Planning for awards season

Anarcho · Wed 04/01/2006 21:50:47

If you take away the download requirement, you might get lots of people posting unfinished or nonexistant games. On the other hand, if the games page is there to list all released AGS games, then commercial games should be added. But on the third hand, if people are going to sell there game, then maybe we should just say, "you're on your own! Good luck!"

MrColossal · Wed 04/01/2006 21:57:50

why not? if the games have demos you can link to that...

and really, they should, right?

jetxl · Wed 04/01/2006 23:10:58

Apearently I missed your point. I don't even knowÃ,Â if there is a point, but if you have then I missed it.

There is no seperation, everbody is free to vote/nominate/register non english games. Your idea, however, IS seperation.

Voice acting is nice and all, but they are rare. You can't even fill this category with 5 games. So you want a junk category where we put all the other games with rare features in? Seperation!

Next year, everbody is free to vote/nominate/register on Al Emmo: The Lost Dutchman Mine. If it doesn't win, it's because it didn't get enough votes. Just like many freeware games (who might have trouble with their server, and can't be downloaded anymore). Their chances are equal.

Here it gets really vague, really fast.

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 04/01/2006 21:37:47
QuoteThere isn't much difference between wat Andail said and my idea. Apart for skipping the registration, and a different jury for every category, it's the same.
I think the differences are for the worse, along with your new categories and choosing the Game of the Year on the basis of the most awards.

I think the differences are for the worse I see hard words, but I don't see your motivation.
along with your new categories They aren't 'new' they are merged. And if you don't like merged categories then what is this:

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 04/01/2006 15:23:37
Finally, I think the categories from last year were mostly good, though it might be good to reduce the number of them somewhat. Personally, I'd suggest getting rid of "Best Animation" (highly correlated with best character art), and maybe change "Best Sound Effects" into a "Best Multimedia" including sound effects, voice acting and video. Possibly merge "Best Gameplay" and "Best Puzzles".

So it turns out that your point is you're a hypocrit, and I no longer care what you want to say...

Andail · Wed 04/01/2006 23:16:55

Hm, I'm not sure there is a point in arguing this anymore, especially since it seems to get increasingly hostile.

Maybe it is better if the moderators just decide on the rules, and SSH can get it rolling as he comes back?

jetxl · Wed 04/01/2006 23:35:58

Let me just say this before I wander off wearing nothing but a swimming dress, again.

I though trough it for a time, and my personal opinion was that it's ballanced quite well. Then some snob starts nagging "what about the foreign language games?"
What about them?

And who is Becky?

Czar · Wed 04/01/2006 23:38:40

Quote from: Andail on Sat 10/12/2005 14:26:57
Nikolas, obviously you have to take into considerations such things as art or music being ripped or borrowed or whatever, when you cast your votes. There are no officials rules regarding the nomination procedure, mostly because there haven't really been a proper one; simply a two step popular vote.

So, to clarify.
Previous system:
1. Nomination (members vote on games/persons for nominations in certain categories)
2. Final election (from the the top five entries in each category, each member will vote for one favourite)

Suggested system this year:
1. Registration (someone (either the author of the game, or simply anybody) registers a game/person and make it receptible for nomination.
2. Nomination (a special board of trusted people will choose five games/persons for each category. These people will be required to give every game an equal share of attention, and make their non-biased decisions based on their respective expertise in each area)
3. Final election (a popular vote will decide the winning entry for each category.

Just to make it clear, Andail, there will be registration for every category separtely(sp)?

One more thing. I saw what Jet wrote about categories. To move the confusion maybe the Music category should be renamed to Original Music & sound award.

I'm sorry for not reading the whole thread, but a Ben Jordan marathon is waiting for me.

Andail · Wed 04/01/2006 23:49:04

In my vision, registration is done with no regards to the categories.

The chief point in my vision is that a small board of dedicated people decide on five of the registered games for each category. This will somewhat reduce the chances of people omni-voting for games they like personally, without considering what the categories actually mean.

