1213 (Episode 1) - by Yahtzee

Started by , Thu 29/12/2005 23:46:45

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esper

#40
Actually... I kind of agreed too. I liked the game, and I liked it alot, but I did have most of the same gripes.

In Yahtzee's defense, I don't think the game NEEDED good graphics. I think the heartbeat thing might have gotten old after a while, but it was a terrific move for immersion. I berely noticed it after a while, until it started to change.

I don't see the problem with the showers. I thought it was a whole lot more realistic than a medkit. Taking a soothing shower helps to calm the nerves and relax the character, who is obviously under a great deal of both physical and mental stress. I mean, come on, you want realistic? The guy should die after being hit once or twice, with no hope of ever healing. THAT'S realistic. I think the shower idea is a million times better than "medkits." What the hell is a medkit, anyway, and how is that supposed to heal you of gunshot wounds?

I played the game skillfully, the way I believe it was meant to be played, rather than diving off platforms and firing away. I played through once without taking a single hit, not even from the boss. Therefore, I'm not sure what you're complaining about. However, from most of the review in question, it seems as though our mystery reviewer's playstyle is a Ã, bit more "Halo 2" than "Out of This World." After the medkits, did you want Yahtzee to throw in a couple energy shields and a thermal detonator?

That also stands true for the next point, about dodging bullets. I personally HATE games that are so unrealistic that the player can be like Neo in the Matrix, dodging slow-moving projectiles and such... The key to the game is strategy and stealth, and as such, dropping down and putting a bullet in the guard before he hits you is where it's at. How do you suppose the character should dodge bullets, anyways? Should Yahtzee have implemented a bullet-time procedure in which 1213 bends backwards in slow motion to dodge the enemy bullets? I think this is why Yahtzee made the guards fall in one shot, but the zombies that don't have ranged attacks fall after several. This is good design, in my opinion.

I also found much problem with the chance of hitting a target. I think at least the chances should have gotten better as the target neared you. 1213 obviously is no professional marksman, as he could clearly NOT hit the broad side of a barn. This chance could have been raised a bit, and I'm sure Yahtzee will see this error and implement a fix in the next two chapters. HOWEVER, I do find it cool that there is a chance of missing. I found that cool in Out of This World, as well, and I forget if Flashback had a similar feature.

I agree with the resurrecting guards. Or rather, that they should not exist.

In regards to the text speed: Hit enter, and read the manual next time...

I had no qualms with the music. It was okay, and didn't bother me in the least.

I agree. Let him have opinions. I have mine too, and my opinion was that he sounded like someone with a grudge against Yahtzee for making fun of his favorite game on Fully Ramblomatic or in Adventure Gamer Underground, and tried to repay him by emulating him by writing a scorching rant. Just my opinion... Which, like him, I have the right to express...

Thank you, Kinoko, by the way. He did come off as an ass. I could care less about your criticism, and I did read it thoroughly, btw. Pretty much what you said is this:

"I like Yahtzee's past games, but now I hate him and everything he stands for." What constructive criticism? Read it YOURSELF, and stop telling me to do something I've already done... And quite skillfully. Illiteracy is not a laudable trait, so stop trying to prove that you can't even read something you yourself wrote. Read everything you bolded. You sound like a blubbering, childish cretin with a bone to grind rather than a constructive critic.

I hate bandwagons. I'm not one of those "let's all jump on the Yahtzee bandwagon" type guys. I'm not left or right, I'm not Republican or Democrat, I'm not Catholic or Protestant, and I'm not Yahtzee or You... I'm of the opinion that this is a good game, and Yahtzee did a good job, but that you were a little harsh. Don't start being harsh to ME now, or it might really get messy in here...
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Kinoko

QuoteThank you, Kinoko, by the way. You did come off as an ass.

I read that and thought, "I came off an an ass?? o_o"

esper

::looks around slyly::

repaired. Before you even mentioned it, by the way. Stupid pronouns...
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jackdark

Quote from: esper on Sun 15/01/2006 08:32:39
::looks around slyly::

repaired. Before you even mentioned it, by the way. Stupid pronouns...

