Ideal age/Now mostly about Religion and Religious Upbringing

[Meowster]

Having sex after marriage is not more joyful, necessarily. There's absolutely no reason to believe it would be.

As for STDs, pregnancy etc... you can still get pregnant or catch an STD from having sex with somebody AFTER marriage.

There is a difference between having pre-marital sex in loving, trusting, long-term relationships, and being slutty/sleeping around. I do believe that you should only have sex with somebody you're serious about, and that you know and trust and are in love with. That's something I've always believed, and it was contrary to the beliefs of other people my age when I was growing up. I was considered a "late starter" and even teased about the fact I didn't want to have sex with guys when I was in school or college.

The fact is, I'm still with the person I lost my virginity to. We've been together for two years now and live together, have long-term commitments such as buying cats and a house together... he's the love of my life. I don't have STDs, neither does he. He has been with other women before he was with me, he doesn't have any STDs. We use condoms, and I've never been pregnant, but we've agreed that if I ever did become pregnant than we'd keep the child. But we're still very careful nonetheless as we don't want to be parents yet (I'm way too young for that...!)

There's nothing morally wrong or loose about that, is there? I mean, I am experiencing the most beautiful and loving and caring relationship I've ever known, it means a lot to me. I don't know what is morally wrong about it. Maybe you can explain why my relationship is a sin, and a bad thing?

Also, why did they EAT the humans?

[Meowster]

Christians, man. Should all be raped in the face repeatedly with spiky knuckledusters for the rest of eternity.

Not nice to hear someone say that, is it.

[voh]

(Most of you probably think that murdering someone isn't that bad, either, just like you think polygamy isn't bad)

That is an entirely offensive assumption. So I'm going to respond in the only way possible - hey, some priests rape choir boys - that must mean all Christians think that's okay!

I don't really care what you think about my religious views because I'm probably never going to agree with any of you on any religious/social issues. I don't think there's a single person who has posted in this thread that would agree with me about my views on heaven and hell. Or homosexuality.

I'll even up the ante on that. I'm entirely okay with homosexuality, contraceptives, abortion, euthanasia and definitely with premarital sex. Does that mean you should agree with me? No!

Does that mean you get to tell me I'm a low-life because I don't agree with you? Yes!

Do I have to care and/or agree with that, or even give it a second though (therefore invalidating your calling me a low-life for thinking those aforementioned things are acceptable things)? Hell no!

You thinking and saying something is different from other people caring about what you're saying and/or thinking. Or on a less harsh level, which is what's going on in here, it means that people might not want to agree with you. Obviously we're trying to have a debate here, but you have said many things that just make me go "ARGH" and frustrate me, symbolizing through the internet that which I dislike severely about religious people. I quote.

So if you have faith without good deeds, you're not really pleasing God as mush as you should. If you have good deeds without faith, you're not going anywhere special in the afterlife.

You're saying 'you', which translates into 'us', because obviously we're not down with faith in God.

Jesus died for everyone, whether you wanted Him to or not.

I didn't want him to, and I didn't want him not to. I am indifferent to the matter, and therefore feel no need to indulge him.

One thing that bugs me the most about people (especially on these forums) is not that they follow a different faith than I do- it's when they say that there's not a god of any kind, and they reject any sort of faith- bashing it constantly.

I find it awkward that it angers you. We are staunch disbelievers (well, most of us, seemingly) and yet we aren't getting angry at you for saying evolution doesn't exist, or that God most definitely exists and that we owe Jesus because he did something we didn't ask for. We're interested in debating, but you then start with, and I quote.

That is incredibly true. It only proves that there is a god, because those who preach Him get bashed, but those who reject Him don't.

Nazis get bashed, so Hitler was right?

Yes, and I'm being outnumbered by those who believe in evolution mumbo-jumbo.

You're the one with the God mumbo-jumbo, so why shouldn't we get a crack?

I have never heard any of you disprove evolution, or humanism, or scientology, and whatever else there is that doesn't follow a god.

I don't have to disprove scientology because it's a crock of shit. Humanism is a philosophical means of finding right and wrong through rationalism, which is pretty much what we're doing, so why disprove something which we agree with? Same for evolution.

Why can't we all worship one God?

Because some of us don't want to believe in any god at all.

I don't care about 'getting it right', because I'll never believe that perverted theology anyways.

