AGS Awards Nominations - Disappointment

[alkis21]

Before I begin, I would like to state that I totally respect the people's votes. I would also like to congratulate all the nominees. This is NOT a post that questions the validity or the objectivity of the results. The people have spoken loud and clear.
I cannot help but feel utterly disappointed by the fact that Other Worlds only got nominated for best documentation. After all the positive reviews and feedback from the 4000+ people that have downloaded it in 4.5 months, my expectations were higher. Especially considering that if you look at the votes in the main page, OW's current score is higher than the games that got nominated for the 'Best Game' category expect Apprentice II. Just Adventure called it "one of the best, if not the best adventure game of 2004" and "3rd best Independent adventure game ever". I was really aiming for the Best Story & Puzzles category, but I guess my game is not worth as much as I believed.
I have played many of the nominated games and most of the nominations seem much deserved to me. I don't want anyone to think that I mean any disrespect to the other creators. I just felt that Other Worlds deserved a place among them. I suppose someone complains every year about the results, I'm sorry that this year it's me, I must sound like a spoiled brat to all of you.
Good luck to everyone.

[Privateer Puddin']

Just Adventure called it "one of the best, if not the best adventure game of 2004" and "3rd best Independent adventure game ever".

And here, your argument fails.

[Pesty]

Other Worlds was nominated for other categories, it's just that only the top five games with the most votes could be used. Just because your game didn't make the final cut doesn't mean nobody voted for it, it just didn't get enough votes. It's not an insult to you or your game.

[alkis21]

Privateer, how does my argument fail? I don't get it.
Pesty, I don't feel insulted, I feel disappointed.

[Grundislav]

Your argument isn't totally invalid, but look at what you said:

"OW's current score is higher than the games that got nominated for the 'Best Game' category expect Apprentice II. Just Adventure called it "one of the best, if not the best adventure game of 2004" and "3rd best Independent adventure game ever". "

People obviously liked your game. Ã, Shouldn't you feel good enough about that? Ã, So it didn't get nominated for an AGS Award, it's not the end of the world. Ã, An AGS Award isn't a measurement of your game being better or worse than others, it's just a silly little ceremony we've come to adopt.

Does it feel good to win an AGS Award? Sure it does, but remember it also feels good to have people praise your game. Ã, If that's what you're looking for, you certainly seem to have gotten some pretty high marks already.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Don't worry, I'm pretty disappointed myself - I was pretty sure I'd get the "best documenbtation" award for Larry 2. I wasn't expecting Larry 2 to gather any other award, of course, but I am damn proud of the documentation it has.

Well, c'est la vie, Alkis. You and me and many many other AGSers. Don't take it bad, it's not that Other Worlds is bad, on the contrary it's GREAT. The other games are simply better. Or so the nominating process told us.

[Pumaman]

Regardless of this particular case, there is a debate to be had about the nominations process in future AGS Awards. The problem we seem to get, and it happens every year, is that a group of 5 games tend to be the same nominees for all the main awards.

It probably happens because people think to themselves "oooh, I liked game X" and then proceed to nominate it in every category.

The idea has been floated that the nominees could be selected by a committee rather than by the public, and then the public would just vote on the winner. Obviously that's a decision that will need to be made for next year.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

...sounds like a damn good idea. The formation of the committee should be a careful thing, of course, but it does sound quite quite QUITE good.

[alkis21]

I know it's not the end of the world, and I know people's feedback should be good enough for me.. I guess it's my vanity speaking, wanting more. When I talked about JA comments and the votes I've had, I didn't mean "Other Worlds should have been nominated", I meant I expected it to be nominated.

[Pesty]

It probably happens because people think to themselves "oooh, I liked game X" and then proceed to nominate it in every category.

If we don't go with the committee idea for next year, I am going to disqualify anyone who does this for next year. I want people to put more thought into their nominations. I got some people voting for Apprentice 2 and other games they voted in every other category in the p3n1s award category because they simply weren't thinking or paying attention.

[Kinoko]

Well, SOME of us take this seriously I sat there and played at least some of every game I came across that was nominated (that I hadn't previously played). Of course, I didn't play -every- single game up for nomination, and therein lies part of the problem. (eg, I hadn't played Other Worlds at that stage, sorry alkis).  Just about every award has this problem, and it's a hard one to remedy. I do think the committee idea sounds like a good way to solve this though, assuming excellent people who HAVE played every single game are picked.

[Snarky]

I actually think most of the nominations look pretty decent. Yes, we can talk about the games that deserved a nomination and didn't get one, but are there any nominations that seem undeserved? There are a few I would argue with (7DAS for best gameplay? Cirque for best animation? No-Action Jackson for best scripting?), but on the whole they seem fair.

Most people who're nominating probably haven't played all the games that might deserve a nomination. I know I hadn't (though it turns out I've tried every game that got a nomination). Therefore, the games that got the most attention on the forums, the ones that were played by most of the voters, have an advantage that is very difficult for an outsider to overcome.

Clearly, graphics have a lot to do with it. No game that doesn't have good graphics was nominated for any major category (though some might not agree about Ben Jordan 3), and very few good-looking games released last year aren't on the list (I can only think of The Hamlet and A Tale of Betrayal).

I think nominations by a panel, along with a forum thread to let others offer input, would be a good solution. Otherwise, I'll make sure to vote more tactically next year, deliberately not nominating the favorites.

