Ideal age/Now mostly about Religion and Religious Upbringing

Started by Helm, Mon 16/04/2007 21:47:35

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Mr Flibble

Quote from: Hammerite on Sun 29/04/2007 10:06:42
People, especially Steel Drummer, need to be able to differentiate in a religion, what is the spirituality of it and what was simply fabricated by someone in the Middle Ages to keep everyone nice and controlled.


Seconded.
Ah! There is no emoticon for what I'm feeling!

Helm

Really the issue with this thread right now is all of YOU guys. Not Steel Drummer. Steel Drummer is like 14, uninformed, extremely opinionated and very very easy to have his opinions argued for the drivel they are.

And what do you all do? Instead of ignoring him and his constant stream of idiocy, you put on your professor glasses and educate a child on matters of religion, sexuality, and ethics. For 7 pages. Nice going boring up the thread, everybody. I'm glad to read it.
WINTERKILL

Andail

Yeah, I was gonna jump into this debate with some hardcore heathen viewpoints as soon as someone worth debating showed up.
But it was only Steeldrummer all the way....so now I almost feel more inclined to back Steeldrummer up just for the heck of it.

evenwolf

The last evolution thread featured me & I was being pretty hardheaded with my anti-religion.   It was important for me at the time because it helped me flesh out my own opinion.  I'm still battling inside with the contradictions religion infused within me.  Some of you might feel the same way.

But tag teaming Steel Drummer shouldn't be encouraged.  I see that now.

I probably would have rejected atheism if I had ever been attacked by atheists.   As a matter of fact, I had no contact with any atheists (so far as I knew) until I got to college.   This helped me because the hypocrisies I grew up with solidified the discoveries I made throughout college.  This method is pretty important for anyone who grew up with religion.  "Personal deprogramming."   Think of religion as a band you used to like.   Say you used to be the biggest Dave Matthews fan... but now you've moved on.   A friend of yours asks you "hey doesn't Dave Matthews Suck!??!"   You agree with him but secretly deep down a part of you finds his horrifying voice appealing.


colossal:  praying to God in order to fly.   I once wrote a letter to Jesus and buried it outside in the snow.  The next day I was horrified to see that the letter hadn't been delivered.  The paper was soggy and the ink trails still contained my message, "dear jesus. please give me a puppy."
"I drink a thousand shipwrecks.'"

Vince Twelve

You're right Helm.  What is the age nowadays when it's proper to stop ignoring someone and start un-stupiding them before they do someone else harm?

Helm

I'd say the exact second their opinions show the least shred of continuity and an active mind behind them instead of being regurgitations from their church, thrown together with little thought and ment to UPSET PEOPLE.

You're just feeding a troll. You're not saving yodaman.
WINTERKILL

Nikolas

Quote from: Helm on Sun 29/04/2007 13:34:49
You're just feeding a troll. You're not saving yodaman.
Of course, the first applies fully in this case! It's pretty obvious and I am quite guilty of it as well. (note that it was also Babar in the discussion .

But about the 2nd. If anyone is able to enter a religion and believe so strong, and have such strong thoughts at the age of 14, he sure is ready to hear the other side as well. while the Internet or any forum is not in the same position as parents/family/school, if those 3 can influence a kid, then why can't anyone try and influence them the other way around, at any age, and especially at the age of 14, where his mind is getting, or already is, ready to rebel...

Helm

Well he'll rebel. Against us because nowdays it's cooler to be a theist on the 'net than secular.

I am all for helping someone see other points of view the exact second he says he's willing to listen. Not when they say 'I am not interested in researching something I condemn'.

