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Author Topic: Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th  (Read 8144 times)

Re:Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th
« Reply #20 on: 05 Jan 2004, 21:16 »
A couple of smartarse corrections below.

Because, really, if you want to be technical, the piano and harp are both percussion instruments, along with drums and cymbals and such. So are we talking just your standard percussion, or ALL sorts?

No matter how technical you want to be, you can't twist instrument classifications to somehow make the harp a percussion instrument. It's a plucked chordophone. Like the guitar.

And trying to incorporate a trumpet into that is (imho) just silly, because it's designed for the harmonics of consecutive 4ths  :'(

A trumpet plays the harmonic series. A modern trumpet has valves to make it fully chromatic, and as far as I know there are no consecutive fourths involved. Also, this looks to me like a fairly ordinary jazz ensemble, but with a sitar. I can't see much of a problem in this.

That aside, I might actually do something for this one, although, being rather busy at the moment, I probably won't.

BerserkerTails

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Re:Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th
« Reply #21 on: 05 Jan 2004, 21:45 »
I used the C Harmonic Minor scale for most of the song, using all four instruments, and I personally thought that my tune came out very Indian indeed. In my opinion, when sequecing in midi, you can do anything, as the instruments are only patches, not counterparts of the real thing. Though I could just as easily play a pentatonic or harmonic minor scale on my own trumpet and make it sound good. In fact, I do that quite a bit for warmup.
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Peter Thomas

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Re:Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th
« Reply #22 on: 05 Jan 2004, 22:16 »
A couple more "smart-ass" corrections.

No, Archangel, I am NOT saying that you may never put trumpets in thirds. Put them in 7ths for all I care. I'm saying that the natural reverbrance of the bell works BEST with fourths. The sitar, being a petatonic raga instrument, works better with the notes of, believe it or not, the pentatonic scale (ie - NOT the same notes as the trumpet)

To Eldkatt, the harp most certainly IS percussion. Look up any half-way decent music book.  Although it is a chordophone, it is more closely related to a piano 'without the box'. It has 47 strings and by means of pedals the tension of the strings are adjusted thus producing different pitches. It is only a string instrument if it can be plucked AND bowed, and is only a FULL chordophone if it does not have 'pedals'. By definition, this makes the harp part of the percussion family. Thus, neither is the guitar a member of the strings family, but rather part of its own group.

And, while the trumpet does have valves to make it chromatic, this wasn't my point. read my response to archangel.

*sigh*.... why is everything so subjective these days?? It was a whole lot easier when someone stood over your shoulder and told you EXACTLY what to believe...
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Re:Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th
« Reply #23 on: 06 Jan 2004, 05:48 »
You guys are ruining music for me.

Actually, I don't want to start that argument up again.  ::)

Re:Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th
« Reply #24 on: 06 Jan 2004, 06:26 »
Electric bass or organ may not be in Raga, but it sure is in Hindi Pop!

My entry will be uploaded shortly.

Peter Thomas

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Re:Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th
« Reply #25 on: 06 Jan 2004, 06:53 »
Sorry, Trap. Didn't mean to argue  :-[

Forget I even breathed.....

Edit: You know what... rather than start a fight (which I really would rather not), I think I WILL enter this contest after all, but I'll do it in a style COMPLETLY unsuited to these instruments just to get my point across, without having to add a frowning emoticon :)

Maybe I'll enter..... maybe.. depends how lazy I feel...
« Last Edit: 06 Jan 2004, 06:55 by Peter Thomas »
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Re:Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th
« Reply #26 on: 06 Jan 2004, 17:24 »
To Eldkatt, the harp most certainly IS percussion. Look up any half-way decent music book.  Although it is a chordophone, it is more closely related to a piano 'without the box'. It has 47 strings and by means of pedals the tension of the strings are adjusted thus producing different pitches. It is only a string instrument if it can be plucked AND bowed, and is only a FULL chordophone if it does not have 'pedals'. By definition, this makes the harp part of the percussion family. Thus, neither is the guitar a member of the strings family, but rather part of its own group.

