Ideal age/Now mostly about Religion and Religious Upbringing

Started by Helm, Mon 16/04/2007 21:47:35

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Raggit

Helm, you are brilliant.  In any debate, even if I agree with you or not, I've always admired how intelligently you approach everything.

It's interesting, the idea of automatically viewing the existence of God as outlandish is outlandish to me.  I hope I can get where you're at, because I'm sick and tired of all the old voices ringing in my head about "You have to have faith in God, and you should be ready to go when he comes back, and your sins will find you out" and on and on and on. 

Ah, for the joy of an independent mind!
--- BARACK OBAMA '08 ---
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Helm

Quote"You have to have faith in God, and you should be ready to go when he comes back, and your sins will find you out"

Oh man, that's scary! Why would a person inflict this mental illness on another?!
WINTERKILL

MrColossal

It's like Dawkins said in that video, Raggit. You are athiestic towards Thor and Allah and all that. You know what it's like to not believe in something already, to be totally confused as to why someone would believe in something, it just needs to be extended a tiny bit. Easier written on a forum then done!

Anyway, I strongly recommend the Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast. Hopefully you can appreciate their humor but the host and president of the New England Skeptical Society Steve Novella is an academic neurologist on full-time faculty at Yale University School of Medicine. So when he talks about the brain, he knows what he says! They talk a lot about pseudoscience but sometimes they talk about things like how people with epillepsy in certain parts of the brain are hyper-religious [raising the question, are humans hard wired to create faith?] and how one can induce near death experiences on a medical table without killing anyone. I wish I could point you to a specific podcast but they have over 90 of them and the newer ones are better than the older especially after getting Rebecca Watson in on it.

Randi.org is another place I frequent, again it's mostly about pseudoscience but there's so much there about everything that it's worth it. Check out his investigations into Peter Popoff and other faith healers.

Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris was good, sort of a primer to The End of Faith if you don't feel like reading an entire book...

The God Delusion by Dawkins is something I just finished up on. If you read up on Cargo Cults that might help put things in perspective too. Entire religions springing up seemingly out of no where with outrageous beliefs and customs all within the last 40 years! Amazing!

If you ever do give Dawkins a chance and you find yourself flinching at his frank demeanor, think back to any time you've heard a fundementalist say so and so was going to hell for all eternity because they hold a seperate belief.. That's insulting.
"This must be a good time to live in, since Eric bothers to stay here at all"-CJ also: ACHTUNG FRANZ!

Steel Drummer

#303
Religion be damned! I'm becoming a Pastafarian!

Seriously, I'm a Christian, and although Christians tend to disagree with the LDS/Mormon church/cult, monkey_05_06 is actually the only person who has posted that I agree with. Kudos.
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Gord10

Now there is something else I'm wondering.
As Erenan asked; "Why ethics?"

Most of us think that if a good God exists, He would judge us with our morals more importantly than our worships and religious necessities; don't we think that way? God wants us to be good people.
But why? Why we suppose the morals to be so important?
I think it is just because we can't think of something else to be judged with. Only the worships/religious works and the moral actions. Does someone in world think that God will judge people according on how much they jump with scissors in their hands ("OK, you have jumped with scissors 6 hours per day, you may go to Heaven") how many apples they ate instead of oranges ("You have eaten 50,000 oranges but only 20,000 apples! Go to Hell!") or something else unreasonable to judge you can even imagine?

Why we believe we will be judged by our moral actions is because there is nothing other reasonable act (except worship) to do.