Why can't this thread be about religious upbringing and not telling yodaman how stupid he's being?
WINTERKILL

Becky

In an attempt to move back on track:

My own personal religious upbringing has been fairly secular.  Both my parents were pretty adamant that they would love me no matter what religious path I took, and tried their hardest to impose no doctine on me.  Of course I was exposed to the entrenched Christianity that is part of British culture and history, through prayers in primary school to attending church services for the harvest festival due to my involvement with the Brownies when I was young.  I never really thought much about religion, or what it meant to me until I reached secondary school age, where religious education classes took a more diverse approach, I remember spending a year studying Islam and researching creation myths and the tennets of other religions.  Whilst I agree in principle with many of the morals that these religions support, the whole idea of a creator seemed fairly remote to me and through my interest in science I came to the conclusions that the belief in a god wasn't necessary to find the world fascinating and complex and wonderful to live in.  I guess you could say I'm an atheist by default, though interacting with those who hold religious beliefs and trying to understand their reasoning seems to baffle me and cement the lack of belief.

I can understand the reasoning behind why my parents (particularly my dad) wanted me to have a secular upbringing.  My great-grandparents on my dad's side were Jews that came over to England just before/after WW2.  Their son, my grandfather, converted to Christianity, married my grandmother and went on "spiritual journeys" around the world during the '60's, whilst my dad and his siblings were growing up.  They did all sorts of fun things like trying to summon out the devils from the eyes of my cousin who suffers from airborne allergies, and took in homeless people off the streets and filled their house with them.  Because of the interference of religion in my dad's childhood, separating him from his parents and creating conflict between his siblings and his parents, he was pretty adamant in not letting such things happen to his own kids.


Meowster

QuoteGod didn't plan those people to be the way they are....
If Christianity is true, and Jesus really is the only way, then when I die, I'll be up in the clouds mocking you all.

If god didn't plan them, then he's not all powerful. Also, sitting up in the clouds mocking people who are burning for eternity.... not very nice. That immediately makes you a worse person than me in that you would enjoy seeing many other people suffering for the rest of existence, while you live it up in luxury. I would never, ever condone such a thing.

Anyway,

We can change this thread a bit to be about  religious upbringing because I'm certainly curious to hear about other peoples religious upbringing... particularly steel drummers at this point :D


My parents never spoke about god. They were agnostic, but just never ever put their views of religion upon me... not on purpose, just because it never occured to them. I learned about religion through school.

I always took it to be a kind of silly story that OTHER people believed in, I guess because I'd grown up without having to believe that a magician magicked up the entire planet, so when I DID learn about it and had a little bit of a mind of my own, I chose to reject it based on so, so many ridiculous things about the whole story.

I did, in primary school, get bullied for not believing in god and told I'd go to hell etc. Once, the priest (who used to visit the school every week) asked me to sit on his lap and I said no. He tried to coax me on and said, "Ah come on, don't be shy!" but I refused because he was a strange old man and it was embarrassing to sit on his lap in front of the whole class, because he always used to rub peoples faces and hair and stuff. Afterwards, the people in my class told me I'd go to hell for being disrespectful. My parents told the school that I wasn't to EVER be present in the room with that priest again and that when he visited, I should go to the school library. My teacher agreed, but every time the priest visited from then on, she'd still keep me in the room...

My parents took me out of that school and home educated me until secondary school. Incidentally, a huge number of children in my primary school were sexually abused by the local priest. where I used to live is one of the most prevalent areas of Ireland for child sexual abuse by the clergy.

In secondary school however, I guess people were a bit grown up, and it was a different part of Ireland too... so they were a lot more relaxed about their view of god. IE he's just a loving parent who sits in heaven and waits for all his children to come to him so he can party with them. They also believed in evolution, and said that they can't be sure exactly how god created the earth and when he did it, but they believe he's there. Surprising for a bunch of Catholic people, but it was the nicest concept of god I've ever known. They also all went to church of their own accord on Sundays, so it wasn't like they were only half-heartedly believing in him... it was really just what they believed a good god to be like.

FTw.