Perverted? Theology? I'll just leave the perverted as it is (read what I said about your comment on lugubriously atheistic people below) and comment on theology. Evolution isn't a theology. It's a well-supported scientific theory. It has proof. It does not necessarily clash with God. If God is so all-powerful, why couldn't he have orchestrated evolution to work the way it did? Maybe the bible's story of creation was symbolical. Who knows, nobody was there when God created it - 'we' came after.

But you never actually explained what you and your lugubriously atheistic colleagues believe about death.

Lugubriously atheistic? Tone down the judgment, my friend, Jesus doesn't like it when you judge people. "Do not judge", Matt. 7:1, unless I've translated that wrong (from Dutch).

The majority of people in this forum hate god, religion and anything spiritual.

*sigh* Yes, you're entirely right. Most of us hate God. If we ever see him we'll kick him in the shin. No, wait, that's not true. If I ever see God I'll be the first to admit I was wrong, but I just don't see that happening. You hate atheists, we don't hate theists.

All you have proven is that you're a religious zealot who canNOT accept the fact that others believe differently (be it Allah, JHWH, nothing, the flying spaghetti monster or Tyr, god of Tuesdayism) yet is pissed off that others come across to him as not being accepting of his belief.

You, kind sir, are a hypocrit. I'm not saying you shouldn't believe. I'm saying that you need to believe whatever you want to believe, as it's not in any way going to encroach on my way of life. I am a proud atheist, with a good job and a good study underway, art, love, family and friends all around, and generally having a ball in this lifetime.

And if not believing in your god makes you think I'm a bad person, and if thinking many of the things I've said in this specific post are, imho, correct or at least have a point makes you think I'm a bad person?

Then by Tyr, let me be bad.

EDIT: Thank you [cameron], for raising a good point. I am also all in favour of allowing same-sex marriages.

[Becky]

As long as it's between consenting adult humans who are aware of the various risks involved I don't see why it's anyone's business.  It's not my kink, but hey, if they're happy.

The true purpose of sex is to pass on our genes and make lots of babies.  It also plays a large part in forming emotional bonds.  It's also fun.

Plus the scary-things of unwanted pregnancy and STDs don't go away when you sign a piece of paper.

[Steel Drummer]

... The true purpose of sex is not gone if you're not marrying that person. You're sharing yourself with a person you love, in the course of your life you can love more than one person, and sex with them will be just as special. And if you wait for sex til after marriage it wont be more joyful, it'll most likely be dissapointing and painful. There are precautions for STDs. The fact that I enjoy pre-marital sex does not mean I'm some kind of slutty guy that runs around having sex with everyone and everything. People can be happy together, have you studied any cases of polygamy? I haven't but I'm sure there will be cases where people are happy, and there will be some that aren't. But why put a stop to those that work? And you're also ruling out gay and lesbian marriages, which I think should also be allowed. You're saying love between anything other than one man and one woman is impossible, I think you're horribly wrong on this point. Swearing does not make me naive, and I apolagise for that swearing, but you frustrate me. Everyone is made in the image of god. God sins? God can be gay, lesbian, bi-sexual? If everyone is a part of his image than there must be those sides to god. God planned out everyones lives according to your religion, so he planned gays. So this "perversion" is god's will.

God didn't plan those people to be the way they are. Their sexuality is by choice. They choose to have surgery to change sexes. I'm tired of hearing Christian bashing, and religion bashing, and an overall contempt for God and other gods, so why not just get back to topic, here. I already said this once before, but maybe you'll listen if I say it again. I, for one, won't participate in this thread until the topic changes, and hopefully that will keep the argument down (everyone was arguing against me, if I remember correctly). I'm not a hypocrite, and as I've said many, many, many, many times before, I don't hate the person, I hate the religion. I accept the fact that others believe differently, I'm trying to change the fact, if you catch my drift.

If Christianity is true, and Jesus really is the only way, then when I die, I'll be up in the clouds mocking you all.

One last thing: If condemning people's beliefs is wrong, then I guess that condemning Hitler is wrong?

Big up de positive vibrations, yo.

[voh]

If you don't hate the people, but the religion, and since atheism technically is the lack of religion, you surely love atheists as your brothers?

[[Cameron]]

Thats SUCH a christian tone to be taking. Sitting up above us mocking us all. Doesn't Christianity teach you to be accepting of others? A religion is part of who someone is, so yes, you do hate them. You hate an integral part of them. Sexuality is not a choice, you don't just wake up and think "hmm... you know what? I think I'll be gay," it's just something that you are. It is a part of who you are. So, you do hate them as well.
Christianity is meant to spread a message of love, so far you've stated you hate two large portions of the world, and you also want to stop love between gays and polygamist.
A good solid day of god's work is done.