And another point:
How can we be sure God is really good?
I have an aphorism: "God is not evil, Evil is God."
Of course I can't prove my aphorism, but it is what I believe. How can we be sure God won't send us ALL people to Hell; if he is able to burn the people eternally who were good, but not believing in true religion?
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Steel Drummer

God judges people on their actions, but actions aren't what's going to get you into heaven. Salvation is sort of like the cake, and good actions are like the icing, etc. Once God redeems you, you can't be 'unsaved'. Sure, you can distance yourself from God, maybe even turn your back on Him (like Raggit and a few others have), but eventually God will probably. I had an uncle who passed away about 4 years ago, who was brought up as a Christian, going to church, etc. but after his childhood didn't really follow any of that. In his 70s, he found out that he had lung cancer (from smoking too much). His wife was a nominal Christian, and she got him to talk to a minister. Over the next few years, he'd talk on a regular basis with the minister, and soon after that he came back to Christianity, and was baptized. Now, this guy had lived a not so great life- smoking, drinking, frequent cussing, etc. He didn't let that stop him from being baptized. 2 years after being baptized, he passed away. Sure, he probably won't get rewarded for good deeds, but he's in heaven. Doing good deeds are supposed to complement faith- not the other way around. If you have faith in Jesus/God, blah blah blah, then you can go to heaven, no matter what you've done. If you also practice good actions, you'll be rewarded after you die. So if you have faith without good deeds, you're not really pleasing God as mush as you should. If you have good deeds without faith, you're not going anywhere special in the afterlife. 

Quote from: Gord10
Most of us think that if a good God exists, He would judge us with our morals more importantly than our worships and religious necessities; don't we think that way? God wants us to be good people.
But why? Why we suppose the morals to be so important?
I think it is just because we can't think of something else to be judged with. Only the worships/religious works and the moral actions. Does someone in world think that God will judge people according on how much they jump with scissors in their hands ("OK, you have jumped with scissors 6 hours per day, you may go to Heaven") how many apples they ate instead of oranges ("You have eaten 50,000 oranges but only 20,000 apples! Go to Hell!") or something else unreasonable to judge you can even imagine?

Corporate mega-churches have turned Christianity into just another 'religion', where everyone has to wear their WWJD bracelets, put on their fish symbols on their cars, only listen to 'Christian' music, and then God will bless them. God judges people (I think) based on how they have served those in need. In Matthew 25 (I forget which verses, too lazy to look 'em up), after Christ is judging the nations for their deeds, He says, "Have run the race, and kept the faith? Have you clothed Me when I was naked? Have you fed Me when I was hungry? When I was thirsty, did you give Me something to drink? When I was a stranger, did you invite Me in? When I was sick, did you visit Me? and in prison, did you come to Me?" To which the judged people reply, "Lord, when did we see you naked, and hungry, and thirsty, and a stranger, and sick, and in prison?" And Jesus replies, "Whatever extent that you did these things to the least of people, you did it to Me."

So in other words, whatever we did to/for other people, is also what we are doing to Jesus, and that's what our actions are going to be judged upon.
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Andail

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 14:50:15
And Jesus replies, "Whatever extent that you did these things to the least of people, you did it to Me."

Yeah, that is an excellent quote. Of all bible passages, that's one of my favourite.

Raggit

It's nice to hear somebody talking sense, Steel Drummer.   :)

If more Christians spent time in helping the needy and being compassionate instead of judgemental, I would feel a little different.

However, I do have to give credit to the church (Seventh-Day Adventists) that I was raised in and departed from.  They DO put a lot of effort into distaster relief (which I participated in, only half-willingly, though.  I was just sort of dragged there by my parents.)

And they also stock up food for poor families and the homeless.  Every church member brings some food items, and they put them all into a big food pantry and distribute it. 

That is the kind of behavior I think that they SUPPOSED to have, but all the time their doing that, they're also very fundamentalistic, and many times have a holier-than-thou attitude, because THEY go to church on Saturday instead of Sunday, and THEY don't eat meat, and THEY don't wear any jewelry, and there's no excuse for anybody who doesn't abide by Adventist doctrine if  "God's truth" has already been shared with them.
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MrColossal

7th Day Adventurist? What do you think of the 7 Days series?