You need to read up on instrument classification. And stop mixing scientific classifications with traditional ones. Give me a music book that lists the harp as a percussion instrument and I will gladly toss it in the rubbish bin.

However, I'm a bit curious about this thing about the natural reverbance of the trumpet bell that somehow involves consecutive fourths. The clarino register being sort of an exception, the possibilities of playing what it seems like you're describing are rather limited on the natural trumpet.

(For those who might care, I'm writing this because I think it's fun. If it makes anyone angry I will shut up.)

Re:Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th
« Reply #27 on: 06 Jan 2004, 17:55 »
Quote
(For those who might care, I'm writing this because I think it's fun. If it makes anyone angry I will shut up.)

Although I cant say I enjoy these sort of discussions I think most people dont object to them as long as they appear to actually seek some sort of answer and isn t simply an excuse to boast about ones theoretical knowledge (which in my experience seldom correlate with good musicwriting).
Looking for a writer

Peter Thomas

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Re:Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th
« Reply #28 on: 06 Jan 2004, 22:16 »
To Eldkatt,

I can't really list the names of any books that say the harp is percussion, but I picked up a leaflet from the Australian Conservatorium of Music that listed it as 'pitched percussion', much like a glockenspiel or vibraphone. I know there is a lot of debate going on about its family classification (strings or percussion??), but I, personally agree with the Con when they say it's percussion. I'm not trying to call anyone 'wrong', as such, because there is no conclusive evidence. Here is why: Stringed instruments are referred to as chordophones. Vibrating instruments are referred to as idophones. Violin falls into the first category, percussion in the last. The problem is, the harp is BOTH a chordophone and an idiophone. However I claim it to be (more closely related to) percussion because it relies more heavily on the vibration and tension of the strings, rather than the noise of the strings themselves.
Just to make this more confusing, a lot of music 'experts' even claim the harp to be part of the membranophones family (Vibrating Membrane instruments). I don't agree with that, however.

With regards to the trumpet, I don't think I've described my point fully, and it's caused a bit of confusion. The trumpet will work with ANY classical piece of of music, because it is designed as a harmonic accompaniment (originally) to the piano. And every note on the piano, when played, also plays the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 7th (obviously so quiet that you can't really notice). That is why the trumpet works so well with classical: it complements the piano, even when played in 3rds, or 6ths, because the piano is still sounding fourths no matter what you play. The indian raga, however, doesn't work like that. Instruments such as the Kasht Tarang, Chimpta, Bansuri, Mukhavina etc, etc, only play the base note and the fifth. That's why they belong with the pentatonic raga (I know, I know, doesn't work in all instances, but that's just music for you). Trying to play the trumpet with a sitar, for example, would give you this breakdown:
C on piano = C, E, F, Bb
C (untransposed, of course) on trumpet = C, F
G on sitar = G, D, F

So at any one time you have C, D, E, F, G, Bb playing all at once. Play it on the piano and you can tell it's a musical nightmare.

Hope this clarifies things a bit  :P If not, just give me a buzz :)
« Last Edit: 06 Jan 2004, 22:19 by Peter Thomas »
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Re:Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th
« Reply #29 on: 06 Jan 2004, 22:33 »
According to your argument, peter, just playing middle C on the piano alone would itself sound hideous, since it would play "C, E, F, and Bb". Now sure, harmonics plays an important part in the sound of an instrument, but aren't you taking this a bit far? Did Bach really give a **** about the harmonics of the instruments he was composing with? Come to that, did he actually even know whether something was a chordophone or a stringophone or a bullshitophone?

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Re:Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th
« Reply #30 on: 07 Jan 2004, 01:48 »
If you make a midi file, none of it is real instruments anyway. It's just recorded samples pitched up and down. You can take a complicated piano part and play it with the sitar if you want. And if it sounds good, then why not go with it?

Peter Thomas

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Re:Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th
« Reply #31 on: 07 Jan 2004, 03:06 »
Actually, Archangel, you are absolutely right. The piano WILL sound the E, F and Bb. But, as I said, it's so soft you don't really notice. Just sit at the piano, press one of the lower C's, and hold it with the pedal. If you listen carefully you CAN hear those 'extra' notes.