Esper, you sound like an "ass" when you result to ad hominem based polemicy against myself, as you've done so twice already.  And if anyone sounds like an "ass" it is Ben himself, read his latest website post:

Quote from: Yahtzee
12/1/06: Too Angry To Write Puns Right Now

Okay, as I write this I am experiencing a mood swing. I don't know what that means to other people but for me it generally means me being depressed with no explanation beyond a semi-coherent 'eh' and a sort of inconclusive attempt at a shrug. And after that, I start feeling extremely angry for similarly absent reasons. It's just a sense of deep and gnawing generic fury at everything around me with no outlet save for hammering away on a keyboard for a while. Perhaps if the rage is still with me by the time I'm finished I'll even upload this as an update in a fit of spite.

Here, then, is a short concise list of everything that's making me angry right now:

- The hot Australian summer sun sitting on its big blue high horse like a big fucking shit

- The fan to my immediate right that is not pointed directly at me, because I've heard somewhere that fans actually take away cool breezes from everything it's not pointed at

- The Awful Forums, because none of the threads I'm interested in have updated in the last minute or so

- The curious smell rising from the armpits of the Hawaiian shirt that I have been wearing for probably too long and which I refuse to put in the wash because laundry in this flat gets done with a frequency roughly equivalent to extinction level events

- The community of ants that seem to think the bounty of crumbs to be had on my kitchen worktop is worth risking me and my apocalyptic dustpan and brush

- My girlfriend playing Animal Crossing behind me selling her green table in an infuriatingly blase fashion

- My tummy because it is hungry and I'll have to get up and microwave myself some fucking dinner but I can't because I'm too angry to stop writing this twatflappery

- The USELESS FUCKING CUNTRUNTS who keep FILLING IN THESE FUCKING ONE HUNDRED QUESTIONS and SENDING THEM TO ME because they don't seem to GRASP the fact that actually ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS removes the WHOLE FUCKING POINT OF THE FEATURE

- Every single one of the people who do now and have ever posted on my forum, some of whom also fit into the above category

- The fact that I have another idea for a fucking game that I really want to make but can't because I'm still doing 1213 but now progress is slowing on that due to all my passion for that project bleeding into the new idea

- Blockbuster Video for not having the game I wanted to rent

- My editor at Hyper who is often slow to answer email during busy magazine editing periods, which I fully understand and respect, but which nevertheless sets me off like a churning trough of boiling jam

I think that's it. No, wait, here comes another one:

- The entire world and every single fucking person in it especially the ones who had even the slightest involvement in bringing me into existence

Okay, that's enough, this isn't healthy. I'll just look at a picture of a dog until I have calmed down.

RAGHR STOP LAUGHING AT ME DOG I'LL MAIM YOUR DAD

- Yahtzee

Anyway.

Look, I have no "personal qualms" with Ben.  I simply don't like to see sycophantic reviews for a game which is so obviously subpar, especially compared to his previous work.  It saddens and troubles me to see degradation in an artist's form.  So if I have to be "an ass" to say the truth as I see it, so be it.  If the emperor is naked I have no need to think otherwise.

And being haughty is entirely subjective; truthful is another viewpoint.

Kinoko

You have no personal qualms with him, yet you post a recent webpost of his to show him up.

jackdark


esper

#46
You, sir, are an idiot.

Do you really think posting the words "ad hominem polemicy" is going to make us think otherwise? How long did you have to use a thesaurus to come up with that? And then you couldn't even use a valid form of the word "polemic." I knew ad hominem, but I did have to look up the other word on dictionary.com, which proves my asslessness in yet another way: I don't try to use words I don't know.

And, by the way, the post you quoted had nothing at all to do with you... I was speaking directly to Kinoko, jokingly.

