Music in commercial games

[Essex]

Hi,

I have a question about music in commercial games.

I have an idea for a game and would like to make it a commercial one, because I'm out of money.

I've already done some cutscenes and so on.

Now the problem:
I found some music that fits perfectly to my cutscenes and I couldn't think of changing the music by any other music.

The problem is, the music wasn't done by me so I won't be able to sell the game with music.

Do you think it's possible to sell just the game and the artwork of the game -let's say for three dollars- by itself and offer an additional download of the music vox file for free without getting any serious problems?

[Nikolas]

I wil be rather harsh, so excuse me in advance for this.

1. Being broke is no reason to go commercial. IF the game is no good, then your sales will be 0, people will not like you, critics will be bad, you won't get any money and you will feel that your time was wasted.
2. Making cutscenes based on existing music seems kidna strange.
3. You should definately contact the composers, or the people who have the copyrights at least.
4. Making money, using something that is not yours, and not giving anything to the peiople responsible is, the least I can say unfair. Imaginem e taking you rart, and making money otu of it, inderectly, by making a game and selling everything ,but the graphics (cannot work either way)...
5. Marekting wise it is a bad idea.
6. It is simply not possible to sell the game and have the music without the game (which will be directly conncted to the game).

Find an alternative, but make sure of No. 1 The game must be a great game, otherwise it will simply not sell!

[Vince Twelve]

Nik's right.

And even if the game were freeware and you weren't making money off of it, you shouldn't be distributing someone else's music without permission anyways.  So, trying to get by on a flimsy technicality by releasing the music pack as a separate, free, download, wouldn't work anyways.

Contact the copyright holders.  If that's not possible or they decline, there are lots of sites with public domain music or music released under various licenses that may allow you to include the music in a commercial product at no charge.  Search around.  Otherwise, there are lots of composers around on these forums that would probably be able to help you out for a small fee.  That gives you the added benefit of telling them the type of music you want rather than having to search endlessly through the web until you find something resembling it.

Good luck.

[Essex]

Thanks for the fast feedback!
But let me concretisize my idea:

The game I'm making is a medieval game.
I would like to use original music of medieval composers.
These composers are all dead since the 14th century.
There isn't any copyright on their music.
And they sure wouldn't mind me to use their music I think...
If someone would use my artwork in about 600 years from now, I would feel honoured.

The recordings I use for the game were done by myself at medieval concerts at a music school.
The players are young students without professional license but they play like professionists, at least for my ear.
The concerts didn't cost anything, they were free.
Nobody told me ever that I'm not allowed to make any recordings, although my micro was visible.

Do you think, that it is a big problem to use this in a high quality commercial adventure game?

[FSi++]

Try to contact that music school at least... They may have better recordings than yours.
Or use midis (I've seen a lot of medieval midi's somewhere, but I can't quite remember where).

[Nikolas]

The recordings I use for the game were done by myself at medieval concerts at a music school.
The players are young students without professional license but they play like professionists, at least for my ear.
The concerts didn't cost anything, they were free.
Nobody told me ever that I'm not allowed to make any recordings, although my micro was visible.

You didn't tell us that!

The music IS copyright free, surely enough! The recording is not. However there are HUGE chances that the students won't mind. Just find them, and contact them.

And have the whole thing sold or whatever and what not. Either way they did it for free... If they ask something, judge for yourself. If they ask you to buy them a beer/coke/lunch out just do it. If they ask you for 500$ each (and there are 3 performers) think about you budget and you financies. If they ask you for 5000$ each tell them to **** off!

Effectively you will be making money out of their job as well. They didn't do it because of you job, but they should get something out of it. No matter pros or not pros.

It is a good thing that they are not pros though as you can imagine.
But DEFINATELY contact them! ALL OF THEM!

[Radiant]

In my experience, if you ask around on internet music making forums, you can find people who don't mind at all if you use their music as long as you list them in the credits, even if you're going to make some small-scale money with it. Worked fine for my two semi-commercial releases. The thing is that you do have to ask them, of course.

[Stupot]

...And make sure that you keep records of any emails, letters, money that you send and receive.
This is so that if they turn around later and say that you never asked them, or that they didn't give you permission, you have the necessary proof to protect yourself.

[Radiant]

...And make sure that you keep records of any emails, letters, money that you send and receive.
This is so that if they turn around later and say that you never asked them, or that they didn't give you permission, you have the necessary proof to protect yourself.

Well, if you want that level of precaution, you need to get them to sign a contract, because an e-mail is hardly proof of anything.

[thewalrus]

     What is the story with this game that you want to try to go commercial with anyway? I mean is it gonna be any good?

[Nikolas]

Actually anything can be proof. An e-mail, a letter, even an oral contract "do you agree? Yes I do!" kind of thing.

but yes, sure keep everything.

first track down the students and let them know. Chances are they will say yes.
If not find midis to do your work.
If not find someone else to do it for you.