[Vince Twelve]

For your consideration:  "Nomination Reform"

Having a panel has already been discussed, and I, for one, believe it to be a good idea.  The panels would have to be carefully chosen (I say panels because I think having separate panels for graphics, gameplay, documentation, etc... within reason... might be a good idea).  Any AGSers on the panels would have to disqualify their own games from that year, obviously. I would also suggest grabbing some non-AGS community people to join the panels.  Perhaps some people from the adventure game journalism area, like Jozef Purdes at DIY Games who makes the "Independent Adventuring" feature.

Now, the big problem here is that you have a small number of people who are responsible for playing a huge number of games...  The way they handle this at most big awards shows (like the Oscars) is to limit the entries by requiring the people responsible (developer(s)) to submit their product (game) to the categories for which they believe they have a reasonable chance of winning.  This submission may be a simple Email or PM from the developer with the game name and the categories he/she wishes to enter the game into, or it may be more complicated, like a web form including a paragraph on why the game deserves to win [insert category name here].

Regarding Panelists:[/i]

Pros:
    -eliminates the "Only the most five most popular games were nominated for every category" issue.

Cons:
    -That's a lot of games to consider...
        Possible solutions:
            -Required Submissions
            -Create 'No' and 'Maybe' piles based on a cursory examination.
            -Choose the panelists at the beginning of the year, allowing them a head start.
    -Possibility of bias
    -Possibility of hurt feelings and resentment
        Possible solutions:
            -Anonymous panelists

           

Regarding required submissions:[/i]

Pros:
    -Limits the number of games a panelist has to look at.
    -No massive list of every game produced in the last year is required.

Cons:
    -Looking at the bundle of submissions may still be a large undertaking for a small group of panelists.  Certainly more difficult and time consuming than tallying the community's nominations.
    -Some developers may miss the note about needing to submit their games and some worthy games may be missed.
        Possible solution:
            -Allow year-round submissions



These are just the few ideas that sprang to mind when I read this thread.  Feel free to add to them, subtract from them, or just completely ignore them. 

[DGMacphee]

People obviously liked your game.  Shouldn't you feel good enough about that?  So it didn't get nominated for an AGS Award, it's not the end of the world.  An AGS Award isn't a measurement of your game being better or worse than others, it's just a silly little ceremony we've come to adopt.

Does it feel good to win an AGS Award? Sure it does, but remember it also feels good to have people praise your game.  If that's what you're looking for, you certainly seem to have gotten some pretty high marks already.

Quoted for emphasis.

Just a quick note: The AGS Awards is only supposed to be just a bit of fun. Remember that. It's not a measure of how big your penis/breasts are. People can still lead very fruitful lives without AGS Awards. And reforms are good, yes, diversifying the categories is good, yes, but don't get too bogged down in reforms and rules, cause it sucks the fun out of it. As long as people have fun... that's the main thing.

[Barbarian]

Ã,  Remember that. It's not a measure of how big your penis/breasts are. People can still lead very fruitful lives without AGS Awards.

DG is quite correct in all of what he says... But now my overactive imagination has me visualizing a bunch of game-makers, standing in line at an "AGS Grocery-Store", holding their "penis or breasts" in one hand,Ã,  pushing a shopping cart with the other hand, and all moaning stuff like, "Oh, woe is me, my penis / breasts is way too small, and I have no fruite.. My life, 'tis be a failure! *Sniff*"Ã, 

DG ya cruel bastard, I luv's ya!Ã,  Ã, :=Ã,  Heheh!

[Radiant]

As Pesty said, it may be useful to discount some nominations that clearly are poorly thought out (i.e. submitting your fave game everywhere). What may actually help, is requiring people to list a sample of what they nominate (i.e. you don't just nominate game Foo for best puzzle, but you name the puzzle you thought was so cool in Foo). Of course the voting is still for the game and not the individual puzzle, but if you nominate something for best puzzle (or music, etc) and can't think of a sample, then I'd say the nomination is not justified. Just my two pieces of eight.

What might also help is adding a descriptive text for some of the more obscure categories. 'Best room art' is pretty obvious, but what exactly constitutes 'best scripting' is not.

[SSH]

When I did the foregos last year (dart, hotspot what happened this year?) if there were people who had way mor enominations than everyone else, i put them in the final vote. That meant that some categories had 3 choices some had 7 but it meant that no-one missed out on a nom when they had 10 nominations and the avergae was 2

[AGA]

...sounds like a damn good idea. The formation of the committee should be a careful thing, of course, but it does sound quite quite QUITE good.

Yes, awards like that sound novel...

[Vel]

@Alkis:
Well dude I felt pretty disappointed last year with WWTLF too. Now I think about it, I see that it should have been much better to get nominated in more categories. IMHO, your problem is pimping - you use every opportunity to talk about your game. I know, I was the same. I've got better I hope though...

@Pumaman:
Yes, in my opinion that would be best. What I did was to select which of the 9-10 games I played and liked deserved the nomination. Not too much time, I guess :/

[LucasFan]

IMHO, your problem is pimping - you use every opportunity to talk about your game. I know, I was the same.

How about a Best pimping category? Btw, Alkis... your game is one of the best, if not the best adventure game of 2004 and 3rd best Independent adventure game ever!!! Give other games a chance, too. You don't need this little award.