I don't really have any opinions on the categories, but I guess the ones we've used in the past work well.

However, I think we should just wait until SSH comes back, if he's the one who'll handle it.

PS:
And Becky is just a not very active member. DS's girlfriend, by the way.

Snarky · Thu 05/01/2006 00:33:53

I have no problem with the moderators making the decisions from here. I don't think it's necessary to close the discussion, though, since more useful suggestions might still come up. (Vince's suggestion of a category for most innovative game, which I think is a great idea, is an example of a proposal that SSH or whoever will be in charge might not have thought of if not for this thread.)

Quote from: jet on Wed 04/01/2006 23:10:58
Apearently I missed your point. I don't even knowÃ,Â if there is a point, but if you have then I missed it.

There is a point, and I'll try to state it clearly: I think the idea of delegating the nominations to a jury or committee is a good one, but it also introduces some problems. Because we're asking the jury to consider all the games vying for an award fairly, they need to have a chance to play all of those games. However, this may not always be possible, for instance because (a) the game is in a language they don't speak, or (b) the game costs money they don't want to pay.

We should consider how to deal with this, so that games aren't unintentionally excluded from the competition.

QuoteThere is no seperation, everbody is free to vote/nominate/register non english games. Your idea, however, IS seperation.

I assume you mean "discrimination"? How are we supposed to ask the jury/committee to play games that aren't in English, if the committee members only speak English? And if we say "just ignore those games", aren't we discriminating against them?

QuoteVoice acting is nice and all, but they are rare. You can't even fill this category with 5 games. So you want a junk category where we put all the other games with rare features in? Seperation!

Not a junk category. A category that games can be nominated to for different reasons. Does it make sense to award games that make good use of multimedia features like sound effects, voice acting and video cutscenes? If we think it does, we should have a category for it (or several).

QuoteNext year, everbody is free to vote/nominate/register on Al Emmo: The Lost Dutchman Mine. If it doesn't win, it's because it didn't get enough votes. Just like many freeware games (who might have trouble with their server, and can't be downloaded anymore). Their chances are equal.

Again, the point is the jury. Can we demand that everyone on the jury must buy all the commercial AGS games that people want them to consider? If not, how can they give them a fair consideration?

I have some ideas for how to deal with this. For instance, if the creators of a commercial game want to be considered for an award, they have to provide complementary (i.e. free) copies of the game for the people on the jury. Or we could officially exclude commercial games from the competition. Or they could be included at the jury's discretion. Or they could be evaluated based on their demos. Etc. Whatever solution we choose, it's something we have to decide how to deal with.

QuoteHere it gets really vague, really fast.

I think the differences are for the worse I see hard words, but I don't see your motivation.
along with your new categories They aren't 'new' they are merged.

My point was simply to address your objection that your proposal was essentially the same as Andail's (and, implicitly, that it therefore doesn't make sense for me to dislike it when I like his): It's specifically the differences between the two that I don't like. I don't particularly feel like arguing about why I think they are worse, since most of my reasons have already been mentioned by others.

Your categories are "different". Let's just leave it at that.

QuoteAnd if you don't like merged categories then what is this:
Quote from: Snarky on Wed 04/01/2006 15:23:37
Finally, I think the categories from last year were mostly good, though it might be good to reduce the number of them somewhat. Personally, I'd suggest getting rid of "Best Animation" (highly correlated with best character art), and maybe change "Best Sound Effects" into a "Best Multimedia" including sound effects, voice acting and video. Possibly merge "Best Gameplay" and "Best Puzzles".

That's me not "not liking" merged categories. I agree with you that we should merge some of the categories from last year. I just didn't like the list you came up with. For instance, I don't think getting rid of the story and dialogue categories makes sense, I would much rather have a "gameplay" category than one for "puzzles", the categories for "comedy" and "horror" games make no sense, I think the Game of the Year should be voted for separately, and your original proposal had several other problems (merging background and character art, not having a lifetime achievement award, etc.) that you have fixed since then.

