Ideal age/Now mostly about Religion and Religious Upbringing

Started by Helm, Mon 16/04/2007 21:47:35

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Gord10

Quote from: Nikolas on Sat 28/04/2007 22:36:08
Really, just stop talking abuot Islam. you are taking the 0.00001% of the islamic population and make judgement on that!
To be honest; I must say I agree with the SteelDrummer's thoughts about "Jihad". It is not the 0.00001% of the islamic population; but much more. I can even say I believe that people like me and Babar are the minority of the population.
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voh

Quote from: Gord10 on Sat 28/04/2007 22:52:55
To be honest; I must say I agree with the SteelDrummer's thoughts about "Jihad". It is not the 0.00001% of the islamic population; but much more. I can even say I believe that people like me and Babar are the minority of the population.

And I am glad there are people like you and Babar, because you guys show it's more of a cultural thing than purely a religion thing :)
Still here.

Meowster

I was taught religion in school, and science and evolution at school. I was taught both, and each class contradicted the other on a daily basis.

I realise that evolution is the closest thing to the truth: we see it in action every single day for heavens sake.

When do you see the work of god in action?

religion class, to me, always just seemed silly and a waste of my time... it's like learning and analysing the Never Ending Story or something... okay it was good to learn about other peoples religions because obviously they're very important, but since I'm from Ireland, there was always a pressure to force catholism on me, which I disliked... had it been purely about learning other peoples beliefs, it may have been okay...

It's so amazing to me, that religious people steadfastly believe in their god and yet never have an encounter with him in their lives. The only thing they know about this god is what they've been TOLD. He never contacts them, encourages them, speaks to them, gives them anything, gives them any sign he's there... and yet they defend him in the face of everything... it's ridiculous. I dunno, I really am amazed that people like that still exist.


Steel Drummer, I'm really curious... how are you so certain that god exists? How do YOU, personally, know that he exists? And if the answer is that the world is too complex to have created itself... how do you KNOW that ANOTHER god didn't create the world? How are you sure that your religion is the ONE?

ManicMatt

If the faith is well placed, and it gives them hope, strength and guidance, then I don't see the harm. I've needed that myself in the past. (Being an open minded non-religion centric person thinga-mabob)

Meowster

The thing that offends me though is the belief that other people who don't believe the same as you, will go to hell. It offends me. I think it's an absolutely disgusting thing to believe, and anybody who DOES blieve that should be utterly ashamed of themselves. Somebody could be a wonderful person, and yet suffer in "hell" for eternity because they don't WORSHIP some second-rate, cruel, pointless little god. I mean, let's pretend for a second that that is even a realistic idea. It's shit.

I went to a catholic school, and most people there believed in god. They had a nice view of religion though... God, in their eyes, created everything and watched over everyone, and if someone died, he wouldn't be judgemental and all  hell and fury and fire on them...  he'd take them to heaven and look after them for eternity. In fact, they didn't even believe there was a hell... God was just like a parent who looked after all of his children. That is a much nicer view of god in my eyes. It's a nice, warm, comfortable idea, and that concept of god is truly someone worth liking.

I remember one girl joined the school once... she was a missionary from Brazil. She told a lesbian girl in my class that she'd go to hell unless she changed her ways. I became friends with this girl (I'm a friendly person in real life, believe it or not... you might not guess it from my forum behaviour eh?). I became friends with her because nobody else would, and I felt sorry for her being left out and alone...

After a few weeks, she told me that I would go to hell unless I followed christ or whatever, and asked me to come home and have her parents teach me about him. When I said no thanks, she told me mournfully that I would burn in hell forever. She ACTUALLY SAID THAT. And expected me to be her friend.

and that's what I don't understand... she looked around her and saw that many of her lovely friends were going to burn in hell for eternity... people that she KNEW were good, and she KNEW were lovely.... and she "knew" that they were going to burn in hell forever and yet she worshipped the god that would do that to them!?!??

Anyway... people can believe in god and I really don't mind that. But this idea that people who don't go to hell or are in any way inferior to you? Haha. Bullshit.

Raggit

Steel Drummer,

I know exactly how you feel right now.  You're totally surrounded here by people who don't share your views, and you're trying to defend what you believe is the absolute truth.  (Note the word "believe")

We all have different beliefs.  The difference between you and me is that I don't think you're fundamentally wrong for what you BELIEVE and that you're going to go to some place of eternal punishment and damnation.