[Gord10]

@Alkis:
You aren't the only one who got disappointed with the 2004 AGS Awards. I was expecting Lost In The Nightmare Demo to be nominated in the Best Demo category (because lots of people told me it could win it), but soon I learned that there wouldn't be a demo category this year. It was a big disappointment for me. Though, it doesn't mean I will give up adventure game developing. I'm working hard on my game now, and determined to release it.

No one has to win an award. The most important thing is to release stuff that people likes.

[SSH]

I understand how you feel. I had hoped (not expected) that Awakening of the Sphinx might have had a chance in the Best Demo category. I also understand, though, that trawling through the GiP forum to find all the demos would be a pain. I really think that future AGS awards should be restricted to those entered in the AGS games database pages which would make compiling the list much easier, or even automatic. If people know in advance, there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to make sure their games are in the database by a couple of weeks into January each year.

I also agree with Radiant about giving specific puzzles as examples, etc. This has obviously worked in the character categories to an extent.

Another award for next year might be the best script module: now that 2.7 will support them! Maybe that will be clearer than best scripting, or there could even be a best open-source AGS game award, too?

[Darth Mandarb]

Alkis - On one hand I can understand how you feel.

On the other hand, what does it really matter?

For me; I was excited about seeing if my game got nominated for anything.  To be completely honest I didn't expect it would be (I certainly didn't nominate myself).  So it was just a pleasant surprise to see it listed.

Sure it felt good, but if it had been nominated for nothing I wouldn't have been upset or offended.

concerning demos ...

Perhaps we should have a section on the AGS webpage (under games) for "Demos".  So the as-of-yet unreleased games with demos out can easily be reviewed for nomination.  This would save a LOT of time rather than parsing through the GiP looking for demos.

Maybe a category for 'Most Promising Demo' or 'Most Anticipated Game Demo' ... something like that.

concerning committee nominations ...

I don't really like the idea of all the award nominations being decided by committee.  I like the fact that all AGSers can nominate the game(s) they really enjoyed and that the awards are decided by the community, not a committee.

Maybe just certain categories should be nominated by a committee.  Like 'Best Scripting' could be nominated by some of the gods of the tech forums who really have a grasp of the scripting being used.  But then awards like 'Best Game' should be, for lack of a better phrase, "Viewers Choice" and would be nominated by the community.

I like 'feeling involved' in the nomination process.  Makes me feel important

[Captain Mostly]

At least by not getting nominated in any REAL catagories, you'll not have to suffer the kick in the teeth of having your magnum opus beaten in the end by some novelty game that people only voted for because it had people from the community in it and "mittens" in the title... Not that I'M bitter you understand...

[Sektor 13]

Alkis - On one hand I can understand how you feel.

On the other hand, what does it really matter?

For me; I was excited about seeing if my game got nominated for anything.  To be completely honest I didn't expect it would be (I certainly didn't nominate myself).  So it was just a pleasant surprise to see it listed.

Sure it felt good, but if it had been nominated for nothing I wouldn't have been upset or offended.

concerning demos ...

Perhaps we should have a section on the AGS webpage (under games) for "Demos".  So the as-of-yet unreleased games with demos out can easily be reviewed for nomination.  This would save a LOT of time rather than parsing through the GiP looking for demos.

Maybe a category for 'Most Promising Demo' or 'Most Anticipated Game Demo' ... something like that.

concerning committee nominations ...

I don't really like the idea of all the award nominations being decided by committee.  I like the fact that all AGSers can nominate the game(s) they really enjoyed and that the awards are decided by the community, not a committee.

Maybe just certain categories should be nominated by a committee.  Like 'Best Scripting' could be nominated by some of the gods of the tech forums who really have a grasp of the scripting being used.  But then awards like 'Best Game' should be, for lack of a better phrase, "Viewers Choice" and would be nominated by the community.

I like 'feeling involved' in the nomination process.  Makes me feel important

I think the problem when players are nominating the games, is that they do not play all of the games, but just most popular, but that doesn't mean that other games are bad...

I think commite should decide the nominies after playing all the game made that year...

[Haddas]

I wanted Corridors of the doom to be nominated in all categories, especially the hour game, or even get nominated at all...But just you wait, I'll be back with a Bigger! Better! game that will make you go "OOH!" and "WOOOW!" and then you'll all love me and lick my feet when I finally attend a mittens.

[Potch]

I was disappointed that Other Worlds wasn't nominated for other categories as well.  It was a fantastic game!  I mean... when I went to vote, I was specifially looking for that game!  Oh well.  Alkis... it was great, and you should be proud of that!

[Pesty]

I would just like to say that I got rid of the Best Demo category because I wanted to put more emphasis on finished games. If you want to win an award, finish your game! I've noticed that every demo that's won or been nominated hasn't been finished (take a look here: http://www.sylpher.com/AGSAwards/Awards.htm if you don't believe me). I replaced it with the hour games category because there aren't enough hour games around and I feel they're a great way to practice and they're a lot of fun. So I didn't just get rid of the category for no reason.

[alkis21]

Vel and LucasFan... pimping? I resent the term and I don't believe I did anything remotely like it. If I don't talk about my game in the AGS forum, where will I do it? Are you suggesting that people didn't want to vote for my game because they were tired of my "pimping"?
Everyone, the reason I'm interested in the awards is because I value AGSers' opinion more than the average adventure gamer's. That's because people who visit this forum know their amateur games, many of them have made some, so they know what a good or a bad effort is. For that reason, I'm very proud of my score in votes in the main page. I didn't want to open a can of worms and I certainly didn't want to suggest that there was something wrong with the voting process. I'm sure you guys are doing everything fine, the awards were there long before I joined AGS and they'll be there after I'm gone.