Edit: Steel, we aren't condeming. You are. You've condemned every religion, different sexualities and lifestyles.

[Captain Lexington]

Then by Tyr, let me be bad.

voh, that sentence, paired with that kickass Dick van Dyke in your sig, make you my bestest friend. 


Cameron: I would like to take issue with you saying that sexuality and theology (partially) make up who you are. I'd say that my being straight and an atheist have little bearing on my personality or my character, the two most defining things of 'who I am.' For instance, if I were gay, I think Independence Day and Jurassic Park would still be my favorite movies, and I'd still love listening to George Thorogood. If I were gay, I doubt I'd suddenly become a stoner or a sk8er boi or a Hollister-wearing prep. And I think being an atheist takes the entire 'religion' chunk of 'who you are' and leaves it empty, as opposed to being different.

Certainly, these things are interesting statistical elements, and I suppose technically sort of make you who you are, but they are hardly defining.

[Steel Drummer]

The Bible says that the gay lifestyle is wrong. Even if you don't follow the Bible, it doesn't seem natural- I mean, two men sleeping together?

[Dorcan]

I love how christian people have a hard time accepting that atheists lead happy lives. My absolute favourite though was being accused of 'not being fun' because I don't believe in gods.

Heh. Not easy to admit that there could be people in the outside world who are actually much happier than you, when you know they don't need to carry the burden which has been inflicted to you (or you inflicted yourself), a burden made of guilt, fears, misplaced feeling of responsibility, imposed rituals, forced abstinence, frustrations, masochism (heroism...),  a burden you want to believe is absolutely essential for your future happiness in this world (and for everyone else too)

It is more reassuring and resting for the mind to see those people as poor beings trying so hard to seem happy when they obviously are not, looking for happiness in all the wrong and easy ways (of pleasures essentially)... And to think your burden simply is a test which will prove your loyalty to God.

I mean, look at Job.

God didn't plan those people to be the way they are. [...] Even if you don't follow the Bible, it doesn't seem natural- I mean, two men sleeping together?

Yeah, he had certainly not envisaged it. What a surprise it must have been for him.

If Christianity is true, and Jesus really is the only way, then when I die, I'll be up in the clouds mocking you all.
Big up de positive vibrations, yo.

Certainly Jesus would approve and mock us all, while standing at your side.



edit : just wanted to point out the story Meowster used to illustrate one of her previous post in this topic, here, which illustrate what we could call "the job syndrom". Depressing story, as she said.

[[Cameron]]

Orator: I wasnt stating they would change you entirely, I just mean that they are a part of you. It's like saying blonde hair is wrong and you hate it. That hair color doesn't define the person, but you still hate a part of who they are.
Steel Drummer: It' doesn't seem unnatural. If people are in love, who cares what sex they are. I'm bi-sexual, so you're saying that a part of me is wrong and you hate me. It's not a choice I made. It's who I am. What's more natural than a human being?

[Steel Drummer]

I'm fine with the fact you're bisexual. I don't hate you.

And Cameron, blonde hair does define the person. Blondes (females) are stupid bimbos.

[Captain Lexington]

SD--While I am certainly...hmm...how shall I say...disgusted with the thought of putting my penis into...well, where it goes in that sort of scenario, I can say I'm not against any two people doing whatever they want together.

[Cameron]--Gotcha. 


(But of course, everyone knows blonds are stupid.   )

Damn, SD beat me to the punch!

[Fee]

SD

I want people to have the RIGHT to do what they want within reason.
If 2 guys want to have sex, thats their decision, not "Gods", not some Church.

I believe people should be free to do what they want, as long as they arent harming other people.
I believe people should be abel to believe what they want, as long as they arent trying to force their beliefs on others.

This is the basis for law in any free society, unfortunatly some Governments cant stay out of other people business, and some laws restrict your freedom, but atleast they try and make a reson for it. Unlike the Church who expect people to live a certian way because some Non-Existant being said so, or some guy wrote about it 1800 years ago in a different society and time.

I know your going to tell me God Does exist.. to that i say PROVE it. There isnt even any real proof of a Historical Jesus, so good luck proving the existance of God.

[Blackthorne]

Did someone say having sex after marriage is more joyful??

Not according to my grandfather.  There's a reason his face droops and he has massive forearms.


Bt

[LUniqueDan]

Did someone say having sex after marriage is more joyful??

Not according to my grandfather.  There's a reason his face droops and he has massive forearms.

S***, I think we're relative...