Jess and I have a common desire that churches [when not being used for mass prayer] should be houses for the homeless. You've got this huge building that pays no taxes just sitting there being useless most of the day why not open the doors and let homeless people stay in each and every one of them! I think churches in NYC go so far as allowing homeless people to sleep on their steps.
"This must be a good time to live in, since Eric bothers to stay here at all"-CJ also: ACHTUNG FRANZ!

Mr Flibble

My favourite Bible quote is one of the following.
Jesus saying, "You have chosen wisely...do this and you will live." Just because it's so out of character. It's like a quote from a movie trailer.

That, or "God does not like that." from Leviticus 18. Just because it's so out of place in the passage and has been, quite blatantly, added into the passage at a later date.

Since we're talking about religious backgrounds now, I might as well share mine. My parents haven't been to church since they were little children, with my dad being an atheist and my mum being agnostic. My mum doesn't bother with church or anything because she thinks that if there is any god, then living a good life is enough. Which she would be doing anyway.

I remember being in primary school, and being taught about Jesus and various miracles. I really wish I could remember how I reacted to it all. I think I took it as... something that was learnt. Like history or English. I remember reading it, learning it, drawing the pictures, and then not feeling anything else about it. My first memories of thinking about religion in a meaningful way would be a Christmas carol service, when I began to think "What the hell?"

I didn't quite follow why everyone was getting so excited. I mean, I'd prayed for bikes and magic powers a bunch of times and that didn't happen. When I moved into grammar school, I chose to go to a catholoc school. However, this is because it is right next to my house  :D .

Hilariously, I'm top of the year in RE. Apparently, believing in god can seriously impair your ability to... know anything about god. Being in Northern Ireland, religion is usually a big thing. I'm happy to be able to say that I went to a Protestant primary school, currently go to a Catholic grammar school, and feel nothing. It also makes me all nice and cross-community.

My attitude towards religion today is quite apathetic. I don't parade my atheism, and they don't try to convert me. On the one hand, religion does some good things for society. It makes worthless people feel good about themselves and gives hope to people in dire situations. It has its dangers as well, for instance when people try to infringe liberties on the basis of religion, but I guess I'll have to deal with those.

I don't think Christians should just drop their beliefs instantly, because I tell them to. But I would like if they had studied their faith in the same depth I have. I have a ridiculously happy life, and I have tremendous inner peace. You know, all that stuff you're supposed to only get from churches.
Ah! There is no emoticon for what I'm feeling!

Tartalo

I grew in a Catholic family and was a good Christian until I really read the Bible and saw really how primitive and naive were the foundations of what was my ethic, my guide to life.

Declaring I didn't believe "all that bullshit", politeness in not my virtue, only brought me many discussions and problems at home and school. It was a religious school too.

I started looking different sources making  own errors, taking own conclusions to elaborate my ethic, one I could believe. It was a hard job, and after all the mess I have more or less the same ethics as my parents.

And not only that, I can do nothing to stop a President bombing peoples houses 'cos God told' him.

So kids, don't read. You'll only suffer more.

Steel Drummer

Quote from: Mr Flibble on Sat 28/04/2007 17:24:18
Hilariously, I'm top of the year in RE. Apparently, believing in god can seriously impair your ability to... know anything about god. Being in Northern Ireland, religion is usually a big thing. I'm happy to be able to say that I went to a Protestant primary school, currently go to a Catholic grammar school, and feel nothing. It also makes me all nice and cross-community.

Most kids in a Christian school are turned off from hearing about God because the Bible is treated more like a textbook than a guidebook for living.

Quote from: MrColossal on Sat 28/04/2007 16:54:39
Jess and I have a common desire that churches [when not being used for mass prayer] should be houses for the homeless. You've got this huge building that pays no taxes just sitting there being useless most of the day why not open the doors and let homeless people stay in each and every one of them! I think churches in NYC go so far as allowing homeless people to sleep on their steps.