I don't think I'm taking this too far at all. If I was swearing at people and telling them that I am right because I say so, then I'd be a prick. But Eldkatt and I have been discussing this issue. Not because we hate each other, but because we are genuinely interested in each other's opinions. I'm sure Bach didn't care if it was a crapophone or not, but Eldkatt and I do.

:)

To trap, I'd have to agree with you. If it sounds good, then go with it. But it won't sound good if you're screwing with the very nature of music. Most people don't care, and that's fine with me. I'm takling to the people that do.
« Last Edit: 07 Jan 2004, 03:10 by Peter Thomas »
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Re:Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th
« Reply #32 on: 07 Jan 2004, 05:39 »
The piano WILL sound the E, F and Bb. But, as I said, it's so soft you don't really notice.

Those partials are always sounding, but they're actually part of the composite tone.

Quote
The trumpet will work with ANY classical piece of of music, because it is designed as a harmonic accompaniment (originally) to the piano.

Er, I believe the trumpet preceeds the piano by hundreds of years. And I think someone mentioned clarino playing, where trumpet plays highly florid melodic passages (which I guess was only in baroque though. I don't know a lot about the history of the trumpet before that, but you're probably right about the early trumpets being used mainly for harmony. But it's been centuries since those primitive stages of the trumpet, and it's more than ok to use them for melodic purposes).

Quote
That is why the trumpet works so well with classical: it complements the piano, even when played in 3rds, or 6ths, because the piano is still sounding fourths no matter what you play.

I don't think I understand. The piano is always sounding 4ths? Wouldn't it be sounding every note of the harmonic series?

Trap:
Quote
If you make a midi file, none of it is real instruments anyway

I'm kind of taking this out of context, but whether it's synthesized or not, it's still sound with wavelengths and all that, so the same principles apply to the harmonics. I know that's not really what you were talking about, just wanted to say it. :)


Peter Thomas

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Re:Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th
« Reply #33 on: 07 Jan 2004, 09:14 »
Yeah, the trumpet DID precede the piano by a long way, however back then it wasn't really considered an 'entertainment' instrument. It was used strictly for regal processions and other various tidbits that didn't need real harmony (the closest they ever came was just playing the 3rd and 5th. Maybe they created a suspension or two if they were lucky. But things like 7ths were definitely out at that stage). It wasn't until the concept of 'orchestras' came in that the people wrote 'music' for trumpets, and it sounded good because of its natural harmonics. Call it coincidence, but it worked...

The piano sounding fourths is kind of complex to explain, and I'm not sure how to put into words. Not every note of the scale sounds when you press a key, because there is no way of knowing if you are playing the 'D' from A minor, or the 'D' from G major. It would be cool if the piano could tell, though :P It basically sounds a 4th up (or down, I can't be bothered double checking) from the note you play. This doesn't require any intelligence from the piano, and it makes sense, really, since your voice will do EXACTLY the same thing when you're in the shower. Just sing a deep note and hold if for as long as you can. Depending on how steady you can hold the note, as well as how musically atuned your ear is, you can hear the 7th. You'd be able to the hear the 4th if we had better hearing, too.

Hope that kinda clears things up... sorta...
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Re:Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th
« Reply #34 on: 07 Jan 2004, 10:35 »
The big problem with scientific instrument classification is that the Sachs-Hornbostel system (the one dealing with all the -phones) only classifies instruments by exactly what is vibrating. (Something always is if there's a sound.) In this system, a chordophone has tense strings which somehow vibrate (whether the vibration is caused by it being struck, like a piano, plucked, like a harp, or bowed, like a violin, falls outside the scope of this classification system). An ideophone is (instead of, as you say, 'vibrating instruments', which technically means every single instrument in existence) an instrument which produces sound by the vibration of some other material, be it wood, metal or something else, that is not a tense string or membrane. That means for example xylophone, marimba, and cymbals. Both a timpani and a gong is struck with a mallet of some kind, but the former is a membranophone and the latter an ideophone. This is enough to prove that this classification simply doesn't deal with how something is caused to vibrate.