[Potch]

Hey Alkis, are you going to make another game?  I'd love to play something else that you made.

[alkis21]

No I won't, I guess I'll stick to writing manuals from now on, it seems that it's the only thing I'm capable of. 
Jokes aside, I'm afraid I no longer have the luxury to dedicate so much time and energy to something that gets me no financial profit.

[Potch]

Well, that's too bad.  You did great work. 

[Snarky]

Maybe you could join a team? Since your strengths seem to be writing the story and the puzzles, why not get others to do all the really time-consuming work for you?

[Pelican]

I think it might be useful though, to have the authors actually submit their games. Because, I did actually try to get a hold of all the games before making a nomination, and couldn't get a whole bunch of them.

I have to agree, some of the nominations did seem a little odd. Perhaps if the nominations were reviewed by a panel it might help? It just seems like the more high profile games were repeatedly voted for in all the catergories, whether they were appropriate or not. I personally found a few rather good games, from trawling through that lengthy list, that could have equally deserved a nomination. Perhaps there should be a rule that you have to play at least 50% of the games listed before nominating?

[DragonRose]

I don't think anyone has time to play 50% of the games that come out in a year. There are just too many.

My thought- what if people advertise their games? Allow me to explain.

When Oscar season comes around, film studios put out "For your consideration" ads in various trade magazines.  They list off all the Oscar worthy people and movies the studio has churned out in the past year. Movies like The Aviator or Million Dollar Baby get ads like this. Movies like Dodgeball do not, unless it's a joke.

Anyway, what if people who feel they should get an AGS award in a particular category put up a post in a specific thread saying, as an example, "For your consideration, Other Worlds for Best Game" or "For your consideration, Leisure Suit Larry 2 Point and Click for Best Documentation."

This would A) make sure we're only looking at games where the maker is still around, B) increase the likelyhood of people checking out the forerunners, and C) encourage people to actually look at specific points of the game, rather than just saying "I LIEKS IT AWL!!!11!"

And yes, it is pimping.

Just a thought.

[MrColossal]

We had that before but not this year, don't know why, probably because Pete is lazy...

And she's smelly!

[Gregjazz]

No I won't, I guess I'll stick to writing manuals from now on, it seems that it's the only thing I'm capable of. 
Jokes aside, I'm afraid I no longer have the luxury to dedicate so much time and energy to something that gets me no financial profit.

I'm sorry to hear you didn't get nominated, but it's cool that you got recognition in other places -- your review in Just Adventure and your review in the PC Master magazine.

I think I agree with what the other people said: it's all about pimping your game (or "advertising" it, if that word sounds better to you). Sometimes it takes a game a while to get recognition -- not always will it spread like wildfire. So good luck, and I'll check out Other Worlds (to tell the truth I haven't played it, and only heard very little about it).

[Pesty]

We had that before but not this year, don't know why, probably because Pete is lazy...

And she's smelly!

OMG ERIC SUCKCKCKCKCKS!1!!

It's not because I'm lazy, it's because I had no idea I was supposed to do it. If I had, I would've done them.

[Vince Twelve]

Now, the big problem here is that you have a small number of people who are responsible for playing a huge number of games...  The way they handle this at most big awards shows (like the Oscars) is to limit the entries by requiring the people responsible (developer(s)) to submit their product (game) to the categories for which they believe they have a reasonable chance of winning.  This submission may be a simple Email or PM from the developer with the game name and the categories he/she wishes to enter the game into, or it may be more complicated, like a web form including a paragraph on why the game deserves to win [insert category name here].

Anyway, what if people who feel they should get an AGS award in a particular category put up a post in a specific thread saying, as an example, "For your consideration, Other Worlds for Best Game" or "For your consideration, Leisure Suit Larry 2 Point and Click for Best Documentation."

This would A) make sure we're only looking at games where the maker is still around, B) increase the likelyhood of people checking out the forerunners, and C) encourage people to actually look at specific points of the game, rather than just saying "I LIEKS IT AWL!!!11!"

Sounds like we're on the same wavelength, here.   I definitely think it's a good idea.

[Snarky]

A) make sure we're only looking at games where the maker is still around

Is that desirable, though? Look at this year's nominees. Yahtzee doesn't post here (at least not openly), and cerebrit (creator of No-Action Jackson) hasn't posted anything since last June. Does it matter whether they're still around, or if they were ever around at all? Are these the AGS Awards or the AGS Forums Awards?

[DragonRose]

Hmmm... that's a very good point, Snarky. I was thinking more along the lines of the "makes games but puts in no effort and has probably forgotten they made a game" crowd rather than the "Makes games but isn't active on the boards" crowd.

[Vince Twelve]

You're right.  That shouldn't be desirable.

Perhaps offering year-round submissions would allow us to avoid this.  If a thread was open year round, only to be used only for submitting a game for AGS awards, the developer could submit his/her game at the same time of release (or maybe after a few weeks to see community reaction and allow some bug-fixing time).  Perhaps the panel could start early at dividing these games into 'no' and 'maybe' piles for later consideration...

    -Some developers may miss the note about needing to submit their games and some worthy games may be missed. [/b]
        Possible solution:
            -Allow year-round submissions

[MrColossal]

well year round submissions is a good idea, but as far as yahtzee not posting here, that doesn' t mean he can't either submit it or at least start posting here to announce his games.