How do I sound like an ass by telling you that you are NOT constructively criticising Yahtzee, but rather trying to tear him down in an open forum? That is my gripe. I even posted that I agreed with some of what you had to say, but you lost us in the way you did it. I also note that you have ONLY THESE FEW posts, in this thread, to your record. It seems to me that you logged onto this forum specifically for the purpose of trying to tear down Yahtzee.

Are you an artist? What have you done that we can see? I don't have an "idol worship" issue with Yahtzee, but he has made some games that I respect. Have you never heard of "trying a new style?"

And, by the way, that is Yahtzee's own home page. He has a right to sound like an ass there. As a matter of fact, I think it's his purpose to. He has every right to. Just like you have every right to say what you want about him here. Just like I have every right to tell you that you don't understand the meaning of the term "constructive criticism."

And, by the way, thank you for the one word response telling Kinoko exactly what the term was which refers to the type of thing she said. I'm sure she didn't know.

My note on this issue is simply this: You have four posts on these forums, and all of them are attacks on someone. You have an agenda. You have no desire to be a part of these forums, but simply to shit on people. That's not very welcome around here. If you want to be a part of the forums, stop right there. People aren't going to be very welcoming to you with an attitude like that right off the bat. If you don't want to be part of the forums, and you ARE only here to emit your fecal matter on the members, and on Yahtzee, who doesn't even come here anymore to defend himself, I suggest you quit while you're ahead.
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Ghormak

Argue as much as you like, I agree with every point in jackdark's review. I have nothing against Yahtzee either. Yes, people like us exist.
Achtung Franz! The comic

Pet Terry

It's quite amazing how threads about Yahtzee's games always become flamewars.

As for the game itself, I really liked it and am eagerly waiting for the second part. Oh yes.
<SSH> heavy pettering
Screen 7

esper

#49
I know, Ghormak. I'm one of them. I don't like the person that is Yahtzee all that much. I don't like his sense of humor. I don't like the high horse he sits on just because he's good at what he does. I like his games, though, and his concept of what is freaky/scary... I'm not arguing jackdark's points. Like I said, I agreed with some of them myself. I'm arguing his definition of "constructive criticism." You noticed that this left 1213 and went into YAHTZEE HIMSELF, though, right? For example, the ENTIRE QUOTE of the ENTIRE POST on the front page of his site?
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Ghormak

#50
QuoteI'm arguing his definition of "constructive criticism."
Then I disagree with that argument.

QuoteYou noticed that this left 1213 and went into YAHTZEE HIMSELF, though, right? For example, the ENTIRE QUOTE of the ENTIRE POST on the front page of his site?
He wouldn't have went into that if you hadn't provoked him.
Achtung Franz! The comic

jackdark

Quote from: esperYou, sir, are an idiot.  I knew ad hominem

ad hom·i·nem   adj.:
A fallacy that attacks the person rather than dealing with the real issue in dispute.

Quote from: esperAnd then you couldn't even use a valid form of the word "polemic."

po·lem·ic  :

   1. A controversial argument, especially one refuting or attacking a specific opinion or doctrine.

   2. A person engaged in or inclined to controversy, argument, or refutation.

Therefore...

"ad hominem based polemicy" = argument based upon refuting or attacking a person (as opposed to the original subject matter) using the tactic of insulting personally, see "you sir are an idiot, etc.".

Thusly, you sir, are somewhat of an idiot.  But at least you like Dr. Who.

esper

Okay, but "polemicy" is not in any dictionary I can find as being a valid form of the word polemic. But that's not the issue.

I'm not sure exactly what's going on here. All I was trying to say in my initial post is that you sounded like you were the one making the "ad hominem polemicy" against Yahtzee. Please, try to see my point here. It doesn't sound like you're EVER talking about the game there, but rather going directly after the maker of the game. Kinoko and I both seem to have thought you weren't really trying to make constructive criticism of the game, but rather that you were tearing down the author for personal reasons. Re-read your post and try to tell me that's not how it sounds. If that's not so, then so be it, and I issue a partial apology (ie. I still think you SOUNDED that way, but I retract all my statements).