That's true, but the churches should also be ministering to the homeless. It seems like churches nowadays are scared to tell anyone about Christ for fear of offending someone. Yet..

Quote from: Raggit on Sat 28/04/2007 15:57:56

If more Christians spent time in helping the needy and being compassionate instead of judgemental, I would feel a little different.

A lot of Christians are hypocrites, especially concerning music. They feel that if a band doesn't mention God in every song then it's bad to listen to. Or if it's not a 'CCM' or a 'Christian' band, then it's bad. That's really, really, hypocritical. What's wrong with jazz music? Half of the songs don't even have vocals in them! And the 'Christian' music scene looks just like the secular one. If I didn't know a band was 'Christian' (so called, at least), then I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. For example:
P.O.D. (A 'Christian' group)

Rage Against The Machine (secular group)
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Damien

Quote...because the Bible is treated more like a textbook than a guidebook for living.
I can't agree that's a bad thing.
QuoteThat's true, but the churches should also be ministering to the homeless.
No, they'd be taking the homeless in because they act like Jesus wants them to. Forcing something down their throats in return is the opposite.
QuoteIt seems like churches nowadays are scared to tell anyone about Christ for fear of offending someone.
They're worried about offending people, except there was that one time when the Pope compared atheists to satanists.
Quote
QuoteAnd Jesus replies, "Whatever extent that you did these things to the least of people, you did it to Me."
Yeah, that is an excellent quote. Of all bible passages, that's one of my favourite.
But, why is the image of Jesus needed here? Can't you look at someone else and see another human being that's equal to you?

Steel Drummer

#313
Quote from: Damien on Sat 28/04/2007 19:10:38
Quote...because the Bible is treated more like a textbook than a guidebook for living.
I can't agree that's a bad thing.

So you think being overly legalistic is good?

Quote from: Damien
No, they'd be taking the homeless in because they act like Jesus wants them to. Forcing something down their throats in return is the opposite.
Telling someone that the only way to be saved is through Jesus isn't 'forcing it down their throat', it's telling them that they need forgiveness for their sins. Opening up a church and letting them in is great, but that doesn't grant them salvation.

Wow... this is getting as off-topic as.........

Except longer, and with more topics. This is, hands down, the most interesting thread I've ever seen.
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Meowster

hahaha.

It's so funny that people still believe in god and jesus.

It's so primitive, it really is. It's so unbelievably primitive and silly.

silly people.

I love hearing religious people argue and try to convince people, including themselves, that god is real. You have no idea, being religious and actually believing yourselves... you have no idea how funny and stupid it looks to anybody with half a brain. Anybody with a bit of "cop on" as they say in Ireland...

In this day and age, that people still believe in invisible fairies in the sky is pretty sad.

Damien

QuoteSo you think being overly legalistic is good?
No, because laws are like religion and gods - human products. And humans make mistakes.

QuoteTelling someone that the only way to be saved is through Jesus
Is it? You're saying this as it's a fact. And why? Because the book with the cross says so.

I guess you believe this to be 100% true. Now, imagine you were born on Islam territory. There would be another truth for you and you would swear in it like you do now.

Besides, that's just what I was talking about (forcing it down).

Jesus did not die for me.
Do not pray for me, I'll be fine.
I was not a product of sin and wasn't born in one so stop using scare tactics on me.

QuoteOpening up a church and letting them in is great, but that doesn't grant them salvation.
No, a steady job and a place to live is their salvation.

LimpingFish

I think it's the fear that's instilled at a young age that keeps people believing, even if it's just a tiny little pinprick of "belief" at the back of their minds.

A sense of "I don't believe in God...not really...I mean, I don't believe in him, but..." that keeps people from totally separating themselves from the pseudo-faith impressed upon them by organized religion.
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Steel Drummer

So what do you believe? Random creatures evolving from primordial ooze after a random bang that happened in the universe? How could God not exist? Everything in creation is so complex, it couldn't have happened randomly. Scientists have barely even scratched the surface of the human body, let alone anything else. Less than 20% of species have even been discovered yet.
Quote from: Meowster on Sat 28/04/2007 19:29:17
hahaha.