[SSH]

Why do we need a thread for the submissions? We have the games database! It has a demo category already. Maybe it needs an hour game category too, but its perfectly capable of doing the job. If someone doesn't submit their game to the database then that's their own lookout. If we make it clear NOW that that is required for entry to AGS Awards then no-one can complain about last minute problems, becuas ethe games database is open all year.

And if someone ELSE wants to add Yahtzee's games to the database, let 'em

[Kinoko]

I think having to submit your game to the DB before it can be up for nomination is a good idea. It's nice and neat, not difficult at all and most people do it anyway so it wouldn't be out of the norm.

[Radiant]

Well, you could make a rule that people have to play a game before nominating it, but you can't really double-check or enforce that. Maybe a better rule would be that you can only nominate a game in three categories max - that'd force people to think of other games to nominate in other categories. And I believe nominations should be discounted if they don't make sense (i.e. 'best graphics' award for a game like Stick Man, or 'best documentation' for a game that in fact has none).

[Vince Twelve]

I think one of the reasons for having a thread for submissions is, as DragonRose said, that each game is submitted only for the categories in which it excels.  This can help the panel when making their decisions and can also help some of those usually shoved aside games get the recognition they deserve in the areas that they do excel.  Take for example a hypothetical game that has crap graphics, no story, and some average gameplay, but has the coolest and most informative manual ever.  Normally, this game would be completely ignored, but if there were a list of specific games submitted for each category, this game would be considered entirely based upon the merits of it's manual, and not the rest of the game.  Which, I believe is how it should be.

Of course then we're encroaching upon the "bogged down by rules" area that DG was warning about.

[SSH]

Maybe a commitee could split all games between them and each committee members is trusted to put any game with merit in a category into a Long List for each category. Then the nom process gets joe public to shorten the long list to a short list and then final vote? I believe the booker prize works somewhat like this

[Potch]

Another problem may be that there  could be people that don't understand all of the categories.  Maybe somone should add an explanation on each question, so people understand exactly what they are voting for.  There are people out there that play the games and vote, but they don't create games.  They may not understand what scripting or documentation or even graphics mean.  They may not understand the difference between graphics and animation.  That could be why some games get nominated in categories that don't make any sense.  I for one have never created a game.  I wrote the dialogue for a chapter once, but that's about it.  I know there were one or two things that I wasn't sure about when I voted. 

Another thing that might be good is to do the awards more than once a year.  I don't know about you guys, but when I have to vote in March for a game that I played in January the year before... it's hard to remember much.  I play so many of the games, that a lot of times, they tend to blend together.  I don't know, just a thought.

[Vel]

Well alkis, after a quick check, of 96 posts on this forum, more than 90 are related to "Other worlds". I think it's pretty much the same on other adventure forums. You see, people like Mills for example do pimp their game often, but this is not the ONLY thing they do, and this is why I am getting more or less annoyed. And hats off to SSH, who didn't complain there was a best demo category(not irony), although "Awakening of the sphinx" more than deserved the award in my humble opinion. And the fact that JA+ said good stuff about it means nothing than one person(concidence, or not, of your country) liked your game.
To tell you the truth, I haven't even played your game, for no other reason than the excessive, in my opinion, promoting.
A good way to promote your game is to put a small banner with a link in your signature, like many people do. But that'd mean posting for something else than your game, which seems pretty uncommon for you.

Give it a thought.

[Potch]

Since some people are disappointed about the Demo category... and Pesty, I get your point about how a lot of Demos never get finished.... how about maybe doing a category like... "What was the best demo of a game that is now complete?"  or something.  That way everybody is happy.  Just a thought. 

[Vel]

The number of games which demos are released in the same year as the full game is dangerously low.

[Helm]

I remember liking Alki's game when I played a portion of it a long time ago. I can't comment on the quality of the full game, however. I do not think he has 'pimped' his game too much, (I looked through his posts) and I do not think that because he is not interested in partaking fully in all aspects of this forum, and only posts about his game (in relevant threads) anyone should preemptively not play his game.

[Potch]

I agree.  So what if he pimps his game.  It was a fantastic game.  I don't blame him for pimping it.  You're missing out by not playing it.

[Problem]

I have to agree with Vel. I found his "advertising" very annoying, this thread is the best example. Or some post about the score dropping to 90% etc., who wants to know about that?
Don't get me wrong, I liked the game very much. But I think it doesn't deserve that many awards. The only one I can think of is "best story", and I expected it to be nominated for this award.
But think of the other awards. Best graphics? Animation? Music? Best Gameplay, with some annoying pixelhunting? - there were better games.
"Best Game", maybe. But there is a very strong competition. I don't think there are many categories where this game stands out. It has a good story and lots of immersion, but I think it is highly overrated in some of the reviews. That doesn't mean the game isn't good.  It is very good. But it's not the new Monkey Island.
Sometimes I really got the impression that he made the game only because of the reviews and awards. That's a strange attitude.

[MrColossal]

Again, what constant "advertising" are you people talking about?

I talked with vel in #ags and the majority of Alkis' posts were in the hints and tips forum not just random posts in random threads saying "Play my game!"

And then he mentions *in his own thread* that the score is dropping, and you have a problem with that?