Helm

Thanks you two, I hope we hear more stories instead of trying to pick apart the feces of a child for the duration of this thread.
WINTERKILL

Vince Twelve

#431
It's definitely true that we've already got fifty or so threads exactly like the kind of thread this was becoming.  I still hope that Yoda can read the posts directed at him with something other than immediate dismissal.  I don't think he was posting just to be a troll. [EDIT] Though responding to him will likely have just as much effect as responding to a troll.  Still, if the only harm in trying is making a thread boring...[/EDIT]

I was raised and baptized Methodist.  I asked a lot of questions when I was a kid.  I was nine when I told my parents that I just didn't understand why god would be so mean to us.  My family changed to Unitarian and later to the Unity Church.  We had a gay pastor which was pretty cool.  He was about the nicest guy I've ever met.  I still never could make the idea of god work within my personal belief system, and so as soon as I had the ability to decide for myself whether or not to go to church or not, I told my parents that I wasn't going to go any more.  I was in highschool.  Maybe 16ish...

Since then, I've been atheist.  The only time I involve myself in religious discussions is when I start to hear ignorant comments about homosexuality, which is a topic that has always pushed my buttons.  I have a lot of gay friends, and none of them has done anything to deserve the kind of hate and pain that they've all experienced at some points in their lives.

Now, I've married into a culture that has polytheistic practices, and I willingly take part in them.  I regularly pray to ancestors, fire gods, home gods, and the gods of the north, south, east, and west.  It's quite interesting to see the people here going practicing a religion that is about respect, and doesn't involve converting anyone or damning anyone to eternal pain.  And every time a jehovah's witness knocks on my door here, it's jarring to be ripped out of the zen that I've worked myself into.

The first time this happened, I was shopping and this Japanese woman came up to me and asked me in Japanese if I spoke English.  I said that I did, so she switched to English and introduced herself as a Jehovah's witness and handed me an English brochure that she "happened" to be carrying around.  I stood there open mouthed, surprised that this was happening in Japan.  She noticed my incredulous look and said, ominously, "Yeah... We're everywhere."

Helm

if the only harm is making a thread boring:

Yes that is the only harm. Go ahead if you think it's worth it to dictate ethics and religion to an unwilling insulting 14-year-old on the internet. He needs you to be his father. I can't do anything about it.


I am interested in what you say about a religion of respect. Are you talking about some japanese religion? Most religions I know make a point out of segregating the non-believers from the believers and treating the former with disdain... to say the least. What's the religion's specifics?
WINTERKILL

Raggit

Quote from: Helm on Sun 29/04/2007 14:02:09
Thanks you two, I hope we hear more stories instead of trying to pick apart the feces of a child for the duration of this thread.

Well put!


There are times when I resent the way I was raised in a church and with the teachings that we're right, they're wrong.  But I think it has ultimately done me some good in teaching me to think for myself and take control.

I can't help but feel that my atheism has drawn lines in the sand between me and everybody I know.  (Except for a few who think like I do.)  Nobody really shuns me, but I know that they view me differently now, as not one of them, and as somebody who is in desperate need of saving.  

And what must they think of my dreams to move to California and be a film score composer!  Such worldy evils!

All in all, I'm in kind of a scary place where I'm going to be own my own sooner than later, and I'm leaving behind everything I was taught that was for my own safety and happiness, as in being told that if I'm ever scared or confused I should just talk to Jesus and he'll guide me through whatever is going on.  Now I actually have to work things out logically in my head instead of breathing prayers.  It's all good, though.   :)
--- BARACK OBAMA '08 ---
www.barackobama.com

Steel Drummer

#434
Quote from: Vince Twelve
I would challenge you to find a single argument against homosexuality that doesn't loop back to "because the bible said so."

It's a sick, perverted lifestyle where two men stick stuff up each other's asses and get STDs. That's the main reason why AIDS is spreading (and because of premarital sex/multiple partners).   

In the Bible, the two cities of Sodom and Gomorrah practiced sexually perverted acts like these, and they were burned down by God because the people wouldn't repent. A lot of countries have now legalized gay marriage. Don't you think something like that could happen again?

