- Albert Einstein

[TheYak]

Constructive criticism can easily be derived from any of the comments I've made. Merely take the negative of said action and you've got it. I mentioned environmental issues, part of that section concerning the Kyoto convention. My constructive criticism was mentioned there. I thought that even if he didn't think it wise to agree wholeheartedly, he could've delayed the decision or suggested a compromise.  Instead, he choose tactless tactics and smug refusal.  

Broad generalizations are perfectly appropriate for this forum.  It's a general discussion area. People aren't expected to go into depth. I rather thought that my post was long and specific enough but I suppose I could've quoted magazine articles, web-links & books upon the subject.  I didn't because 1) would've involved re-proving what many people know 2) would've lengthened an already verbose post and 3) anybody can quote similar sources directly disproving my own (and vice versa).  I assume your post wasn't directed at me, just defending my portion of it.  I, for one, didn't use any of your "sound bites," and did mention some of the 3rd but inserted a fact as well.  

These are some of my conclusions about him: Bush is more for the corporations than for the people. While this is nothing new to presidency, he has flaunted his decisions and justified them in the name of patriotism.  With regard to his competency, he didn't perform well in either of the colleges you mentioned, acted irresponsibly and delinquently with his friends, he was given companies to run which he thoroughly killed, and makes errors in speeches & statements that are not simple mistakes but show that he doesn't understand half of what he says.  Trying to come up with positives, he handled the immediate post-9/11 era well, most of what he's doing is trying to strengthen the nation, and while I don't agree with the motivations behind it or war itself, he's at least done a decent job of showing terrorists that the US won't back down and will pursue vengeance at nearly any cost.  

On an entirely different note, the non-voting statement you made makes a good point. I can't claim that I was quite that high-minded when I didn't vote last election.  It was more of a feeling of: I don't like either of these guys and don't have enough information. If I had voted, it would've been as a blindfolded person deciding that he had to take a step in some direction, despite the fact that it's probably safer to stand still.  Since then, especially because of the quality of this administration, I've tried to educate myself better politically so that I can make a more informed decision.

The Squinky re-quoted makes a decent point. It's a very logical response to claims of Bush's stupidity.  I also (sorry) have to consider it a bit naïve. I don't want to persecute people's faith that the system works, so...  I'll agree in principle.  He's not unintelligent.  He's incompetent.

I'm willing to consider other points but the primary reason Bush pisses me the hell off is that he's got a constant attitude (as demonstrated by his legislation, actions, statements & demeanor) that says, "You, the people, do not know what's best for you. I do."

[DGMacphee]

And as far as all the bush-bashing goes, i think a most of it is so completely juvenile and nonsensical that it doesn't even merit responding to.

Then why are you responding?

Most of the anti-bush rhetoric tries to simplify extremely complex issues into 5 word sound bites.

bush kills thousands of afghanis
bush creates trillion dollar defecit
bush lets companies destroy environment

So what? Pro-Bush propaganda does the same thing!

In fact, you can even do it in under 5 words with pro-Bush propaganda!

See:

Bush reduced unemployment (wow, that was three words!)
Bush opened free trade (wow, four words!)
Bush captured Saddam (3 words again!)

when you just call him stupid you trivialize your argument.  I mean he graduated from harvard AND yale.  he's obviously not a mildly mentally retarded person

And Hitler was a vegetarian, hardly drank, didn't smoke and was an artist, so obviously he must have been as peaceful as a Hindu cow!

Just because someone graduates from Harvard AND Yale, doesn't mean they're intelligent.

Besides, why's a Harvard and Yale graduate spouting stupid shit like this:

"More and more of our imports are coming from overseas." (Yeah, no shit, genius!)

"If you don't stand for anything, you don't stand for anything!" (Holy crap, he's right!)

"I want to have a ballistic defense system so that we can make the world more peaceful, and at the same time I want to reduce our own nuclear capacities to the level commiserate with keeping the peace." (Brilliant! He wants to raise the level of nuclear defense as well as lower it! He is such a magician!)

On Gore's tax plan: "It's going to require numerous IRA agents." (I love trade agreements with the Irish!)

"I know that human being and fish can coexist peacefully." (I am not fucking you: He actually said this! PEACE TO FISHES!!)

You see, when someone becomes famous for spouting such stupid shit (i.e. "Bushism"), then you have to wonder if they actually are retarded or not.

In comparison, Bush makes Yogi Berra seem gifted and Sam Goldwyn eloquent.

there are plenty of issues that you critcize bush on without broad generalizing and infantile insults.

Great, that saves me having to type them!

like his AWOL period http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/02/10/bush_credited_for_guard_drills/

It's not that I'm against what Bush has done in the past...

or about the 28 blanked out pages of the 9/11 report
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/30/world/main565782.shtml

Nor am I against Bush's shifty politics...