Problem, have you made a game yet? Do you know what it's like to spend a long long time on a game and then finally get it done? Maybe he's very proud of his game and is 1: Shocked that people didn't vote for it more because he loves it and 2: Very proud that his game has gotten the good press that it has. Being proud that people are giving you good reviews doesn't mean that he only made it for the reviews and awards. I think your outlook is pretty awkward and rude.

Please, if I'm missing something, tell me where all this constant advertising has ruined your view of Alkis, where he's inundated the boards with requests for people to play his game. I just don't see it when I do a search on these forums, he sticks to his own threads and is proud of his game, how dare he!

[Andail]

It's pretty brave to start a thread like this, since it's bound to stir up at least some annoyment. I think it's pretty cool to vent some frustration...

On the other hand, there's nothing really to complain about...if people like the game, they'll vote for it, if they like another game better, they'll vote for that one instead. Nobody has been treated unfairly, nobody did anything wrong.

Then again, I'm all for the idea of having a comittée to select the nominations, a group of dedicated people who can review the games, give them a fair judgement and place them in a suitable category.
As I mentioned in the sticky thread, people have never been very good at voting here, sadly.

[Dave Gilbert]

What is wrong with "pimping" your games?  It's called marketing, people.  Don't underestimate its power.  From now on, I'm going to talk about my games non stop.  In addition, I plan to completely sell out and offer a large line of "Two of a Kind" merchandise.  Why? Because I KNOW the world desperately needs a Tiffany Walters coffee mug or a Doctor Love pillowcase.  You know you want one.

Seriously though.  Alkis, I've always admired your success. .  Your game has achieved more mainstream recognition than most AGS games currently available.  I would hardly call that a disappointment.  Be proud.  Don't let this one event rain on your parade.   

[Pelican]

I don't think anyone has time to play 50% of the games that come out in a year. There are just too many.

Errr... I did. But then I am a dossy student.Ã, 

[Kinoko]

Well, I for one didn't notice the advertising of Other Worlds because I never even really noticed the game existed before this thread started up. I don't know why, it just happened that way.

I haven't finished the game, but it's pretty cool so far. As a result of this thread, I had a look at your 'completed game' thread to see what people were talking about.

First of all - 3.5 years? Holy hell, if I could stay on a project for that long the universe itself would end. My definite er... "props" to you for that one, I'm impressed. Having worked on such a long game for such a long time, you're fully entitled to 'pimp' your work, I did it plenty with my tiny-in-comparison Cirque. I was REALLY happy it was out and I was even happier to be getting good feedback.

I must say though, and I'm sure you're over it now because it's been a few months, one big mistake you can make that will be the end of you is putting too much emphasis on scores, and percentages, and reveiwer comments. That little percentage thing in the game's profile - just forget about it, don't look! You sort of have to take these things in your stride, or with a grain of salt... I don't know which phrase I mean. Either way, don't take them too seriously because you'll start spending all day looking at them and then you'll get suicidal when a score drops or isn't as high as you expected.

I think you have to look at the AGS Awards that way too. Admittedly, my game got nominated for more things that I would expect. Am I gonna complain about it? Nosiree! ^_^ It's great. At the same time, I wouldn't mind if it didn't get nominated for anything. I'd be a bit disappointed, sure, but ... 1. It's just not that big of a deal. 2. There were a LOT of excellent, quality games that came out in 2004. Noone can deny that. Even if you think yours is better, and you're entitled to, you have to understand that your opinion is biased. I personally liked the Apprentice 2 and 7 Days more than anything else this year (though having recently playing JP and Cosmo... wow!) and I know a lot of people wouldn't agree with me. That's just the way I see it. People look for different things in what makes a game worthy of an award. Even if they personally enjoyed a particular game more than the one they nominated, they may be nominating what game they think is more public-ly appreciated, or the one with the LOOK of a good game, regardless of lacking in story.

I'm personally guilty of this, I just adore a professional looking game, which is partly why Apprentice and 7 Days bowled me over. When I forget I'm playing a game made by an amateur, I -really- get a respect for it and that's part of what goes into my decision making for best games.

I've sort of forgotten what my point was here, but er... well, take it like a man, I guess (in a nice way). You just have to suck these things up, because nothing good will come of voicing complaint. I know it sounds harsh, but the fact just remains that people tend not to like sore losers (again, NOT calling you a loser here, it's an expression).  Even though I think your game (so far) is great and impressive, I actually did roll my eyes when I first saw this thread, to the tune of "Oh well, looks like SOMEONE'S sour about the nominations". Nothing specific to you, but I bet I'm not the only one, is my point. I just think in times of disappointment like this, it's best to stay quiet and preserve some dignity - or rather, "coolness".

I think this post sounded pretty harsh, I'm sorry for that.

[Snarky]

One way to do the awards next year would be to set up an open thread for nominations. That way, any forum member can nominate any game for any category. The committee then has to consider all the games that have been nominated, and no others, and pick a list of finalists for each category. Then we all vote to determine the winners.

The first step would make the list of games for the committee to play more manageable. If people are disciplined in their nominations, only games with a reasonable chance at winning need to be considered. But it also means that if at least one person on the forums has played a game and wants it to win, it will get its shot.

[edmundito]

It's funny that we're talking about marketing and stuff because my favorite Grumpy Gamer has posted something about it, too: http://grumpygamer.com/1230269

Um, but I don't think that if your game is popular it should get all the nominations. I think there needs to be some kind of comitee of some kind to really look at these games and pick the best ones. It might be a daunting task, but it'll be worht it.