Let's take a look at the harp by this background. What vibrates? Strings under tension, of course. It's rather obvious that this makes it a chordophone. (That, though, does not mean that it can't be percussion; see above.) You claim that it's also an ideophone. Is there any solid material involved, such as in a cymbal or a marimba? Not really.

While you could, and here I take back what I said earlier, call the harp a percussion instrument, why should you? No scientific classification system deals with it by how whatever vibrates is actually set into vibration (again, see above), so percussion doesn't mean a lot there. Traditionally the harp is in the string section of an orchestra, and I doubt anyone would disagree on that.

From one thing to another, the trumpet stuff is a bit confusing. The partials, or harmonics, that you mention are all present in all instruments, but in varying amounts. From this scientific perspective no timbres are all that unsuited for each other.

I still don't get where fourths come in. The scale of a natural trumpet (which, if we get historical, is what we're talking about) is the harmonic series, not a bunch of fourths. All brass instruments work this way. (And, I might add, there are few tuning and scale systems that are not somehow based on the harmonic series.)

I don't think I'm taking this too far at all. If I was swearing at people and telling them that I am right because I say so, then I'd be a prick. But Eldkatt and I have been discussing this issue. Not because we hate each other, but because we are genuinely interested in each other's opinions. I'm sure Bach didn't care if it was a crapophone or not, but Eldkatt and I do.

It's great that we both agree here. I'm not a fan of annoying people--as long as you find this as interesting as I do, I can't see any problem. (This is a discussion forum, isn't it? :P)

Re:Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th
« Reply #35 on: 07 Jan 2004, 21:38 »
Geez, don't even bother arguing *ahem* discussing the physics of instruments. Although they are important, they have little to do with improving your compositions. It is interesting, but maybe this would be better suited in a separate thread. There's an idea.

Here's my entry:

http://www.sonic.net/~schlae/herculeaneffort/entry1.mp3

Hmmm... I'm not really proud of the sitar or the trumpet. I was supposed to be working on the Apprentice 2 trailer then, and had little free time.

Ben

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Re:Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th
« Reply #36 on: 07 Jan 2004, 22:03 »
Finally.. It's good to see someone actually writing music instead of arguing over the rules. I'm really getting sick of this pompous music-theory masturbation that's been going on in a lot of the tune contests.

Geoff: I really love this tune. I think the sitar and trumpet sound good. The reverb you have on them makes them sound kind of distant, which I kind of like. Melodically, the tune kind of standard Jazz fare, but I don't listen to much modern (post 1960's) jazz anyway.. Overall it's god a great sound.

Re:Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th
« Reply #37 on: 07 Jan 2004, 22:28 »
We can make a separate thread for music-theory.

That reverb is actually my "garage band" reverb I made. Anyways, you can hear a real slap bass in this song. Heck with the music physics issues with synthesizing -- get the real instruments!

Peter Thomas

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Re:Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th
« Reply #38 on: 07 Jan 2004, 22:43 »
I can't really explain the technicalities of the trumpet as much as I would like. It's impossible for me to put it into words. I guess you'll just have to trust me.  :P

With regard to ideophones etc.... I agree whole-heartedly that the harp can, and IS (in some cases) classified as strings. I was just pointing out how the 'rules' of music can often be bent to suit your own personal spin on things.

Music-masturbation?? - Har! that is great! I must remember that one... however I must insist that I'm not trying to brag, and I don't believe Eldkatt is either. If we WERE bragging, I think we'd find a far more popular thread to start posting in. We're just talking (mainly to each other), and we're not making anyone listen to us or agree with us. It's just opinion.
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Re:Tune contest! Jan. 2nd - Jan. 9th
« Reply #39 on: 08 Jan 2004, 09:40 »
I can't really explain the technicalities of the trumpet as much as I would like. It's impossible for me to put it into words. I guess you'll just have to trust me.  :P

I'll accept that. :P But I'm interested. If you find a way to explain it, or some website that can, or whatever, do tell me.

Geoffkhan is right. This is a tune contest, so starting a new thread might be better. There doesn't seem to be much left to discuss, though. ;)

Ben, though, isn't. I won't bother saying anything about that, and Peter already has anyway.