It's just I think he's an evil robot sent back from the future come to kill us all.

anyway hate bush or love bush, what he's done is not deserving of a place in the seventh santum of hell.

Yeah, Bush wouldn't want to move back home with the folks.

if you want to criticize somone you have to offer alternatives to their actions of ideas.  that's what's known as "constructive criticism"

So, you're saying we should offer "constructive criticism" on how Bush can be a better president?

Okay, step 1: resign

Done!

The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.
- Albert Einstein

"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush

[Nacho]

Taryuu: Of course people have the right to abstain, but if they do, they loss in some way the reason to complain.... It sounds harsh, but you can´t say, FUCK! Bush has been elected? I hate him!!! if you haven´t voted, specially in the past U.S. elections when the abstention meant an implicit agreement with the final result. If you know that a politician is going to do it awfully bad, you can vote the other, even if you don´t completely agree with him.

[TheYak]

I think another good aspect to Taryuu's point is that not voting is also part of your voting right.  We have the freedom to choose not to participate.  Nobody comes around and forces us to make a choice.  Not voting really isn't too much different than workers going on strike.  There is some wisdom to be found in not making a choice when you have no idea what choice to make, leaving it to the more educated/devoted people to choose.  Of course, this argument is someone suspect since it takes for granted that the majority of voters know what the hell they're voting into office.  Farl, your argument is valid but not absolute.  It is, however, the reason I'll be voting this election. I want to be able to say either, "I didn't vote for him," or, "I'm, sorry, I helped put him there."

I find the every-vote-matters argument a bit frivolous.  Due to the workings of our system, the majority of people didn't vote for Bush. However, our chosen Voting Guys did.  What worries me most, particularly during this administration, is that most Americans don't seem to give a shit about their freedoms.  No massive protests after anti-Bush protests were held in check by the FBI.  No uproar after the Electoral College voted against the populous.  The majority didn't bat an eyelash at the passing of the Patriot Act and the others passed soon afterwards.  Recommendation: Rename the USA to the United State of Apathy.

[Darth Mandarb]

"More and more of our imports are coming from overseas." (Yeah, no shit, genius!)

This isn't really 'spouting shit' ... Imports from Canada and South America aren't considered 'over-seas'.  We import a lot from the Americas.

Now, the rest of that is 'spouting shit' ... you'd think his advisors would 'advise' him to think before he speaks

YakSpit finally pointed out what has been bouncing around in my head.  The man is imcompetent.

Having said that, I still respect the office of the president.  Not necessarily the man, but the office.

Do I wish it was somebody else?  Yes.
Do I have a clue who I wish it was?  No.
Does it make a difference what I want?  No.

United States of Apathy indeed

Farlander

Of course people have the right to abstain, but if they do, they loss in some way the reason to complain

In some way, but they can still say "I didn't vote 'cause I didn't want either of them in there!"  I don't think not liking one is a good reason to vote the other if you just dislike him less.

There's 2 things that GeeDub has done that I've wanted to see a President do for a long time:
1) Send a big "Fuck You" to global terrorists
2) Remove Saddam

At least he accomplished that much.

[Andail]

The man is imcompetent.

Suitable moment for typo, DM

I agree of course. Although Taryuu thinks George's graduating from Yale guarantees a certain amount of intelligence, I think that's more a question of money donations and similar.

I can't understand how any thinking, normally talented person can consider Bush an intelligent man. Even if many of my previous standpoints may be expressions of subjective political opinions, this remains for me undisputable - whatever you think of his policies or his performance in the white house; that man is not intelligent!

[DGMacphee]

"More and more of our imports are coming from overseas." (Yeah, no shit, genius!)

This isn't really 'spouting shit' ... Imports from Canada and South America aren't considered 'over-seas'.  We import a lot from the Americas.

Actually, I think you meant to say Canada and Mexico.

Bush's quote goes as follows: "It is clear our nation is reliant upon big foreign oil. More and more of our imports come from overseas."

The US imports nearly 49,000,000 barrels of oil from Canada and Mexico each.

The US imports hardly any oil from South America.

See it right here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/petroleum_supply_monthly/current/txt/table_35.txt

Also, the term "overseas" is sometimes used to describe foreign markets, not just markets "over the sea": http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=overseas

And since Mexico and Canda are still foreign markets to the US, the phrase "More and more of our imports are coming from overseas" is still stupid shit from a very powerful retard.

There's 2 things that GeeDub has done that I've wanted to see a President do for a long time:
1) Send a big "Fuck You" to global terrorists
2) Remove Saddam

Meanwhile, he's fucked the ecomony, withdrew from countless peace and environmental treaties, alienated minorities, and tried to place laws that invade privacy more so than they do now.

But yay! He got Saddam! He said "Fuck you" to terrorists! Everyone rejoice!

I'll just repost what Timosity posted, put my feet up and let the good times roll: http://transload.net/~zaphod/text/pointcpoint.html