What do you expect from a good GUI?

Started by Skio, Sat 07/08/2004 21:51:19

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rtf

Yeah, but it was a little different than most of the games.  I kept on getting confused.  It could have turned off some people.
I fail at art.

mätzyboy

Esseb: Now when you say it, the walk function is pretty useless. I think I should use left =walk/look, right = use/interact though, 'cause i think interacton should not be something you could make by mistake which would be the case with left click...

Releasethefrogs: Thanx for the nice offer, but the script I have is easily modified to do it, so I'll manage!

And, my verbcoin question still stands...

Ishmael

Quote from: mätzyboy on Wed 11/08/2004 16:14:29
Is there any games using a verb coin that stays up until the mouse leaves the GUI area?

Yes. Try Escape From Lurrilous, and Mard's Personal Little Revenge (which are both based on same template, I have it nearly finished lying somewhere on a not-internet-connectable computer....)
I used to make games but then I took an IRC in the knee.

<Calin> Ishmael looks awesome all the time
\( Ö)/ ¬(Ö ) | Ja minähän en keskellä kirkasta päivää lähden minnekään juoksentelemaan ilman housuja.

Hamelkart

Look at, Walk to, Talk to, Use, Load, Save, Quit and Inventory.

I like simple ones, which, for example Broken Sword games have.

Anym

Quote from: mätzyboy on Wed 11/08/2004 16:14:29Can anyone explain the benefits of the verb coin GUI? I find it very annoying, atleast when it's made like in FT and MI3 when you have to hold the mouse button pressed. I remember slipping on the mouse button causing "talk to/eat" instead of "pick up/use" and so on. Is there any games using a verb coin that stays up until the mouse leaves the GUI area?

I never found holding down my mouse-button down difficult or annoying, but I see how it could be, especially for users of a touchpad or trackpoint, so I agree that it would probably be best to make verb coins like menus, using one click to bring it up a second click to select the action. Of course, with FT and CMI both being LucasArts games, what's the worst that can happen for using MOUTH instead of HAND? ;)

IMHO there are two main benefits from verb-coins (and related interfaces, like context-sensitive pop-up menus), the first one being speed (even if you selected MOUTH instead of HAND on a hotspot by accident, trying again with the correct action is only a matter of seconds, much faster than both a SIERRA interface, where it would require 3-5 right-clicks, with the risk of skipping the correct verb again, and a SCUMM bar, where you'd have to move you mouse down to the correct verb or find and hit the correct hotkey and then move back to the hotspot to click it), the other one being that it doesn't use much screen space (unlike the SCUMM bar which always consumes the lower 1/4 of the screen where it is locked in place or to a lesser extent the SIERRA interface where the upper 1/8 can be used for graphics, but not for hotspots, because that's where the SCI bar pops up). Basically, those are the same advantadges why Microsoft introduced right-click context-sensitive pop-up menus for nearly everything in Windows 95 and kept them in the following versions. :P

I also find verb coins to be intuitive, but maybe that's just me and the other common adventure interfaces are already intuitive as well anyway, so isn't that much of a benefit.

As for games "using a verb coin that stays up until the mouse leaves the GUI area", the only one that I can think of at the moment using a verb coin in a strict sense is 7 Days a Skeptic, which combines verbs and inventory into one verb coin (altough "verb box" would probably a better name in this case), the only other games with a "real" verb coin I can think of right now being the two mentioned above, however there are a few games with a pop-up menu that acts similar to that as well (and pop-up-menus are basically, the same as verb coins, only with words in a list instead of icons in a circle), for example Lure of the Temptress, Touché or LSL7 (where is it combined with an optional parser). With menus, most of the time, a second click is required to make the menu vanish again though (moving away from it isn't enough), just like in Windows.
I look just like Bobbin Threadbare.

Bartimaeus

I also liked the MI3 GUI. Basically, I think a GUI should be smart, as small as possible and cleverly placed. You see, in MI3 a right click brings up the GUI. At least then it doesn't get in the way. In games like 'Apprentice' (which was a really good game) the GUI pops up every time your cursor hovers over the bottom of the screen. This can get REALLY annoying and almost ruins the game for the player.
The GUI should be a well thought out factor in making a game because it can really add or take from the overall gameplay.
~The more adventures I go on, the more sand I get in my shoes

Phemar


i love the lec gui. eg foa, mi2, dott. it's just so practical and it works, mate.

Bartimaeus

~The more adventures I go on, the more sand I get in my shoes

Phemar


lucasarts entertainment company, n00b...