I remember trying to "witness" to people on these boards back when I still believed in God and Jesus, and all it did was stir up debate, which is not always a bad thing.  Though I know it upset me far more than it upset anybody else, because I was a fundamentalist Christian, and fundamentalists Christians are put into position, by the very nature of their religion, where it's all or nothing.  I would encourage anybody who has an all or nothing attitude towards ANY idea, philosophy, religion, whatever, to think it through really objectively, and see if there's any holes in the logic anywhere.

I was raised to think independently about everything else EXCEPT religion.  I knew HOW to think for myself, I just never dared to apply that same logic and power of mind to my religion, because it was where I had staked everything, including "eternal life."

I was very defensive because I was afraid of finding those holes, and finding that I was wrong.  But now, I can admit that I was wrong, and I've grown as a person because of it.  (Note:  I said that I was wrong, not you.)

And I could very well be wrong now.  Because we cannot prove the existence of God, a creator, or intelligent life beyond us.  Nor can we disprove it, so I say, to each his own. 
--- BARACK OBAMA '08 ---
www.barackobama.com

Helm

I love how christian people have a hard time accepting that atheists lead happy lives. My absolute favourite though was being accused of 'not being fun' because I don't believe in gods.

Actually, what I'd like is for a shift in the burden of truth really. People that say they believe in a god, I want them to explain to me in detail what this entity is, and what it does. 'Cause I've never heard a definition of a God that made any sense at all.

Now I know, people say 'sense? I don't need no sense, I have faith in God!'. But if you can't even explain what your god is, what you're basically saying is 'I have faith in faith!' Good going.
WINTERKILL

Tartalo

Quote from: Babar on Sat 28/04/2007 21:52:23
Heheheheh...like someone who mentions that God is primative and silly? Where's the IMO there?
This is the second time you mention and I think I was the one who said "bullshit" and primitive.

I used these words telling a personal experience because they expressed with few words that it was a conflictive transition. Sorry if I offended you (too).

Anyway I hope that you agree with me that at least some of the examples I posted are "primitive" / unnacceptable / right word here / from the current point of view. And you are right Steel Drumer, religions abandon partially texts but keep still as the word of God some of them.

What worries me is this "word of god", dogma, thing you can't question because it's like it is. To most of people it only helps them to be good persons, but sometimes some get worried if the neighbor is having oral sex with her wife, or deny that humankind sharing knowledge for thousands of years can arrive to a better understanding of the world than our ancestors, or even worse, purify the brothers with fire. Why?

Having own principles that you can explain makes you being a good person easier, but as long as you are, like most, a good and reasonable person that doesn't interfere in other persons life in a disturbing manner, I don't really mind if some of your principles have as a basis a "God likes it"

Steel Drummer

Quote from: Nikolas
S.D.:

About Islam: I am (officially) an orthodox crhistian and yet I find what you say extremely offensive!

Really, just stop talking abuot Islam. you are taking the 0.00001% of the islamic population and make judgement on that!

what if I told you that the Ko che guy (Viginia killings? 33 of them?) was a christian! How would you feel? What about the crusades and all the stuff that all religions have done over periods of time... You have been greatly misinformed and still try to pass your ill informed views as facts...

Sorry mate, but I just can't except what you say about Islam (or the teaching in scholols part but so many posts already, no need to even mention it furhter)

So you're more offended by it than a Muslim? Like I said before, I don't hate Muslims, I hate their beliefs. Are you offended by that? 

I know that the so called Christians' started the Crusades. Those were started to gain power, not for any religious reasons, and Christians also killed Jews during the Crusades- on top of that, in a certain village they had pillaged, they devoured the flesh of those they had killed (even women and children), so yeah- the crusades were kind of a blow on Christianity.

Quote
Steel Drummer,

I know exactly how you feel right now.  You're totally surrounded here by people who don't share your views, and you're trying to defend what you believe is the absolute truth.  (Note the word "believe")

We all have different beliefs.  The difference between you and me is that I don't think you're fundamentally wrong for what you BELIEVE and that you're going to go to some place of eternal punishment and damnation.

I remember trying to "witness" to people on these boards back when I still believed in God and Jesus, and all it did was stir up debate, which is not always a bad thing.  Though I know it upset me far more than it upset anybody else, because I was a fundamentalist Christian, and fundamentalists Christians are put into position, by the very nature of their religion, where it's all or nothing.  I would encourage anybody who has an all or nothing attitude towards ANY idea, philosophy, religion, whatever, to think it through really objectively, and see if there's any holes in the logic anywhere.

I was raised to think independently about everything else EXCEPT religion.  I knew HOW to think for myself, I just never dared to apply that same logic and power of mind to my religion, because it was where I had staked everything, including "eternal life."