Although what Radiant says is true :'( I find it insulting that anyone would go around and ask for the work, time, effort and talent of anybody, without paying back. Simple is simple: You make money? Anybody involved in this should make money. Sadly music business is so bad these days, that anyone will go on and do it for free... :'(

So my advice is to work out some deal with the composer. And yes I'm quite sensetive to that. Cause if these freebie idiots were not around maybe I (and anyone else trying to make some money out of composing) would be better off. But now, everyone thinks that adding a name in the credits is enough...

By all means this has nothing to do with Radiant, who I respect the most. This has to do with 'composers' who go for free. And let me explain, that going for free in a free project is definately fine, heck I do it here. But going for free in a commercial effort, however small is bad! simply bad! And a problem for all the rest.

As a side note I do remember someone who was doing 1 minute of music for 5$! 5$! He was told off heavily of course... :-/ I mean, can you imagine EA going around and asking music for 100$ total? That's 20 minutes worth of music there.

Rant over.

[m0ds]

Also, if you're dealing with MP3's you're still dealing with a problem. There are too many license restrictions over MP3's for us amateur developers to worry about. If you were to sell an AGS game with MP3 music you would be risking a very high fine because the AGS engine with the MP3 player built in is illegal if soild commercially. It's possible to get a copy of the engine without MP3 support.

Making cutscenes based on existing music seems kidna strange.

I strongly disagree with this. A lot of my games (that you haven't seen) and films have spawned from a piece of music I like. I've sat and listened and thought roughly about what would fit, and then after placing music over the top realise it works perfectly. This isn't a strange process at all!

With that said, as the others have said, even if:

The recordings I use for the game were done by myself at medieval concerts at a music school.

They probably still needed a license to be able to play those particular songs. Selling these recordings on, even if it's hidden with a game that no-one from those concerts may ever know about, is illegal. You'll need to find out more about what THEY had to do to be able to play the music before you can consider selling it! That isn't to say it may turn out that the music is public domain. Like you say very old music is often copyright free. If you were selling it between friends then that wouldn't be a problem. As soon as you decide to post it on the internet for sale, you're looking at big corporations swooping down on you. And trust me, it DOES happen!

Everyone is saying you should strike a deal with the composer, but your post gives me the impression the composers are all dead... If that's the case, do some thorough research into any possible copyright holders and if there really aren't any, you'll probably get away with it.

But now, everyone thinks that adding a name in the credits is enough...

Well, I agree - but you could always ask!! I guess we just have to wait for the commercial developers to start asking some of the better AGS composers...

[Nikolas]

mOds: I agree with what you say about the cutscene, but I get the impression that you designed the cutscenes (and films) yourself, in which case your'e the same person. Normally one does not take a song by x, or a track by n and makes the cutscene based to that. Never the less thre are exceptions

Attention to the detail though:

Copyright comes in 3 cases:

i. The music. The composition. copyright of the music expires 75 years after the death of the composer (in most cases, but anyways all composition writen in 1400 are free!). That's a certainty!
ii. The publication. Did the students use a score that is still copyrighted? Cause scores are also copyrighted. If so there could be an issue (although it is VERY FAR STRETCHED!)
iii. The recording. The students, or school, have the copyright of the recording you want to use. That is who you need to contact. All the rest are free most probably.

As for the paying composers, I'm actually quite happy with the so far commercial ventures of AGS games. Diamonds in the Rough is paying the composer (me :p). Shivah and Blackwell legacy I can only assume that Peter got paid (and the soundtrack is been sold), and Super Jazz Man was done by Geoffkhan himself, so no issue there. Al Emmo paid the composer(s) (2 actually, a couple), and the soundtrack is for sale.

So AGS games are not an issue, actually. But other games are tbh...

Mainly the problem lies with films. Where there is always a budget, as it is largely more expensive to shoot a film (equipment wise only, plus the actors etc...) and there is almost always a budget, on which somehow the composer is always left out...

[m0ds]

I see your point Nikolas. Oh well, good job we aren't all making films! I have no idea how much they get paid for films though. Payments in this community are very respectable though. I did the Fatman score for roughly £200, which was extremely fair. It was MIDI afterall.

[Essex]

Ok, the music I want to use is definately not copyrighted itself.
About the musicians: I know most of them personally.
I don't think it's a big problem, but I'm not sure if they used some kind of reconstuction of a score that is copyrighted so far...


Now what about the mp3?

I didn't play any of the commercial AGS games so far, that's why I would like to know how they did. Did they just use wav, mid or ogg format and the mp3 free AGS edition?


And another thing: If you decide to make a reinterpretation of a game classic, that has been released as abandonware and you want to use a part of the original title in your game, is this a copyright problem too?