I always thought the AGS awards were kind of flawd in that way, because the awards are usually given to those awesome games everyone knows. They don't need more exposure with an award stuck next to their name! Those who need exporsure are games that were somehow overlooked at for whatever reason. Maybe it was because the game was not made by Yahtzee or a game made by a team of known AGSers, or a sequel to a good-looking game, or a game that looked like DOTT, or a game that reminded us of the Monkey Island style.

[Problem]

Problem, have you made a game yet? Do you know what it's like to spend a long long time on a game and then finally get it done? Maybe he's very proud of his game and is 1: Shocked that people didn't vote for it more because he loves it and 2: Very proud that his game has gotten the good press that it has. Being proud that people are giving you good reviews doesn't mean that he only made it for the reviews and awards. I think your outlook is pretty awkward and rude.

Yes, you are right. My post was rude, and I apologise for it. I didn't mean to sound rude, and of course I know that alkis didn't make a game because of awards and reviews. I just had the impression that he acted as if it was the most important thing.
Really, there are many quality games who didn't get nominted at all. What if all the creators of these games opened new topics to tell the world how disppointed they are? This can't be the way, and this why I was so annoyed.
Again i apologise for being rude.

(BTW I made several games before I found AGS, so I know about that. But it doesn't matter imo. There is no rule that says "don't post your opinion unless you made a game" as far as I know.)

[SSH]

Of course, someone could do their own "AGS Demo Awards". I'd offer myself, but I'd have a conflict of interest.

Here's some possible list:

Pap Quest
Noisy Mountain
Project Scooter
Meaning Quest
Poconia: Evil's Resurrection
Heroine's Quest: The Legend of Fair Spring
Satan Has a Dinner Party
Lost In The Nightmare
Ben's Adventure
The Keepers Of Knowledge
A Tale of Two Kingdoms      
The Long Trip
The Artifact
Demo Quest: Source of Dreams
Jeremy's Mission: The Cave
RON: Without a Prayer
The Legacy of Taft
Shadow of the Comet
MOUNT MONKEY
COP - A game inspired by Pleurghburg
Boron-5
King's Quest 2.5
Quest For Glory: A Hero's Death
The Items Collector
STAR WARS Shadows of the Empire: Graphic Adventure
Discarded Realmz - SILENT KNIGHT
Mr.Monster's adventure
Monkey Island 5 : The Return of LeChuck
The Mystery of the Faceless Corpse !
Sunrider
Bad Acid
The "Long Trip" never ends...
Totaskalan
Donjon : free Zongo
The Dungeon (Akumayo)
A Long Kiss Goodnight - Trailer and Cutscenes Available      
Brad Bradson II
EVERLOT DEMO!
The Texan
Awakening of the Sphinx
Terminator: 2031
Murder By Proxy
Erik Parker
Mock's Dark Castle Escape
NightScape
Dick LaRenzo: Secret Agent!
LSL3 remake

Please say if any of these are actually from 2003 or are now full games

[Helm]

Problem, he wasn't asking if you had made a game because he was insinuating that people who haven't made one shouldn't have the right to discuss these things. He was asking because as you know, having made several games, as you say, when you finish one, you're very very eager to share it and enjoy any of the benefits of exposure.

[LucasFan]

Do you know what it's like to spend a long long time on a game and then finally get it done?

So I suppose you do, right?

I just had the impression that he acted as if it was the most important thing.

Hehe, yeah. Not just you. I did follow his “promotion-tour” at JA's forums for a while and I think it was just a matter of time until he brings it over here. I don't want to comment his masterpiece but he's definitely a great entertainer. Some of my favourite quotes:

My intention was to create the best amateur freeware game ever

I just added Other Worlds in the 'Full Length Games' section of the AGS site:
<http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/games.php?category=1&page=2>
When you all complete the game, I'd appreciate some votes.

Shany: Hey alkis, I started playing your game and it crashed after I tried…
Alkis21: Damn Shany, you're bad publicity for me!

And by the way, whoever finishes the game, please take some time to vote in the AGS site (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk)

* yup, we are still the same thread *lol*

This is going better than anything I had imagined.. already reached 500 downloads since Wednesday!Ã,  Ã, According to my site's statistics, I've had visits from countries like China and Singapore!

The 1000 downloads pinacle is long gone (1119) after less than two weeks since release date. All five continents are accounted for, people from 63 countries have gotten the game so far. Most were from the United States, some of the other countries: Australia, China, Hong Kong, Brazil, Israel, Singapore, Lithuania, Indonesia, Philippines, Gibraltar, South Africa, Senegal and one Mexican!

Just wanted to let everyone know that Other Worlds was reviewed in a PC Master magazine (Greece) and got an 85%.

Here's a really negative one from the Czech Republic, it's a good thing I don't understand what it says as it got a 55%.

Don't get me wrong. I don't want him to stop or anything. I LOVE to read posts like these.

[Helm]

So I suppose you do, right?

Eric has made a few excellent games.

[LucasFan]

C'mom, Helm. You know what I mean.

Btw... some more quotes from our friend.
He's cute, isn't he? Check out the JA-board. It's full of great entertainment!Ã, 

Agustin: Maybe claiming that Other Worlds was one of the best adventures, commercial or non-commercial, of 2004 was stretching things a bit too far.

alkis21: Ã, 

Ogre: I just downloaded the game and played it for 30 minutes or so (with speakers out) and gained 48 points, so not very far into it, but I also think the text is pretty amateurish/non-literate.

alkis21: The way I see it, there is a difference between critisism and heckling. Ogre is a heckler of the worst kind, he's not after a discussion, he's looking for a fight, because that's obviously his only way of getting some attention to his pathetic existence.