I was very defensive because I was afraid of finding those holes, and finding that I was wrong.  But now, I can admit that I was wrong, and I've grown as a person because of it.  (Note:  I said that I was wrong, not you.)

And I could very well be wrong now.  Because we cannot prove the existence of God, a creator, or intelligent life beyond us.  Nor can we disprove it, so I say, to each his own. 
So essentially you're saying I need to 'grow out of myself', and turn my back on God? Look, why doesn't everyone just forget whatever comments I said, and get back to the innuendo that this thread was known for.
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Meowster

They ate the flesh of women and children? What? Literally?

Fee

Having Faith about somthing when there is no evidence to prove its existance does not prove your devition to God. It mearly shows the rest of us how gullible or stupid you are.
I can understand people in poor countries with no education believing in "God" but why the hell do Educated people still insist in believeing?
I wouldnt have a problem with small community based chruches that promote family and help out the local communities, if it wasnt for the religious stuff that is.
Large international Churches are as bad as Large international Corperations. They have the same agenda, to keep us poor and sick so we look to them for help. To get rich at our expense. They want things to be like they were 500 years ago when the church basically had controll of entire countries or most of Europe.

If someone wants to believen in a particular Religion, i wont attempt to convince them otherwise. To do so would make me as bad as a Jehovas Witness or one of those other morons who go around attempting to recruit you. If they cant see the truth themselves, then i dont see much hope for them anyway.

[Cameron]

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 22:19:53
(some Islamic countries even allow polygamy).
You say that as if it's intended to be shocking. To me it's not shocking, I personally am not interested in polygamy, but if someone is in love with more than one person and they can find a working relationship between the 3 people involved (or more) than why stop them? Also, the Koran states that if more than one wive would cause trouble or unease than the man should stay with just one wife. It's not like polygamy is compulsory.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 22:19:53
Okay, maybe not spiritual, but 8/10 posts I've read (in this thread) have held views condemning organized religion and God.
And 10/10 posts of yours are coming off as condemning science and other religions.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 22:19:53
I don't have a liberal mind because I don't agree with the postmodern view of 'all religions are equal, and all gods can save you'.
That is not at all what a liberal mind is about. It's not about saying all religions will save you, a liberal mind is just about accepting people for who they are no matter what their belief system or lifestyle. Being open minded and caring is what constitutes a liberal mind.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 22:19:53Same with gays. I got the forums in an uproar a while back when I said I hated gays. I don't hate them I hate their lifestyle.
Someones lifestyle is a part of who they are, so to me, it just appears you hate them.

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sat 28/04/2007 22:19:53
I don't care about 'getting it right', because I'll never believe that perverted theology anyways. The reason that so many of you believe in evolution is not because of your own free thought, it's because it was taught in schools. You say that I'm not thinking on my own, just because I was born in a Christian nation, but the same can be said of you and evolution.
See my above mention of your posts condemning. I grew up a christian, learning science and religion. I was taught religion more than science, but I see more truth in science. And you come off as amazingly naive with this remark.

That's all I have to say for now really, everything else I'm thinking, others have summed up.

Steel Drummer

#392
Meowster (and others who think that evangelizing to others is wrong): How can you say that you find it offensive to tell others about God and Jesus, yet you don't mind offending Christians with your "Fuck God" and your "go to hell, Jesus" and your "I don't need Jesus' forgiveness. He didn't die for me. Damn him" nonsense. But when I share my views with you, you act like I'm committing murder. (Most of you probably think that murdering someone isn't that bad, either, just like you think polygamy isn't bad)

I don't really care what you think about my religious views because I'm probably never going to agree with any of you on any religious/social issues. I don't think there's a single person who has posted in this thread that would agree with me about my views on heaven and hell. Or homosexuality.

Quote from: Meowster
They ate the flesh of women and children? What? Literally?
No, I was using a metaphor. ::) Of course they did!

Quote from: Cameron
You say that as if it's intended to be shocking. To me it's not shocking, I personally am not interested in polygamy, but if someone is in love with more than one person and they can find a working relationship between the 3 people involved (or more) than why stop them? Also, the Koran states that if more than one wive would cause trouble or unease than the man should stay with just one wife. It's not like polygamy is compulsory.
What's shocking to me is how loose everyone's morals are. Premarital sex is one thing, but now you people are saying polygamy is okay? I shudder to think what would happen if you entered into politics...  :P
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Meowster

Was that double-sarcasm?

Did they eat human meat?

PS don't paint everyone with the same brush. I didn't say polygamy is ok. Nobody else did. Just one person.