And don't think I'm a member of the Yahtzee cult. I would say the same things in any case if I thought someone were attacking someone without good reason. I liked the game. That's my opinion. You didn't, and that's yours, and you posted your reasons. However, you CAN NOT tell me that it doesn't look mighty suspect that you would just show up and start speaking directly to "Ben," as if you know him personally, about how his game is a failure. Does it not seem, if you were on the outside looking in, that you were a troll that just happened to have a problem with Yahtzee coming in to tear him down?

It's not my job to defend Yahtzee. Like I said, I don't even like the guy. But I like what he does. I've read his website. As a matter of fact, I saw the post you quoted, and thought, "man, this guy's messed up." However, I thought 1213 was awesome. There were alot of things that aggravated me, and I mentioned them here already, but it didn't lessen how much I enjoyed the game. It was almost nostalgic for me.

My question is this: Are you here to be a part of the community, or just to say you didn't like the game? The reason for everything I've said, most especially my initial sardonic comment, is hinged in this question.
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jackdark

Where in my post did I ever say "Ben Croshaw sucks." ?  :o

I ripped on his game design in 1213, or lack of, that was it.

I said Ben was undeniably talented... does that sound derogatory?

QuoteAre you here to be a part of the community, or just to say you didn't like the game? The reason for everything I've said, most especially my initial sardonic comment, is hinged in this question.

To be part of the community in regards to criticism would be "okay".   I could go on for ages about how much I love Cedric And The Revolution, or Emily Enough, or Maniac Mansion Deluxe... but what would be the point?  Those games are universally lauded for good reason.  I felt 1213 was well received in general due to its pedigree rather than its actual gameplay.  That bothered me, so I decided to just point out why I didn't like the game, and why I felt Ben was starting to slip.

I knew there'd be repercussions, but I also knew the emperor was naked this time.

For the record, I like Ben, and I even like you Esper.  You may harbor qualms, but you do it with gusto! ;)

Helli78

i played it a little. and its interesting.

the graphic remind me on some older commodore-64-games, i like that kind of "stuff". and i dont understand why a game MUST have, like some posters above told us, a high-end-special-GFX with Direct4D(!!Yes, 4D ;)   )?!!

the gameplay is interesting, every new screen you can discover something new...(okay, other games are the samelike....)

music... no comment, IMHO the intromusic doesnt fit really into the game, but that dont scares me up.
the heartbeat annoyes a little but it funny to watch and hear it...

story itself: nice'n' good one, i 'ld say!

esper

Alright, cool. I actually respect your ability to pull words out of thin air that I actually don't know! I used to read the dictionary for fun when I was a kid, so anyone who can stump me is okay in my book.

I liked the game. I disliked the exact same things as you, but it didn't hurt my enjoyment of the game. I agree that its pedigree might have assisted its ratings, but not from me. I just liked it because I LOVED Out of This World, and anything that can copy something like that using AGS is awesome to me. I've been wanting to make a clone of it for ages! I think the lack of (insert everything you mentioned here) is because of the attempt to do something like that with an engine not designed for it.

So, you like Doctor Who? As long as either Tom Baker or Jon Pertwee is your favorite incarnation of the Doctor, I think we can put our past petty squabbles behind us!
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jackdark

QuoteI LOVED Out of This World

Me too, and I hope you have seen this.

Can't beat that for free. ;)

jackdark


ManicMatt

OnEscapee! A classic Amiga game, on the PC? Cool! (I remember playing the amiga demo of it, it was a bit unfair when it came to instant deaths, but it had buckets of atmosphere and cool animation.)

Sorry I have yet to play 1213, nor does it interest me.

Kinoko

Quote from: jackdark on Sun 15/01/2006 11:43:34
In the end, Yahtzee and I saw eye to eye:=

But! But! You made fun of Animal Crossing! You monster! ;_; Next you'll attack my beloved Harvest Moon...

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