QuoteSo it turns out that your point is you're a hypocrit, and I no longer care what you want to say...

Screw you. You don't see that we're all trying to come up with the best system we can think of? Or are you unable to accept that your proposal might not be perfect in every way? That's the point of discussion: to propose different alternatives, criticize them to discover their weaknesses, and try to determine which ones are best. If you don't want to be involved in that process, you're essentially admitting that your goal isn't to improve the AGS Awards, but just to get your own way.

Pesty · Thu 05/01/2006 01:21:10

Quote from: Vince Twelve on Wed 04/01/2006 13:04:34
I believe that the chaotic part about last year, and Pesty can correct me if I'm wrong, was the nominations process.Ã,Â Having everyone write in their nominations and then having to tally all of them was an insanely difficult undertaking for her.Ã,Â Of course reducing the number of categories would have helped, but I believe the heart of the problem lies in the nominations process.

Really, it was the whole thing. The thing that took the longest was sorting through the game announcement forums for every game released in 2004. Tallying everything did suck hard, I have to admit, but a lot of it was pretty much automated, and I didn't really have to do a lot aside from certain things.

I was really frusterated when people would just vote for their favorite game in every category, regardless of what the category was. That's why I'm all for a committee, because then we won't have one game sweeping the awards, and other games will get a chance to be considered. It just seems unfair to me.

Nikolas · Thu 05/01/2006 06:31:26

In the whole process of the awards it is obvious that the creators themselfs (or their fans), take huge part. I mean it is they that they will first nominate any games. After that it is the comitee. And I can only hope that a game with roger as the main character (and we have some games with this), no matter how much we all love it, is rather difficult to be even nominated for best character/best animation/best BGs (probably) awards.

From the artistic point of view at least, the nomination can be decided pretty quickly. For example, the amulate of Kings (not released yet so no problem in me mentioning it here), is rather obvious that it should be at least considered for a nomination (depending on the rest of the games for 2006/7/8 (<-Any release date?)

). You don't really have to play the game to see that there is some professional job done in all areas, but the graphics department is simply stunning. The same goes for Al emmo and other games.

I hope that with the comitees the voting for my favourite game to every award, won't be possible now...

CJ: If there is a link saying "click here to go to the game's site"? Would this work. In the case of the Zone for example the link would take us to the zone site, where you can find all relevant information there (and an option to buy). Also the demo idea is not a bad one, providing that there is a demo available (which there isn't in the zone, yet, is there?). And of course a note in the specific game page saying that "this game is not freeware", would certainly help. But since it is made with AGS it should be there.

Radiant · Thu 05/01/2006 10:46:50

A semi-related point to all this, there is an issue of fair competition involved. Virtually all AGS games are homemade games by non-professional enthousiastic fans of the genre. Al Emmo in particular is not, because it has a rather large budget and employs professional paid artists. Apples and oranges.

I entirely and wholeheartedly agree with Pesty's remark that "people would just vote for their favorite game in every category, regardless of what the category was. That's why I'm all for a committee, because then we won't have one game sweeping the awards, and other games will get a chance to be considered. It just seems unfair to me."

History has shown that one game can easily sweep the awards. If we really want that then we could simply have only one award.

simulacra · Thu 05/01/2006 12:04:50

QuoteAgain, the point is the jury. Can we demand that everyone on the jury must buy all the commercial AGS games that people want them to consider? If not, how can they give them a fair consideration?

I have some ideas for how to deal with this. For instance, if the creators of a commercial game want to be considered for an award, they have to provide complementary (i.e. free) copies of the game for the people on the jury. Or we could officially exclude commercial games from the competition. Or they could be included at the jury's discretion. Or they could be evaluated based on their demos. Etc. Whatever solution we choose, it's something we have to decide how to deal with.

I think that giving complemenyary copies to the jury is the least a commercial project could do.