And he didn't say he was interested in it. He said if other people want to do it and they're okay with it, then what business is it of his? Can you not see the sense in what he says?

Did they cook the meat first or did they eat them raw?

[Cameron]

For fucks sake SD, pardon the swearing but you are amazingly frustrating. You come of as so naive, and there is quite a "holier than thou" attitude coming off of you (quite appropriate phrase that). You've chosen your belief and you look down on everyone else posting in this thread as backwards fools that believe in "mumbo-jumbo." Sure we might share the same beliefs, but most of the people here have been willing to discuss what they believe, where as you just shut yourself off and leave a bad impression of what religious people are like. And you're saying my morals are loose? Because my morals allow for people that are in love to live happy lives? You astound me! Christianity is meant to show a message of love? Is this only a conditional message?

EDIT: And the crusades arent the only holy wars. Anyone remember this little war we're having called Iraq: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article317805.ece

Meowster

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sun 29/04/2007 02:09:14
Meowster (and others who think that evangelizing to others is wrong): How can you say that you find it offensive to tell others about God and Jesus, yet you don't mind offending Christians with your "Fuck God" and your "go to hell, Jesus" and your "I don't need Jesus' forgiveness. He didn't die for me. Damn him" nonsense. But when I share my views with you, you act like I'm committing murder. (Most of you probably think that murdering someone isn't that bad, either, just like you think polygamy isn't bad)

You're being just as strong with your views as everyone else is with theirs. Don't be silly.

Tuomas

No seriously, I can't possibly figure out why on earth, once this thread got off topic, into religion, for some reason, it suddenly got very very very extremely utterly boring and no longer worth reading and it still gained 4 pages over a night! It's very unusual. well I hope you get something out of it. I won't, and most probably nor will anyone.

Meowster

Quote from: Steel Drummer on Sun 29/04/2007 02:09:14
What's shocking to me is how loose everyone's morals are. Premarital sex is one thing, but now you people are saying polygamy is okay? I shudder to think what would happen if you entered into politics...  :P

Sorry, the way you say "premarital sex is one thing".... can you tell me what you think is morally wrong about pre-marital sex?

QuoteNo seriously, I can't possibly figure out why on earth, once this thread got off topic, into religion, for some reason, it suddenly got very very very extremely utterly boring and no longer worth reading and it still gained 4 pages over a night! It's very unusual. well I hope you get something out of it. I won't, and most probably nor will anyone.

Some people clearly are still getting somethign out of it, if you're not then you shouldn't really post just to let everybody else know you're not interested.

Steel Drummer

#398
You're twisting what I said. People aren't going to happy together if they're living with more than one wife. The wife, especially, wouldn't be happy. A marriage is supposed to be between one man and one woman. Not three men and one woman, or one man and 6 women.

So you're saying I'm naive because I believe in Christ, and I'm not swearing my head off in every post? I don't think I'm holier than anyone else- everyone sins, everyone is made in the image of God, everyone should be treated equally. I don't care how many people I offend- I'll say it fifty times if I have to- Jesus Christ is the only way to receive eternal life! 

Quote from: Meowster
Sorry, the way you say "premarital sex is one thing".... can you tell me what you think is morally wrong about pre-marital sex?

Well, the Bible says it's wrong to do. But if you're like most people who don't follow the Bible:
It can give you STDs, it could get you pregnant- having sex is like sharing your body with someone else, and if you don't marry the person you're having sex with, then the true purpose of sex is gone. Having sex after marriage is more joyful.

And, for the last time- they ate human flesh!
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[Cameron]

... The true purpose of sex is not gone if you're not marrying that person. You're sharing yourself with a person you love, in the course of your life you can love more than one person, and sex with them will be just as special. And if you wait for sex til after marriage it wont be more joyful, it'll most likely be dissapointing and painful. There are precautions for STDs. The fact that I enjoy pre-marital sex does not mean I'm some kind of slutty guy that runs around having sex with everyone and everything. People can be happy together, have you studied any cases of polygamy? I haven't but I'm sure there will be cases where people are happy, and there will be some that aren't. But why put a stop to those that work? And you're also ruling out gay and lesbian marriages, which I think should also be allowed. You're saying love between anything other than one man and one woman is impossible, I think you're horribly wrong on this point. Swearing does not make me naive, and I apolagise for that swearing, but you frustrate me. Everyone is made in the image of god. God sins? God can be gay, lesbian, bi-sexual? If everyone is a part of his image than there must be those sides to god. God planned out everyones lives according to your religion, so he planned gays. So this "perversion" is god's will.

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