[Vel]

Hahahahahahahah

I was sure I'd find something like that on JA+ forums, but I never tried. Thanks Lucasfan, and keep them coming!

Oh and alkis,

Here's a really negative one from the Czech Republic, it's a good thing I don't understand what it says as it got a 55%.

this quite shows your attitude. The score doesn't matter, the thing that matters is WHY is it given. Or else there'd be no review - just a list of titles and scores. And just out of curiosity, do you know the one who reviewed other worlds in JA personally?


Edit: Hey Alkis, with this you can vote numerous times for your game! http://www.space.net.au/~thomas/quickbrowse.html

[Kinoko]

Bloody hell alkis ^_^ I'm afraid after reading some of those quotes (thanks Lucasfan! They are funny... should I be ashamed?) I have to say you definitely need to take a more relaxed attitude to your game. Nothing makes a game seem cooler than letting it speak for itself. When you have the creator defending every little thing about it and making it out to be something people should be worshipping, it will get on people's nerves, or at least make them less inclined to play your game.

Just be cool, like with sunglasses on and a backwards cap - the whole deal!

[jetxl]

I don't know 'Ogre', and quotes are only fragments of posts. So the whole thing is a bit suggestive.

ANYWAY. I'm a bit disapointed that LSL2 isn't nominated since the KQ remakes were always big winners. And Project Xenophobia, who is nominatedÃ,  twice in AG Underground Awards, isn't chosen once. Also, only one BJ game nominated for music...?
But the games that are nominated shine like gold.

I actually think most of the nominations look pretty decent. Yes, we can talk about the games that deserved a nomination and didn't get one, but are there any nominations that seem undeserved? There are a few I would argue with (7DAS for best gameplay? Cirque for best animation? No-Action Jackson for best scripting?), but on the whole they seem fair.
. . .

No-Action Jackson is programmed so he can walk and talk at the same time. Briljant.

[Kinoko]

Hey, and you can't argue with the masterful animation in Cirque de Zale. I actually hired an animation studio in America just for that animation where he sits up on the beach. I swear, sometimes I forget it's a computer game when I look at it... ^_^

[Dave Gilbert]

The score doesn't matter, the thing that matters is WHY is it given. Or else there'd be no review - just a list of titles and scores.

This is quite true.Ã,  Some reviewers will rate certain aspects higher than others, and that Czech site in particular is known for being brutally honest.Ã,  Their reviews of my games have been quite harsh in places, but their criticisms were quite valid (inconsistent artwork, wonky programming, lazy animation).Ã,  It was quite refreshing.Ã,  No other site reviews so many indie games and goes into such detail.Ã,  It shows that they really CARE about the genre.Ã,  Who cares about negative reviews?Ã,  As long as the reviewer takes the time and effort to comment fairly, it can only make you grow as an artist/writer/game maker.Ã, 

[Andail]

So, evidently, Alkis is quite a pimp. Eric couldn't defend all that pimping even if he put on his most purplest suit!

Kinoko said it best, about not paying too much attention to scores and numbers. I'll just stress you out.

I for one know what it's like to make a game and put it out for public use, and I learnt pretty early on not to care about statistics and votes and whatever. I did however enjoy those personal letters I recieved from people telling me that playing the game actually meant something for them, and even though TW3 is quite a crappy game, this still happens on regular basis. Those things matters. Awards don't, especially not our awards, because they're pretty flawed anyway:)

[Sektor 13]

I don't know 'Ogre', and quotes are only fragments of posts. So the whole thing is a bit suggestive.

ANYWAY. I'm a bit disapointed that LSL2 isn't nominated since the KQ remakes were always big winners. And Project Xenophobia, who is nominated  twice in AG Underground Awards, isn't chosen once. Also, only one BJ game nominated for music...?
But the games that are nominated shine like gold.

I actually think most of the nominations look pretty decent. Yes, we can talk about the games that deserved a nomination and didn't get one, but are there any nominations that seem undeserved? There are a few I would argue with (7DAS for best gameplay? Cirque for best animation? No-Action Jackson for best scripting?), but on the whole they seem fair.
. . .

No-Action Jackson is programmed so he can walk and talk at the same time. Briljant.

Hey someone remebered my game  (project xenophobe).. Well, i dont care if i wasn't in AGS awards, i have Underground and some Checz give me 70 % (HREJ.cz), which is good enough for me... i will try to make next game even better, Stargate Adventure, i will announce it soon, under Game Announcement....

[MrColossal]

Well, I was wrong, Alkis was rude in another forum.

And really, I only read 2 posts from ANOTHER forum that are him being awkward. What is wrong with this:

"And by the way, whoever finishes the game, please take some time to vote in the AGS site (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk)"

HAHAH! OH MAN! He wants people to vote for his game!! Wow! What a... Wait that's lots of people on here...

Anyway, I personally don't see a reason to post more, like vel asked. This isn't the purpose of the agsforums to dig things up on people and drag their name through the mud. If you feel he ruined his own reputation then fine, leave it at that and move on. Now it's time for his second chance.

Eric

[Andail]

No, now it's time to make phridays of Eric in his purple suit! Mwhahaha!!

J/K. You're right, this is nothing to dwell on any further.