[Vince Twelve]

God didn't plan those people to be the way they are. Their sexuality is by choice. They choose to have surgery to change sexes.

I'm sorry, Yodaman, this is simply wrong.  And quite uninformed.  Gay people didn't just wake up one day in their teens and think, "Hey, I think today, I'll try sticking my penis in another guy's butt."  There is a legitimate nature vs. nurture argument that can be had concerning homosexuality, but there is no gay-is-a-choice vs. gay-is-who-you-are argument.  Gay people have feelings -- real, romantic, sexual feelings -- for people of their same sex and don't have any feelings of the kind for people of the opposite sex (of, if bi-sexual, they have feelings for both sexes).  There was no choice involved for them, and no matter how many heterosexual people tell you otherwise, it's not going to change that fact.

As for gay people choosing to have surgery to change sexes... That was one of the most ridiculous statements in the context that you wrote it.  Yes, some people choose to undergo sexual changes, but they were gay (those that even are gay), not by their own choice, long before deciding to undergo the surgery.  And the vast majority of gay people would never even consider such a procedure.  You... just... wow.  Do me a favor and don't say anything that ridiculous again.

So, if god hates gay people, and will send every one of them to hell, then god is a real ass hole.  He's condemning people that he created to eternal suffering for something that they had no choice over.

Not to mention the suffering that many gay people endure for their entire lives thanks to "good" Christians like yourself making them ashamed of themselves and even hate themselves for the feelings that they have no control over.  You push them to the sidelines of society, insult them without shame, and even go so far as to fight to put laws in place that take away their right to pursue happiness, one of their "god-given" rights.  Shame on you for causing such hate and for placing the blame for doing so on your god, rather than realizing that the real hate lies inside you.

Love the sinner, hate the sin is something you say a lot, Yoda.  But your words and actions are not words and actions that I could believe anyone would say towards someone that they love.  The fact is, you hate the sinner too, and just saying otherwise can't hide that fact.

The Bible says that the gay lifestyle is wrong. Even if you don't follow the Bible, it doesn't seem natural- I mean, two men sleeping together?

I would challenge you to find a single argument against homosexuality that doesn't loop back to "because the bible said so."

I don't think that having sex with a really ugly or fat woman seems natural, does that mean that god hates fatty-lovers too?

[Nikolas]

What on Earth is this about marriage and stuff huh?

I already told you: I got married, so to stop having more children but the plan failed and I had one! Now I'm considering a divorce or something, just to stop my wife bearing more children, but I have hunch that the problem is the.... unprotected SEX![/u]! WOW! Who said that?

For one last time yoda:

You didn't see me condemn anything you believe. I don't care about your beliefs tbh. Furthermore I have never swore against god/ christ/etc and nobody else in this thread I believe... Now the part that some people decide to believe that Jesus did not die to save them is THEIR business alone and have every right!

Honestly, just learn a few things, grow up, mature, and have a printed version of this thread to see how you feel after a few years. And this has nothing to do with age at all! I do this all the time and look back at threads I had debates about and see how stupid I've been (or right at some points and wronged etc). Try that, really!

You just don't know what to keep and what not!

* You think that god exists which is fine, and that paradise and hell exist, ok, and that sin exists and so on, ok.
* Why do you bother if someone is shagging 3 girls or 2 boys? what is your problem exactly?
* what do you care that I had sex before I married my wife? What is this problem?

The above are not issues that are danger to society. On the contrary a rape or paedofily is something that IS a danger and IS morally wrong. but the 1st part is that counts, otherwise morality cannot be defiened (and I would definately be morally condemned already).

So you may argue all you want, but a gay couple is not a danger in society, while a rapist is. This is why people distinguish between those two (for example).

But really, stand back, read the whole thread at some later point and see what you've written... And what the other members have written... also thank you for answering me all the way (although by some incredible sight, you've chosen to bypass some of my points, but either way...)

[Hammerite]

People, especially Steel Drummer, need to be able to differentiate in a religion, what is the spirituality of it and what was simply fabricated by someone in the Middle Ages to keep everyone nice and controlled.

[Becky]

The Bible says that the gay lifestyle is wrong. Even if you don't follow the Bible, it doesn't seem natural- I mean, two men sleeping together?

Oh, and do you know what else is unnatural?  Using the internet, shaving, having pets, listening to music, keeping the time with a watch. 

The natural world does none of those things, yet there are plenty of examples of homosexuality in the animal kingdom. 

Anyway, I firmly stand by my belief that:

As long as it's between consenting adult humans who are aware of the various risks involved I don't see why it's anyone's business.