QuoteIn the case of the Zone for example the link would take us to the zone site, where you can find all relevant information there (and an option to buy). Also the demo idea is not a bad one, providing that there is a demo available (which there isn't in the zone, yet, is there?).

There is.

Pumaman · Thu 05/01/2006 14:09:47

QuoteA semi-related point to all this, there is an issue of fair competition involved. Virtually all AGS games are homemade games by non-professional enthousiastic fans of the genre. Al Emmo in particular is not, because it has a rather large budget and employs professional paid artists. Apples and oranges.

That's a good point. I think in a way people are taking the AGS Awards too seriously these days -- it just started as a bit of fun, after all.

But having said that, if we want it to be fair, is it possible for a free title to compete with a game like Al Emmo?
I'd say yes it is, there are several people in this community who can draw graphics on a par with commerical games; there are people who can make music on a par with commercial games, and so on.

And anyway, when it gets to the voting stage, it's highly likely that more people will have played the free games than the commercial ones, so a free game is likely to win the award anyway, just because of that.

Finally, thanks to SSH for volunteering to do the Awards this year. As the organiser his decision on how to run them is final, but we can of course leave this thread open for further suggestions.

Becky · Thu 05/01/2006 18:27:11

I am Becky.

jetxl · Thu 05/01/2006 19:30:39

Ah, I thought it was shang-tril-la or something.
I'm the guy who insulted you over the phone at Brittens. Sorry! :'(

Quote from: Pumaman on Thu 05/01/2006 14:09:47
And anyway, when it gets to the voting stage, it's highly likely that more people will have played the free games than the commercial ones, so a free game is likely to win the award anyway, just because of that.

You let it sound as it's a bad thing.

SSH · Sun 08/01/2006 20:59:07

(in my friend's cybercafe in Santander)

Just to let you know my plans: i hope to get set up a web page where you choose from a list of all 2005's games somehow and use that for nomination, allowing them to be automated somewhat. Nominations and awards will be entirely by pulbic vote if I run the awards. Looks like no-one else is volunteering to do it yet. I haven't read the whole thread in detial yet and will do so when I come back, so keep those suggestions coming for now. And register your 2005 games on the AGS games page if you haven't done already.

Vince Twelve · Mon 09/01/2006 02:28:42

Quote from: SSH on Sun 08/01/2006 20:59:07
Nominations and awards will be entirely by pulbic vote if I run the awards.

D'oh!

If reading the thread in detail doesn't convince you to change your mind and opt for the committee nominations, then I'd suggest at least opening a thread for each category to discuss games that deserve nomination. Perhaps that might slightly help to allay the "omni-nomination" problem that has plagued the awards in the past. I just hope that the small quality games that garnered little attention will have an equal chance at being nominated for the awards that they deserve.

That being said, thanks for volunteering! I'm sure everyone will respect any decisions you make regarding the awards.

Snarky · Mon 09/01/2006 06:42:10

Yes, I have to say I'm a bit puzzled by that choice, too. It seems like we have something very much like a unanimous consensus for the idea of having a panel pick the final nominees, so I don't see why you would decide to do it a different way.

Good luck with the awards, anyway!

Radiant · Mon 09/01/2006 10:49:27

Quote from: SSH on Sun 08/01/2006 20:59:07
Nominations and awards will be entirely by pulbic vote if I run the awards. Looks like no-one else is volunteering to do it yet.

Excuse me if I understood this wrong....
I think you're saying that because it's a lot of work to select nominations, you'd like some volunteers to help you - and since there haven't been any so far you'll have to go with voting instead. That sounds reasonable.
So, any volunteers?
I'd be happy to volunteer myself but it may be better if some people helped who were involved in or at least following last year's award more closely than I have.

Nikolas · Mon 09/01/2006 15:34:14

I would also be happy to volunteer for the comitee that hasto do with music. If this is what we're talking about, as long as I can do it after the 22nd of Jan, when I go back to London...