You're probably dismissing this as "Steel Drummer's bigoted religious point of view", or else getting offended I'd say such a thing.

Well, I have a modern day example of an incident like this.

All of you probably remember Hurricane Katrina. A week before the hurricane hit New Orleans, the city was planning a 'gay pride week', sort of tourist attraction event. Then the hurricane struck. Well, you know the rest of the story.


I don't see why all of you are so adamant on arguing with me. You've heard my views, you've dismissed them, you've seen that I won't change my views, and now you're supposed to let it go and get on with your lives, and off of this subject. I must say I agree with Helm to some degree (not the 14 year old part). You people should just stop trying to defend your atheism/post-modernism/liberalism, I'll stop trying to defend God/Jesus, and we'll let God and "ism's" battle it out on their own, okay? What makes you think someone is 14 if they criticize homosexuality and atheism? 

Quote from: Helm
Why can't this thread be about religious upbringing and not telling yodaman how stupid he's being?

Exactly.                                     

Quote from: Helm

I am all for helping someone see other points of view the exact second he says he's willing to listen. Not when they say 'I am not interested in researching something I condemn'. 
I see yours and everyone else's point of view. The question is, why don't you see mine? As soon as I state my opinion, you (not you specifically, just in general) say 'Fuck that', or 'Fuck God', or 'Go to hell, Christ', or 'You're just a bigoted asshole'. I haven't said anything like that about Allah, or Buddha, or whoever. I would, however say it about the various 'isms', because they don't even believe in any sort of deity. I'd be quicker to criticize a atheist than a Muslim, or a Hindu.
I'm composing the music for this game:



Raggit

The best way to get this to move on, Steel Drummer, is to take the advice that was given to your several pages back to stop posting in this thread regarding others' arguments until you've done the research and grown a little bit.   
--- BARACK OBAMA '08 ---
www.barackobama.com

Steel Drummer

And 'grown' for you, means learning to stop getting help from God and becoming an atheist- which is how you've grown.
I'm composing the music for this game:



Raggit

Well, that's how I've grown, but not how you have to grow.  Mainly, I'm just saying that you need to learn to learn a little more about the other side before you jump into debates on the internet.

So, anyway, on with the upbringing stories.

(Which means we shouldn't discuss our religious differences here anymore.  I don't need/want a god, bible and savior.  I'm happy with my life as a whole.  I respect your beliefs and rights to have them, and I'm sorry if I ever sounded like I was condeming your beliefs.)
--- BARACK OBAMA '08 ---
www.barackobama.com

Steel Drummer

Fair enough. I just don't know how many people will actually change topics.
I'm composing the music for this game:



Quintaros

Quote from: Raggit on Sun 29/04/2007 16:16:48
So, anyway, on with the upbringing stories.

I don't know for certain but I think my parents were a bit divided on how much religion to instill upon my brothers and me.  My mother was raised in a Baptist household where church was a big part of their lives. My father never talked about religion much at all.  I think he merely complied with my mother's ways in order to keep the peace.  But his indifference towards organized religion set a precedent for us.  We stopped going to church not because we stopped believing but because we would rather stay home Sunday morning and watch the Adam West Batman show.   After years of coercing us to get ready for church my mother finally threw in the towel.  We continued to say grace with dinner but not much else.  Each of us continued to dabble in prayer and attending youth groups organized by our church but independently we were each moving towards athiesm.  We never flaunted our athiesm to our mother out of respect.  I'm not sure she knows even now that we're all athiests.

Although I've rejected the bible as being the word of God, I do believe it contains some wise proverbs and interesting parables.   Exodus is a great story regardless of whether you take it as fiction or non-fiction.  Jesus is quite a noble character and speaks pearls of wisdom. 

As an adult, I simply don't require religion to get through life.  I've sometimes asked myself "What if I'm wrong?".   I hate being wrong.  Even if God welcomed me into Heaven with open arms, I'd still be upset with myself for getting it wrong my whole life. 


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