Bartimaeus

~The more adventures I go on, the more sand I get in my shoes

qptain Nemo

IMHO, good gameplay MUST use keyboard. The great examples of old Legend games and Broken Sword 3 show how comfortable interface could be in absolutely different ways.

Ubel

Let's take Runaway for example. The cursor mode is always walk mode IF the cursor isn't over a hotspot when it turns to look, use or talk mode. And you can swich the mode only if the cursor is over a hotspot. This is pretty useful and easy. And, you don't need a gui! ;)

Abisso

I think that every single semplification of the interaction system goes directly against the "what you want to do-what the games make you do".
The most precise is obviously the text parser, even if not all players (and not anymore, anyway) like it. The MI3 interface instead, is the most far from that one, preferring user-friendlyness to a more precise system.

Personally I think that a "what's under the cursor" gui is absolutely necessary in a cursor based game, otherwise you'll not be sure if you clicked in the right spot or not. Even adding crosshair isn't enough for me, but could be the only other solution to the problem.

Personally, I created this system:

just one cursor, left clicking to walk, right-clicking to pop up a window with the possible interactions (always the same for every hotspot, unluckily). I used the ProcessClick function to make it work properly.
This approach at least solves the problem of the screen-space occupied by the GUI, and the need to cicle every cursor with the right click.

I can also suggest (if you want to use the standard Sierra interface) to at least  enable mouse_wheel scrolling, adding the possibility to cycle it also backwards (it's a very simple script). This helps a lot.
Welcome back to the age of the great guilds.

DanClarke

As the old saying goes, 'the best technology is invisible', so a good GUI for me should be intuitive, simple, self explanatory, and functional over any style. I find that SamnMax's GUI is the best that i've used in an adventure in my opinion, its all of the things ive listed, with the added bonus of giving more on screen room. (ok so sierra did technically pioneer this one, but SamNMax did it how it should be done :))

This is also the GUI type ill be using for TLOTLL.

voh

Am I the only one who really, really, REALLY dug the Beneath a Steel Sky interface? That GUI is my daddy and I will use it in whatever project I manage to create :P

I've got 2 one-room demo thingies ready with a working BASS-style interface, and I absolutely love it :)
Still here.

What a loser.

Gabriel Knight 1 had good GUIs? What? Those GUIs were horrible required too much thinking and too many clicks to try and get the right one. I think Monkey Island 3 has an amazing GUI. I like the  Quest for Glory 3/4 GUIs too they were perfect for the game and I loved them because they didnt require too much of trying all kings of clicks.

=The=Brat=

Yeh, i like BASS's stle. Anyone here played Lure Of The Tempress. Great GUI

PsychicHeart

it has to have a "Go back to Main Menu" option*1. And without a save/load game option, it's pretty crap*2. I dunno, but if it's a mind game than it probably should have a Hints thing for idiots. And finally, a Quit Game*3.

*1: Unless the game doesn't have one.
*2: Unless the game is Arcade or only has about two or three rooms.
*3: Unless a Main Menu option is there, and the Main Menu has a Quit Game object.
Formerly known as Flukeblake, Flukezy etc.

AlbinoPanther

when we look on the older games BASS is our choice(left click right clict realy do the trick) :D. And Discworld with animated speech icons, that is realy funny, and it is in the spirit of Pratchet books.
When we mention a spirit, we mean that every game(GUI for it) need to be in same mood(a lausy GUI can ruin a grate game).

Nowdays Black mirror is realy good example of an excelent GUI.

But on the other hand LEC GUI is pure with spirit that we mention, is DOTT true DOTT without a LEC GUI, NO it is not.

GUI and GAME in the same style and mood that is what we need.

Lordhoban

For the GUI I put together, I made sure to seperate the Interact from Pick-Up options, but for the most part, it is akin to the sierra interface except that all the pointers animate over hotspots (and of course, all the cursors are custom). I hate games that don't do this, forcing you many times to click all over the screen just to find something. On that note, I hate pixel hunting.

I remember the BASS interface being straight forward and to  the point, along with the Grim Fandango interface. And I also really like the 7 Days GUI, so that's one more vote for it.

I think what the GUI offers should be dependent on the game, but redundant options should be cut down unless they serve a consistent purpose (the Lucasarts verb games, for example. You could easily combine TURN ON/OFF into one). While I liked having options, I think the Lucasarts verb interface gave too many. There's always a balance to be maintained as well as logic. Otherwise, it can get frustrating.

And yes, after playing Space Quest 2 recently, I have reaffirmed how much I dislike text parsers. You either have to be on the same wavelength as the designer, or be able to read their minds. It seems like a good idea, but in practice, it leaves for way too many options open ended.




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