Stupid Example: Let's say you make a reinterpretation of the game "Gobliins" and you call it: "Gob-Liins" or "Goblins"

And last thing:
If you make a freeware game but you use copyrighted music, that you actually recutted somehow, is this legal? I got along some AGS games in the database that definately use remixed soundtracks of movies or orchestral music like "Project Xenophobe", "Stargate Adventure", or these "Earl Bobby" games...is this possible without problems?

[Nikolas]

Ok, the music I want to use is definately not copyrighted itself.
About the musicians: I know most of them personally.
I don't think it's a big problem, but I'm not sure if they used some kind of reconstuction of a score that is copyrighted so far...

Ok! That sound fine, and don't worry about the scores too much, it's to far stretched...

Now what about the mp3?

There is a misunderstanding with the mp3 that needs resolving sometimes.

There are 2 different issues with mp3, the mp3 itself (the coding of the compression) and the player, which is the decoder.

In order to use the decoder (an mp3 player) you usually have to pay something. I don't know how AGS deals with it, if it is settled or not and so on. Usually freeware games don't create any problem as there is no revenue.

In order to play mp3s you don't need a license. BUT if your revenue reaches above 100,00$ then you need to pay 3% to the mp3 license holders. That won't happen so nothing top worry about.

Generally use ogg. Not only free, but better. Don't see any reason why not.

[quoteI didn't play any of the commercial AGS games so far, that's why I would like to know how they did. Did they just use wav, mid or ogg format and the mp3 free AGS edition?

They most probably used ogg.

And another thing: If you decide to make a reinterpretation of a game classic, that has been released as abandonware and you want to use a part of the original title in your game, is this a copyright problem too?

The reinterpretation probably not. I mean you can go ahead and do however many tetris, pcman or MI clones you want... But the use of the title could be. I'm not sure though...

[Radiant]

Although what Radiant says is true :'( I find it insulting that anyone would go around and ask for the work, time, effort and talent of anybody, without paying back.

Well, to be fair, in my first project I asked everyone for new work in exchange for a share in the profit, but that turned out rather messy because a lot of people didn't actually do the things they promised, and of course the profit turned out to be zero since the project didn't go anywhere. For my second project I simply asked people if I could use some stuff they already made, so they didn't do any actual work for me, they just let me use some songs/pictures from their portfolio, non-exclusive. Profit was non-zero and useful for me since I was a poor student at the time, but split evenly between the twenty or so people involved it would have become neglegible. But I later decided that making games for free is more fun anyway.

Stupid Example: Let's say you make a reinterpretation of the game "Gobliins" and you call it: "Gob-Liins" or "Goblins"

Well, the term "abandonware" has no legal meaning. So what you'd be doing is copyright infringement, if you're using the chararacters or distinctive likenesses. If you're just using the general idea, you'd be in the clear.

If you make a freeware game but you use copyrighted music, that you actually recutted somehow, is this legal?

No. At least technically no, if your game is freeware you'll probably get away with it.

[Essex]

Stupid Example: Let's say you make a reinterpretation of the game "Gobliins" and you call it: "Gob-Liins" or "Goblins"

Well, the term "abandonware" has no legal meaning. So what you'd be doing is copyright infringement, if you're using the chararacters or distinctive likenesses. If you're just using the general idea, you'd be in the clear.

No, I'm just talking about the title.
Lets say you make a game that is called "monkey island" or "island of the monkeys" but it has nothing to do with the original game. It's completely different, but the title fits somehow for some reason. The word "monkey" isn't copyrighted, and the word "island" can't be copirighted as well, but is the combination of two common words copyrighted?

[Radiant]

Lets say you make a game that is called "monkey island" or "island of the monkeys" but it has nothing to do with the original game.

Not copyrighted, but "Monkey Island" happens to be a registered trademark owned by LucasArts. So legally speaking, not a good idea.

Also, if your game has nothing to do with the Monkey Island series, then calling it Monkey Island anyway is likely to get you a lot of negative criticism by disgruntled fans who hoped that it was related.

[Essex]

Not copyrighted, but "Monkey Island" happens to be a registered trademark owned by LucasArts. So legally speaking, not a good idea.

Also, if your game has nothing to do with the Monkey Island series, then calling it Monkey Island anyway is likely to get you a lot of negative criticism by disgruntled fans who hoped that it was related.

Well, this wasn't a good example, I guess.

I mean you use the title of an old game that has been underappreciated for a long time. The game has a lot of fans who are waiting for some kind of a reinterpretation or redevelopement. I think "Dreamweb" or "Death Gate" are better examples.

Now you make a game, that is somehow unique in it's way, but it is inspired by one of these underappreciated, ancient games so there would be certain coincidences between the original and the reinterpretation. Apart from this you use a part of the original title.
Let's say "Dream-Web" or perhaps a bit more creative...

This would let the fans know somehow, that there is a reinterpretation of the game. Let's say that the game is much better than the original and is exactly what the fans were looking for.

Is there a problem with copyright and advertising in this case?