It's so funny that people still believe in god and jesus.

It's so primitive, it really is. It's so unbelievably primitive and silly.

silly people.

I love hearing religious people argue and try to convince people, including themselves, that god is real. You have no idea, being religious and actually believing yourselves... you have no idea how funny and stupid it looks to anybody with half a brain. Anybody with a bit of "cop on" as they say in Ireland...

In this day and age, that people still believe in invisible fairies in the sky is pretty sad.

Yeah... Fairies. Right. It's pretty sad not to believe in a God. Give some reasons why it's so primitive. 

Quote from: Damien
Quote
So you think being overly legalistic is good?

No, because laws are like religion and gods - human products. And humans make mistakes.

Quote
Telling someone that the only way to be saved is through Jesus

Is it? You're saying this as it's a fact. And why? Because the book with the cross says so.

I guess you believe this to be 100% true. Now, imagine you were born on Islam territory. There would be another truth for you and you would swear in it like you do now.

Besides, that's just what I was talking about (forcing it down).

Quote
Opening up a church and letting them in is great, but that doesn't grant them salvation.

No, a steady job and a place to live is their salvation.

It baffles me how quick you people are to reject God and Jesus Christ. Why not reject Allah? Buddha? Shiva? Guru Nanak? 

Quote
Jesus did not die for me.
Do not pray for me, I'll be fine.
I was not a product of sin and wasn't born in one so stop using scare tactics on me.

Well, at least blasphemy against Christ is forgivable by Him. But blaspheming the Holy Spirit... that's another issue. All of you- so stiff necked! Why do you all curse in Christ's name? Why not Allah's?

Quote
Is it? You're saying this as it's a fact. And why? Because the book with the cross says so.

I guess you believe this to be 100% true. Now, imagine you were born on Islam territory. There would be another truth for you and you would swear in it like you do now.

Islam kills itself off with blatant contradictions. In some places it takes an almost biblical stance on violence, then it says to beat your wife.
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vict0r

QuoteIt baffles me how quick you people are to reject God and Jesus Christ. Why not reject Allah? Buddha? Shiva? Guru Nanak? 

I believe that the people you are referring to here do this. They recject religion! And I support them fully.

QuoteYeah... Fairies. Right. It's pretty sad not to believe in a God. Give some reasons why it's so primitive. 

What I believe is the reason for religion is that people did not know what were happening. Different happenings in nature that seemed confusing and unexplainable (maybe even magic) would have screwed with their head to believe that what they saw was over-natural and they would eventually start praying to someone/something for the good things to keep happening and for the tornadoes and stuff to piss off.

[Well, at least blasphemy against Christ is forgivable by Him. But blaspheming the Holy Spirit... that's another issue. All of you- so stiff necked! Why do you all curse in Christ's name? Why not Allah's? ]

Your god and holy spirit can go to hell for all I care. Because they all exist in your head! This counts for all gods. No matter who made them up.

Steel Drummer

Quote
What I believe is the reason for religion is that people did not know what were happening. Different happenings in nature that seemed confusing and unexplainable (maybe even magic) would have screwed with their head to believe that what they saw was over-natural and they would eventually start praying to someone/something for the good things to keep happening and for the tornadoes and stuff to piss off.

Haha! :D Magic??! That's kid's stuff. You seriously are telling me that you are an atheist, yet you believe in magic. 

Quote from: vict0r
Your god and holy spirit can go to hell for all I care. Because they all exist in your head! This counts for all gods. No matter who made them up.
So if they don't exist, how can they go to hell?

Vict0r, why don't you go to hell, and then see what you think of God. And while you're at it, read the Bible. Get some answers about life, instead of believing in magic, like something straight out of a Disney film.
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